Talk:Martin Luther King Jr.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bcorr (talk | contribs) at 13:37, 14 March 2005 (Reverted edits by Manuchao to last version by Bcorr). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 13:37, 14 March 2005 by Bcorr (talk | contribs) (Reverted edits by Manuchao to last version by Bcorr)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Stuff with no headings

Is there no way to protect a page just from anonymous editing? Has it ever been tried? If so, does it make a difference? --JimWae 06:59, 2005 Feb 4 (UTC)

MLK: The Red Reverend Here's my webpage talking about Dr. King's socialist beliefs.

An event in this article is a April 4 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment).

Was the U2 song about the US Bloody Sunday or the UK one? -- The Anome

The Northern Ireland / Free Derry one...

Looking at the lyrics, it could be about either, but I have a feeling that with U2's Irish background it is likely to be the latter. -- The Anome

Plus there are numerous interviews (and some onstage hectoring) by Bono which make it perfectly clear which one they're talking about...(e.g. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/devolvedpolitics/story/0,9137,582283,00.html)

There might be some confusion stemming from the fact that their song Pride in the Name of Love was about the assassination of MLK.

Anyone know if Dr. King was named after Martin Luther? Or is it just a coincidence?

he was named after his father (known popularly in Atlanta and the Civil Rights community as "Daddy King"), who was named after Martin Luther. They're a dynasty of preachers. A minor point - I know that he is usually called 'Dr. King' in Civil Rights discourse, but in encyclopedia articles one usually drops titles after the first occurrence.--MichaelTinkler

Daddy King was actually born Michael King and his son was named after him. In 1934 Daddy King changed both his name, and that of his son, to Martin Luther after a trip to Europe

Does anyone know about his supposed plagiarism on several of his graduate papers? I have heard about this but I do not know if it's true. Either way, it would be a good thing to mention if anyone has some info on this.

Probably some more stuff on his assassination too...

--alan d

King used chunks of other people's writings in virtually all his written work (including many of his speeches). He also frequently signed his own name to things other people wrote (for him and with their consent - things like statements and minor speeches, while acting for the civil rights movement), and reused material in different times and places (lots of the stuff from I Have A Dream he had been using for yonks). It's hard to categorise all this as "plagiarism" exactly, for he tended to rewrite and mix it with original material. He just wasn't overly concerned with original authorship. I'll re-read the books i've read on this at some point and write about it in detail. That is, unless I forget. --AW

I moved MLK's opinions on anti-Zionism to here from the antisemitism page. Justification:

MLK is not an expert on the topics of Antisemitism or Zionism or whatever, and his quote is basically just rhetoric and the expression of his own opinions
MLK was an important figure in the US Civil Rights movement, yes, but that doesn't make him an "expert" -- what he said might be important because it encapsulates the opinion of a large number of people, and defines a social movement -- but MLK's opinions in themselves are no more likely to be correct than some guy next door
the putting of the quote on that page seemed to me to be mainly an appeal to authority (kind of like quoting a physicist about the existence of God, or a movie star about the morality of abortion or something like that)
if someone wants to strip out the rhetoric, and give the gem of MLKs argument on the antisemitism page, go ahead -- which would probably be "Many people, especially but not only Jews, consider anti-Zionism to be a cover for antisemitism. " (if thats not said there already).

-- SJK

There should be more about this man, other than his views on Jews. What about civil rights? --Uncle Ed

There is. 68.6.102.52 deleted most of it though. Now restored. --mav

for the record, a google search of "Baboon mouth" retrieved twelve citations. Of the twelve, the only ones that contextualize MLK refer to a single song. So, on the entire internet, there is only one reference to "Baboon mouth" and King. Therefore, "Baboon mouth" has no place in this article. Kingturtle 17:30 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Rather than remove all the "anti-King" links -- including to extreme right-wing groups, including one to the John Birch Society -- I added small quotes from each to clarify what they are about -- which was not necessarily clear from the shorter titles. Bcorr 03:36, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

--- I don't think the Zionist hoax really belongs in this enry.

Good point. I've moved it here. -- BCorr ¤ Брайен 19:44, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Views on anti-Zionism

"When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism."

Those words were spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard . However the following "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," appears to be a hoax .

".. You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews - this is God's own truth. Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind....And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe....The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'! ...Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews - make no mistake about it."

I've finally removed these -- they don't really seem appropriate in that they go beyond a reasonable balance:

External links critical of Martin Luther King

BCorr|Брайен 00:46, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

• Michael Luther King, Jr.?

These seem like reputable sources to confirm what I have stated about Martin Luther King's birthname.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/martinluther/who_said.html
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/mlking.asp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/king_martin_luther.shtml

Hi Darrien -- the Snopes page you listed has the following quote from MLK's father:

I had been known as Michael Luther King or "Mike" up until I was 22 . . . when one day my father, James Albert King, told me: 'You aren't named Mike or Michael either. Your name is Martin Luther King. Your mother just called you Mike for short.' I was elated to know that I had really been named for the great leader of the Protestant Reformation, but there was no way of knowing if papa had made a mistake after all. Neither of my parents could read or write and they kept no record of Negro births in our backwoods county . . . I gladly accepted Martin Luther King as my real name and when M.L. was born, I proudly named him Martin Luther King, Jr. But it was not until 1934, when I was seeking my first passport . . . that I found out that Dr. Johnson, who delivered M.L., had listed him in the city records as Michael Luther King, Jr., because he thought that was my real name.

To me, this is not enough to say that he was born Michael King. Snopes is usually quite definitive in its statements, and in this case they basically say that they don't know. And the BBC article clearly confuses MLK with his father. So for me this still falls into the "urban legend" category. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 04:11, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

RE: Name change not being an urban myth: As far as reputable sources for King's original name being Michael King Jr. see the Autobiography of Martin Luther King edited by Carson Clayborne (who edits the King papers so he should have some idea what he's talking about!), http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/about_king/encyclopedia/King_Sr_Martin_Luther_King.htm also by Carson and http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-1009 written by John Kirk, a British Civil Rights historian--138.251.122.58 17:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do you think the Nobel Prize people got it right?
- http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureates/1964/king-bio.html
--JimWae 07:47, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

No, I don't think they did. Read the snopes article, which quotes from his father at length. His father was originally named Michael, which was later changed to Martin. Due to a paperwork slip-up, some of his birth records used "Michael", but that was not his parents' intention, nor was he ever known by the name. RadicalSubversiv E 08:25, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

but that was how his birth was registered. By ignoring (& repeatedly deleting) this in the article you open yourself up to a charge of bias. If you try to hide it, it's like you think it's a big deal--JimWae 08:29, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

I've just added a note explaining the situation. Also, I don't appreciate being accused of bias (and I'm not even sure what the bias would be -- an ideological slant against my own first name?). My intention in removing the claim was to improve the article's accuracy and uphold a previously-established consensus that the information was incorrect. Moreover, I'm not the only one to have done so (, ). RadicalSubversiv E 08:57, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Other stuff

I removed the following quote and its citation from the article:

King also was a strong supporter of the State of Israel, voicing his support nearing its 20th birthday. Congressman John Lewis recalled "On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with calrity and directness, stating, 'peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and security must be a reality.' During the UN Conference of Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The USA stood up against these vicious attacks. Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, 'I solemly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews - because bigorty in any form is an affront to us all.'"

Here's why. This long quote, while accurate, would belong in the article on Rep. Lewis. And more importantly, the short qoutes-within-the-quote are of very questionable authenticity. Congressman Lewis stated that King made this comment "shortly before his death" during "an appearance at Harvard." According to the Harvard Crimson, "The Rev. Martin Luther King was last in Cambridge almost exactly a year ago--April 23, 1967" ("While You Were Away" 4/8/68). If this is true, Dr. King could not have been in Cambridge in 1968. Also, an intensive inventory of publications by Stanford University's Martin Luther King Jr. Papers Project accounts for numerous speeches in 1968. None of them are for talks in Cambridge or Boston. , . Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 12:07, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Martin Luther King Jr. Plagiarist

One of the most publicly “hidden” facts is that Martin Luther King plagiarized his doctoral thesis from the Crozer Theological Seminary.

Here is the story as reported in The New Republic, Jan 28, 1991 v204 n4 p9(3) Embargoed. (Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarism story cover-up) Charles Babington. Full Text: COPYRIGHT 1991 The New Republic, Inc.

On November 9 The Wall Street journal published what was widely seen as a solid, page-one scoop: Martin Luther King had plagiarized parts of his doctoral dissertation. The next day the rest of the press followed with front-page stories, crediting the journal for the news. What they didn't reveal was that many of them had had the story themselves-a story that had been widely rumored, and easily available, for a year-and not printed it. The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Atlanta journal/ Constitution, and THE NEW REPUBLIC had all failed to run articles even though at least one editor at each journal knew of the King story last spring, and three right-wing journals had already published it.

The story begins on December 3, 1989-eleven months before The Wall Street Journals coup. The Sunday Telegraph of London carried an article headlined: "Martin Luther King-was he a plagiarist?" The column, by Frank Johnson under the pen name Mandrake, said, "Researchers in his native Georgia must soon decide whether to reveal that the late Dr. King ... was, in addition to his other human failings, a plagiarist." The column even identified the smoking gun-the dissertation of fellow Boston University student jack Boozer, from whom King lifted large passages verbatim. Mandrake quoted Ralph Luker of Atlanta, top assistant to Clay-borne Carson, the Stanford historian chosen by Coretta Scott King to direct the King Papers Project. Luker virtually confirmed the allegations with his painstaking efforts to sidestep all questions about plagiarism. As a final goad, Mandrake wrote, "The story has not yet been published in the United States." Johnson says he got the King plagiarism story from a British professor who had visited the United States, and that he's not surprised the U.S. press ignored his article. American reporters' powers of perception tend to fail them on questions of race, gender, gays," he told me.

I first heard this story in elementary school and used it as a way of refusing to celebrate Martin Luther King Jr Day. I was removed from class and sent home for causing a disturbance. The media still can’t get things right.

I find the mention of Dr. MLK jr's supposed plaigarism to be tasteless and demeaning to the cause he fought for and the people that fought for it. I would like to have it removed so that racists and bigots can't add their trash to wikipedia. --Iconoclast 19:23, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The material is, strictly speaking, accurate, but it was presented in a POV and insulting way. I've attempted to improve it. Comments welcome. RadicalSubversiv E 03:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

School

What were his degrees in?

I added some detail on Martin Luther King Jr's death. Juicyboy 325. 11/16/04

I'd like to add that "MLK: The Red Reverend" link and change the "Democratic Socialist?" heading to "Democratic socialist?" if possible.
gaidheal 19:57, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Link to National Archives needs to be changed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/National_Archives_and_Records_Administration instead of http://en.wikipedia.org/National_Archives , now a disambiguation page.

Censorship of Links

What ever you do please do not allow the following link to ever be listed on this page: http://www.Martinlutherking.org It has very politically incorrect points of view and documents about Martin Luther King that commits the crime of defaming the dead. Please ensure this link never is included in the article, all of the information on this site was written by ultra radical right wing extremist neo-nazis.Dariodario 14:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have to admit I find this posting very suspicious. The link wasn't listed in the first place, and terms like "censorship" and "politically incorrect" are not typically self-descriptive terms. I've got my eye on you. --Fastfission 14:07, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Molloy and the "Communist training camp"

For now I'm reverting Molloy's switch from the Oval Office picture to a front page apparently from a 1963 article in Roy V. Harris's segregationist tabloid newspaper, the Augusta Courier, which bore a picture and a headline. Molloy, please support your characterization of the picture as "Martin Luther King at a Communist training camp." --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:47, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've now removed the picture twice. First, because it replaced one that was already there with no explanation. Second, because such an obvious piece of segregationist propaganda must be contextualized as such. Describing the Highlander Folk School as a "Communist training camp" is not NPOV. RadicalSubversiv E 05:28, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Suspected copyvio

An anon just pasted this large text into one of the sections. I reverted it as a potential copyvio.

Origin
Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Junior was born on January 15, 1929 to Reverend Martin Luther King Sr. and Alberta Christine Williams King. He was born in 501 Auburn Avenue, Atlanta, Georgia. King also had two siblings, an older sister named Willie Christine King Farris and a younger brother named Alfred Daniel Williams King.
Education When he was five years old, Martin Luther King, Jr. started to go to school before reaching the legal age of six, at the Yonge Street Elementary School in Atlanta. When his age was discovered, he couldn’t and didn’t, continue going to school until he was six. After Yonge School, he was attended in David T. Howard Elementary School. He also went to the Atlanta University Laboratory School and Booker T. Washington High School. Because he worked hard and received high scores on the college entrance examinations in his junior year of high school, he advanced to Morehouse College without formal graduation. Having skipped both the ninth and twelfth grades, Dr. King entered Morehouse College at the age of fifteen. In 1948, he graduated from Morehouse College with a Bachelor degree in Sociology. That autumn, he enrolled in Crozer Theological Seminary in Chester, Pennsylvania while he also studied at the University of Pennsylvania. He was elected President of the Senior Class, won the Peral Plafkner Award as the most outstanding student and he received the J. Lewis Crozer Fellowship for graduate study at a university of his choice. He was awarded a Bachelor of Divinity degree from Crozer in 1951. In September of 1951, Martin Luther King, Jr. began doctoral studies in Systematic Theology at Boston University. He also studied at Harvard University. His dissertation was written in 1955, and the Ph.D. degree was awarded on June 5, 1955. Martin Luther King Jr. was awarded honorary degrees from many colleges and universities in the United States and other foreign countries. They include: • Doctor of Humane Letters, Morehouse College • Doctor of Laws, Howard University • Doctor of Divinity, Chicago Theological Seminary • Doctor of Laws, Morgan State University • Doctor of Humanities, Central State University • Doctor of Divinity, Boston University • Doctor of Laws, Lincoln University • Doctor of Laws, University of Bridgeport • Doctor of Civil Laws, Bard College • Doctor of Letters, Keuka College • Doctor of Divinity, Wesleyan College • Doctor of Laws, Jewish Theological Seminary • Doctor of Laws, Yale University • Doctor of Divinity, Springfield College • Doctor of Laws, Hofstra University • Doctor of Humane Letters, Oberlin College • Doctor of Social Science, Amsterdam Free University • Doctor of Divinity, St. Peter’s College • Doctor of Civil Law, University of New Castle, Upon Tyne • Doctor of Laws, Grinnell College Occupation and Life Martin Luther King Jr. entered the Christian ministry and was appointed to be a minister in February 1948 at the age of nineteen at Ebenezer Baptist Church, Atlanta, Georgia. Following his appointment, he became Assistant Pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church. Upon completion of his crams at Boston University, he approved the call of Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. He was the pastor of Dexter Avenue from September 1954 to November 1959, when he had to move to Atlanta to guide the activities of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. From 1960 until his death in 1968, he was co-pastor with his father at Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Dr. King was an essential figure in the Civil Rights Movement. He was designated President of the Montgomery Improvement Association, the organization that was accountable for the successful Montgomery Bus Boycott from 1955 to 1956 (381 days). He was detained thirty times for his contribution in civil rights activities. He was an initiator and president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference from 1957 to 1968. He was also Vice President of the National Sunday School and Baptist Teaching Union Congress of the National Baptist Convention. He was a member of many national and neighboring boards of supervisors and labored on the boards of trustees of numerous long time established people and agencies. Dr. King was selected to membership in several well-taught societies including the acknowledged American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Family Dr. King married Coretta Scott King on the 18th of June in the year 1953. Together, they had 4 children; Yolanda Denise who was born in November 17, 1955, Montgomery, Alabama, Martin Luther III who was born on October 23, 1957, Montgomery, Alabama, Dexter Scott was born on January 30, 1961, Atlanta, Georgia and Bernice Albertine on March 28, 1963, Atlanta, Georgia. They lived in different places because Martin Luther King did quite a lot of moving. Community Martin Luther King Jr. worked as a co-pastor with his father at Ebenezer Baptist Church, a key figure in the Civil Rights Movement, was elected president of the Montgomery Improvement Association, a member of many important boards including civil right supporters. The conditions of the areas where he work might have been okay because a) he was a Negro and Negroes didn’t have better environment than others but b) the areas that he worked in were important so think of them as second-rate buildings. Conclusion Other people do and should think of Martin Luther King as a hero, someone who equaled human rights in a non-violent way and believed that everybody was the same. His main accomplishment and contribution to our lives was to let everybody understand that it didn’t matter what the color of one’s skin is, white, black, yellow, orange or purple. It just mattered that they were people and they deserved the same rights as everybody else. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated while standing on his motel balcony in Lorraine Motel, Memphis, Tennessee by assassin James Earl Ray on April 4, 1968. He died of a fatal bullet wound and was buried in the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site in Atlanta, Georgia. Anecdotes When Martin Luther King was signing books one day, he was stabbed in the chest with a letter opener by a mad black woman just before he went to visit Indian Prime Minister Nehru. Martin Luther King has gotten in to jail over 50 times for his contribution in civil right activities. Martin Luther King’s birth name is actually Michael. Both he and his father changed their names to Martin at the age of six because Martin sounded better. Martin Luther King received a lot of awards for his outstanding non-violent civil rights battle. The awards he has won are the following. • He was selected as one of the ten most outstanding person of the year 19570 by Time Magazine. • He was listed in Who’s Who in America, 1957. • He won the Spingarn Medal from the NAACP, 1957. • He won the Russwurm Award from the National Newspaper Publishers, 1957. • He won the Second Annual Achievement Award from The Guardian Association of the Police Department of New York, 1958. • He was selected as one of the sixteen world leaders who had contributed most to the advancement of freedom during 1959 by Ling Magazine of New Delhi, India. • He was named “Man of the Year “by Time Magazine, 1963. • He was named “American of the Decade,” by the Laundry, Dry Cleaning, and Die Workers, International Union, 1963. • He won the John Dewey Award, from the United Federation of Teachers, 1964. • He won the John F. Kennedy Award, from the Catholic Interracial Council of Chicago, 1964. • He received The Nobel Peace Prize, at age 35, the youngest man, second American, and the third black man to be so honoured, 1964. • He won the Marcus Garvey Prize for Human Rights, presented by the Jamaican Government, posthumously, 1968. • He won the Rosa L. Parks award, presented by The Southern Christian Leadership Conference, posthumously, 1968. • Lastly, he won the Aims Field-Wolf Award for his book, Stride Toward Freedom. Martin Luther King was also quite an accomplished author He wrote many novels including • Stride Toward Freedom, 1958. The story of the Montgomery Bus Boycott. • The Measure of a Man, 1959. A selection of religious lectures. • Why We Can’t Wait, 1963. The story of the Birmingham Campaign. • Strength to Love, 1963. Another selection of religious. • Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?, 1967). Reflections on the problems of today’s world, atomic bombs racism, etc. • The Trumpet of Conscience, 1968). The Massey Lectures, sponsored by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

I couldn't find an exact match with a google search, but the bullets in there tell me it almost certainly was copied from some other source. There was quite a bit of similarity in this page I found, http://www.wsu.edu/MLK/about.html but it was nowhere near an exact match. Possibly one was the source of the other, or both cribbed from the same source. There looks to be some decent additions that could be made to the article with the info found here, but I don't have the time right now. --Ponder 23:22, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

Democratic socialist?

This section was not encyclopedic so I removed it. It belongs in wikiquote. Maybe there should be a subheading for Martin Luther King's beliefs?

It is decidedly encyclopedic and merits expansion. In his later years, King spoke about democratic socialism fairly frequently, and there are even some biographers who speculate that he was operating from a fundamentally socialist approach since he first read Marx in college. Regardless, the existence of Wikiquote does not mean that secondary sources should not be quoted in Misplaced Pages articles. RadicalSubversiv E 08:14, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, please sign your comments on talk pages. (by typing ~~~~). RadicalSubversiv E 08:15, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

King and the climate of the times

"This statement is remarkable since King rarely allowed his positive response to democratic socialism to be recorded. His usual practice, according to one of his aides, was to demand that they "turn off the tape recorder" while he expounded on the virtues of "what he called democratic socialism, and he said, 'I can't say this publicly, and if you say I said it I'm not gonna admit to it." King "didn't believe that capitalism as it was constructed could meet the needs of poor people," the aide said, "and that we might need to look at what was a kind of socialism, but a democratic form of socialism." Even in the speech that contains the passage cited above, King said he wasn't "going to allow anybody to put in the bind of making me say everytime" that he wasn't a communist or a Marxist. Still, as democratic socialist Michael Harrington said, King was highly reluctant to name his radical position in public. King didn't want to arouse suspicion and thus compromise the achievement of economic and racial equality. "Dr. King had a genius for this," Harrington said. "How do you phrase the message so that you don't betray the message but you put it in terms which are understandable and accessible to people on the street?" Harrington claims that King "certainly wouldn't use radical phraseology in many cases for that reason." The great Marxist historian C.L.R. James recalls that King told him that while he believed in radical ideas, he couldn't "say such things from the pulpit." James say that King "wanted me to know that he understood and accepted, and in fact agreed with, the ideas that I was putting forward--ideas which were fundamentally Marxist-Leninist." James concluded that King was "a man whose ideas were as advanced as any of us on the Left.""

From the page linked at the bottom "The Red Reverend". That's why I think we should have a sentence referring to his refusal to come out and say that he was or was not a socialist. gaidheal 20:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The problem with labeling King is the problem with labeling King. The African-American community has a long tradtion of communal/socialist economics. But once one labels someone a "socialist," that puts them in the ambit of white socialism, socialism as a construct of Marxism, socialism as a construct of the white left -- when such is not the case, certainly, with King and with most African-Americans. In the African-American community there is a common saying, "From each according to his abilities to each according to his need." This, in a kernel, is African-Amercan/African communal socialist tradition -- without all the bilateral "commie-Yankee" connotations. That's why it is best to let King's words speak for themselves -- without the label. IMO, the reader is intelligent enough to draw his or her own conclusions from the quote already provided. deeceevoice 20:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A good point, one that I agree with for the most part, but I would say that we need something to point out the fact that while King identified in some way with demoractic socialism, it was always in private - it's a part of who he is, and why he is not perceived as a socialist in modern culture. (Unlike another African (albeit from the continent of Africa) communitarian, Julius Nyerere, for example.) Maybe we can work out some sort of compromise wording? gaidheal 20:41, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What you've rewritten is acceptable to me! gaidheal 20:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not for me -- sorry. It's nicely written, but wildly inaccurate. King's radicalism had little to do with LBJ's Great Society, which was emphatically not a "brand of democratic socialism". And while King was very concerned about the cost of the war in Vietnam relative to domestic needs, it's very misleading to connect that to his growing commitment to democratic socialism. If you read his statements about socialism (even the public ones about "social democracy"), his point was that government social spending on its own was an inadequate solution to the structural injustices of capitalism: i.e., even if the U.S. were to withdraw from Vietnam and spending the money saved on jobs, housing, etc., it still wouldn't be enough.

I just read your characterization of my edit as "wildly inaccurate." Not so. The statements about his concerns about critical economic resources being usurped by the Vietnam was indeed correct and completely valid. King --for whatever reason -- did not go on the record against capitalism, per se, instead focusing on economic justice and peace. The march on Washington following his death with the mule-drawn cart and the establishment of "Resurrection City" on the Mall was a continuation of King's call for a reprioritization of U.S. government spending to focus on problems of the poor and marginalized and a guaranteed income, which he started to enunciate in "Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?" deeceevoice 17:01, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

One matter which should be addressed here is King's notion of the "beloved community", a term he used frequently and pubicly and which clearly incorporated socialist ideals. RadicalSubversiv E 21:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The notion of "beloved community" is a very strong one in the black Christian community -- indeed, in Christian theology, generally -- another context for King's socialist tendencies. Saying that does in no way contradict King's criticism of the capitalist model -- which is also quite common in the African-American community. (We are very much aware that the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the tremdous fortunes amassed on the backs of black folks is what gave rise to world capitalism in the first place!) I also think it's important that note be made of King's sense that capitalism was an inadequate economic model, with built-in inequities and injustice. But I don't have time to do it. Anyone else wanna take a stab at it? deeceevoice 21:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)