Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by WhatamIdoing (talk | contribs) at 23:05, 17 December 2024 (→Preprints bullet, general audience writing about scholarship: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Discuss sources on the reliable sources noticeboard To discuss the reliability of specific sources, please start or join a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard (WP:RSN).

view · edit Frequently asked questions Questions Where should I ask whether this source supports this statement in an article? At Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Don't forget to tell the editors the full name of the source and the exact sentence it is supposed to support. Do sources have to be free, online and/or conveniently available to me? No. Sources can be expensive, print-only, or available only in certain places. A source does not stop being reliable simply because you personally aren't able to obtain a copy. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/cost. If you need help verifying that a source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange or a relevant WikiProject. Do sources have to be in English? No. Sources can be written in any language. However, if equally good sources in English exist, they will be more useful to our readers. If you need help verifying that a non-English source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Misplaced Pages:Translators available. I personally know that this information is true. Isn't that good enough to include it? No. Misplaced Pages includes only what is verifiable, not what someone believes is true. It must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source that says this. Your personal knowledge or belief is not enough. I personally know that this information is false. Isn't that good enough to remove it? Your personal belief or knowledge that the information is false is not sufficient for removal of verifiable and well-sourced material. Is personal communication from an expert a reliable source? No. It is not good enough for you to talk to an expert in person or by telephone, or to have a written letter, e-mail message, or text message from a source. Reliable sources must be published. Are there sources that are "always reliable" or sources that are "always unreliable"? No. The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and the statement it is being used to support. Some sources are generally better than others, but reliability is always contextual. What if the source is biased? Sources are allowed to be biased or non-neutral; sometimes these are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a controversial subject. However, the resulting Misplaced Pages articles must maintain a neutral point of view. Does every single sentence need to be followed by an inline citation? No. Only four broad categories of material need to be supported by inline citations. Editors need not supply citations for perfectly obvious material. However, it must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source for all material. Are sources required in all articles? Adding sources is the best practice, but prior efforts to officially require at least one source have been rejected by the community. See, e.g., discussions in January 2024 and March 2024. Are reliable sources required to name the author? No. Many reliable sources, such as government and corporate websites, do not name their authors or say only that it was written by staff writers. Although many high-quality sources do name the author, this is not a requirement. Are reliable sources required to provide a list of references? No. Misplaced Pages editors should list any required sources in a references or notes section. However, the sources you are using to write the Misplaced Pages article do not need to provide a bibliography. Most reliable sources, such as newspaper and magazine articles, do not provide a bibliography. Does anyone read the sources? Readers do not use the reference list extensively. This research indicates that readers click somewhere in the list of references approximately three times out of every 1,000 page views.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 8 sections are present.

This page has been mentioned by a media organization: Samuel Breslow (2022-09-29). "Misplaced Pages's Fox News Problem". Slate (magazine).

Newspapers

I was recently reading the Wikiedu subject-specific guide on reliable sourcing, in preparation for training students in a history class on how to complete their Misplaced Pages assignment. The subject-specific guideline says to avoid using "most newspaper articles from the period you're writing about" (page 2) as sources, because they are considered a primary source. I was surprised to read that, but on reflection, it makes sense. I was wondering if that would merit mentioning on this page. How old does a newspaper article have to be to count as a primary source rather than a secondary source? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

See #Bold edit on WP:AGEMATTERS (above). —Bagumba (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rachel Helps (BYU), you might find WP:PRIMARYNEWS useful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Assessment of "primary" and "secondary" is contextual. For intro undergrad students, it's probably best to just say that newspapers are entirely primary, or if not now, they will be within a few months. The more nuanced approach is that there are different types of newspaper articles, and different types of content in a newspaper article, and the context in which one uses such content also determines its suitability for whatever parameters of sourcing you have.

I'll use examples from the freely accessible BBC today: in "Telegram CEO Durov says his arrest 'misguided'", the line "the BBC learned last week that Telegram has refused to join international programmes ..." would be primary source material, as it is the BBC's original reporting from that series of articles. The quotations in the article are taken from Durov's Telegram post, which considering that the BBC and others would verify that account and statement, makes this a secondary source for that statement around this time of publication. However, after some months, it may no longer as important that Durov said something at this specific day, but rather what he said, in which case a line that cites this article for that information would use it as a primary source. Finally, the factual statements about Telegram and Durov's bio at the end will probably be considered citable as a secondary source for many years (although since the source of that information is not given, it is the worst kind of secondary source). And hopefully I've conveyed that the context in which it is cited matters. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanations! Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with the analysis by @SamuelRiv. The bit about "it was copied, which makes this a secondary source" is WP:LINKSINACHAIN. What makes (some or all of) a source be secondary is the addition of original thinking to prior publications. If the BBC not only repeated the original quotation but added, e.g., something about the implications of this quotation, the analysis of what the quotation reveals about how the arrest is affecting him, how the BBC believes this compares to a similar case, etc., then it would be a secondary source. Merely repeating what someone else said is still primary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, independent thought is necessary, but independent content is not necessary to define a secondary source. (And again, one shouldn't try to find some rigid definitions outside of the usage context.) Before a reputable newspaper reprints, in an article, what is claimed to be an statement from someone else, it verifies the statement. That makes it a secondary source for that statement. If they republished it indiscriminately, or at face value without any other reporting on the topic, then it would not be secondary. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:54, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I have read that newspapers no longer attempt to verify most statements. Fact checking is expensive. In particular, if the story says "The Daily Newspaper has reported that...", then I think we can assume that the original is being taken at face value. This is not bad; professional journalism is a small world, and its members are better suited for identifying who's trustworthy and who's not than Misplaced Pages editors are.

But all of this is a tangent: Fact checking produces a reliable source, not a secondary one. This would be a secondary source:

"News reports are conflicting. The Daily Newspaper quotes the mayor as saying 'Aliens are invading!', and The Weekly Standard quotes the police chief as saying 'It's all a big hoax'."

This example is secondary because they are comparing different reports. That would be secondary even if it were on a self-published blog, written by a non-expert, with no reputation for fact-checking or any of the other qualities we value. You couldn't use such a source because it would be totally unreliable, but Misplaced Pages:Secondary does not mean good, and it would be secondary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't use the term 'fact-checking' (as in the editorial procedure for each story). I say verifying as in independently verifying the reporting of a news outlet before re-reporting their content. That may mean some combination of fact-checking, interviewing the original journalist and editor, cross-checking with one's own sources, or some other process. The point is that we believe that a major news outlet generally does this (and they may outline their procedures publicly). SamuelRiv (talk) 12:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

What makes you think this actually happens? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

It is the definition of an WP:RS; if you believe an individual source is failing to do that, you should raise an objection on talk or take it to WP:RSN if the problem is systematic. If you believe all sources are failing to do that then there's nothing to be done; Misplaced Pages, by its nature, assumes that RSes exist. (Keep in mind that of course even the best RS will sometimes have some failures - that's very different from asserting that they have no fact-checking process at all!) --Aquillion (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

There's also the theory of accountability. Even if an outlet does not actively check every fact on every article, or even the majority of facts, if its reputation and financial stability hinge on its resistance to the scandal of major inaccuracy (if indeed major inaccuracy would be scandalous to that outlet, which is pretty much a requirement for RS here), then one can have some degree of confidence in the passive processes that would also serve rigor and accuracy in an institution.

Because resources are finite in every institution (even in some golden age of X), one always has to in practice give some faith to passive forces. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

"Appropriate"

"Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Misplaced Pages article and is an appropriate source for that content."

What is intended by distinguishing appropriateness from being reliable for a statement being made? Is it referring to WP:UNDUE, or is it elaborating evaluating whether a source is reliable for a statement being made?

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This statement is about whether the source is appropriate for the content (e.g., reliable), not about whether the content is appropriate for the Misplaced Pages article (e.g., UNDUE). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:44, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

We've never really needed a definition of Misplaced Pages:Appropriate. Until last year or so, I don't remember anyone even asking about it. I recently expanded Misplaced Pages:Identifying and using primary sources#"Secondary" does not mean "good" to provide a bit of an explanation.

I think it's easier to understand that some sources are obviously inappropriate than to define appropriate directly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If it is referring to being reliable for the statement, how is it not a tautology? I'm just not sure what it's adding. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

"E.g." means "For example". It does not mean "A complete list of all factors". An unreliable source would obviously be inappropriate, so I give it as an example of one way in which a source could be inappropriate. If you would like others, then see the examples in WP:NOTGOODSOURCE that I linked above. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand, this is just not communicated in the quoted text at the top. If a source being reliable for a statement was entailed in "appropriate" as you give in your e.g. example, then it would be sufficient to just say the source is appropriate and omit the first half of the sentence. I think rewording the last part "and is an appropriate source for that content" would clear this up, especially with the link to WP:NOTGOODSOURCE embedded. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• I think that "appropriate", in this context, is a catchall for the sorts of things detailed in the reliability in specific contexts section and our more specific contextual content policies like WP:BLP, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:MEDRS, WP:FRINGE and so on. The one thing that isn't spelled out, which perhaps should be, is that sources with relevant expertise are generally preferred over ones that lack it, but that isn't necessarily a requirement outside of WP:MEDRS, and other factors can complicate things - a news article written by someone with no expertise can still summarize the opinions of experts in ways that we can cover in the article voice, after all; whereas an academic paper may represent a single study whose results are outside of the mainstream. --Aquillion (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  An example differentiating “reliable” from “appropriate” … Suppose Joe TikTok writes in his social media: “Today was my 21st birthday, and I was enjoying it until a bunch of Anti-(cause) protestors stormed the restaurant and…” followed by a long rant on how he now hates Anti-(cause) protestors.

  That social media post can be considered ABOUTSELF reliable for verifying his birthday, but I would argue that the rest of the content makes it inappropriate to use for that purpose. Blueboar (talk) 17:52, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest Blueboar, I've never encountered this before, it's very interesting to hear. To my eyes, it's not at all a natural reading from "appropriate". And I probably would have considered it appropriate. Even if it's not written verbatim in policy it's good to know.

Aquillion, I see WP:BLP, WP:EXCEPTIONAL etc as all entailed in the first half of the sentence. For instance, would you say a source failing BLP is still reliable for the statement being made in the Misplaced Pages article? I can see how it could apply to generally preferring expertise, albeit not to MEDRS, per the same justification as my prior BLP example. I am lightly bludgeoning this and it's not gaining traction, so I might leave it there, thanks for weighing in. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Context

Roger 8 Roger, I think the start of WP:RSCONTEXT should be two paragraphs, like this:

The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Misplaced Pages article and is an appropriate source for that content.

Meaning of these sentences: The DSM-5 might be an excellent source in theory – scholarly reference work, heavily cited by other sources, etc. – but it is absolutely unreliable if you're trying to support a sentence that says "Oppenheimer (film) won the Academy Award for Best Picture". OTOH, for that same sentence, a self-published, non-independent social media post from the Academic Award's official social media channel is okay.

In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Misplaced Pages article (see also Misplaced Pages:Citing sources § Inline citations and Misplaced Pages:Inline citation).

Meaning of these sentences (or at least the first one): If you want to know what's usually a desirable characteristic in a source, then here are some qualities we value in general.

The usual rule for a paragraph is that you should have one main idea per paragraph, and this is clearly two different ideas. Ergo, it should be two different paragraphs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead doesn't say what reliable source means

Compare with WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

What would you propose the lead to say? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps "Reliable sources have a reputation for factchecking and accuracy. They are published, often independently from their subject." It's also troubling that the "page in a nutshell" doesn't reference reliability. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I've had a think to try to sum up the spirit of the guideline: "A reliable source is a source (four meanings in WP:SOURCE) that is just as willing to turn its critical attention inwardly as outwardly." I also think there is an implication that by doing this, they will necessarily be recognized for it which is the foundation for "reputation". This definition has a bias towards the source as a publisher/creator as described in WP:SOURCE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If you want to begin with a definition, then AFAICT the actual definition is:

• "A reliable source is a published document that experienced Misplaced Pages editors will accept for supporting a given bit of material in a Misplaced Pages article."

You have probably noticed the absence of words like reputation, fact-checking, accuracy, independence, etc. That's because those aren't actually required. We cite self-published, self-serving, inaccurate, unchecked, non-independent sources from known liars all the time. See also {{cite press release}} and {{cite tweet}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The first part makes some sense, although I would appreciate some clarification on the second part. If every source is reliable for something, the second sentence of this page "If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it" is redundant. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The second sentence is incomplete. It probably ought to say "If no Misplaced Pages:Independent reliable sources can be found..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I assumed the exclusion of independent was intentional. There does seem to be a distinction between sources reliable for verifying the content they express (wikivoice), and sources reliable for verifying that such a source expressed content (requiring attribution). I'll add in the "independent", although it does seem a bit like a non-sequitur. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it should be in the lead at all, but if it's going to be there, it should match WP:NOT, which says "All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources" and WP:V, which says "If no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not sure it should be in the lede either. I tried to express this by labelling it a non-sequitur.

If I were to read the lede to find out what constitutes a reliable source for a statement, I would learn it's what experienced editors thinks verifies it. This is really useless, I would have no idea how to apply this guideline, which is surely the first consideration in reading a guideline. Defer to experienced editors, who apparently deferred to experienced editors, who... Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's useless, but I agree that it isn't immediately actionable. It tells you what a RS actually is. What you need after that is some way to determine whether the source you're looking at is likely to be RS.

This could be addressed in a second sentence, perhaps along these lines:

"Editors generally prefer sources that have a professional publication structure with editorial independence or peer review, have a reputation for fact-checking, accuracy, or issuing corrections, are published by an established publishing house (e.g., businesses regularly publishing newspapers, magazines, academic journals, and books), and are independent of the subject. Reliable sources must directly support the content and be appropriate for the supported content."

It's that last bit ("appropriate") that throws over the preceding sentence. If a BLP is accused of a crime, and posts "I'm innocent! These charges are false!" on social media, then that's a source with no professional publication structure, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy, no reputable publishing house, and no independence from the subject. But it's 100% appropriate for the article to contain this information, and 100% reliable for the statement "He denied the charges on social media". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The thing is, the rest of the page explains in detail what qualities are (and aren't) seen in sources that are usually accepted, so I'm not sure that duplicating that information in the lead is necessarily the best choice. Perhaps it would be better to say something like "This guideline describes the characteristics of sources that are generally preferred by editors." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This ridiculous situation is a product of us not distinguishing reliable for verifying the content of a source, and reliable for verifying the existence of a source. I understand that there is some complexity with DUE on this front (SME may fall into the latter category given what we can verify is that an expert is saying this but not that it is something we can put in wikivoice), but the current approach, where we try to bundle it into "appropriate" is insufficient.

Small note, we should try to keep comments such as "But it's 100% appropriate for the article to contain this information" out of the convo to keep the streams from getting crossed with WEIGHT. probably too aspirational, and my comments may be read as doing this. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The idea isn't "duplicating" information, but summarizing it. The lede of NPOV could say "An article's content can be said to conform to a NPOV if experienced editors accept it as appropriate to include" but this doesn't explain what it is as representing "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" does. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Newimpartial, since I doubt that the sentence should be in this guideline at all, I don't really mind you removing the word 'independent', but I did want to make sure you understood the context. As a result of your edit, we have

• WP:NOT saying that "All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources",
• WP:V saying that "If no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it", and
• WP:RS implying that non-independent sources aren't all that important.

If we have to have this sentence at all, I'd rather have this sourcing guideline match the core content policies. If, on the other hand, you're thinking about the fact that NPROF thinks independent sources are unimportant, then I suggest that the place to fix that is in the policies rather than on this page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

It is my understanding that several SNGs can be satisfied without (what some editors consider to be) fully independent sources, not just NPROF.

Fundamentally, I think the actual policy problem is that the degree of independence that should allow a source to be used to establish the notability of a subject is poorly-defined and easily weaponized. So it seems to me that no academic is notable based on their own self-published statements, but a legitimate claim to notability can be based on reliable statements from universities and learned societies (to satisfy NPROF criteria).

An author or artist can't be notable based on their own self-published statements, either, but a legitimate claim to CREATIVE notability can be based on reliable statements from the committee granting a major award.

In a way, I think the older "third-party" language more clearly supported these claims to notability, whereas many editors will now argue that employers and award grantors are "not independent enough" for their own reliable claims to count for notability. Newimpartial (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, an employer is not independent of the employee they tout, though an award granter (usually) is independent of the winner (though not of their award).

I agree that there might be a problem, but I think that if we're going to have this sentence in this guideline at all, it should match what the policies say.

How do you feel about removing this as unnecessary for the purposes of this guideline? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This may be a controversial opinion, but I think an institutional employer with a decent reputation is a reliable source for the employment history and job titles of an employee, which is what NPROF requires in some cases. No "tout"ing necessary. Under those circumstances, I don't think a more purely independent source is "better" than the employer for establishing that kind of SNG notability.

Similarly, I have most certainty seen enthusiastic arguments that an announcement by an award grantor of a grantee is not independent of the grantee (presumably for reasons of "touting") and therefore does that such sources do not contribute to notabiiity under CREATIVE (even though the latter does not actually require independent sourcing, only reliable sourcing).

I would also point out again that "third party", which is what NOT says now and what WP:V said until 2020, seems slightly less amenable to weaponization in this way than does "independent", for whatever reason. Newimpartial (talk) 22:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that employers are usually "reliable" for the kinds of things they publish about their employees, but they're never "independent".

Misplaced Pages:Third-party sources redirects to Misplaced Pages:Independent sources, and has for years. There is a distinction – see Misplaced Pages:Independent sources#Third-party versus independent – but the distinction is not observed in Misplaced Pages's rules. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:37, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

If we do not remove this sentence, can we add independent, and then have a follow-up sentence or footnote saying "independent sources are not required to meet some SNGs" or the sort? Seems like that would clear up any confusion by not having "independent" in the sentence. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

A second thought: I don't think using a narrowly "document" definition for source adequately accounts for the other meanings of source used (i.e. a publisher), and I'm not sure how you could do that. I imagine that's just a case of reliable source having multiple definitions depending on the way it's being used. This may be the source of conflict with the second sentence: a different meaning being invoked. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

In discussions, we use that word in multiple different ways, but when you are talking about what to cite, nobody says "Oh, sure, Einstein is a reliable source for physics". They want a specific published document matched to a specific bit of material in a specific article.

"Document" might feel too narrow, as the "document" in question could be a tweet or a video clip or an album cover, none of which look very document-like, but I think it gets the general jist, which is that RS (and especially WP:RSCONTEXT) is focused on "the work itself". WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am thinking more Breitbart, although you describe well what the underlying dispute is, describing a publisher as unreliable is making a presumption for specific cites. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a known difficulty. There's the "Oh, everyone agrees that Einstein's reliable" sense and the "Yeah, but the article is Harry Potter, and Einstein's not reliable for anything in there" sense.

I have previously suggested encouraging different words. Perhaps Einstein is reputable, and an acceptable source+material pair is reliable. But we aren't there, and for most purposes, the distinction is unimportant. If someone says that "Bob Blogger isn't reliable", people glork from context that it's a statement about the blog being unreliable for most ordinary purposes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the definition Google gives for reliable: "consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted" does not caveat that it only speaks to verifying single pieces of information. This implies the Misplaced Pages definition is unintuitive. I do think this isn't the biggest problem here although it does make it confusing. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

We use the "able to be trusted" sense. And the question is: Able to be trusted for what? There are people you can trust to cause problems. There are source we can trust to "be wrong". That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether we can trust this source to help us write accurate, encyclopedic material.

A source can be "consistently bad in quality" and still be reliable. Many editors would say that anything Donald Trump posts on social media is bad in quality. But it's reliable for purposes like "Trump said ____ on social media", because it is "able to be trusted" for that type of sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:21, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Context makes a difference. We should never ask: “Is this source reliable?” but rather, we should ask: “Does this source reliably verify what is written in our article?” Blueboar (talk) 22:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

• I find the formulation added ("A reliable source is a published document that experienced Misplaced Pages editors will accept for supporting a given bit of material in a Misplaced Pages article.") quite bizarre. Firstly, it is, in effect, saying a reliable source is a source which "experienced" editors say is reliable. Isn't that utterly circular? It tells me nothing if I want to work out whether a source is reliable or not. Secondly, it fails WP:LEAD. I can't see anything about "experienced" editors' opinions being decisive in the rest of the guideline. It's completely out of the blue. Fundamentally, it's not what the guideline says. Thirdly, why do "experienced" editors views get priority? I've come across plenty of experienced editors with highly dubious views about RS and relatively new editors with compelling opinions. Fourthly, "a given bit of material". Seriously, are we going to have such slangy sloppy language in the opening of one of the most prominent guidelines in WP? Apart from that it's great. I don't disagree that a summarising opening sentence would be useful, but this is not it or anything like it. DeCausa (talk) 22:16, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

  @DeCausa, what would you write instead, if you were trying to write the kind of definition that MOS:FIRST would recommend if this were a mainspace article?

  Usually, editors start off trying to write something like this: "A reliable source is a work that was published by a commercial or scholarly publisher with peer review or editorial oversight, a good reputation, independent, with fact-checking and accuracy for all."

  And then we say: We cite Donald Trump's tweets about himself. They are N self-published with N no editorial oversight, Nno peer review, a N bad reputation, N non-independent, with N no fact-checking, and N frequently inaccurate. And despite matching exactly 0% of the desirable qualities in a reliable source, they are still 100% Y reliable for statements that sound like "Trump tweeted _____".

  An accurate definition needs to not completely contradict reality.

  As for your smaller questions:

  1. Is this circular? No. "A reliable source is whatever we say it is" tells you what you really need to know, especially in a POV pushing dispute, which is that there is no combination of qualities that can get your source deemed reliable despite a consensus against it. It doesn't matter if you say "But this is a peer-reviewed journal article endorsed by the heads of three major religions and the committee for the Nobel Peace Prize, published by a university press after every word was publicly fact-checked, written by utterly independent monks who have no relationship with anyone!": If we say no, the answer is no. Does that sentence tell you everything you need to know? No. I agree with you that it does not tell you everything you need to know about reliable sources. We have been discussing that in the thread above.
  2. See WP:NOTPART.
  3. Why "experienced" editors? Because, to be blunt, experienced editors control Misplaced Pages, and especially its dispute resolution processes. A source is not reliable just because three newbies say it is. However, it's unusual to have three experienced editors say that a source is reliable, and end up with a consensus the other way, and I don't ever remember seeing that happen with only newbies opposing that.
  4. If you dislike that particular phrase, then I invite you to suggest something that you prefer. As long as it prioritizes text–source integrity – by which I mean that we're talking about whether this source is reliable for this word/phrase/sentence/paragraph rather than vaguely about "the subject in general" or "some unknown part of the thousands of words on this page" – I'm personally likely to think it's an improvement.

  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think putting forward a strawman and then demolishing it is particularly useful. Your strawman clearly fails for its narrowness. The current text (and the premise of the above thread) fails because it's circular (yes it is - I'll come back to that) and doesn't tell us anything about what an RS is.

  To do that, one has to reach back to the fundamentals that, absent the detail of WP:RS, gives editors a guiding principle by which to judge whether a source is RS or not. For me, the fundamental concept is that RS are the means by which WP:V is delivered in practice. If it delivers it, it's RS. If it doesn't, it's not. I'm sure there are a number of ways this can be formulated. Here's one - I don't say it is the only one or the best one or it can't be improved. A reliable source is a previously published source of information in any medium which has all the attributes necessary to enable a reader to check the veracity of a statement in an article and to be assured that it is not derived from editors' own beliefs or experiences. That's pretty much all you need to know to understand why this is RS for "Donald Trump has claimed on Twitter that China created the concept of global warming" but not for "global warming was created by China" (to take your example).

  Turning to your numbered points:

  1. How can it be anything other than circular? I have 37k edits over 12 years so I would think by most standards I am "experienced". So if I am in doubt on whether something is RS or not and I look at that I'm told that whatever I think is RS is RS. There are no inputs given to me other than what I already thought and what I already thought is validated. Circular. Obviously WP:CONSENSUS is how all disputes are ultimately resolved. But what you say is clearly not true - otherwise !votes contrary to policy in RFCs wouldn't be disregarded. Of course 'might is right' works from time to time here, but not always or inevitably and to embed and codify it is really inappropriate in a guideline.
  2. The great thing about WP policies and guidelines is that (for the most part) they reflect commonsense. Taking a bureaucratic approach to ignore LEAD, a very commonsense guideline, doesn't make sense to me. Of course, the opening should be relatable to what is actually said in the policy. There is absolutely nothing in the current opening that foreshadows the rest of the guideline.
  3. Just need to look at RFC's to see that's not how we work. And ultimately an RS dispute will end up there. And what's an "experienced" editor anyway? I can see it feeding arguments along the lines of "I've got 40k edits and you've got 2k so my opinion counts more than yours".
  4. For the reasons I've given above, the current text isn't salvageable. It needs a different concept. But a "bit of material" is particularly cringworthy.

  I really think the addition should be reverted. Also, given its prominence whatever the final proposal is it needs an RFC rather than 3 editors deciding it. DeCausa (talk) 11:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

  I like the direction your definition takes, except that it's not really reflective of actual practice. Here is an example of a source that has all "the attributes necessary to enable a reader to check the veracity of a statement in an article and to be assured that it is not derived from editors' own beliefs or experiences", but which is not a reliable source:

  • Source: Soviet propaganda article in a government-funded partisan newspaper saying HIV was intentionally created as part of a American biological warfare program.
  • Article content: "HIV was created as part of a US biological warfare program."

  The reader can check source and "be assured that it is not derived from editors' own beliefs or experiences". That (dis)information definitely came from the cited newspaper and not from Misplaced Pages editors.

  But it's still not a reliable source, and at the first opportunity, editors will remove it and, if necessary, have a discussion to demonstrate that we have a consensus against it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a reliable source for exactly the same reason (in my example) as the Trump tweet is not a reliable source for the statement "global warming was created by China". It not being derived from editors' own beliefs is only an additional qualifier. The main one is that "it has all the attributes to check the veracity of the statement". When the tweet is used to say Trump said X, it has all the attributes to check the veracity of the statement "Trump said X". However, it has none of the attributes to check the veracity of the statement that "global warming was created by China" (expertise, independent fact-checking etc etc.) it's exactly the same as your Soviet propaganda article.

  I'm reverting the addition to the guideline - it consensus needs to be more than a couple of editors for something as prominent as that. DeCausa (talk) 16:09, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  WP:V begins this way:

  "In the English Misplaced Pages, verifiability means that people are able to check that information comes from a reliable source."

  Older versions opened with statements like "Misplaced Pages should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research" (2005) and "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources" (2006) and "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source" (2007).

  There's nothing about veracity in the policy, nor any similar word, except to tell people that The Truth™ explicitly isn't our goal.

  Additionally, if we demand veracity, rather than verifiability, we can realistically expect POV pushers to exploit that. "Sure, you cited a scientific paper about HIV causing AIDS, but that paper doesn't provide enough information to 'check the veracity of the statement'." Or "You cited lamestream media to say that Trump lost the 2020 election. You can't actually 'check the veracity of the statement' unless you go count the ballots yourself." And so forth.

  I think we have intentionally avoided any such claims for good reasons, and I don't think we should introduce them now. The purpose of a source is to let others (primarily other editors, since readers rarely click on sources) know that this wasn't made up by a Misplaced Pages editor but was instead put forward by the kind of source that a person of ordinary skill in the subject would be willing to rely on. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think you are missing the point. "Verifiability not truth" is about something else entirely. That's about the encyclopedia reflecting what's published in reliable sources rather what an editor believes to be the truth. It's not saying that it has no bearing in determining what an RS is. Fundamentally, we need to use sources that have all the attributes that support the objective of veracity. Whether or not they do convey the "truth" is a different question - and we can't know that. All we can do is check as best we can that they have the attributes that can potentially do that. If we do anything else then we just repeat flat earth nonsense. This is basic. DeCausa (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  You want us to define a reliable sources as having all "the attributes necessary to enable a reader to check the veracity of a statement".

  But you don't think veracity has much to do with the truth.

  I wonder if a word like trustworthy would serve your purposes better. That is, we can't promise you it's true, and almost none of the sources will give you the material necessary to check the actual veracity, but we can give you a source that we trusted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Circularity

This is about the comments on the definition ("A reliable source is a published document that experienced Misplaced Pages editors will accept") being circular.

Circular reasoning is this case: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true." For example: "This drug was proven to work because 100% of the people taking it got better afterwards. I know they get better because of the drug (and not due to random chance, placebo effect, natural end of the disease, etc.) because the drug has been proven to work."

Circular reasoning is not: "A reliable source is whatever editors say it is".

This is the old joke about reality, perception, and definition: Three baseball umpires are talking about their profession and the difficulty of making accurate calls in borderline cases. One says "Some are strikes, and some are balls, and I call them as they are." The next feels a little professional humility is in order and says "Some are strikes, and some are balls, and I call them as I see them." The third thinks for a moment and says "Some are strikes, and some are balls, but they ain't nothing until I call them."

The last umpire speaks of definition: What makes a source be "reliable" is that editors accept it. If it is not reliable, it is not reliable because they do not accept it. They might (and should!) give reasons why they don't accept it, but it is not unreliable because of the reasons (which may vary significantly between editors, or even be completely incorrect); it is unreliable because they don't accept it.

Imagine that you have applied for a job somewhere. They do not choose to hire you. You ask why. They say "We felt like you had too little education and not enough experience". You reply: "That's wrong! I've got five advanced degrees, and I've been working in this field for a hundred years!" Even if you're 100% right, you're still not hired. So it is with sources: No matter what the rational arguments are, a source is reliable if we say it is, and it's unreliable if we say it isn't.

When you write above that if "I am in doubt on whether something is RS or not and I look at that I'm told that whatever I think is RS is RS", you are making the mistake of assuming the plural is accidental. It is not what "I" think; it is what "we" think. Another way to say it might be "A reliable source is a published document that The Community™ will accept", though that will draw objections for its unsuitable level of informality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:10, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Have a more simple "Ovrview section" .....then let page explain... KISS....somthing like

A reliable source is one that presents a well-reasoned theory or argument supported by strong evidence. Reliable sources include scholarly, peer-reviewed articles or books written by researchers for students and researchers, which can be found in academic databases like JSTOR and Google Scholar. Magazine and newspaper articles from reputable sources are generally reliable as they are written by journalists who consult trustworthy sources and are edited for accuracy. However, it's important to differentiate between researched news stories and opinion pieces. Websites and blogs can vary in reliability, as they may contain misinformation or be genuine but biased; thus, it's essential to evaluate the information critically. Online news sources are often known for sharing false information.

Wrote a fast essay Misplaced Pages:What is a reliable source?Moxy🍁 16:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy, you said:

• A reliable source is one that presents a well-reasoned theory or argument supported by strong evidence

but if Trump posts on Twitter that China caused global warming, and we write in an article "Trump claimed China caused global warming on Twitter", where is the "well-reasoned theory" or "strong evidence"? There is no theory at all, and there is no evidence that this wasn't the one time when someone picked up his device and tweeted a joke post for him.

Or think about something perfectly ordinary, like "Big Business, Inc. has 39,000 employees". We'd normally cite that to the corporate website. There's no "reasoning", no "theory", no "argument", and no "evidence" involved.

This sort of strong source might be true for major sources on substantial topics (e.g., as the main source for Health effects of tobacco), but it's inapplicable to most of our ordinary everyday content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Should deal with the vast majority of articles. Trump posts on Twitter is not reliable for statements of fact just the opinion. The vast majority of articles dont have to deal with junk of this nature...let these cases be dealt with edit by edit. As for Big Business not sure it's even worthy of inclusion. .but if no other source contradicts the statement who really cares. Moxy🍁 19:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources have to be measured against individual statements, not whole articles.

The vast majority of articles deal with quite a lot of very ordinary content: The company said they have n employees. The singer said she got married last week. The author wrote this book. The definition of reliable source has to fit for all of these circumstances, not just the contentious ones. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Then what is needed is a definition of reliable source (used academically) as we have now vs a source for a statement that in no way would ever come under a peer review process or be historically relevant in the future. What is needed is more and separate information about how we can use non-academic sources. Should have a page dealing with modern media junk, company or government data and social networking sites that promote oneself. There's a whole generation coming up consisting of 50% of English-speaking editors that will never go on to formal education to understand the differences. Moxy🍁 22:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that it would be desirable to have a definition for reliable sources, but I suggest to you that this definition says much more about us (i.e., the Misplaced Pages editors who are making the decisions about which sources to "rely on") than about the objective, inherent qualities of the sources.

As I said above, a source can have none of the qualities we value and still be reliable for certain narrow statements. It can also have all of our favorite qualities and still be unreliable for other (e.g., off-topic or misrepresented) statements.

IMO the unifying theme between "This comprehensive meta-analysis of cancer rates, published in the best journal and praised by all experts, is a reliable source for saying that alcohol causes 8.7924% of cancer deaths in developed countries" and "Yeah, his tweet's a reliable source for the fact that he said it" is what the community accepts for each of those statements. That's our baseline: It's reliable if we say it is, and it's not reliable if we say it isn't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote something up after this, if only to clarify my understanding. Could someone here have a look and see if I am accurately reflecting what's conveyed here? Particularly the part on 'intangible preferences' I'm a little shaky on.

Strictly speaking, a source cannot by itself be described as reliable. A source can only be reliable for verifying a piece of information.

There are two types of statements a source can verify: those that are attributed and those that are not. With the former, editors look for attributes such as independence, peer-review and a reputation for fact-checking. This can indicate it is reliable for such a statement. They also look for counter-considerations, such as contradicting other sources that also have such attributes and a lack of expertise to make such a statement.

How considerations and counter-considerations are weighted, and the determination of reliability for a statement is made, comes down to any consensus editors can form. The community has some preferences for which considerations are more relevant; experienced editors are more able to apply such intangible preferences. If a source meets this, the material can be put in wikivoice.

When a source falls short of this, we can move from using the source to verify the content of what they said, to verifying that they said something. If the source has a credible claim to representing what it purports to be, it is considered a reliable source to verify the attributed claim. An example of a "credible claim": Donald Trump's Twitter may post something, but whether the tweet is a reliable source that Trump said it or merely that his Twitter account posted it is evaluated (considering the potential that his social media team tweeted it).

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I was with you until the last sentence. The difference between "Alice said" and "The people Alice hired for the purpose of saying things for her" is immaterial.

The difference that matters is whether Trump's tweet can be presented as something that is true ("Trump likes McDonald's food", with a tweet saying "At McDonald's. Best french fries in the world. Love all their stuff. Should make the Navy serve this in the White House.") or only as something that he said ("Trump once tweeted that Ruritanians 'should be deported from their own country'", with a tweet saying "Those Ruritanians are strange! They should be deported from their own country!!"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Both matter. We can see the former matter when we write The Art of the Deal as ghostwritten rather than authored by Trump even when "The people hired for the purpose of saying things for " wrote it. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

But we can't use a ghostwritten book to say that it was ghostwritten. We need a different source for that (i.e., one that actually says it was ghostwritten). WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh I understand your point. Yes, this is contingent on external sources making comments to this effect rather than simple editor speculation, I should have made that clearer. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

On the second half, I've had a think. I don't think it is a distinct issue from non-primary sources. I think the key consideration from the first is independence. For the second, due to ambiguity in tone, to put it in wikivoice would be an extraordinary claim for which the tweet is insufficiently reliable. Interested to hear your thoughts. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Were you using non-primary and independence as interchangeable words in this comment? They're not.

Assuming 'the second' is the made-up tweet about the purely fictional Ruritania, the tweet would be:

• primary for its contents (WP:ALLPRIMARY)
• non-independent of himself/his view
• self-published because the author and the person who made it available to the public are the same.

But it would be reliable. All sources are reliable for statements that say "The source contains the following words: <exact words in the source>" or "The person posted <exact words the person posted> on social media".

With this reliable source in hand, one still has to decide whether the content belongs in the article. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Just because you have a reliable source doesn't mean the inclusion would be WP:DUE or comply with rules against WP:INDISCRIMINATE inclusion of random factoids. But even if you conclude that it's not sufficient to justify putting it in the article, the source is still reliable for the statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No I wasn't, in fact I was trying to make the more bold claim that the principles of independence could be applied to a primary source. The idea being that if a claim is self-serving, the publisher is less reliable for its contents, necessitating attribution. There's no principle of "self-serving", but there is of bias and independence; I think the latter fits better here as a biographical subject can have more or less of a vested interest in a topic, which is what an independent source is: "a source that has no vested interest in a given Misplaced Pages topic".

"But it would be reliable." There's some imprecision here between reliable with or without attribution. You are saying all are reliable for the latter, which is true. How that attribution is given depends on whether the source "has a credible claim to representing what it purports to be". For the former, the reason there is an affirmative assumption of reliability for claims made by individuals is because they are regarded as a SME, on matters such as whether Donald Trump does indeed love McDonalds. Counter-considerations then apply for reliability: self-serving, contestable etc.

Agree on DUE. I am trying to keep that discussion out of this one, with mixed results. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• Source1 says <something>.
• Is Source1 reliable for the claim that Source1 says "<something>"? Yes.
• Source2 says <something self-promotional>.
• Is Source2 reliable for the claim that Source2 says "<something self-promotional>"? Yes.

There is no difference here. The Source2 is not less reliable for its own contents. Just because it says something self-promotional does not make you any more likely to read Source2 and think "Huh, Source2 didn't really say <something self-promotional>". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The claim made by source one can be put in wikivoice, the claim made by source two should be attributed. It seems obvious to me that source two is less reliable for content, we can't trust them as easily as a source that isn't self-promotional because they have strong, relevant motives contrary to accurately reflecting the truth. They are both just as reliable as each other for "source said something". The question here is the distinction you drew: "The difference that matters is whether Trump's tweet can be presented as something that is true or only as something that he said." For the former we can present it as true, for the latter we can only present it as something he said. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you that They are both just as reliable as each other for "source said something".

WP:INTEXT attribution is required whenever editors choose (i.e., by consensus) to require it. That is not always for primary sources, not always for non-independent sources, and not always for self-promotional sources.

Consider a self-published, self-promotional, non-independent primary source:

• Social media post: "Congratulations to all the staff on our 20th anniversary! Thank you to all the customers who have supported us since 2004. We're going to give away treats to the first 100 customers today, and we'll have hot gas station grub all day long for the low price of $5."
• Misplaced Pages article: "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station opened in 2004."

Nobody would expect us to add INTEXT attribution, e.g., "According to a social media post by WhatamIdoing's Gas Station, the business opened in 2004." The source is self-promotional, but our use of it is for non-self-promotional, basic facts. We can trust the source even though the source is promotional. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

While it may be true that INTEXT is technically only applied whenever editors choose, INTEXT also seems to make clear — "For certain frequently discussed sources, in-text attribution is always recommended" — that when material is DUE but is insufficiently reliable to be put in wikivoice, it is generally attributed.

If I may, a source can only be reliable for a given piece of material. It does not speak to the whole source as we've noted above extensively. The material the text is supporting, "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station opened in 2004" is not particularly promotional. If the material being supported was "WhatamIdoing's gas station gave away treats to the first 100 customers on this day", that the material was self-serving would be a consideration in whether it could be considered reliable or not. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:39, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

If you see an advertisement from a business that says it will give away treats to the first 100 customers, what makes you think you can't rely on that claim? Imagine that a store near you ran an ad making exactly that claim. Would you show up wondering whether it was true? Or would you be confident that (barring extenuating circumstances, assuming the whole store hadn't burned down over night, etc.) that they actually would do this?

A promotional source doesn't give us a reason to include promotional material, but it is reliable for the facts of the promotion. A Misplaced Pages editor would likely omit any mention of giving away treats, but if they included it, they would not say "The gas station posted on social media that they would give away treats to the first 100 customers", or anything remotely close to that. In fact, INTEXT would discourage that because "in-text attribution can mislead". Adding in-text attribution in that case might make it sound like we think the advertisement was lying.

There are self-serving cases when in-text attribution is necessary. Consider "Richard Nixon said I am not a crook" vs "Richard Nixon was not a crook", because the self-serving source is not reliable for a statement of fact. But a self-serving source can be reliable for a plain statement of fact, and when it is reliable for that plain fact, it should be presented in wikivoice – or omitted entirely for reasons unrelated to the source being reliable for the statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all of this, and I did when making my comment (hence why I said "would be a consideration", not the consideration). I think we're in agreement and I don't think any of this is at odds with my initial laying out of reliable sourcing, although some more clarifications may be needed.

Coming back now to the case you initially raised of Donald Trump liking McDonalds being in or out of wikivoice, I am saying the primary consideration is whether he is getting something out of it. More important considerations don't apply as they do with your gas station promo. If he tweeted endorsing MyPillow instead of McDonalds a different assessment of how self-promotional the material was would be made. I've lightly edited the original comment into User:Rollinginhisgrave/How I understand reliable sources. Do you think it needs further revision? Would you put it differently? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Consider this sentence above: If the material being supported was "WhatamIdoing's gas station gave away treats to the first 100 customers on this day", that the material was self-serving would be a consideration in whether it could be considered reliable or not.

This is wrong. Whether the material was self-serving is a consideration for "how we should handle it" or "what we should stick in the article", but it's not a consideration for "whether it could be considered reliable". That source is 100% reliable for that statement. It's just not something we'd usually want to stick in an article for non-reliability reasons.

The tendency in discussions on wiki is to fall for the Law of the instrument: I'm familiar and comfortable with using the WikiHammer of Reliability, so when the actual issue is anything else, I still pull out my hammer. I ought to use the whole toolbox and say that this is undue, unencyclopedic, poorly written, off topic for this article, etc., but instead I'm going to say: It's self-serving, so it's not reliable. It's trivia, so it's not reliable. It's a tiny minority POV, so it's not reliable.

The sentence that you wrote above should say something like this: If the material being supported was "WhatamIdoing's gas station gave away treats to the first 100 customers on this day", that the material was self-serving would be a consideration for multiple policies and guidelines, not to mention common sense, that are not about whether this source is reliable for this statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:07, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That source is 100% reliable for that statement. This doesn't contradict my statement. Whether it is self-serving is a consideration for whether it is reliable: this is why we hold "independence" as indicative of reliability. As I said above, determining whether it is reliable is a product of weighting "considerations and counter-considerations": here the counter-consideration is more impactful. It can still be a consideration even if it is ultimately overruled in a final assessment by counter-considerations.

And "whether the material was self-serving" is also a consideration for other multiple policies and guidelines. In this case, those are more relevant here; I am not discussing them however since this is a conversation about defining "reliable sources", not NPOV. As you say, it can be a reliable source while still being UNDUE, and I don't think I've mentioned anything on the material being verifiable necessitating inclusion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For:

• a statement in the Misplaced Pages article that "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station is giving away treats to the first 100 customers", and
• a source that is an actual advertisement saying the same thing,

then: whether that advertisement is self-serving is not a consideration for whether the advertisement is reliable for a description of the promotional activity.

There are no worlds in which we would say "Oh, this advertisement would be reliable for "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station is giving away treats to the first 100 customers" except that the advertisement is just too self-serving". The advertisement is always reliable for that particular statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, none of this contradicts what I'm saying. There's a confusion of process and outcome. While determining if this source can verify this piece of material, we necessarily have to make a judgement on whether the material being self-promotional (which can indicate a source is unreliable in verifying material) would impact such a determination. Here, you make it clear that you think it is irrelevant. Which I agree on. But to do so, you have necessarily considered its relevancy; to disregard first necessarily requires consideration. This is the consideration I am speaking of. It is an application of determining if a source is reliable as the evaluation of considerations for why it may be reliable and counter-considerations for why it may not be. "The advertisement is always reliable for that particular statement" and "a consideration in determining if such a source includes it being self-promotional possibly indicating unreliability" are simultaneously true. I think I've said my peace here and am repeating myself so if my point doesn't come across I'll leave this here, although I obviously hope it does. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we're going to reach an agreement. I can't think of an example of an advertisement that we would consider reliable if we judged it non-self-promotional but unreliable if we judged it self-promotional. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not the advertisement as a whole being judged as more or less self-promotional, but the material therein. An advertisement could make two claims: Coca-Cola was founded in 1886. Pepsi puts poison in their cola. There is obviously a distinction to be made to the extent of self-promotion between the claims, even though they both appear in an advertisement. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:09, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Coming back to this, I can see the GNG makes an attempt to define reliable at odds with the above discussion: "Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline." In addition to this, it requires sources be independent, so it's not that it's just talking about reliable as it relates to notability, but making a claim about reliability in general. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:09, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Everything in the GNG is written "as it relates to notability". Among its awkward statements are that "Sources should be secondary", which is true(ish) for notability but has nothing to do with the definition of either source or reliable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Part of the confusion here stems from omitting context from the discussion. The goal is for sources to “reliably” verify what we write in our articles. However, the question of whether a specific source does this (or not) depends on what we write. Are we attempting to verify a statement of fact written in wikivoice (where we state “X” as fact, verified by citing source Y) or are we verifying an attributed statement of opinion (where we note that Y said “X”, verified by citing where Y said it). The same source can be unreliable in the first context, but reliable in the second context.

This, of course, does not mean we should write either statement (other policies impact what we write, as well as how and where we write it)… it only means that the specifics of reliability can shift depending on context. Blueboar (talk) 15:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Conference proceedings

We have had a number of discussions on the reliability of conference proceedings as sources. See:

• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_1#Conference_proceedings
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_10#Conference_proceedings_RS?
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_73#Conference_papers
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_305#Things_published_in_conference_proceedings

The gist of the discussions is that it depends on the conference and the degree of peer review applied to the proceedings. I think we should say something to this effect here, perhaps under Scholarship. BD2412 T 19:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

If memory serves, it also depends on the field of study. Conference proceedings are unreliable in medicine, but I believe they are valued in other fields (computers?). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Economics conferences deal mainly with working papers which are themselves cited relatively frequently in modern economic research. The papers are published in journals at the end of the process. I'd call them reliable depending on the calibre of the conference and its selectivity. Ifly6 (talk) 19:22, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing and Ifly6: Perhaps something like, "Published conference proceedings may be reliable sources, depending on the field of study, the calibre of the conference, and its selectivity". BD2412 T 19:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe? I'm tempted to add something like "and depending on what you're trying to claim", because a claim like "He presented something at a conference" requires much less of a source than a claim like "Recent experiment disproved the theory of relativity". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I am referring to claims made in the papers themselves, though I did not have highly controversial claims in mind. It is frankly often possible to find more elementary explanations for basic concepts in conference papers than in other kinds of publications. BD2412 T 02:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

MEDRS says that conference abstracts (posters, etc.) are "usually poor sources".

How informative would it be to you, to be told that conference proceedings "may" be reliable, depending upon unstated information (is this one of the fields, or not?), potentially unknown information (looks like a great conference to me), and possibly secret information (what percentage were rejected? They didn't say...). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I suppose I would want to be pointed to further information delineating which conference proceedings were understood to be acceptable, and which were not. There are plenty of articles that do cite them, apparently unobjectionably. I would note that, as I understand things, abstracts and posters are also distinct from published proceedings. BD2412 T 23:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think I agree on all points.

This might be something that needs to be at Misplaced Pages:Citing conference proceedings first, so it can be developed much more detail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Conference proceedings are the main outlet for publication in computer science. They are more selective, more prestigious, more timely, and more paid attention to by other researchers than most journals. Many subfields of computer science publish only in conferences, or even in some cases declare their conference proceedings series to be journals.

As for "it depends on the conference and the degree of peer review applied to the proceedings": this is the same as for journals and we should not warn against conferences in this way without applying the same warning to journal citations.

—David Eppstein (talk) 23:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see that this is much different from any other academic material. An editor should be using a multifactor approach in deciding if something is an RS. What is the reputation of the person presenting, are they floating an idea to see if it is accepted, is the paper cited in a way that supports it – or is it too recent to answer any of these questions? (I a sure that question list can be expanded.) I have in mind Jan Bill suggesting the categorisation of two types of historic clinker construction into "traditional" and "modern" in a conference paper. He is a leading expert on Nordic maritime history and ship construction. His categorisation system is used by others working in the field (DOI: 10.13140/2.1.5120.3204 cited in ISBN 978-82-7760-183-0). I've also used (without hesitation) a conference paper which summarises historic timber conversion for shipbuilding because it states at greater length the material in an RS written by a leading expert published by a specialist publisher. (Gawronski et al in ISBN 978-94-92444-29-5 contains a fuller version of ISBN 978 1 84217 297 1 pp53-54)

Some conference proceeding publish competing ideas (which, incidentally, also happens with some topic reviews like "The Oxford Handbook of ...."). This is particularly important if one author promotes their paper by making it open access while the competing author does not. So a Misplaced Pages editor who does not read all of the proceedings gets only half the story.

This is all down to how well the editor understands the subject and how widely they have read into it before actually doing any editing. Any Misplaced Pages guidance needs to be clearly that – or else we will have editors arguing over perfectly good references or using the "rules" to use quite terrible ones. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 00:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Inconsistency between WP:SOURCE and WP:SOURCEDEF

The definition of a source is not consistent between WP:SOURCE and WP:SOURCEDEF. WP:SOURCE states that the word source has four related meanings whereas WP:SOURCEDEF states that the word source may related to one of three concepts. Here's a side-by-side comparison.

So: does source have three meanings or four? —PrinceTortoise (he/him • poke • inspect) 17:19, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes! Blueboar (talk) 18:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

The one from WP:V is correct, as it was discussed and updated in 2022. Either the two should match, or the RS should be removed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Thing is… I think these are meant to be examples more than definitions. We could probably come up with additional things that we might call a “source”… so it isn’t limited to just 3 or 4. Blueboar (talk) 18:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe the original goal was to give newer folks a heads up that when one editors says something about 'the source', and another editor says something about 'the source', they might actually be talking about different things, like warning travelers that the word biscuit has different meanings in the UK vs in the US.

IMO it is not fundamental to any of these pages, and could be split out to an essay/information page like Misplaced Pages:What editors mean when they say source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:13, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

It is fundamental, those are things/persons that affect reliability. Those, each, are what editors need to examine. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

What I mean by this is: I think that WP:V and WP:RS were intelligible to ordinary editors before these words were added, and I think WP:V and WP:RS would still be intelligible if they were removed again. Their presence (in at least one of the two) might be helpful, but their absence would not actually render the policy and guideline meaningless. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

For whatever reason, it looks like SourceDef tries/or tried to tuck the missing one from Source into its introduction and perhaps through that or over time it got a bit mangled. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

What do you think about blanking all but the first paragraph, and then pointing people to WP:SOURCE for more information? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Do these pass WP:SCHOLARSHIP?

There have been 41+ recorded cases of starvations in Gaza, but a letter from medical professionals in Gaza estimated that the true number is at least 62,413. The estimate is based on the IPC classification; see the appendix. The figure was also referenced in this paper by anthropologist Sophia Stamatopoulou-Robbins.

The question is whether either of these sources passes WP:SCHOLARSHIP, making it suitable to include the estimate in something like wikivoice (e.g. the Gaza genocide infobox reads Estimated at least 62,413 dead from starvation).

I don't see any evidence of vetting by the scholarly community, but the argument has been made that the authors' expertise and/or publication by Costs of War Project (a research group which hosts a compilation of papers by its contributors) might suffice. This has been discussed here and more recently here. — xDanielx /_C\ 16:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

This is already being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Death estimation. Selfstudier (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I would like some feedback on what I perceive to be a reliable aviation source.

I was recently looking to use AussieAirpower as a source in an aircraft article. I was surprised to see two people say it wasn't a reliable source. Here is why I believe it is.

The primary author writes for Janes, which is very highly regarded, worked as a research fellow at the Australian Defence Studies Centre, consulted for the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and many others. So his opinion isn't just held in high regard, governments pay for it. He is he a current research fellow for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics as well as the editor for AussieAirpower.Peter Goon co authors a lot of the work, a qualified aircraft engineer and RAAF officer, graduate of the US navy test pilot school with extensive military test flying and who has developed and certified many aircraft technologies.

To me this seems like an ideal source on matters relating to things like radars and aircraft? However other seem to elevate the work of regular reporters above this and deem the think tank unreliable?

An example article is linked here. https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html Liger404 (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Liger404, please take this question to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Alternatively, if you think it needs people who understand the subject area, you can post it at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Aircraft. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Liger404 (talk) 00:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Preprints bullet, general audience writing about scholarship

Right now, the Preprints bullet says in part

Preprints, such as those available on repositories like arXiv, medRxiv, bioRxiv, or Zenodo are not reliable sources. Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog, as anybody can post it online. Their use is generally discouraged, unless they meet the criteria for acceptable use of self-published sources, and will always fail higher sourcing requirements like WP:MEDRS.

Would it be clearer to replace that with something like

Preprints, such as those available on repositories like arXiv, medRxiv, bioRxiv, or Zenodo, have not undergone peer-review and therefore are not reliable sources of scholarship. They are self-published sources, as anyone can post a preprint online. Their use is generally discouraged, and they will always fail higher sourcing requirements like WP:MEDRS.

The similarity to blogs is that they're self-published, and there's no need to compare them to blogs to say that, especially since they're unlike blogs in other ways (e.g., in citing literature). I also removed the phrase about the criteria for acceptable use of self-published sources, as preprints generally come from "expert" sources, which is an exception for using SPS. Notwithstanding that preprints generally come from expert sources, their use is discouraged because we don't want readers to confuse them with peer-reviewed research and because editors should use reliable non-self-published sources when available, which often exist in the peer-reviewed literature.

Also, does it make sense to add something about popular discussions of scholarship (e.g., in a magazine)? FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome is, it is silly to say "they are not reliable sources. they can be reliable sources." Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The passage is fine as is, IMO. See also WP:SPSWHEN. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I was prompted by an exchange on the Autism talk page where another editor seemed to interpret "Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog, as anybody can post it online. Their use is generally discouraged" along the lines of "the use of sources that have not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog and their use is generally discouraged" (i.e., interpreting it as text about other sorts of sources, not limited to preprints or non-peer-reviewed scholarship more generally, as is the case with some conference proceedings). Not an accurate reading of those sentences, but it made a couple of us wonder whether the wording of the preprints paragraph could be improved. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I encouraged FOO to start this because of that discussion. We don't need a sentence that can be quoted out of context to say that "Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog", because that isn't true. Outside the hard sciences, research is routinely published in non-peer-reviewed books, which are definitely not "akin to a blog". Research gets published in magazines and newspapers.

I like the proposed re-write. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Autocracy corrupting reliable sources, censoring what is published

As media are increasingly careful to avoid lawsuits like ABC recently settled, self-censorship will limit the neutral information available to publish. It is said that RFK will even censor releases by the FDA. In this type of media environment, truths must be published underground or at least in less well-resourced publications. How can reliable sources definitions deal with this new state of affairs? Jdietsch (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

We should be lending greater weight to academic and NGO sources and less on newsmedia. Simonm223 (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press