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DRN update

@RobertMcClenon: I just checked that you have closed the DRN thread, and now I am starting the RfC. Srijanx22 (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC

RfC

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a consensus that proposal #1 is better. —Compassionate727  17:09, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Which version is better for the first paragraph of the lead? Srijanx22 (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

  • Proposal 1 (written by me):

Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale (Punjabi: ; born Jarnail Singh Brar; 2 June 1947– 6 June 1984) was an Indian militant and the leading figure of Khalistan movement.

He was the fourteenth jathedar, or leader, of the prominent orthodox Sikh religious institution Damdami Taksal. He was an advocate of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution, gaining significant attention after his involvement in the 1978 Sikh-Nirankari clash.

References

  1. Cite error: The named reference SH was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. Cite error: The named reference Singh 2017 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. "Who is Iqbal Singh Lalpura, ex-cop who arrested Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and newest member of BJP's top body?". Firstpost. 2022-08-17. Bhindranwale was a militant leader and leading figure of the Khalistan movement who was killed in Operation Blue Star in 1984.
  4. "Controversy over Punjabi film, song glorifying militant on death row". NDTV. 2019-02-22. Bhindranwale was a militant leader who had holed up with his supporters
  5. Malji, A. (2022). Religious Nationalism in Contemporary South Asia. Elements in Religion and Violence. Cambridge University Press. p. 50. ISBN 978-1-108-91118-4. Bhindranwale was a militant Sikh
  6. Sinha, C. (2019). The Great Repression: The Story of Sedition in India. Penguin Random House India Private Limited. p. 231. ISBN 978-93-5305-618-6. Bhindranwale was a militant religious leader and the leader of the Khalistani Movement
  7. Larson, G.J. (1995). India's Agony Over Religion: Confronting Diversity in Teacher Education. SUNY Series in Religious Studies. State University of New York Press. p. 230. ISBN 978-0-7914-2412-4. Within a few years Bhindranwale developed his own power base quite apart from the Congress ( I ) and began to emerge as the key figure in the Sikh separatist movement that was demanding a new independent state for Sikhs in the Punjab, an independent state to be known as "Khalistan" (the "Land of the Khalsa" or the "Land of the Pure"). He and his followers took control of the Sikh Golden Temple and the Akal Takht (the "Eternal Tower"), the central shrine and symbol of the Sikh faith, in Amritsar early in 1984, stockpiling huge caches of weapons and apparently preparing for armed insurrection.
  8. Juergensmeyer, M. (2020). God at War: A Meditation on Religion and Warfare. Oxford University Press. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-19-007919-2. Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, the key figure in the Khalistan movement
  9. Aspinall, E.; Jeffrey, R.; Regan, A.J. (2013). Diminishing Conflicts in Asia and the Pacific: Why Some Subside and Others Don't. Online access with subscription: Proquest Ebook Central. Routledge. p. 89. ISBN 978-0-415-67031-9. By 1981, he had become the leading figure of an aggressive movement for a Sikh state.
  10. Sinha, C. (2019). The Great Repression: The Story of Sedition in India. Penguin Random House India Private Limited. p. 123. ISBN 978-93-5305-618-6. Retrieved 2022-07-17.
  11. Dhillon 1996, p. 160. sfn error: no target: CITEREFDhillon1996 (help)
  12. Singh 2017, p. 156: "At some stage, Bhindranwale had taken it upon himself to get the 1973 Anandpur Sahib Resolution passed. Incidentally, Bhindranwale had never asked for a separate Sikh state, but was fighting for the implementation of the 1973 resolution...."
  13. Cite error: The named reference dulat was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. Cite error: The named reference stevens was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  15. Pettigrew 1987, p. 12. sfn error: no target: CITEREFPettigrew1987 (help)
  16. "Bhindranwale firm on Anandpur move". Hindustan Times. 5 September 1983.
  17. "Bhindranwale, not for Khalistan". Hindustan Times. 13 November 1982.
  18. "Sikhs not for secession: Bhindranwale". The Tribune. 28 February 1984.
  19. Aspinall, E.; Jeffrey, R.; Regan, A.J. (2013). Diminishing Conflicts in Asia and the Pacific: Why Some Subside and Others Don't. Online access with subscription: Proquest Ebook Central. Routledge. p. 89. ISBN 978-0-415-67031-9. Retrieved 2022-07-31.
  • Proposal 2 (written by Sapedder):

Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale (Punjabi: ; born Jarnail Singh Brar; 2 June 1947– 6 June 1984) was the fourteenth jathedar, or leader, of the prominent orthodox Sikh religious institution Damdami Taksal. He was an advocate of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution, gaining significant attention after his involvement in the 1978 Sikh-Nirankari clash.

References

  1. Cite error: The named reference SH was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. Cite error: The named reference Singh 2017 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. Sinha, C. (2019). The Great Repression: The Story of Sedition in India. Penguin Random House India Private Limited. p. 123. ISBN 978-93-5305-618-6. Retrieved 2022-07-17.
  4. Dhillon 1996, p. 160. sfn error: no target: CITEREFDhillon1996 (help)
  5. Pettigrew 1987, p. 12. sfn error: no target: CITEREFPettigrew1987 (help)
  6. "Bhindranwale firm on Anandpur move". Hindustan Times. 5 September 1983.
  7. "Bhindranwale, not for Khalistan". Hindustan Times. 13 November 1982.
  8. "Sikhs not for secession: Bhindranwale". The Tribune. 28 February 1984.

Srijanx22 (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Survey

@ClydeFranklin: could I invite you to take a look at the existing sources I have included in my take that dispute this (they were not presented in the RfC previously, I have included them here after consulting with admins), and review your selection in light of having seen sources from both perspectives? Sapedder (talk) 05:30, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • 1 Concise and accurate. Accesscrawl (talk) 04:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
  • 2 seems to be more encyclopedic. Bhindranwale was not a leading figure in the Khalistan movement. This claim by #1 is addressed in MoS WP:LEAD Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. It seems like an effort to shoe-horn information that has been refuted directly into the lede. Also, there are words other than "militant" (used by #1) which don't carry the same connotations. If I had to guess, #1 leans Indian nationalist rather than WP:NPOV. #2 does a shockingly good job of sticking to the facts at hand, given the contentious subject matter. 〜 ⠀snowy🌼meadows˙ 05:19, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

*’’’2’’’ more encyclopedic. If alternate term to militant is used, 1 might be acceptable. F117IS (talk) 01:32, 15 October 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock puppet

  • 2: This was the long-standing lead for a reason. The article currently also states that "he was not an advocate of Khalistan," along with some of the sources in the article, including these, which were clearly left out here:
Unmentioned sources

  • "At some stage, Bhindranwale had taken it upon himself to get the 1973 Anandpur Sahib Resolution passed. Incidentally, Bhindranwale had never asked for a separate Sikh state, but was fighting for the implementation of the 1973 resolution.... Bhindranwale, in fact, had always opined that he never asked for Khalistan, but if it was offered, the Sikhs would not give up the offer as they did during partition in August 1947."
    — Singh, Khushwant (2017). Captain Amarinder Singh: The People's Maharaja: An Authorized Biography. Hay House. pp. 156–157.

  • "Bhindranwale was not an outspoken supporter of Khalistan, although he often emphasized the separate identity of the Sikhs."
    — Deol, Harnik (2000). Religion and Nationalism in India: The Case of the Punjab (Routledge Studies in the Modern History of Asia). Routledge. p. 170.

  • "Before the raid on the Golden Temple, neither the Government nor anyone else appeared to put much credence in the Khalistan movement. Mr. Bhindranwale himself said many times that he was not seeking an independent country for Sikhs, merely greater autonomy for Punjab within the Indian Union....One possible explanation advanced for the Government's raising of the Khalistan question is that it needs to take every opportunity to justify the killing in Amritsar and the invasion of the Sikhs' holiest shrine."
    — Stevens, William K. (June 19, 1984). "Punjab Raid: Unanswered Questions". The New York Times. The New York Times Company.

  • "“He never demanded Khalistan.... All that Bhindranwale wanted was the implementation of the Anandpur Sahib resolution of 1973. Operation Bluestar and Bhindranwale’s death was the main reason that the demand for Khalistan found currency, even among the hardliners,” added Harjit."
    — Chandel, Shamsher (9 May 2022). "Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale Never Asked For Khalistan, Claims Elder Brother Harjit Singh Rode". India Ahead. Noida, India. Retrieved 28 August 2022.

  • "“Bhindranwale never raised the demand for Khalistan or went beyond the Akali Anandpur Sahib Resolution, while he himself was prepared for negotiations to the very end.” added Harjit."
    — Dulat, A. S. (13 Dec 2020). "Genesis of tumultuous period in Punjab". www.tribuneindia.com. The Tribune Trust.

  • "Of course not," I said. "Look, if the Sikhs really want to create Khalistan and are prepared to die for it, I have little doubt they will succeed. But what do they really want? What do you want? Do you want Khalistan?"

    "I have never asked for Khalistan," said.
    — Puri, Rajinder (November 2, 2003). "Remembering 1984". Tribune India.

  • "The documentation of the reports sent to the central government before Operation Bluestar reads, “We ended this meeting in utmost cordiality and understanding and were happy at the outcome. In fact, I found there was nothing that would frighten the government of India, nor anyone else.”

    Pannun claimed that Bhindranwale had repeatedly told him, “I don’t want Khalistan, but they would give it on a platter to me.” He said the sant was “grossly misunderstood,” and had he been treated with honesty and consideration, Operation BlueStar would have never taken place."
    — Walia, Varinder (29 August 2008). "Man who made efforts to avert Op Bluestar is no more". Tribune India.

  • "The assumption that Bhindranwale was insisting on Khalistan and rigidly denied any compromise is the biggest lie. What needs investigation is why Indira Gandhi despite having obtained an agreement with Bhindranwale that rendered Operation Bluestar redundant nevertheless launched the military action that led to her own death and to the tragic aftermath. What was her compulsion? Who was advising her?"
    — Puri, Rajinder (7 June 2014). "Biggest Lie about Bluestar!". The Statesman. Kolkata.

There is clear dispute about "Khalistan movement," so it's not "just facts." These include secondary perspectives stating such, not just quotes from the subject. Tertiary sources certainly do not outweigh secondary ones, so these too must be accounted for, and balanced for neutrality. Seeing as perspectives clearly clash, per WP:BALANCE we must "describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint," which the end of the lead already does, and not insist on breaking NPOV. What he is "best known for" is completely subjective, hence meaningless. As for "militant," he is already described twice as such in the lead, so this is a non-issue. Sapedder (talk) 05:26, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

  • 1 Meets the definition of a "militant". Even if he was not an advocate of the Khalistan state, he nevertheless served as the leading icon of the movement. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 13:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • 1 Saw this on AN/I. The first proposal correctly states what the subject is really all about per MOS:LEAD and is backed with quality WP:RS. The quotations provided above remind me of "never ask never ask a convict: 'What crime did you commit?'" because it's obvious that a criminal will deny all wrongdoing. It makes no sense to omit the most important facts about the subject from the lead. Azuredivay (talk) 17:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2023

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SANT JARNIL WAS NOT A TERRORIST GURSHAN SINGH PB46 (talk) 01:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Reliable sources describe him as such and make clear who perceive him as one. —C.Fred (talk) 01:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Well, you are still wrong. You have to earn more about him. HE WAS A SAINT NOT A MILITANT TheFastestPerson (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
You are right. @C.Fred you are wrong! LEARN MORE ABOUT HIM. TheFastestPerson (talk) 23:13, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
@TheFastestPerson And what reliable sources should I read about him in? —C.Fred (talk) 02:39, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
@C.Fred Get on Sikhnet.com & search up his name. TheFastestPerson (talk) 10:29, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
@TheFastestPerson I did, and there's no bibliography, so that's a dead end. —C.Fred (talk) 11:44, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
@C.Fred I did research & there is NO DEAD END TheFastestPerson (talk) 13:08, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
@TheFastestPerson So, what sources did you see cited there? I didn't see anything there that I could read and use as a reliable source. —C.Fred (talk) 01:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
@C.Fred Here: "He spread the original values of Sikhism and persuaded people young and old to follow the original rules and tenets of the religion." TheFastestPerson (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
@C.Fred @TheFastestPerson I know I have nothing to do with this but if you want to truly learn about Sant Jarnail Singh listen to his speeches and read Struggle for Justice a translation of the speeches. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 21:50, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
@CanadianSingh1469 Even with that, his speeches are, at best, primary sources. The issue is that when independent reliable sources describe a subject in a particular way, we use that description. —C.Fred (talk) 00:24, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
I am talking about reading that book if you just want to learn about him for personal interest. (Form an opinion) Not talking about using it on Misplaced Pages. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 00:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
@TheFastestPerson That's a statement of the author, not a source. —C.Fred (talk) 00:23, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2023

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Please change the phrase to "free rein." The phrase "free reign" is incorrect. Soozcat00 (talk) 04:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Pinchme123 (talk) 05:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Remove word "militant".

Why did u used militant word.What is the proof.Militant was the army which attacked the sacred place and killed hundreds of innocent peopleincluding kids and women. 117.224.4.51 (talk) 18:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

With five sources cited, four of which have pull quotes that directly call him a militant, the use of the word is in order. —C.Fred (talk) 02:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
This is very unfair that you block my address after your reply.How i will able to share my views and provide you the sources to support my comment.Sant jarnail singh bhindrwala was a respected personality of Sikhs.He was not a militant. even there is not a single F.i.r registered against him. The well known BJP MP MR.SUBRAMANIAN SWAMI call him a saint(https://digpu.com/opinion/bhindranwale-was-a-saint-said-swami).Also You must see him from the perspective of Sikhs also.You should visit punjab and ask the people yourself about Bhindranwala.You will get only positive comments about them.Militants kills peoples,did he??He raise his voice against injustice of INDIAN GOVT. TOWARDS PUNJAB AND ASKS FOR A FEDRAL SYSTEM.He dare to stand against govt.Govt. will do anything to protect its interst wheteher it is fair or unfair.Punjab is suffering from centre govt. policies till now.The recent Farmer protest led by punjab is ne example of this.You should be neutral.I request again to remove the word Militants as its hurts the sentiments of Sikh community. 117.254.59.252 (talk) 09:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Remove word "militant"

There is no any fir police records against him how you can used militants word what proof you have militants those who raped sikh women murder sikh children genocide innocent sikh people in dehli Pimky005 (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Biased article

This is totally a biased article.Spreading misinformation about Sikh community.Authors and editors not wants to hear the other side.They are calling Sant jarnail singh bhindranwalw a "militant" while he is a hero of Sikh community.Read other sources,do your own research.Do not be such blind on this plateform.I challange the authors and editors of this article to debate with me in this topic.You have deleted my previous comment. Sant jarnail singh bhindranwala was a hero and will be remain a hero which got martyrdom with many innocent Sikh mens,women and children. Militant was indian army which open gunfire and tanks at the sacred Darbar sahab(GOLDEN TEMPLE). 117.208.98.94 (talk) 05:08, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

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