Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

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view · edit Frequently asked questions

Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral?

A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud.

Q: So Misplaced Pages is saying that there was not a secret Jewish conspiracy to rule the world?

A: That is an entirely separate issue from the established fact that the Protocols is fraudulent.

Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR?

A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it.

Q: But if the fraud is a well-established fact, why do some groups still assert that the Protocols is a genuine document?

A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all.

Q: But you can't disprove the contention that a bunch of Jews got together sometime in the mid-19th century and plotted a conspiracy, can you?

A: As already stated, the conspiracy issue is not relevant to this article. But to answer your question, if one was told that the Moon is a giant ball of Gouda cheese covered with a foot-thick layer of dirt, it would be their responsibility to prove them.

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Herzl and Zionism

"The text, which nowhere advocates for Zionism, resembles a parody of Herzl's ideas". It has to be one or the other; doesn't it? To parody ideas you usually have to present them, even if ironically. --Nngnna (talk) 14:02, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

TheTimes exposes TheProtocols as a forgery.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Fabrication not forgery

Suggestion that every instance of the word "forgery" on this page should be replaced by the word 'fabrication'. A forgery is a copy of an original, or at least in the style of an original, which in this case is false and tremendously pernicious. illywhacker; (talk) 09:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

It's been referred to as a "forgery" by reliable sources for over a century. --jpgordon 13:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

The choice of word has been discussed a great deal, check the archives of this page. I don't agree that "forgery" implies there is an original. For example if I make a painting in the style of Rembrandt and try to pass it off as a genuine newly-discovered Rembrandt, that will be called art forgery by almost everyone. It doesn't have to be a copy of a real Rembrandt. The key aspect of forgery is to create something that is not what you say it is. Of course "fabrication" is also a true description, but we aren't going to change the word without another discussion and we have had several of those already. Zero 14:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I did say "or at least in the style of". This document is a forgery 'in the style of' which genuine articles or creator? However, I do not have the time or the energy to enter into a discussion; so be it. illywhacker; (talk) 16:36, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

watch your tone, no need to be rude ZetaFive (talk) 01:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Forgery for over 100 years..now a fabrication...even though parts of it aren't

Fabrication implies 100% of the book is made-up, but the description, on the same page no less, literally says the opposite. 2601:140:8400:36C0:429:D241:4DFF:B9B1 (talk) 22:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Fake, fabrication, forgery, counterfeit, falsification, sham, fraud, hoax, phony, makey-uppy - whatever word you want to use, it's a vile antisemitic document that is not what it purports to be, and has been used by racists for much too long to create an inaccurate and inflammatory portrait of Jews and Judaism. It's unfortunate -- and depressing -- to think that some people still believe in it even today. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

New Book

I suggest to add the following book to Further Reading:

Hagemeister, Michael (2022): The Perennial Conspiracy Theory: Reflections on the History of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, London, New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-1-03-206015-6.

--Phi (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Henry Ford allegedly gave Hitler a copy of the Protocols while he was in prison and before writing Mein Kampf

I have read two Misplaced Pages articles on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Both are full of allegations, research and historical facts. But neither seems to delve into something I cam across recently that it was Henry Ford who allegedly got the Protocols into Hitlers hands while he was in prison and before he wrote Mein Kampf. If true, this would point to the Protocols as being the SOURCE of Hitlers ultimate plan to murder all Jews. i would like to see this information further researched and written up. 2601:1C0:CA01:9240:4DD7:9C90:1573:2C51 (talk) 17:06, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

You're going to need to provide a source for that.Ford's influence was more probably indirect, through other Germans who were influential with Hitler and who have acknowledged the influence of Ford's publications, such as The International Jew, which was published in German. Please read Henry Ford, The International Jew and The Dearborn Independent for context, as well as our article on Mein Kampf.. Acroterion (talk) 18:05, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

It's likely the best you'll find will be WP:SYNTHESIS of sources, which isn't going to fly. Was it influential? Probably. The source of his ultimate plan? That's conjecture. If you can find a reliable academic source that makes that assertion, the best you can probably do is to mention it with attribution to the source. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:20, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I think it's a conflation. Ford was already publishing The International Jew when L. Fry introduced him to the Protocols (this would be 1920 or so.) Hitler's time in jail was 1924, and he certainly was familiar with Ford's writings by then -- and that might be where the idea that Ford "got the Protocols into Hitler's hands". --jpgordon 19:55, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

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