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Happy editing! :Jay8g 07:11, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

November 2024

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Misplaced Pages, as you did at User:Carlstak. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. Repeated vandalism may result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Donald Albury 19:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Donald Albury Excuse me? he reversed an important Ergine edit and I was trying to communicate to him that the edit was correct. Wk472 (talk) 19:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The proper way to respond was to ask User:Carlstak about his edits on his talk page, or, better, on the article talk page (with a note on his talk page), which is where discussions about article content should take place, unless it becomes apparent that a wide venue is appropriate. With very limited exceptions, you should not be editng a user's user page. You placed a second copy of all of Carlstak's userboxes under the existing userboxes, and then dumped a lot of text without context below many blank lines. I saw it as vandanalism, and I still see it as vandalism. Donald Albury 20:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

All that text was unnecessary anyway to get your point across, Wk472. I've changed Ipomoea violacea back to the proper Ipomoea tricolor. The change was inadvertent, as I was referring to the outdated nomenclature used in the 1961 paper by R. Gordon Wasson. Carlstak (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a bigger issue with that article and I was hoping you would help me address it. The only comment about the psychoactive effects quotes and references a low quality reference (see third paragraph under History). The reference butchers two reports of the effects of ergine and doesn't even cite them (I know what they are because of my education on the topic). So, it's time for a proper representation of the psychoactive effects, so I've taken the liberty of gathering the only comments about this that have ever been published and I'm providing them here. I'd like someone with experience paraphrasing to parapharse them. ➜

There is a bigger issue with that article and I was hoping you would help me address it. The only comment about the psychoactive effects quotes and references a low quality reference (see third paragraph under History). The reference butchers two reports of the effects of ergine and doesn't even cite them (I know what they are because of my education on the topic). So, it's time for a proper representation of the psychoactive effects, so I've taken the liberty of gathering the only comments about this that have ever been published and I'm providing them here. I'd like someone with experience paraphrasing to parapharse them. ➜

D-lysergic acid amide (designation of compound undergoing tests: LA 111) was tested pharmacologically and clinically during the course of investigations on d-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD 25) and related compounds long before it was known to be a component of ololiuhqui. Already at that stage we had, in experiments on ourselves, ascertained a psychotomimetic activity with a marked narcotic component with dosages of 0.5 to 1 mg. The following paragraph is taken from a hitherto unpublished record of the first experiment which the writer performed upon himself with LA 111 on 30.10.1947.

10.00 h: Intramuscular injection of 0.5 ml of 1 per mille solution of LA 111 ( = 0.5 mg d-lysergic acid amide).

11.00 h: Tiredness in the neck, slight nausea.

11.05 h: Tired, dreamy, incapable of clear thoughts. Very sensitive to noises which give an unpleasant sensation.

11.10 h: Desire to lie down and sleep. Genuine physical and mental tiredness, which is not experienced as an unpleasant sensation. Slept for 3 hours.

15.00 h: Return of normal condition with full capacity for performing work.

This action of d-lysergic acid amide was later confirmed by the comparative systematic investigation of H. Solms. He describes the action as follows: LA 111 induces indifference, a decrease in psychomotor activity, the feeling of sinking into nothingness and a desire to sleep . . . until finally an increased clouding of consciousness does produce sleep.

Clinical investigations have been initiated with d-isolysergic acid amide but no results are available yet. Upon taking 2 mg. of isoergine himself, the writer experienced tiredness, apathy, a feeling of mental emptiness and of the unreality and complete meaninglessness of the outside world.

Source: The active principles of the seeds of Rivea Corymbosa and Ipomoea violacea. Albert Hofmann. Harvard Botanical Museum Leaflets. 20, 6 (1963), 208–209. https://archive.org/details/biostor-160836 (Pharmacological and clinical activity of the isolated alkaloids, pages 208-209)

a) ᴅ-lysergic acid amide

The expression and behavior of the test subjects changed just 45 minutes after taking the substance: the test subjects appeared to be suffering, their facial expressions were deteriorating as if they had suffered a serious illness, and their movements were noticeably slower. The speaking voice showed a decrease in volume, pitch, melody, dynamics and tempo. In the following test cross-sections, these changes increased, and they finally appeared sleepy and apathetic. Test subject EH, who had taken 3 mg (= 0.04 mg per kilogram of body weight), recovered after about 3-4 hours; test subject SB, who had taken 6 mg (= 0.09 mg per kilogram of body weight), had to go to bed after an antineoplastic injection and did not recover until the following day. In the self-reports of both test subjects, complaints about vegetative symptoms predominated: unpleasant, flu-like feeling of illness, nausea, sudden onset of nausea, with vomiting that could be stopped with 2 cm of Cyclicinum hydrochloricum. In addition, sensations of heat, sweating, dizziness, a feeling of heaviness and general tiredness were observed. Test subject SB (6 mg) woke up in the middle of the night with precordial pain and shortness of breath and at the same time suffered from severe unmotivated anxiety. There were no thought disorders, changes in mood (apart from a clear dysphoria) and significant changes in consciousness.

We would like to take this opportunity to once again thank all our colleagues for their cooperation.

b) ᴅ-isolysergic acid amide

The expression and behavior of the test subjects changed in the first study period, towards a state of dozing, from which they could easily be brought back into a friendly and present attitude by calling. In the following study period, they showed relaxation, a contented, not lifeless facial expression. In the fourth and fifth study periods, however, they appeared to be sufferingly exhausted and even sleepy and dazed. The speaking voice showed a reduction in dynamics, melody and pitch during the second to fifth study periods, while volume and tempo returned to their original values ​​after an initial reduction in the last three study periods.

The results of the descriptions of the experiences parallel the changes in expression: after a relatively short phase of dozing, all test subjects felt relaxed and comfortable, sometimes even a little euphoric. They seemed to overestimate their performance capabilities. Paraesthesia and individual synesthesia were noted, as well as an overestimation of the time that had passed. In the fourth and fifth study cross-sections, they complained of difficulty in thinking and a lack of ideas.

In the test subject PS (5 mg), severe nausea with a drop in blood pressure suddenly occurred after 3½ hours, which was controlled with analeptics and antinausea after about 30 minutes. At the same time, the test subject experienced a feeling of total annihilation and fear of death, which subsided after vomiting about 60 minutes later, but only completely subsided during the course of the night.

Discussion

The comparison of the effects of the partial alkaloids and their combinations shows strikingly small differences. In all cases we obtained mild to moderate intoxication states, which lasted beyond the three-hour observation period at higher doses and were characterized by a predominance of unpleasant vegetative sensations. These made the experiments very painful for the test subjects and led us to limit the study to a few experiments.

The analysis of the expression phenomena and relative behavior primarily shows these progressive changes in the state of being: mood shifts mostly in the direction of dysphoria, in low doses occasionally euphoria and reduced vigilance. In higher doses, slowing of motor behavior, expressive movements and speech and dosed apathy can be observed. This and a delay in the readiness to react show that primarily a clouding of consciousness is present. In the small number of experiments, a differentiation between the effects of the individual alkaloids on the level of experience could only be carried out with the help of a symptom distribution. Here, ᴅ-lysergic acid amide showed lesser vegetative, but stronger changes in thinking, affectivity and consciousness. The symptom distribution of the total alkaloids shows that this is a combination of the individual alkaloids tested and that the alkaloids not tested or the combination of the alkaloids tested by us do not result in any new qualities of effect.

Our first question can therefore be answered by saying that the alkaloids we tested and the total alkaloid mixture differ only insignificantly in their effects.

In contrast to psilocybin (Hᴇɪᴍᴀɴɴ, 1961, 1965), we do not find any qualitative modification with a phased course under ololiuhqui. Rather, there is a progressive intoxication, which can be demonstrated both in expression and behavior as well as in an impairment of concentration. There is a parallel between the impairment of mental performance and the objectively observable changes in expression and behavior, in contrast to the phase shift of the two criteria observed under psilocybin (maximum impairment of the ability to concentrate in the first phase of the study, where expression and behavior are only slightly impaired, maximum of the changes in expression in the third phase of the study, where the results in the concentration tests are already approaching the initial values). As we have explained elsewhere, the course of the effects of the model psychoses in the narrower sense shows a qualitative modification that depends on the duration of exposure to the drug, which, however, can only be proven with a test method that takes temporal relationships into account (Hᴇɪᴍᴀɴɴ, 1961).

Ololiuhqui differs fundamentally from the previously known Phantastica in that only very slight perceptual disturbances occurred, in particular visual hallucinations were almost completely absent. The other symptoms mentioned, e.g. the changes in the perception of time, the body schema, the loosening and impoverishment as well as the slowing down of the thought process and the changes in mood are also relatively discrete, in any case by no means as pronounced as with LSD 25 or psilocybin. They fall within the framework of what can be observed in mild somnolence and intoxication of a non-specific nature. Our results agree with the results of the investigations by Iꜱʙᴇʟʟ and Gᴏʀᴏᴅᴇᴛᴢᴋʏ, who observed only conscious disturbances without hallucinations with extract from ololiuhqui seeds and a synthetic alkaloid mixture of ololiuhqui alkaloids.

Our experiments with ᴅ-lysergic acid amide also confirm the results that Sᴏʟᴍꜱ had made with this substance, namely a predominantly sedative intoxication.

z.B. Psilocybin.

Source: Die psychische Wirkung der mexikanischen Droge „Ololiuqui“ am Menschen. Heim, E., Heimann, H. & Lukács, G. Psychopharmacologia 13, 35–48 (1968). DOI: 10.1007/BF00401617. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00401617

3. The effective doses of LA are the same as for LAE, but LA induces greater indifference, a decrease in psychomotor activity, and a desire to sleep much more strongly than does LAE, until finally an increased clouding of consciousness produces sleep. LA may provoke sleep after one-half to one hour; if the subject is not awakened, sleep lasts approximately two hours. If the dose of LA is increased, no certain hallucinatory experiences can be noticed, but uncomfortable autonomic disturbances do occur, such as, hypersalivation, emesis, dizziness and diarrhea; sometimes irritative depressive moods occur concomitantly. Because of these symptoms the tolerance point was considered reached.

With middle to strong doses in 1 subject work became increasingly difficult after 30 minutes. After forty minutes he began yawning and experienced a sensation of inability to use the limbs, a feeling of sinking into nothing, impaired concentration, and an immediate desire to sleep, after which he slept for three hours during the day.

Source: Relationships between chemical structure and psychoses with the use of psychotoxic substances. Solms H. 1956. J. Clin. Exper. Psychopath. 17:429. https://taz4.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=4195&S=MPA Wk472 (talk) 03:46, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, Wk472. I do appreciate your efforts to improve the article. You put a lot effort into your work, and I respect that. To maintain the integrity of the article and your work, all editors need to respect WP policy. I think you may be quoting the source excessively here on your talk page. This would constitute violation of copyright, which WP respects and enforces vigorously when violations are detected, even on talk pages. I've asked Diannaa of the WP copyvio task force to take a look, as explicit sizable copyvio must be reverted and deleted (revdeled), which only an admin can do. I noticed also that you added a good bit of quotation to the article, but that seems to be okay, at least to me. Because I'm not an expert on copyvio, I've asked Diannaa to take a look at that too. Please don't freak out if she posts an alarming template here, it's just procedure.;-) 16:14, 28 November 2024 (UTC)