This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Stephen Bain (talk | contribs) at 06:10, 17 April 2005 (→VfD Tag is Inappropriate per wikipedia policy). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 06:10, 17 April 2005 by Stephen Bain (talk | contribs) (→VfD Tag is Inappropriate per wikipedia policy)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)Note: Other relevent comments may exist at Talk:Free_Republic. Consider reading that page, too, before taking any brash action.
Please consider discussing before deleting-Casito 07:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I didn't delete, I redirected after merging all content into the Free Republic page. My apologies for being bold. That said, you are free to chime in on the Talk:Free Republic page if you so wish. --Jonathan Christensen 08:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Repost of the message from the FR discussion forum. All further discussions of this, if any, need to take place here.
- JC - the only person who seems to be acting unilaterally on this matter is you. You've unilaterally merged the page itself twice now with little to no discussion at all, though others have asked you to discuss that on Talk:Jim_Robinson. Showing up on the talk page and saying the equivalent of "yeah, but i'm gonna do it anyway" is not a discussion. As it stands right now there seem to be three people who favor leaving it as it was with only you proposing to merge it, yet you plow right ahead with the merge unilaterally. As for common wikipedia policy on people who are well known for their websites having separate articles, I direct you to a couple well known examples:
- The Daily Kos blog and owner Markos Moulitsas Zúniga
- The Drudge Report and owner Matt Drudge
- The Little Green Footballs blog and owner Charles Johnson
- Power Line (blog) and its owners John_H._Hinderaker and Scott_W._Johnson
- Based upon these precedents, it seems that a separate article here would be both appropriate and in keeping with wikipedia formatting policy. I have restored the previous article and removed your redirect on this basis. I will also post a copy of this comment on the discussion forum there. If you still support a change in which the articles are merged, then YOU need to go over there and make your case for it on that discussion section rather than acting unilaterally and turning talking only after the change you desire is done. Thanks for understanding. Rangerdude 16:49, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- For the time being, I shall comment here. First, there are several factual errors in your interpretation I would like to point out. For starters, you state that the only person acting unilaterally was me. Hardly! I initially merged the pages in keeping with the WP:BB policy. If others didn't like it, they might have reverted it and tried to discuss it. Did they? Perhaps a look at the summary Wakeforest left when he reverted the Free Republic page will be enlightening:
- (don't agree leave page alone or you'll be blocked)
- Oh, but that's not at all unilateral, is it? Here's a brand new user account (Wakeforest had neither a user page or a talk page at the time he made that revert; he created his user page with no meaningful content soon after, and I created his talk page), probably a sock puppet--he shows some knowledge of Misplaced Pages, if he is seemingly entirely ignorant of proper processes--threatening to block me if I edit the page at all. Why? Because he doesn't agree with me. But that'snot unilateral, is it, Rangerdude? No, of course not.
- After he made that comment, I decided that the best thing to do would be to discuss it. So I asked a question on his talk page:
- Hey, what's up with the Free Republic page? "leave page alone or you'll be blocked?" Who do you think you are? If you disagree, we can discuss it. Otherwise, I will be forced to take this to arbitration. --Jonathan Christensen 07:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oooh, that's pretty unilateral, isn't it? I dunno, I guess Wakeforest had better keep on being nice and accepting, since I was being soooo unilateral. This is what I got in response:
- Who do I think I am?
- Not relevant to a little person as yourself.
- I have warned you once. You won't get a second warning before you are blocked and hard-banned. Wakeforest 07:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Once again, it's clear that Wakeforest is absolutely not being unilateral, isn't it. I mean, isn't it? It isn't? Oh dear, what am I to do?
- So what does the oh-so unilateral JC do? Why, he asks Wakeforest for an explanation, once again:
- Since when do you have the ability to block and hardban me, and why should I be blocked or hardbanned? I've posted a comment on that talk page; unless you explain yourself reasonable, I will take this to RfC immediately. --Jonathan Christensen 07:49, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Damn him and his unilateral ways, asking people to explain themselves not once, but twice! After 25 minutes without any kind of response or action on Wakeforest's part--strange, IMHO, for someone who was just about to hardban me--I once again merged the page, figuring him to be some sort of obscene sockpuppet joke.
- Now that that is out of the way, we can turn to more relevant matters. First, you claim there are at least three people in favor of keeping it as two seperate articles; in fact, I count at most two, you and wakeforest (who, as I noted earlier, is most likely a sockpuppet--his only edits are reverting the changes I made, creating his user page with a singly comma on it, and threatening me on my user page). Although one other person edited this page soon after Wakeforst reverted it, they have yet to weigh in on either side of the discussion, although I invited them to do so. If or when they do, perhaps you can say three.
- Second, in all the other cases you cite those pages have information which certainly does not belong on the main site page, and merits a page for that particular person. Although Markos Moulitsas Zúniga is a small page, that biographical material certainly does not belong on his blog's page. Drudge's page has its merits merely in its size, though some of it is surely duplicated on the Drudge Report page. No matter. Charles Johnson's page has other material as well, such as his career as a jass guitarist. This page has no such material; all of it, apart from the two sentences at the top, clearly belongs in the Free Republic article, and even those might be debated.
- So, I need to go over where now to make my case? Perhaps I need to join the Society of Unilateralists, or the Society of Sock Puppeteers, so that I can make my case more effectively, as Wakeforest obviously seems to have convinced you that way?
- Please, get a clue about what is actually going on here. Or are you going to threaten to hardban me now for disagreeing with you? --Jonathan Christensen 19:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- JC - Your response to an attempt at discussion is unnecessarily combative in tone. Misplaced Pages works on consensus, not flame wars. Contrary to your indications, others DID try to discuss the issue here above after you came along and changed the article - see Casito's post to you "Please consider discussing before deleting." Your response was to neglect his request for a explanation of your changes, send him over to the FR discussion page, and go right ahead with those changes unimpeded and without any genuine consideration of the requests that had been made of you. That is the definition of unilateral action. Misplaced Pages operates around consensus, and quite frankly the consensus to date is NOT with you on this issue. It is plainly evident from your post that you have some sort of previous issue with Wakeforest that I'd prefer not to tread into. Come back when you're mature enough to engage in a polite discussion of the proper placement of this article absent your disposition toward combative rantings and unilateral changes against the consensus. Rangerdude 00:05, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From RFC
Hmm. This looks to have been unpleasant. Personally I don't see any problem with a redirect; this person is only notable for his involvement with the Website, which has its own page. Information on the author of the Website can go there. I probably would've just put it up for VfD. · Katefan0 19:46, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, and this probably goes without saying, but it's not very polite to make threats about banning someone just because you disagree with something they did editorially. (Not to mention pretending to have the power to ban someone in the first place.) · Katefan0 20:59, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
The source of the unpleasantness to date has been JC, who unilaterally changed the article at a time when there was no consensus to do so. Going by how similar website/website author articles have been formed (see the examples I gave above) it seems perfectly proper to split them into two articles in keeping with how other situations like this have been handled. Rangerdude 00:05, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Creating a redirect in this situation -- as opposed to ridiculously empty threats about banning someone over an editorial disagreement -- seems much less unpleasant. As to the rest, I suppose if someone were invested in the article it would seem unpleasant for someone to create a redirect and merge the information in another article, but Misplaced Pages asks us to assume good faith. It also says to be bold. On the other hand, it was perfectly OK for someone with a disagreement to revert his edit. So far everybody's playing well together. The proper thing to do then becomes discussing the redirect/revert on talk pages; unfortunately the person who reverted his edit instead let his or her temper get the better of him and began making empty threats about banning in a laughable attempt to get his way. As for prior precedents, personally I don't think this person and this publication rise to the same level of notability as something like Drudge Report or Daily Kos. I don't claim to be the ultimate arbiter of such things, but I've heard of all the others you mentioned -- but not this one. Perhaps this is best decided as part of a VfD vote where it will attract more opinions, as was my initial thought. Just my two cents. · Katefan0 03:11, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Once again, I do not know why that user threatened a banning or whatever else he did. From the looks of things those two users have past issues. My attention is concerned with this article, and JC's response to several simple and polite requests that he explain himself rather than acting unilaterally was unnecessarily combative and accusitory. His edit was reverted because at least three people, myself included, voiced disagreement with it and with the unilateral manner in which he went about conducting it despite requests to engage the issue in a consensus-oriented discussion. As to your comments on this site author, Free Republic is actually a larger and better travelled website than all of the other examples save Drudge. The "well I haven't heard of him" standard doesn't leave much to go by, and those who have heard of him seem to be recognizing his importance for a separate article. Also, regarding a VfD, I don't think this option should be sought unless more substantive differences are exercised here. Just because some random user comes along and decides to make a major change to a developing article without justifying it doesn't mean we have to immediately poll all of wikipedia to resolve it. Let's use a little common sense here before taking it to a higher level. Rangerdude 16:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Personally, I think VfD is the commonsense next step unless more people notice the RfC. RfC doesn't always attract a lot of attention. Currently we're stalemated, for instance. · Katefan0 20:54, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Once again, I do not know why that user threatened a banning or whatever else he did. From the looks of things those two users have past issues. My attention is concerned with this article, and JC's response to several simple and polite requests that he explain himself rather than acting unilaterally was unnecessarily combative and accusitory. His edit was reverted because at least three people, myself included, voiced disagreement with it and with the unilateral manner in which he went about conducting it despite requests to engage the issue in a consensus-oriented discussion. As to your comments on this site author, Free Republic is actually a larger and better travelled website than all of the other examples save Drudge. The "well I haven't heard of him" standard doesn't leave much to go by, and those who have heard of him seem to be recognizing his importance for a separate article. Also, regarding a VfD, I don't think this option should be sought unless more substantive differences are exercised here. Just because some random user comes along and decides to make a major change to a developing article without justifying it doesn't mean we have to immediately poll all of wikipedia to resolve it. Let's use a little common sense here before taking it to a higher level. Rangerdude 16:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't see what you describe as a stalemate. Right now I see (1) a user who is angry over the fact that his attempts to merge the articles were reverted and met objections from not one but several editors, most of whom he's essentially shunned to pursue personal issues with one over events that happened on the Free Republic article (2) you, apparently voicing the belief that it should be merged, and (3) four users who have indicated that it should be separate in some form, myself among them. Given these circumstances, it does not seem that this article is suffering from a lack of attention nor does there appear to be a "stalemate" (4 is larger than 2). Nor does there seem to be anybody seriously making the case why a merger is necessary, though I have made an extensive case based on other precedents that support having two separate articles. If you'd like to resolve this then by all means make your case. But jumping to a VfD before that's even happened and in the seeming deficit of other supporters for whatever your position may be is not the solution at this time Rangerdude 21:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, I take that back -- three people who are for separate articles and two against (I forgot to include the original reverter). Not sure who you count as a fourth but it doesn't look like it matters. Mea culpa. · Katefan0 21:35, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't see what you describe as a stalemate. Right now I see (1) a user who is angry over the fact that his attempts to merge the articles were reverted and met objections from not one but several editors, most of whom he's essentially shunned to pursue personal issues with one over events that happened on the Free Republic article (2) you, apparently voicing the belief that it should be merged, and (3) four users who have indicated that it should be separate in some form, myself among them. Given these circumstances, it does not seem that this article is suffering from a lack of attention nor does there appear to be a "stalemate" (4 is larger than 2). Nor does there seem to be anybody seriously making the case why a merger is necessary, though I have made an extensive case based on other precedents that support having two separate articles. If you'd like to resolve this then by all means make your case. But jumping to a VfD before that's even happened and in the seeming deficit of other supporters for whatever your position may be is not the solution at this time Rangerdude 21:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- These two users do not have past issues, because the other user did not exist in the past. He was created solely for the purpose of threatening to ban me. I'd be very interested to know who's puppet he was, however. Perhaps I should see if I can get any help on that. Second, my edit was reverted because the owner of this puppet (this puppeteer) disagreed with me and wanted to ban me, not because three people coived disagreements and wanted to discuss it. Perhaps you need to work the chronology out... --Jonathan Christensen 17:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Whatever issue it may be between you and him, take it somewhere else. This discussion is about the design and placement of this article, not a forum for you to whine about whoever you think has wronged you. As I noted previously, come back when you're mature enough to engage in a polite discussion of the proper placement of this article absent your disposition toward combative rantings and unilateral changes against the consensus. Rangerdude 20:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- See, it's impossible to take it somewhere else, because the user account effectively doesn't anymore. It's called a sockpuppet. You may have have heard the word before. But, this will now go on VfD, because here, at least, you insist on repeatedly turning the discussion towards me rather than the matter in question. Perhaps there you might be able restrain yourself from personal attacks? --Jonathan Christensen 06:44, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Whatever issue it may be between you and him, take it somewhere else. This discussion is about the design and placement of this article, not a forum for you to whine about whoever you think has wronged you. As I noted previously, come back when you're mature enough to engage in a polite discussion of the proper placement of this article absent your disposition toward combative rantings and unilateral changes against the consensus. Rangerdude 20:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- These two users do not have past issues, because the other user did not exist in the past. He was created solely for the purpose of threatening to ban me. I'd be very interested to know who's puppet he was, however. Perhaps I should see if I can get any help on that. Second, my edit was reverted because the owner of this puppet (this puppeteer) disagreed with me and wanted to ban me, not because three people coived disagreements and wanted to discuss it. Perhaps you need to work the chronology out... --Jonathan Christensen 17:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There you go again, JC. You cannot seem to even move beyond your personal disputes with that other editor (and I don't care who or what he may have been - this is no place for a pissing match), nor do you seem to offer any reason in support of your position. Rangerdude 04:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think this can do with being a separate article, it is about as notable as other examples given. ObsidianOrder 06:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
VfD Tag is Inappropriate per wikipedia policy
As noted on the VfD discussion page started by JC, his use of this tag is inappropriate for this article and in violation of wikipedia policy. As I understand it, JC wishes to merge this article with another. Misplaced Pages's policy on candidates VfD's - found at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_policy - explicitly EXCLUDES merger requests from article disputes that should be resolved by this mechanism. Barring any subsequent justification for it, the VfD tag should be removed for the reason that it misuses this option. Rangerdude 04:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps the first time, yes, but there have already been two merges conducted on this page ( and ) but these have been reverted. Therefore I think it appropriate to put it to the community to decide. --bainer 06:10, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)