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De facto, de jure

Sovereign state#De facto and de jure states This mostly uncited section (only specific examples are cited) seems ORish. It is a subsection of Recognition so one can assume it is referring to de facto and de jure recognition.

Example: "However, states which are only de jure states are sometimes recognised as being the legitimate government of a territory over which they have no actual control."

State recognition is not the same thing as government recognition. Selfstudier (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The defacto v. dejure state language can be found in virtually any textbook on statehood.XavierGreen (talk) 20:39, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Then there will be no difficulty in providing a citation.(de jure/de facto recognition, de jure/de facto sovereignty, de jure/de facto annexation, even de facto state is a recognizable short form for unrecognized states but de jure state seems duplicative, since states are of course legal if they are states. Selfstudier (talk) 20:59, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Recognition de jure means that the entity fully satisfies the applicable legal criteria; recognition de facto is only of the current position of the entity, and is therefore usually provisional, although it can last for a long time.

De facto recognition is a provisional form of recognition...may be withdrawn...does not as a rule, bring about either full diplomatic intercourse or the conferment of diplomatic immunity

As a result, the Baltic states claimed, their existence was terminated only de facto, but continued to exist de jure. CMD (talk) 23:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The first two are about recognition de jure/de facto, I don't have a problem with those. The third one is a special case referring to the Baltic states claim of continuing de jure existence following alleged illegal annexation. What I am really looking for is a general discussion of de facto/de jure states as implied by the section title, it is less easy to find such in standard references. The section needs fixing up, I will give some thought to how to do it. Selfstudier (talk) 09:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

The Baltics were the first one to come to mind regarding de jure states that aren't de facto. Another example that springs to mind is failed states. But you are correct that they are relatively uncommon cases, especially so in the very structured post-WWII world. CMD (talk) 11:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

There are several other cases throughout history, such as the various Allied aligned governments of states annexed by Nazi Germany during World War Two, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (although it now no longer claims to be a "state") and some examples during the Napoleonic Era as well.XavierGreen (talk) 21:46, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose merging Westphalian sovereignty into Sovereign state. I think the content in Westphalian sovereignty can easily be explained in the context of sovereign state. None of the current articles are of great quality, and perhaps they stray into content of each other. The "State extinction", "Westphalian sovereignty" and "Ontological status of the state" sections are overlapping with Westphalian sovereignty article very much. 145.15.244.234 (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Not a good idea. 2001:8003:913E:5D01:2422:BF9A:7157:BB6A (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Leutha (talk) 11:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Oppose: Separate ideas with separate contexts and applications. Certainly not interchangeable terms. Content is not so terrible that it needs merging. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Very obviously separate. //Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 23:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Johnbod (talk) 06:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

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