Misplaced Pages

User talk:Jimbo Wales

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sm8900 (talk | contribs) at 13:42, 2 July 2024 (→issue of movement charter, at village pump: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 13:42, 2 July 2024 by Sm8900 (talk | contribs) (→issue of movement charter, at village pump: Reply)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

    Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end.
    Start a new talk topic.
    Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.
    He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees.
    The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Rosiestep, Laurentius, Victoria and Pundit.
    The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt.
    This page is semi-protected and you will not be able to leave a message here unless you are a registered editor. Instead,
    you can leave a message here
    This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.
    Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 10 days 
    This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.
    Media mentionThis talkpage has been mentioned by a media organization:

    Centralized discussion
    Village pumps
    policy
    tech
    proposals
    idea lab
    WMF
    misc
    For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.

    The ADL is "generally unreliable"

    Due to a new RSN discussion (I just became aware of it), the Anti-Defamation League, one of the oldest and most prominent civil rights organizations, has been declared "generally unreliable" on Israel/Palestine issues. The ADL issued a statement saying this was the result of a ”campaign to delegitimize the ADL” and that editors opposing the ban “provided point by point refutations, grounded in factual citations, to every claim made, but apparently facts no longer matter.” This is being disseminated on the JTA, and is starting to be picked up by Israeli and Jewish newspapers. A pretty strong statement by the ADL, which tends to be fairly circumspect, and not exactly a ribbon in the hair of Misplaced Pages or the Foundation. Coretheapple (talk) 13:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

    CNN staff article: "Misplaced Pages now labels the top Jewish civil rights group as an unreliable source," so it has emerged from the "Jewish news" silo I mentioned earlier. However we all will be delighted to know that this is viewed as a slam on ADL's reputation, not Misplaced Pages's. Coretheapple (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
    From that CNN article: “ADL’s leadership has taken a much more aggressive stance than most academic researchers in blurring the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism,” said James Loeffler, professor of modern Jewish history at John Hopkins University. “It’s clear from reading the Misplaced Pages editors’ conversation that they are heavily influenced by the ADL leadership’s comments.” starship.paint (RUN) 01:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    I've read that article, also JTA, The Independent and The Forward. There seems to be some agreement among these that "The WP-hivemind may be on to something." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    I'm sure there will be more exposure, and of course the question will be whether one "likes" the ADL or "dislikes" it. If you are in the former camp you will not like what Misplaced Pages did. If you dislike the ADL you will be happy. That's where this stacks up. Coretheapple (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    I hope that attitude, which I agree is inevitable in many parts of the media, stays far away from our discussions of the issue. Liking or not liking, agreeing or disagreeing, is really a terrible way for anyone to decide whether a source is reliable, and not the way that Wikipedians approach it.Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    Jimbo, that's not my point exactly. Whatever we do in this area is read by the outside world, and this strikes me as a reputational self-goal. It may be fabulous, we may adore it, we may think it is the cat's pajamas, but that is what it is. Do we (as individual editors) care? We should not. But I think it is worthy of note. To me it's a bit reminiscent of how paid editing became an issue despite all Is being dotted and all Ts crossed. I recall engaging in quite a bit of argumentation over that, until I realized that I was dealing with a reputational self-goal. Coretheapple (talk) 16:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    With all due respect, I believe you are beginning to take this matter quite personally and are ignoring the fact that the consensus was reached with the aim of creating a better encyclopedia rather than pushing a specific point of view. Additionally, Misplaced Pages always faces challenges from many powerful entities like the Chinese and Russian governments. The criticism from the ADL doesn't make much difference in that regard. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 14:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    I come to Jimbo's talk page every ten years or so. Please be good enough to let me do so this decade without personal remarks. Thanks in advance. Coretheapple (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    "Every ten years or so" is a bit of an exaggeration... you've edited it twice as much as any other page, a full five percent (!) of your edits. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    I come to Jimbo's talk page far too frequently, twice as much as any other page, a full five percent of my edits. Please be good enough to let me do so without making personal remarks. Thanks in advance. Coretheapple (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

    The root cause is Misplaced Pages's over-generalization regarding sources. For wp:ver purposes, the standard needs to be context-specific: "expertise and objectivity with respect to the text which cited it" And a part of the over-generalization process is to pick a source that you don't like, find and highlight misstatements (which all sources make) which then opens them up to a political/"I don't like them" pseudo-vote and deprecation. The second issue is that the same standard/deprecation then excludes them from wp:weight considerations. With major sources excluded, this skews wp:weight-based content. North8000 (talk) 17:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

    In this instance, hostile, partisan sources that are recognized as reliable by the project were used to show unreliability. "Oh my goodness, The Nation thinks the ADL is unreliable!" What a shocker. Coretheapple (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    The systemic problem is that the system allows an overgeneralization (usable wiki-wide) to come out of such a politicized process. North8000 (talk) 21:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    The politicization of the process is the problem. Perhaps it is inevitable, but to simply circle the wagons and say "golly the community reached a consensus and all is right with the world" ignores reality. There is an outside world out there. The outside world doesn't see a "community." It sees the same few people on both sides, with the side having more numbers winning. That is the "community" that outsiders see and they are not imagining it. Coretheapple (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    I would like to politely ask you to walk peacefully away from this discussion, as you are effectively labeling the Wikimedia community as "detached from the outside world" in your latest message. I see this as a very counterproductive characterization. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 22:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for being polite. Courtesy is important in this hurly-burly world. Coretheapple (talk) 11:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    I didn't see that in Coretheapple's post; those are your words. Including the context, IMO it was an assessment of how the community collectively operates on political matters. North8000 (talk) 13:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    You are reading into Coretheapple's words things that do not actually appear to be there, in a seemingly unproductive manner; and having already accused them of "taking the matter quite personally" I'd suggest perhaps considering taking your own advice about disengaging from the discussion. ⇒SWATJester 16:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    There might be some issues regarding over-generalization, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The close specifically mentioned "unreliability on the topic". WP:RS/P differentiates reliability per topic, such as the Fox News concern being related to politics and science, a detail that has been specifically mentioned in some of the news pieces posted here. CMD (talk) 07:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

    Some more comments: The Hill, NewsMax. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:14, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

    @Coretheapple: Those types of human issues are inevitable, so that's like saying that gravity is a cause of most airplane crashes. Most issues arise from multiple causes and we need to focus on the causes that we can change. In this case the noted systemic problem, a system which is too easily co-opted, and follows and amplifies those human shortcomings. North8000 (talk) 13:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    North8000, indeed during the COI and paid editing wars, which wasted massive amounts of my time some years back, co-opting is precisely what happened. Fortunately the Foundation stepped in on paid editing, though of course COI editing has continued and difficult to address. Ultimately I gave up on it because it was a hopeless situation and one that did not affect me personally, but was rather an issue of Misplaced Pages reputation and integrity. Coretheapple (talk) 13:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    OK, I will have to call something out here: NewsMax is deprecated on Misplaced Pages for pushing quackery. So, maybe it's not a good idea to link to them here. LilianaUwU 06:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Since WP-readers will see and form opinions based on them and others, I think it's fair to mention them in this context too. WP articles will link NewsMax if the context is right, and I see no reason not linking them on this talkpage because quackery. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:44, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Er, WP articles will not link NewsMax, because it's deprecated for a good reason (i.e. its output couldn't be trusted to be true, and much of it was deliberately false). So I don't see any reason to link it here either. Black Kite (talk) 10:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    The Newsmax article in question contains an interview of ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt by Greta Van Susteren, and it's interesting for a number of reasons, among them by being an example of how non-Wikipedians are often quite understandably flummoxed by how Misplaced Pages works. He shows little grasp of Misplaced Pages editorial processes, and he excudes confidence in the decision being overturned that is of course misplaced. He says that the ADL was trying to "understand" what was going on. Good luck with that. Coretheapple (talk) 11:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    One article that links newsmax is the article about newsmax. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Linking to Newsmax was perfectly OK and it's appreciated. Coretheapple (talk) 13:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    All media outlets (with, perhaps, the partial exception of those with a legal duty for impartiality) display publication bias.Some of the commentary at the RSN, and here, seems to mix up this bias with unreliability. That is, tending to publish only content that supports one side or another of a position is a bias, but it doesn't mean that content is not reliable. However, I think it is pretty clear from reading the whole RSN discussion and checking linked evidence (and other unlinked material) that there needs to be caution in citing the ADL for the time being. It's a vain hope, but anyone working in the mainstream media who did the same thing - read and considered the whole discussion - would probably conclude this was a robust, thoughtful discussion with a supportable and correct conclusion. MarcGarver (talk) 07:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Is there any community consensus about the value of ratings such as the bias estimates published by organisations like AllSides? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    My concern is on how media and outsiders misleadingly characterize our consensus process. The Hill cited a tweet in which the user claimed that the consensus was reached "democratically", not much different from calling the process a "vote". -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 09:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    And now Greenblatt on MSNBC straight out labeling our consensus process a "blackbox".(Video on YouTube) -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 11:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC) 12:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Dead link. "This video isn't available anymore" error msg. I'd like to see the full video but if he calls it a "black box," that of course is absurd (everything is public). What's interesting to me about this MSNBC and Newsmas exposure is that the ADL is gearing up for a PR offensive, as I think it's reasonable to expect that the ongoing discussion in RSN will be adverse to ADL as well. Coretheapple (talk) 12:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    YT link fixed. Greenblatt's "blackbox" remark at 1:16 -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 12:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    An even more interesting interview. Generally sympathetic comments by the MSNBC people, and in it, Greenblatt says he's going to "explain to the leaders of Misplaced Pages" why this decision is wrong. Greenblatt, I think, knows perfectly well that Misplaced Pages has no "leaders," that the "leaders" are the so-called "community," and what I assume he is doing here is beginning a PR offensive aimed not at Misplaced Pages but the general public, and unless I miss my guess the ADL's aim will be to discredit Misplaced Pages. Reliability is an existential issue for the ADL. Coretheapple (talk) 13:04, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    Ironically, as pointed out by another editor in a parallel discussion to this, Greenblatt is the main part of the problem here. Prior to his statement in 2022 that any opposition to Israel was on the same antisemitic level as white supremacy, it was a pragmatic organisation. This is from January this year, but it's an interesting read. Black Kite (talk) 13:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
    That's a good point. Greenblatt has a personal stake in discrediting Misplaced Pages. The alternative is to accept that he has discredited the ADL! Coretheapple (talk) 13:12, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

    In my opinion the entire notion of "saints" and "sinners" in sourcing is ahistorical and erroneous. The "worst" publication may contain useful, factual information. The "best" publication can be wrong. What we are seeing with the current ADL leadership is political gamesmanship, a fairly obvious attempt to equate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism — which worked swell with the slandering of the UK Labour left a few years back, so there you go. Those obsessed with tarring sources as "unreliable" will play their own little games. Most of us have other things to do, fortunately. Carrite (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

    Some more commentary, The Forward: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

    Greenblatt is arguing that if you don’t have the leading organization in the world tracking anti-Semitism and our data on Misplaced Pages, anti-Semitism will continue to increase.' I.e. he is playing the card that the recent decision on wikipedia to consider his organization unreliable for the IP area will effectively contribute to the further rise of anti-Semitism. So 'a few editors' (COI: one of those he fingers is myself) will be directly responsible for any increment the ADL will observe about future surges in anti-Semitism. That is the sort of ballistic hyperbole which undermines the credibility of, not wikipedia, but its CEO. Nishidani (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
    "Immediately after the Misplaced Pages guidelines were shared, the ADL urged its supporters to petition the Misplaced Pages board to rescind the ruling, then dialed it back."
    Does anyone know what "dialed it back" refers to? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
    "In its attack on the Anti-Defamation League, Misplaced Pages is “stripping the Jewish community of the right to defend itself from the hatred that targets our community,” 43 Jewish organizations wrote to the Wikimedia Foundation board in a letter on Monday." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
    Who is responsible for writing this hysterical tripe? By what title do they insinuate they represent all Jews? I for one have long privileged citing Jewish/Israeli/diaspora scholarship on the IP area articles, because it is the most historically informed data base for the history of that area. That the cutting edge of such scholarship shares little ground with the official view of the conflict means essentially that we have, not a conflict between wikipedia and Jewish communitarian organizations, but an infra-Jewish set of disputes as to how best understand Judaism and Israel. (The ADL has a long record of smearing exemplary Jewish scholars whose works have contradicted the standardized narrative. Tony Judt, to cite one of dozens) Expostulations like the above are creating a false antithesis between 'Jews' and 'wikipedia' that is both inflammatory and contrafactual.
    Again, language like stripping the Jewish community of the right to defend itself' is inane in its speciousness. The right to self-defense is a constitutional one (except I would note, for Palestinians). The somewhat insidious implication here is that external organizations, having this perception, have a right to influence the way articles are written on wikipedia. Create such a precedent and any community could make the same representation, with the result that the random editors from all walks of life and professions who create wikipedia would have to take a back seat before a collective congeries of ethnic/national lobbies. Chaos.
    To appeal to the board once more after the February negotiations and compromise ended in a fiasco of incompetent complaining against targeted individuals, means ARBCOM must become not the consensually elected representative of all editors but a tertium quid responsive only to sectarian outside pressures. I.e.this wonderful if often messy experiment in the democratic constitution of an encyclopedic and global data base would abandon its autonomy and very raison d'être. Nishidani (talk) 19:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
    "If the Wikimedia Foundation were to order a reversal of the ADL’s downgrading, it would be equally staggering. The foundation does not intervene in editorial decisions by its community of editors, opting to trust the elaborate processes it has developed to seek consensus and resolve disputes. A reversal would in all likelihood garner a backlash from among the thousands of veteran editors, who are accustomed to autonomy and who have volunteered countless hours of their lives to run the online encyclopedia."
    This journalist knows something about their topic, I like that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
    Yes. The various remarks made by the ADL apropos this tiff show their total lack of familiarity with how practical editing on wiki works. Any editor, whatever their POV, knows that they're lucky if half of what they contribute survives intact, that extenuating negotiations where both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine positions are the norm, and compromise commonplace. A further point is that the I/P conflict is, notoriously, perhaps the most intensely studied one in the modern era, with a technical bibliography running to thousands of academic monographs, books and articles. The expertise we can call on is immense, and we don't miss anything (except for polemics and politics) in maintaining our RS bar very high. Nishidani (talk) 13:33, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
    What is this WhiteHatWiki? Pardon my ignorance. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 11:15, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
    I'm guessing https://whitehatwiki.com/. See User:BC1278 and . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages will not be neutral in a heated ethnic dispute where one side greatly outnumbers the other. One side inevitably "wins" the battle for what's true through sheer force of numbers. This is the problem with consensus: any such system can fall victim to a 51% attack. This is where some sort of expert moderation might be useful, but nobody has figured out how to implement such a thing. Jehochman 02:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know where you get the 'sheer force of numbers', or the contrafactual idea that one 'side' can always muster a majority. It is true that 99% of the scores and scores of sockpuppets that chronically marred the area and constituted improvised majorities in many critical resolutions came from just one partisan perspective, And by the way, for 20 years, the number of Palestinians editing this area has been close to zero. The last time I checked, 22 names mostly unfamiliar to me had registered as being of Palestinian ethnicity, but that was yonks ago.Nishidani (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
    I purposefully did not refer to either side in my comment because it applies equally well in both directions. Whoever musters the most participating accounts (real or fake) can swing the consensus to their liking. This remains a problem with Misplaced Pages and more research is needed to find new and effective approaches. Jehochman 15:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
    Muster implies a musterer, which in turn suggests a coordinator ringing in people to turn up and vote or comment. I can vividly remember something like this suggested such a thing was going on quite often in the good old days (before 500/30 was introduced). These days regular editors on all 'sides' have virtually all the same pages bookmarked so there is nothing anomalous going on when a consensus based on numbers (not necessarily on cogent comments) emerges favouring one call over another. I'll confess that I've often found myself on the loosing 'side' in an edit disagreement, where I've thought the evidence for my view was quite strong and have been frustrated by the failure of other editors to step in and balance things. One can't rope them in. So, patience, one just has to accept that others with a similar view can't see the point, or are not interested in that page. Stiff cheddar.
    The articles will always be somewhat 'conflicted', but that is not due to the vying for supremacy of various POV covens. It is in the nature of the conflict itself, which is irresolvable because the two POVs in the sources speak different languages. What is significant to one, is risible to the other. The ADF, an organization I have long admired (and said so, in the recent discussion on its utility) is eminently reliable when it deals with a minority in American society that is or has been subject to discrimination. It fails to see what critics note, that Jews in the US are a minority, like Afro-Americans, and require the defense and protection the ADL supplies but in the State of Israel, Jews are the dominant majority, and, in the settler extensions of the state over another population's territory, it is the Palestinians who are an abused and derided minority, since they lack civil rights (the parallels with Afro-American history, where Jewish progressives played a key role in mustering resistance to segregation, are striking). It follows that, were they coherent, they would not, as they insistently do, parallel antisemitism suffered by Jews in the United States, with the ostensible 'antisemitism' of 'anti-Zionists', whose general brief is to apply the same criteria the ADL uses to defend minority groups in the US to the Palestinians which Israel's occupational discriminatory practices afflict. The different languages consist in (a) one side conflating Israelis with diaspora Jews in a single category, so that mutatis mutandis what applies to one applies to the other and (c) the other side insisting that the two are distinct, that the state of Israel is one thing (a nation-state to be adjudicated in terms of how history analyses any such entity regardless of the ethnicity) and the Jewish people another (where grasping their long and tragic plight as a minority subject to the torments of hate and prejudice as a victimized group within a zenophobic majority is fundamental to any reading of Jewish diasporic history). Apologies for the longueur, but I've had to read too many newspaper articles on this ADL contretemps that are vigorously thoughtless) Nishidani (talk) 16:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
    • Can anyone give the diff for an actual edit in Misplaced Pages where the ADL has been used as a source for false or misleading information? Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 09:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    That's not what it is about. You pick a media that you don't like, find something where they said it wrong, and use that as a basis for a political vote to deprecate them. :-) North8000 (talk) 11:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    That is a personal attack, not responding to the merits of an observation but to the motives you impute to the editor you disagree with. Strike it out.Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    I didn't interpret it as a personal attack on me. I think it was a criticism of how ADL was deprecated by some editors on Misplaced Pages.
    Since you're here, can you offer the diff that I requested? Or can anyone else? Thanks again. Bob K31416 (talk) 14:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    Not 'by some editors' and, as far as I know, the ADL was not 'deprecated', which would be deprecable. The ADL'S reliability for the I/P was judged questionable by the majority of editors who participated in a RfC. Nishidani (talk) 14:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    It's looking like the Anti-defamation League has been defamed by some editors in Misplaced Pages. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

    A goat for you!

    Real G.O.A.T Greatest of All Time

    Eduworldedu (talk) 06:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

    A pastel de queijo for you!

    A pastel de queijo for you!
    As i a Brazilian and live in Brazil. I can give you a Pastel de Queijo from Sampa. I give it a Pastel de Queijo because..... You are Jimbo who created the nice website, the Misplaced Pages! :D Vitorperrut555 (talk) 15:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

    Inside the war over Israel at Misplaced Pages

    https://jewishinsider.com/2024/06/wikipediai-israeli-palestinian-conflict-zionism-adl-encyclopedia/

    Additional context: https://www.thefp.com/p/wikipedia-anti-defamation-league-reliable-source Winter queen lizzie (talk) 03:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

    Another Jewish source frames our consensus as a majority vote. 🤦‍♂️ Perhaps the Foundation can clarify this in their next statement regarding ADL. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 07:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

    Wikimedia Commons POTY

    Don't let that project die! ArionStar (talk) 10:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

    we have 6 months left... ltbdl (talk) 12:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

    Context: lack of support for Wikimedia Commons

    Here's the context: For many years POTY has run on an obscure, poorly documented set of scripts. It seems like everyone who dares take the project on winds up getting burned out for one reason or another. That has happened yet again. We've cut it close a few times over the years, having the contest at the very end of the year (nearly two years after some of the candidates were promoted to FP), and ltbdl is correct that we still have some months left before panic is necessary.

    But... it's emblematic of the state of technology over at Commons. POTY is a program that gets a large part of our community excited to participate, attracts voters from a vast range of projects, inevitably attracts some amount of press attention, and motivates users to contribute their own photos... and it's a terrible system which burns out users who volunteer their time to make it happen.

    Fun fact: the WMF's annual plan includes nothing set aside for Commons in 2024-2025. Following concerns expressed over that fact, a discussion on Commons seems to suggest that the WMF does not view Commons as worth investment because it does not sufficiently achieve certain metrics the WMF holds as most important (that's my perhaps uncharitable interpretation, of course).

    As I said in that thread, I can empathize with the fact that the Commons community (not unlike the Misplaced Pages community) is not an easy one to serve, but it is the second biggest Wikimedia community and the largest free media repository in the world -- one built on software whose clumsiness as a media management system has been partly alleviated by a patchwork of scripts, bots, and gadgets developed and maintained by users who inevitably burn out, leaving broken tools that disrupt basic systems. And why shouldn't they burn out? Commons has a big userbase, but far less technical expertise than enwp or Wikidata, putting a lot of burden on a small number of volunteers with inadequate help from the foundation. — Rhododendrites \\ 14:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

    "the WMF's annual plan includes nothing set aside for Commons in 2024-2025." Seriously? Words fail (as does the WMF). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:11, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    Randy, given that the annual plan is currently in drafting stage, it is melodramatic and unproductive to say that the WMF has failed here. Now's the time to positively get involved helping to adjust the plan to make sure things don't get lost in the shuffle. Also see: https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/Product_and_Technology_Advisory_Council/Proposal --Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
    Can you drop a link to the scripts, if available? Might be able to recruit technical volunteers if some info on the scripts is provided. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:10, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    @Novem Linguae: I think the most recent version is here (and see also Lego's POTY-Stuff). Courtesy ping to Legoktm, who did a lot of work to set this up and run the last two of these. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

    In early 2022, the WMF CEO explicitly acknowledged the sorry state of Commons and our community's needs featured prominently in the 2022-2023 annual plan. The Commons community followed this up with an open letter, with 468 signatures to-date encouraging further investment and outlining some specific needs/concerns. Looked like a promising future for Commons!

    Based on all that enthusiasm going right up to the top, we got ... ... some changes to the questions and style/flow of the upload wizard.

    Don't get me wrong -- those changes to the upload wizard are welcome, but... that's it? There are rumors of a possible logo detection tool sometime in the future, too, which will be nice, but color me underwhelmed. The last big development project, Structured Data on Commons, which began how many years ago, is still just partially done. But now it's time to turn away from Commons with a "mission complete"?

    I do not think I could be confused with the chronic anti-WMF crowd around here, and I have a lot of empathy for the social and technical challenges foundation staff have to deal with when engaging with the community, but I continue to be amazed at how little the foundation cares about Commons. — Rhododendrites \\ 15:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

    I am more radical on the issue: I propose a total blackout on Commons images until the situation is resolved. ArionStar (talk) 16:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    So, that'd be extremely immature, premature, and unproductive. It's not even a helpful starting point for dialogue as it sets up an "us versus them" battleground mentality that is completely at odds with the facts on the ground. How about I propose you do something even more radical: get involved in the annual planning process. Not as easy as grandstanding, but far more rewarding! Also see: https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/Product_and_Technology_Advisory_Council/Proposal --Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
    You know, with all the ideas ready for funding, including the Commons ideas mentioned above, maybe it's about time that the WMF gave the projects 20 million or so to do with what they want (Rhododendrites, what would the total cost be for what Commons regulars asked for?). These projects and ideas would have to be presented, discussed, and voted upon (for instance, I've often opined for more funding for regional conferences, such as the North American Wikimedia Conference which, Santa willing, should have at least one full sit-down evening dinner with entertainment and events in addition to more scholarships). The presentation of functional ideas would lend to a debate of what is best for the readers, the projects, and for their communities - Wikimedia's volunteer base. 20 million, a number picked out of thin air, would be a good start. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    I am not the right person to ask about the cost of software. What you're describing sounds a bit like a proposal that's gotten some support in the past: to allocate a minimum amount or percentage of money to the Community Wishlist (formerly known as the Community Wishlist). — Rhododendrites \\ 13:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks, and thanks for the Wishlist comment. Has the WMF adequately funded the most agreed-upon ideas at the Wishlist? Randy Kryn (talk) 11:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
    Take it as a given that I think that commons is crucial to our movement and should be well-funded. For me, looking at things from the perspective of process, what I'd like to have is a better understanding of is the mismatch between desired funding and the actual funding in the annual plan, and a thoughtful and kind (assume good faith) look at the process. For those reading along casually, note that the 2024-2025 annual plan is currently in draft stage and so this discussion should not be about recriminations about why something wasn't done, it should be proactive and positive: what can be added, how can it be defined. Now is the right time for people to do this. Also see: https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/Product_and_Technology_Advisory_Council/Proposal
    If I had a magic wand I could wave, I'd love to see all of commons software rewritten from the ground up to support the work flows that are important there, rather than using a hodgepodge of community-maintained workaround scripts and tools that are hard to maintain. But, I don't have a magic wand, and I am not personally knowledgeable enough to know how to get from here to there effectively.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

    issue of movement charter, at village pump

    hi Jimbo. one small request, can you please read the discussion regarding the Movement Charter, at the Village Pump Policy tab? I have commented there at length, and many other have commented on this issue as well. Sm8900 (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

    Interesting timing, as I just spent a lot of time reading about this on meta, but haven't read this particular discussion. Will do so now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
    @Jimbo Wales that's terrific. thanks. my main comments appear in the subsection labeled "section 3." appreciate your reply, and your time and attention for this. thanks! Sm8900 (talk) 13:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
    Category: