Talk:Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Rob Eshman (June 19, 2024). "Misplaced Pages called the ADL 'unreliable.' It's a wake-up call the civil rights organization badly needs". The Forward. Retrieved June 20, 2024. One featured item of evidence: Editors' removal of an article titled "Nazism in Palestinian Society," which they flagged as "soapbox," or leaning toward anti-Palestinian advocacy. Not mentioned: That Misplaced Pages offers a far more thorough entry, "Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world" which delves deeply into the Nazi-Palestinian alliance.

half-apes or half maniacs?

Hitler called the people of the Far East and Arabia "Halbaffen". The great majority of English translations use the literal "half-apes", but at least one uses "half maniacs", namely this (p259). The English phrase "half maniac" seems to be pretty obsolete; once it referred to a person with wild unpredictable behavior or something like that (I can't find a formal dictionary definition, can anyone?). It would be reasonable to mention both possibilities, but not to replace the common translation with a phrase few people now understand. Zero 01:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC

Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik.

Hitler will

Can somebody explain how including that is not WP:OR? nableezy - 06:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a primary source. Completely inappropriate for anything in the lede. It's about public opinion in some countries and could be summarized thusly: "Hitler wrote that Italy's colony in Libya and atrocities there - as well as German support for France's colonies in North Africa - hurt the cause of The Axis in the region."Dan Murphy (talk) 14:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

But what’s that even have to do with the subject of this article? nableezy - 18:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Not a damn thing. I'm all for removing it.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Hitler being worried about Italian colonialism and atrocities impacting Germany's ability to penetrate the Arab world is fairly relevant to this article, no? In any case, I'm pretty sure I've seen this brought up in an RS; will try to dig it up so we don't have to rely on a primary source. Meluiel (talk) 23:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

There needs to be some reliable sources connecting Hitlers will to the topic of this article or it will be removed again. And per WP:ONUS consensus is needed to restore disputed content. nableezy - 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

David Motadel (author of Islam and Nazi Germany amond other works) quotes it:

https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/124/3/843/5487058

Beginning at "In the last days of the war, Hitler, under siege in his bunker in Berlin," ..

he also quotes it in the conclusion of Islam and Nazi Germany

In the last months of the war, in the Berlin bunker, Hitler lamented that the Third Reich’s efforts to mobilize the Muslim world had not been strong enough.1 “All Islam vibrated at the news of our victories,” and Muslims had been “ready to rise in revolt,” he told Bormann.2 “Just think what we could have done to help them, even to incite them, as would have been both our duty and our interest!”

page 313

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Islam_and_Nazi_Germany_s_War/0D1rBQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%20in%20the%20last%20months%20of%20the%20war,%20in%20the%20Berlin%20 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 19:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

And where does that source connect that to the topic of this article? nableezy - 20:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

" In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe’s empires, Hitler’s final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime’s anticolonial policies had not gone far enough."

Motadel makes a good point in connecting this document to Hitler's failure to create an actual anti colonial policy Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 21:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, what specifically in that source relates this to Nazi Germany's relations with the Arab world? nableezy - 22:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

What part of the world do you think Motadel is referring to when he says "the colonial world" in the context of brining up this document?

Brazil? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

It doesn’t really matter what I think but that still, even if one were to say he meant the Arab world, make any connection between relations of Nazi Germany and the Arab world and that quote. nableezy - 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I'll post the full quote from the end of the American Historical Review article that @Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) mentioned:

In the last days of the war, Hitler, under siege in his bunker in Berlin, lamented the failure of his regime to cooperate more successfully with anticolonial movements, telling his secretary, Martin Bormann, that their concessions to Vichy France and their loyalty to Fascist Italy in the colonial world had been disastrous: "Never, at any price, should we have put our money on France and against the peoples subjected to her yoke. On the contrary, we should have helped them to achieve their liberty and, if necessary, should have goaded them into doing so." Similarly, he bemoaned the Italian alliance, which had prevented a stronger anticolonial policy in the Italian Empire, the French Empire, and beyond: "Had we been on our own, we could have emancipated the Moslem countries dominated by France; and that would have had enormous repercussions in the Near East, dominated by Britain, and in Egypt. But with our fortunes linked to those of the Italians, the pursuit of such a policy was not possible." In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe's empires, Hitler's final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime's anticolonial policies had not gone far enough.

It's pretty clear this passage is relevant for us—a post-facto regret on Hitler's part on the inability for Nazi Germany to stir up revolt in the Middle East against the British and French, his capabilities hobbled by the requirements of Italy and Vichy France. Meluiel (talk) 01:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Except Hitlers laments don’t say anything about Germanys relations with the Arab states. This isn’t a compendium of the things Hitler had wished were true, this is an article on the relations Nazi Germany had with the Arab states. nableezy - 03:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding, but is your contention that this detail should not be included because it didn't come to pass?

I think that a notable failure such as this actually tells us quite a lot about Germany's relations with the Arab World—Hitler's attitude, his goals, and the constraints imposed on Germany's relations by their pre-existing alliances.

There are plenty of notable null results, and this—backed up by a reliable source as it is—seems very much like one of them. Meluiel (talk) 14:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

No, it should not be included because no source connects this to relations of Nazi Germany with the Arab world. Please provide a quote from a reliable source that explicitly connects those topics. nableezy - 14:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Please see above:

In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe's empires, Hitler's final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime's anticolonial policies had not gone far enough.

Explicitly connects Hitler's remarks to Nazi German colonial policy as requested. Meluiel (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

But does not connect them to Nazi Germanys relations with the Arab states. That was the request. nableezy - 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The Arab world clearly falls under the category of "colonial policy" and the "colonial world" of the French and Italian empires: Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and so on. This is the academic consensus. See, for example, the discussion of Italy's colonial aims in the Arab world in and their Libyan colonial policy in . Meluiel (talk) 15:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, without telling me what you think is clear, what in that source directly links this quote with Nazi Germanys relations with the Arab states? nableezy - 16:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Claimed to be?

Dear forum.

On 2024-11-19, there the following change was applied (added words are in bold)

One foundation of such collaborations was the antisemitism of the Nazis, which was claimed to be shared by some Arab and Muslim leaders, although themselves semites, most notably the exiled Palestinian leader, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem

The segment , although themselves semites was later removed. However the segment claimed to be remained. The description of the change is: added a couple of sentences and sources to back them There is no reason to add claimed to be and it changes the original meaning. Unless a good explanation is provided, I am going to revert the sentence "claimed to be".

Thank you, and Happy holidays!

Link to exact change: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world&diff=prev&oldid=1258474935 Ofer.molad (talk) 18:18, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Motadel, David (2019). "The Global Authoritarian Moment and the Revolt against Empire" (PDF). The American Historical Review. 124 (3): 843–877. doi:10.1093/ahr/rhy571. ISSN 0002-8762. Retrieved 2024-12-22.
Arielli, N. (2010). Fascist Italy and the Middle East, 1933–40. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 167–175. ISBN 978-0-230-23160-3.
Segrè, Claudio G. (1974). Fourth Shore: The Italian Colonization of Libya. Chicago, Ill.: Univ. of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-74474-2.

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