Talk:Moors - Misplaced Pages

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Moor from Mauri

I frankly don't understand why this article is separated from the one for Mauri, since the word Moor is originally from Mauri, which was used by Romans, and by the native Mauri (inhabitants of the Kingdom of Mauretania and the Roman provinces that ensued from them) to designate themselves, indicating as Gabriel Camps suggests that it may be originally a Berber word that went into Greek then Latin. The claim of the first paragraph of the article that it was an "exonym" in that sense, is not accurate, and much less is the claim that it was an equivalent of Muslim. The term was and remained much more strongly associated with Northwest Africa and its proxy regions (e.g. Andalusia) than any other place, and a cursory search in the literature is sufficient indication, that it was mainly a geographical term that was sometimes abused and generalized, but most often retained its original significance (check the number of hits for "Moorish Morocco" vs "Moorish Egypt" or any other region, on Google Books or Google Scholar for instance). --Ideophagous (talk) 10:23, 03 April 2021 (UTC+2)

Any reason dark skinned moors are not mentioned or depicted?

Considering the prevalence of dark-skinned Moors in European art and the historical use of the term to describe individuals with dark complexions, why are there no depictions of dark-skinned Moors? It seems like a significant omission in their history, don't you agree? Araptesot (talk) 18:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Because it's an afrocentrist POV that we are duty-bound to disregard as pseudo-historical woo? SinoDevonian (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Eurocentric is just as bad and racist because it’s harmful to the knowledge of African history and the straight up denial over pretty much black history in general. I still remember people saying Masa Mufa was white or kingdoms in sub Sahara Africa were ruled by whites or Muslims. I don’t like Afrocentric but Eurocentric is cancer 2601:8C:B80:6660:DA9:9CD8:D4A7:B44B (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but his dosn'nt make any sensenl.

I'm sorry but his dosn'nt make any sense.

"Afrocentrisim" is a concept that didn't exist until the late 19th century.

I get that you don't like the historical record and don't want to show what you don't agree with, but it is incoherent (at best) to say that anything you don't like is '

"Afrocentrisim" when most of what you don't like comes from non-Africans across a b

"Afrocentrisim" when most of what you don't like comes from non-Africans across a non-African cobtineb

"Afrocentrisim" when most of the historical record in question that you don't like comes from non-Africans centuries before the concept of 'Afrocebtrism' even existed. 98.231.70.155 (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I think any discussion here should be based on the fact that there is no such thing as a moor - at least not one well-defined group that is properly designated that way. Hence, this is an article about a word, and who it has been applied to, and how, and by whom. Eurocentrism is a significant part of the word, and of course should be exposed. Nø (talk) 08:29, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Nø is correct. Carlstak (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

THAT being said, I think it is true that the term "moor", in addition to (or besides?) identifying someone as muslim, also may identify them as black; e.g., Shakespeare's Othello (mentioned in the popular culture section) is genreally seens as black, and traditionally was played by a white actor in blackface. Also, a google image search on "moor" will (when it comes to pictures of people) mostly bring up paintings of black people. I do not have knowledge, sources or time to include this properly in the article, but it is odd that such depictiions are currently absent. Nø (talk) 12:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The depictions are absent because they are old European nonsense. The moors (predominantly Berbers and Arabs) were neither white nor black. M.Bitton (talk) 12:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The word Moor is (mostly) old European nonsense. We should descirbe and expose this nonsense; it is the subject of this article. If a high school students comes across a painting of a black person called "A Moor", or comes across the character Othello, and wants to know what that is about, this article should provide an answer. Otherwise, what is this article about? Nø (talk) 13:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The word Moor is not nonsense. As the lead sentence says: it's an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages (the designated Muslim populations are what the article is about). M.Bitton (talk) 13:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Moor is not the correct modern encyclopaedic designation for any ethnic, religious, geographical, historical or national group. Therefore, what Misplaced Pages may have to say about each of the groups you refer to, as such, belongs in other articles. Nø (talk) 14:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Is the article's topic an English-language exonym, a multi-language set of similar exonyms and cognates used by Christian Europeans, or a specific otherness underpinned by the aforementioned set of exonyms? It may come across as pedantic, but I can't help but frowning upon the opening sentence. "Christian Europeans" are not primarily English speakers, and moor is an English-language word.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Mawali/Moors: What has happened to my complexion

His-storians: The same thing that happened to Cham ben Noah, Moshe ben Amram, Yeshua ben Yosep, Dravidians, Sumerians, pharaonic & kemetic dynasties of Nubia and Kush, Olmecs, Mayans, so of course Berbers 155.135.55.231 (talk) 22:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you aware that the word 'history' does not actually mean 'his story'. Ario1234 (talk) 09:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If anyone has access to JSTOR here are some articles about African (Black) moors that might be helpful. https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=blackamoor Hoodoowoman (talk) 18:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Hoodoowoman

Also I found on wikimedia commons historical painted images now in photos of blackmoors from the 17th century and 18th century in Europe. https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:T%C3%AAte_de_Maure.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Peter_Paul_Rubens_-_Four_Studies_of_a_Head_of_a_Moor_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Gaspar_de_Crayer_-_Head_Study_of_a_Young_Moor_-_WGA5741.jpg Don't know if this will help someone who is interested in writing a section about Blackmoors in the article.Hoodoowoman (talk) 19:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Hoodoowoman

@Hoodoowoman: please don't give UNDUE weight to "blackamoor" (whatever that means). M.Bitton (talk) 19:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I am confused that's what the source says and it's already in the article in the Heraldry section? I am not giving weight to it, just saying how the word moor had different meanings. Is it racially offensive according to present times? I just need more explanations? What about "white moors" in the article? Take that out also? Hoodoowoman (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Of course you are giving UNDUE weight to something called "blackamoor". The word moor may have different meanings, but the article is about the meaning that everyone knows and expects. The Moors had a civilization, a culture, a language, music, architecture, etc., none of which has anything to do with skin colour (certainly, not a black one).

Which white Moor are you referring to? Please be specific. M.Bitton (talk) 20:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I will remove both Hoodoowoman (talk) 20:11, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

You're being evasive. Remove what exactly and why? M.Bitton (talk) 20:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I meant what I edited today that you said don't give weight. What I edited today was removed. I checked the view history and someone else removed what I wrote in the article with sources, text and images removed. Hoodoowoman (talk) 20:21, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was removed because it's clearly UNDUE. For instance, take this image that you added to the top of the article: would anyone consider it to be representative of the Moors? Of course not. We have many contemporary depictions of the Moors that look nothing like it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there were no black people among the Moors, that is simply impossible as they have been part of the scene for millennia, but when one thinks of the Moors or the Romans, a black person is not what springs to mind.

The same goes for "blackamoor", a term used by Elizabethans to describe west Africans during the slave trade. Is that what leaps to mind when you think of the Moors and their language, religion, art, science, etc.? M.Bitton (talk) 21:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

When I think of moor I think of diversity and culture such as food, language, music, people who are (were in the past) Muslims of any ethnicity or from a certain region, and how the word was used in the past to describe dark skinned people. However the dark skin definition is not used today. Today it has a different meaning, I was just trying to explain how the word was used in the past. I am trying to find reliable sources to say how Africans were a part of Moorish history and culture besides the slave trade. But I will not edit the article, I was just trying to make the article inclusive.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors Hoodoowoman (talk) 22:07, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, let's please not conflate racist European artwork and dubious associated terms with the subject here. The connection is tenuous beyond the name. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Moor Means Black

Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary Of The English Language (1755, online version) definition of Moor:

MOOR. n.s.

1. A marsh; a fen; a bog; a tract of low and watry grounds.

2. A negro; a black-a-moor.

"I shall answer that better than you can the getting up of the negro’s belly; the moor is with child by you. Shakesp." 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:85E2:BDCB:637:D9D5 (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

What change to the article do you have in mind?

Please note that "moor" is a word of uncertain etymology and with varying denotations and connotations in different contexts, which is (or should be) the subject of this article.Nø (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem is, there is one connotation that is glaringly missing from the article page. There are many moorish cultural traditions in Europe, from morris dancing to zwarte piet in Holland.

The article could include Saint Maurice. (Atlanta Black Star) Moors, Saints, Knights and Kings: The African Presence in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. Also here: (SMITHSONIAN MAG) Not All the Knights of the Round Table Were White.

On Sir Morien: “He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven.”. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:B5AA:96B:F68F:4FF5 (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Moor doesn't mean black. There are historical references to white Moors and black Moors. These terms are still used in Mauritania today, where the 'white Moors' are Berbers/Arabs who rule the country and 'black Moors' are descendants of black slaves. Ario1234 (talk) 01:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Saint Maurice was an Egyptian. He's depicted as white and black in historical artworks. In Egypt the Copts depict him as white. Ario1234 (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if that were the case, why are there no depictions of Black Moors on the page, at all? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

There's a couple of depictions of black Moors. But it's true the existence of black Moors isn't properly addressed or explained. Ario1234 (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

It looks like previous editors of the page wanted to push back against the conspiracy theory that the Moors were black and that modern North Africans are just recent invaders. Ario1234 (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Now you're implying that Samuel Johnson is an 'Afrocentrist' conspiracy theorist. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No, but selectively citing a source like Samuel Johnson and ignoring other evidence is the sort of thing that conspiracy theorists do. Ario1234 (talk) 02:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually you're projecting your own agenda onto others. You are very selectively ignoring the massive depiction of Moors as Black. And how is citing Samuel Johnson's dictionary definitions of Moor 'selectively citing a source'? Is there evidence that Samuel Johnson elsewhere said the moors were White that I'm ignoring? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

A Problematic Start To The Article

"The term Moor is an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages."

This is demonstrably untrue. The Moors were often depicted as Christians, especialy Saint Maurice.

What is going on here is 1) the obfuscation of the presence of Black Africans in Europe and 2) the conflation of the terms Moor, Berber and Muslim. This is Christian Europeans depicting Saint Maurice, as a Moor, not long after Moorish rule ended in Spain, in 1491 with the Treaty of Grenada:

Matthias Grünewald, Saints Erasmus and Mauritius, 1520-1524

Saint Maurice, 1525

"Originally the wing of an altarpiece, this panel represents Maurice, the Roman legion commander martyred for refusing to slaughter Christians. It was likely commissioned by Cardinal Albrecht of Brandenburg (1490–1545), the most powerful prelate in the Holy Roman Empire...". Notice that the lifelike depiction in these and many other paintings proves the presence of African people in Europe in the early 1500s.

Why is this image from the 'Arab Agricultural Revolution' page not included? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

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