Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2024 December 14

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14 December 2024

Cartoys (closed)

Cartoys – Closure endorsed. No clear consensus on whether to directly restore to article space or restore and move to draft, so in the absence of a clear consensus on this particular issue, taking the more conservative route and restoring to draft (Draft:Cartoys). Daniel (talk) 17:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Cartoys (talk`\|`edit`\|`history`\|`logs`\|`links`\|`watch) (XfD`\|`restore) This deletion discussion had minimal participation and the nomination did not fully follow the procedures in WP:BEFORE; there are articles in the Wall Street Journal, Puget Sound Business Journal, and Chicago Tribune with significant coverage, not to mention a good number of Seattle Times articles in local archives. I believe this was a premature deletion and the article could be saved and improved. Sounder Bruce 00:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse, there were two relists where no one weighed in. This was by no definition premature. Did you ask the deleting admin for a copy to improve in draft space? That would make sense if you believe you can improve it to where a G4 no longer applies. Star Mississippi 01:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse - Correct interpretation of the consensus. No keep !votes were made in the discussion and the sources brought by the requestor here were not presented in the discussion. The nominator at AfD also does not show any indication of a failure in their BEFORE duties. The closer cannot be blamed for assuming that a third relist would have yielded similar results as the first two. Delete was the only option here. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 03:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Allow a Relist per Extraordinary Writ, preferable to a restore due to involving NCORP (which is indeed a higher bar to meet than GNG). ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Overturn, with my apologies I saw this, thought that it was absurd, and failed to say so at the time. I can only opine in so many deletion discussions, and mistakenly assumed that other editors would chime in, as this area is not a core interest of mine. I was wrong. The decision is wrong on the merits, no matter who participated and how, and if DRV isn't the right place to say that--what is? Jclemens (talk) 04:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Restore we now have sources. The Chicago Tribune one is solid. WSJ is light. The Puget Sound ones I can't see, but they look likely to be fine. Closer's close was okay, but now we have sources. Hobit (talk) 08:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Relist. The first relist never actually made it onto the log, so this was really only relisted once. Given the good-faith request above and the low participation, a second relist is reasonable; the sources are decent but not so good that I'd want to just overrule the AfD (especially since WP:NCORP is stricter). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC) I'd be fine with a relist too. But I note that until and unless N is changed, a corporation can meet GNG or the appropriate SNG, CORP, to be notable. Jclemens (talk) 09:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC) As I was writing my comment, I very specifically thought: "if I say that, Jclemens is going to reply that NCORP doesn't override the GNG". I guess I've finally reached the exalted status of DRV regular. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Welcome to the club! :-) Misplaced Pages works best when we all collaborate despite its imperfections. Jclemens (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Restore based on new sources available and the minimal participation at the AFD. Any user is able to renominate for deletion. Relisting is a good option as well and would be my second choice. Frank Anchor 16:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Restore. I find no fault in how the AfD was closed. However, limited participation in it allows us to treat the outcome as a soft-delete, even if it wasn't spelled out as such, and restore the article in response to any good faith request. Owen× ☎ 16:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse own close. And forgive any confusion, as I just now changed my name back to my old name. It is not the closers' job to do their own research and reach their own conclusion, but to do their best to read consensus. I don't see how, with the discussion that was held, there was a compelling argument made to keep. That being said the technical issue with the relisting and the apparent availability of sources that were somehow not found by the particpants in the AFD is enough to justify another relist. I think this is the first time I've had a close challenged by someone who did not actually participate in the deletion discussion. That would've been where to make the case. I utterly reject the notion that it was premature. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC) No, your close was fine--the discussion sucked and utterly failed to find the sources that existed. I had more obligation, as someone who monitors DELSORT Washington, to go find and list the sources our appellant did, and I failed to. The process was correct, the result was wrong. Jclemens (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC) No one here, with the possible exception of the appellant, is claiming that you erred in your close, Beeblebrox. The only question before us is what to do with the page now, seeing as we found new sources. Owen× ☎ 20:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse and Allow Recreation There is no error in the close. That said, if new sourcing can be added to the article that meet our notability requirements, there should be no objection to recreation by tenured editors in good standing. --Enos733 (talk) 20:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse - There is no error in the close. There was no need for the closer to relist the discussion, and there is no need to overturn the close and relist the discussion to allow new sources. It is not necessary to come to DRV to ask for permission to submit a new draft, or to create a new article subject to AFD. Is there some way to advise editors who have found new sources are deletion that they don't need to come to DRV? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2024 (UTC) I would hope that a user with seventeen years of experience on the project would at least try just asking the deleting admin to restore it as a draft so they could improve it and return it to mainspace, but apparently jumping straight to DRV without talking to he closing admin first is the preferred option these days El Beeblerino 20:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC) In my opinion, editors often make a mistake in asking the deleting administrator to restore a deleted article to draft, or in asking DRV to restore a deleted article to draft, when they would be better off to start from scratch. If the article was deleted for lack of notability, the article that does not establish notability may not be useful. If the article was deleted as promotional, the deleted article is almost certainly not useful. Many DRV requests are unnecessary because permission is not needed to start a new draft if the title was not salted. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC) Draftify. If the reasons for deletion can be demonstrated to be overcome, allow mainspacing. This is a higher requirement than overcoming G4. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse and restore only three participants, only two !votes - the closer had no choice, but I have no problem if this is soft restored. Since NCORP is involved I also support draftifying before restoring, but I haven't seen what was deleted. If it's not very good, I'd draftify. SportingFlyer T·C 20:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC) Restore. Given the list participation at the AfD, I believe that it is best to treat this as a soft deletion that can be restored on request of good faith editor citing sources. A new AfD can be started by any interested user, but I see no compelling reason to require one. As for the close itself, it was clearly within admin discretion and no blame should attach to Beeblebrox. Eluchil404 (talk) 00:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC) Endorse. The process was obviously followed correctly. An additional relist was an option but far from necessary. The outcome should not be overturned for any reason and should not be reinterpreted as a soft deletion. The page can be restored to draft. The DRV starter should have requested that.—Alalch E. 17:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Cartoys – Closure endorsed. No clear consensus on whether to directly restore to article space or restore and move to draft, so in the absence of a clear consensus on this particular issue, taking the more conservative route and restoring to draft (Draft:Cartoys). Daniel (talk) 17:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

This deletion discussion had minimal participation and the nomination did not fully follow the procedures in WP:BEFORE; there are articles in the Wall Street Journal, Puget Sound Business Journal, and Chicago Tribune with significant coverage, not to mention a good number of Seattle Times articles in local archives. I believe this was a premature deletion and the article could be saved and improved. Sounder Bruce 00:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Endorse, there were two relists where no one weighed in. This was by no definition premature. Did you ask the deleting admin for a copy to improve in draft space? That would make sense if you believe you can improve it to where a G4 no longer applies. Star Mississippi 01:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Endorse - Correct interpretation of the consensus. No keep !votes were made in the discussion and the sources brought by the requestor here were not presented in the discussion. The nominator at AfD also does not show any indication of a failure in their BEFORE duties. The closer cannot be blamed for assuming that a third relist would have yielded similar results as the first two. Delete was the only option here. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 03:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Allow a Relist per Extraordinary Writ, preferable to a restore due to involving NCORP (which is indeed a higher bar to meet than GNG). ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Overturn, with my apologies I saw this, thought that it was absurd, and failed to say so at the time. I can only opine in so many deletion discussions, and mistakenly assumed that other editors would chime in, as this area is not a core interest of mine. I was wrong. The decision is wrong on the merits, no matter who participated and how, and if DRV isn't the right place to say that--what is? Jclemens (talk) 04:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Restore we now have sources. The Chicago Tribune one is solid. WSJ is light. The Puget Sound ones I can't see, but they look likely to be fine. Closer's close was okay, but now we have sources. Hobit (talk) 08:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Relist. The first relist never actually made it onto the log, so this was really only relisted once. Given the good-faith request above and the low participation, a second relist is reasonable; the sources are decent but not so good that I'd want to just overrule the AfD (especially since WP:NCORP is stricter). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
I'd be fine with a relist too. But I note that until and unless N is changed, a corporation can meet GNG or the appropriate SNG, CORP, to be notable. Jclemens (talk) 09:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
As I was writing my comment, I very specifically thought: "if I say that, Jclemens is going to reply that NCORP doesn't override the GNG". I guess I've finally reached the exalted status of DRV regular. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Welcome to the club! :-) Misplaced Pages works best when we all collaborate despite its imperfections. Jclemens (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Restore based on new sources available and the minimal participation at the AFD. Any user is able to renominate for deletion. Relisting is a good option as well and would be my second choice. Frank Anchor 16:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Restore. I find no fault in how the AfD was closed. However, limited participation in it allows us to treat the outcome as a soft-delete, even if it wasn't spelled out as such, and restore the article in response to any good faith request. Owen× ☎ 16:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Endorse own close. And forgive any confusion, as I just now changed my name back to my old name. It is not the closers' job to do their own research and reach their own conclusion, but to do their best to read consensus. I don't see how, with the discussion that was held, there was a compelling argument made to keep. That being said the technical issue with the relisting and the apparent availability of sources that were somehow not found by the particpants in the AFD is enough to justify another relist. I think this is the first time I've had a close challenged by someone who did not actually participate in the deletion discussion. That would've been where to make the case. I utterly reject the notion that it was premature. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
No, your close was fine--the discussion sucked and utterly failed to find the sources that existed. I had more obligation, as someone who monitors DELSORT Washington, to go find and list the sources our appellant did, and I failed to. The process was correct, the result was wrong. Jclemens (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

No one here, with the possible exception of the appellant, is claiming that you erred in your close, Beeblebrox. The only question before us is what to do with the page now, seeing as we found new sources. Owen× ☎ 20:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Endorse and Allow Recreation There is no error in the close. That said, if new sourcing can be added to the article that meet our notability requirements, there should be no objection to recreation by tenured editors in good standing. --Enos733 (talk) 20:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Endorse - There is no error in the close. There was no need for the closer to relist the discussion, and there is no need to overturn the close and relist the discussion to allow new sources. It is not necessary to come to DRV to ask for permission to submit a new draft, or to create a new article subject to AFD. Is there some way to advise editors who have found new sources are deletion that they don't need to come to DRV? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
I would hope that a user with seventeen years of experience on the project would at least try just asking the deleting admin to restore it as a draft so they could improve it and return it to mainspace, but apparently jumping straight to DRV without talking to he closing admin first is the preferred option these days El Beeblerino 20:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, editors often make a mistake in asking the deleting administrator to restore a deleted article to draft, or in asking DRV to restore a deleted article to draft, when they would be better off to start from scratch. If the article was deleted for lack of notability, the article that does not establish notability may not be useful. If the article was deleted as promotional, the deleted article is almost certainly not useful. Many DRV requests are unnecessary because permission is not needed to start a new draft if the title was not salted. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Draftify. If the reasons for deletion can be demonstrated to be overcome, allow mainspacing. This is a higher requirement than overcoming G4. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Endorse and restore only three participants, only two !votes - the closer had no choice, but I have no problem if this is soft restored. Since NCORP is involved I also support draftifying before restoring, but I haven't seen what was deleted. If it's not very good, I'd draftify. SportingFlyer T·C 20:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Restore. Given the list participation at the AfD, I believe that it is best to treat this as a soft deletion that can be restored on request of good faith editor citing sources. A new AfD can be started by any interested user, but I see no compelling reason to require one. As for the close itself, it was clearly within admin discretion and no blame should attach to Beeblebrox. Eluchil404 (talk) 00:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Endorse. The process was obviously followed correctly. An additional relist was an option but far from necessary. The outcome should not be overturned for any reason and should not be reinterpreted as a soft deletion. The page can be restored to draft. The DRV starter should have requested that.—Alalch E. 17:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.