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French sources request 24 July 2023

Hi Rama, User:Broichmore approached me concerning these two files: La Mouche, and Cadiz. I can find nothing in my sources. It looks like both pictures are a tribute to a Captain Jn Adrian, first in 1799 as captain of the corsair Mouche, and second, in 1800, of the schooner Abeille. Does Demerliac have anything, or do any of your other sources? The English translation of the description under the first picture is pretty incoherent, probably due to a poor transcription of an almost as incoherent French description. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Please check my translation and date. Broichmore (talk) 08:51, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Broichmore: Apologies. Did not mean to impune your translation or transcription. I could not make any sense of the original text under the picture, and my attempt to translate the transcription made no sense either. Acad Ronin (talk) 15:52, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Me too. I ran it through Google and MS. I changed it since initial contact with you. Think the meaning is (my latest effort)": 'On 14th Germinal (July), year 7 (1799) of the French Republic in the lance of Colognia (Coast of Spain). Combat of the Corsair la Mouche armed with 8. guns. Cap Jh Adrian. Against a Cutter of 16 nine pounder guns for 4 hours, determined to resume his hold on Lavantoroso which the said Corsair had kidnapped from him the previous night when under his Escort'. My date needs checking. The inscription is very cryptic. Broichmore (talk) 09:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

• Mouche: The transcription looks about right, with the word cotte for what would now be written côte ("coast"). Similarly l'ance for l'anse (narrow bay). You have most of the meaning, I just tried to put the words in a more friendly order:

"On the 14 Germinal year 7 of the French Republic, in the Bay of Colonia on the coast of Spain, 4-hour long fight of the privateer Mouche, armed with an 8-pounder swivel gun, under Captain Jean Adrian, against a 16-nine-pounder gun cutter, to recapture the prize called Lavantoroso (?) which said privateer had captured the previous night while was escorting ."

The only privateer listed under that name with compatible dates was a privateer corvette from Bordeaux, much larger and stronger than the gunboat involved here, so no luck.

• Abeille: the transcription and translation are both quite good. The image depicts Abeille as she manages to sneak through the British blockade, a feat of sailmanship from which one could quite reasonably take pride.

Abeille (no 2425, p.296 of 1800-1815) was a French privateer commissioned in Cadiz in May 1800. She cruised under Captain J. Adrien, who came from Martigues, from May 1800 to January 1801. Sadly nothing more is said here.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

PS: 14 Germinal year 7 is 3 April 1799 of the Gregorian calendar. "Germinal" means "the month where plants bloom", so in spring; July covers parts of Messidor ("month of harvest") and Thermidor ("the month of heat"). Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Excellent. Many thanks. Alas the mouche is not No. 1, which would have been a coup. Broichmore (talk) 11:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Gentles: In the article Moucheron, there is mention of a privateer Abeille operating out of Cadiz in 1800. I am guessing that she is our Abeille. The picture with her running the blockade would make a good addition to the article. Unfortunately, Moucheron is too big to be Mouche. I am going to add the Demerliac description to the Moucheron article. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Another interesting picture

Hi Rama, Acad Ronin I just added a Cammillieri picture here, albeit temporarily. I'm wondering whether or not we have identified the ships correctly, especially the Englishman? Slight inconsistancies between Roux, Cammillieri and the article. Build date for Comtesse Emeriau? Coincidentally, this sailor also comes from Martiques. This article gives Comtesse and Princess for the name of the ship, I begin to wonder if we have the same pirate, even, for this and the previous messages about the Mouche? Another article _ Broichmore (talk) 17:36, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

OK. The English ship was Harvey, Atkinson, master, of 260 tons (bm), launched at Whitby in 1802. The English account of the capture is in Lloyd's List. "The Marine List". Lloyd's List. No. 4507. 2 November 1810. hdl:2027/hvd.32044105232938. Unfortunately, I can't find her in Wetherill's book on Whitby and its shipping. If I could, I would be willing to chance a small article on Harvey. A secondary source and a picture would go a long way to establishing notability. An English article on Countess Emerieau would be possible, but would take a long time to prepare. Between the picture and the French sources it would be OK. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC) Acad Ronin (talk) 19:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

The ship was named Comtesse Émeriau, or Comtesse d'Émeriau, feminine (i.e. "la", not "le"). Probably sucking u as an indirect hommage to Maxime Julien Émeriau de Beauverger who was maritime prefect of Toulon, and therefore in charge of authorising such ventures in the area. Émeriau was a Count in the nobility system of the First French Empire. "Princesse" is not listed in Demerliac, and would make no sense given the context.

Comtesse Émeriau (no 2479, p.300), privateer from Sète commissioned in September 1809. From September 1809 to June 1812 under J.-A. Ytier with 110 to 118 men, and 11 guns (5 carronades and 6 swivel guns). Captured in June 1812 by HMS Badger.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Volcan and Conception

Hi Rama, Acad Ronin, I got this picture a while ago and seperately a cropped detail of it. The institution got horribly mixed up on the title, they differ for both images. I believe this is The Pinco Conception in Battle with Xebec Le Volcan, 1804. The Volcan is flying a British flag, RN? Its not inconceivable that the names are mixed up against type here. I can't find the caption, its been chopped off. Any ideas? Broichmore (talk) 09:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Not quite clear what is in the canton of the flag of the xebec, but it certainly could be the Red Ensign.

In 1804 the Republic of Italy was an ally of France, so either Volcan was the literal name of the xebec but she was in the hands of an enemy of Italy, or Volcan is a translation.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

It's this pic, that shows the British flag? Dont know if you saw it? Broichmore (talk) 16:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes, the image I saw was lower resolution, this one leaves no doubt. Definitly the British Red Ensign. Rama (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

So far, I haven't been able to find a Volcano in Lloyd's Register or Lloyd's List. Acad Ronin (talk) 23:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

French Naval Ship at sail

Hi Rama, Is there any value to uploading this image? Best regards. Broichmore (talk) 09:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

there is always value in such images, be it for the image itself. Now, of course, I am not sure that I see any French warship on this image, but that is another question...

Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll leave it for another. If it's a type I woud load it. I don't upload fantasy stuff, knowingly as a rule. Broichmore (talk) 14:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Demerliac request 10 August 2023

Hi Rama, could you please see if Demerliac has anything on the following two privateers: 1}Jeune Adele in the article Pitt (1799 ship); 2) Legere, in the article Sultana (1787 ship)?. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:33, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

• Jeune Adèle (no 2745, p.321): privateer schooner commissioned in Guadeloupe circa June 1806, with cruises in June, October November of that year under a Captain Le Prieur with 61 men and 14 6-pounders.
• Légère: not quite certain but she might be no 2590 p.286: privateer from an unknown home port, operating in the Mediterranean from April 1799, captured by HMS Flora on 28 April 1799.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Both useful, particularly Jeune Adele. It is unusual that we have useful info from the Caribbean. I have added the info to the two articles. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:01, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I was impressed to see how much you managed to gather about Légère, you have much more than Demerliac! Rama (talk) 12:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I have to credit Google, and particularity Google books. Regard, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Demerliac request 14 August 2023

Hi Rama, in 1798, A French privateer named Zeliee, or Zele, captured Betsey (1790 ship), and I am hoping that Demerliac has something on the privateer. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:24, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

In 1806, the privateer Guadaloupienne captured Ariadne. Does Demerliac have anything on Guadaloupienne?. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

• Zélé (no 2293, p.263), a privateer from Nantes commissioned in December 1798. Cruise from December 1798 under René-Joseph Salaun until captured by HMS Melpomene on 28 February 1799.
• Gouadeloupéenne: I have no ship of that name or close that matches the date, sorry.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:01, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. A 50% hit rate is not bad for what we are doing. By the way, how would you translate the phrase, "La Zele amarina La Charlotte"? I found a small reference to Zele in Nicolierre-Teijero's book on the Nantes corsairs, but am not sure how to translate that. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

"Zélé took possession of Charlotte". A rather special sense for "amariner" that few native speakers would know, assuming they would know that verb at all. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Thought so. Interestingly, neither Google translate nor Bing had any clue. So clearly, a very unusual use. Nicolierre-Teijero's book was published in 1896, and was specialized, so unsurprising that he used it. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:47, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of 203mm/55 Modèle 1931 gun

The article 203mm/55 Modèle 1931 gun has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This weapon did not exist, Conway's 1922-1946 and French Cruisers 1922-1956 all state Algerie only had the modele 1924. The only "modele 1931" is the turret mounting used on Algerie which is already mentioned in the modele 1924 article. And from going through a few books on the French cruisers, Naval Weapons of World War Two seems to be the only book that actually mentions its existence (Jane's Fighting Ships also mentions an improved gun, but doesn't provide any details other than "better shells and longer range", which the other 2 books (and even Naval Weapons) state is because of newly introduced shells in the late 1920s/early 1930s) and is probably the origin of this misconception

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