Talk:Anti-Americanism - Misplaced Pages

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A very good piece, in my opinion. Many compliments to the writer. S.M.

Archives

Opinion Poll section in the Middle East

Just one minor complaint, in the opinion poll on middle east attitudes I don't see what relevance opinions on Jews have to anti-Americanism. I can understand the Christian statistics perhaps being relevant, but the Jewish statistics, whilst interesting, have no direct relevance to anti-Americanism. blankfrackis 15:35, 05 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources?

"The French Revolution, seen by some as influenced by the American Revolution,..." Can we get any sources on this?~~LtDoc~~

A number of assertions throughout are lacking citations and furthermore loaded, such as concerning perceived causes of Anti-Americanism. Citations might relieve the loading, but also sentence structure such as: "This exposed previously isolated countries to the spread of the English language and American popular culture. A process that some have labeled Cultural imperialism despite the fact it is driven by consumer choice." I have edited that paragraph to read: "This exposed previously isolated countries to the spread of the English language and American popular culture, a process that some have labelled Cultural Imperialism despite the role played by consumer choice." Even this is not ideal but as I don't have sources I won't mess any more. I have flooded the paragraph and a couple of others with tags. --Dom

11/14/06 changes to "Regional Attitudes: Middle East"

I'm curious whether the most recent edit to the 'Middle East' section is based on the survey the article was citing or not:

The change was from, "Hatred of the US is strong in some foreign countries, especially those that are strongly Islamic. In such countries, the anti-Americanism is often paired with broad support and admiration for Osama Bin Laden."

to, "However most of these countries showed a marked distinction between negative perceptions of the United States, and much less negative of Americans."

I read the Pew Research survey and number one, it is a survey about Muslim attitudes towards Westeners, not specifically Americans, (and vice versa of Westerners towards Muslims) and number two, it states support for Osama bin Laden in muslim countries is from 24% to 60%, so I don't know why the author edited out everything about support for OBL.

It also states, "large percentages in nearly every Muslim country attribute several negative traits to Westerners - including violence, immorality and selfishness," so that is about the people and not the country, as opposed to what the edit states.

Ridiculous

Absolutely ridiculous! Anti-Americanism. You should never be anti any country, ethnic grouup, religion and so on! By the way, a lot of the media (not all) that us folks in Canada watch is American. Some people who hate Americans like to listen to American music or watch American movies. There are girls that love Brad Pitt and George Clooney or some other good looking guy, yet they hate Americans?! Ridiculous. I have met many nice people in that country and how dare a country like Canada, who supposedly is a tolerant and accepting country, say things against other countries. Who's going to be there when there is an attack on us? Our army is certainly not powerful enough to fight on their own. The USA will be there at our side. Also to any Canadians out there, our governments in the past have not always been the best either, so who are we to say anything? Go America!

Tito A. Martinez

PS This is coming from a Canadian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.112.218 (talk) 00:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Whoa, dude, calm down. Everybody's entitled to an opinion. If someone's anti-American, that's just their opinion. No need to fight about it or get nationalistsic.

Yes and no. The USA did some very deplorable things, or was accused of. It's very ok to dislike if you have good reasons. It's not ok to hold things against a people (generaly), but you can toward a governement.

And that is no excuse to be uncritical of the USA under the weasel pretext that bad guys are out to get us. Do we have to close our eyes on the evil done by somes americans? Evil is evil, no matters the reason given for.

Ok first not all Canadians are anti american, which is what it seems like your saying (guy up top) and secondly Anti American doesnt necessarily mean you hate anything american made or anyone american born. I'm canadian, and well, on American television and movies canadians are made fun of a lot. Whilst on canadian programming....nothing discerning the USA. Unless the show frequently does this. You also make yourself sound to be an american trying to make the USA sound better.

Check the IP, accuser. That would be quite a trick to make it look like it was Canada. 68.229.201.181 18:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It is quite easy to make yourself look like you are from another country. I appear to be from Korea now. 219.241.43.250 03:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah and the USA has good bands that's why someone who is anti-american may listen. I mean take the project called "Rock against Bush" this included many bands such as NOFX(American), Rise Against(American), The Offspring(American). Many people consider themselves "Anti American" because they disagree with the war, and George Bush, etc. That is why if you're anti american you would listen to american music. Shazaam info! (RiseAgainst01 00:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

Sorry guys, this is not a soapbox. There is such a thing as anti-americanism, so an encyclopedia has to describe it. That's the only purpose here. DirkvdM 17:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, wikipedia is not a soap box, although the talk page can be... I just want to point out though, that while the existence of the concept of anti-americanism is undoubtedly true, the existence itself is more questionable. 204.52.215.68 16:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not canadian and have little idea about anti-americanism in Canada. But, for sure, anti-americanism exist in Latin America, where I'm from. Talking from this point, as latin and sociologist, I can understand the mention of an institutional concept of antiamericanism as a sentiment about all-northamerican-people... But this, simply, its just a relatively minor and less relevant phenomena. There isn't in Misplaced Pages an article about prejudices of chilean over bolivian people, nor about prejudices bolivian over chilean people, and both FOR SURE exists. Particular expressions of nationalist prejudices doesn't require an own article. Antiamericanism does... Why? because isn't about northamerican people, but about US foreign policy. In latinamerica during the 70's, nearly every one famous speech against US state clearly that latinamericans doesn't hate US people, but his government, his great firms, etc. In many cases, this was accompanied with support messages to workers, or black, or indians, or other social movements in the USA.

Other phenomena clearly distinguish antiamericanism from nationalist prejudices. In modern history, nationalist prejudices are strongly correlated with right wing politics, with argueable but minor exceptions dued to specific historic contingencies (such spanish republican anti-moor sentiment encouraged against auxiliar nationalist forces). At least in latin america (I'm tryng to keep my affirmations here, but I truly believe they apply widely) antiamericanism isn't only widespread, but's absolutely transversal to politic identification (and to not politic identification).

So, I doesn't see antiamericanism as a so "ridiculous" problem, and I think in the article is depicted like a phenomena about irrational attitudes who is not. Also think the "americas" section it's highly euphemistic. Antiamericanism in Latinamerica it's, (and I'm referring to clearly established facts) related to; sistematic support to state terrorism and sistematic intromission in domestic affairs during cold war and after it. Just in Chile (my country) are many terrorist acts and direct interventions who where perpetrated, according to CIA files, by the US. Saying "US support for dictators such as Augusto Pinochet" or "Support for the 1973 Chilean coup d'état" sounds like diplomatic decissions, and are obviously euphemistic. IsmaelPR 06:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Headlines + snobbery

I think we should revisit the headlines; a lot of the level fours don't make sense where they are and we jump between a chronology and isolated ideas.

I also don't know about "Snobbery." At present it's just seems a means to get a Fawlty Towers quote on the page. Marskell 18:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I;m pro American but..

i drive a japanese car

I wear clothes made in China

And eat Mexican & Chinese Food

??????

Angry Aspie 02:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Does it really contradict, though?

USA

The anti American article is perfect. I understand why other countries hate the USA. The USA is bias, and does anything in the name of freedom and democracy whilst having other motives. It is just like the United States article, completely staged and at such a slant as to make any propaganda look fair. - --Margrave1206 18:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Am I missing somthing here? Is that your opinion above or are you being sarcastic? I've seen you edit this article. Have you got a personal axe to grind? 68.229.201.181 04:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The entire US? All 300 million Americans sharing the same bias? That's impossible. Signature 22:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The US is bias? Speak English good... I didn't think that wikipedia was a vehicle for other nation's inferiority complexes... I could be wrong though.--Rotten 08:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

WP is not a soapbox. Please contribute to the discussion of improving the article. Thanks.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I know this isn't the right place for this, but I'd like to say one thing: I am American, and I completely agree with you Margrave. Too often, the United States acts in its own self-interest while championing "freedom and democracy". In our defense, though, I'd like to point out, that most of these policies are instituted by our completely out-of-control government, and are despised by millions of Americans. Only a moderate percentage of Americans are the self-centered, hypocritical cowboys our government makes us out to be. Sloverlord 03:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Sloverlord. Ps. Kirb wp is used as a soapbox and worst, many articles are bias. --Margrave1206 04:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Since we're on a SOAPBOX, the Wiki antiAmerican article is used as a rant page for nonAmericans. Wiki should be ashamed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.204.129 (talk) 11:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

You're right of course... geniuses like Margrave ("USA is bias") as well as pro-Americans rant on here. But in the articles, just edit them where you see fit. I and some other intelligent Wikipedians are watching these little bastards closely, making sure their bile doesn't seep into any worthwhile pages (like the US page).--Rotten 09:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Rotten, the USA page worhtwhile? If Goebbels worked for the USA it would have been his best work. --Margrave1206 20:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

So Rotten seems to be very concerned with how America is being treated on Misplaced Pages. He constantly brings up something about an "inferiority complex" or something like that. Yet he goes on to mock and belittle other users based on their spelling and grammer. Misplaced Pages exists internationally in case you didn't know. Also in case you didn't know, those people are entitled to their own opinions, and those opinions are worth just as much as yours. You attacking them based on their grammitical shortcomings gives people reason alone to be anti-american based on your actions. Lead by example my friend. It is clear you regard the US as the greatest nation in the world, so just remember you represent it and others might judge you based on things you say. You go on to say that you(and several others) are greatly intelligent, and you must keep an eye these fabled, "Little Bastards" to see if they write anything you don't approve of. What you are saying here is that you are inherently smarter than others on this issue, and anyone else is poison to what is otherwise good. What is good? You cited "the US page" as being good. Typical of the attitudes people who dislike America often cite, in my opinion.

I am not anti american. I am pro-open mind, and anti-jerk. Open mind doesn't mean accept everything regardless of anything. It means think for yourself, and come to your own conclusions. I do not agree with some things the U.S government is currently doing and I don't agree with many things they've done in the past. All the same, I understanding hatred against a nation is unjust based on those things. You are the only one who's talking about an inferiority complex, and it seems to be your general rebuttle to anything anti-american. I am not saying all anti american sentiments are just, but many of them are founded in something. By immediately treating every anti-US sentiment as inferiority complex, you only come off as being arrogant and unable to think. All things considered it looks more to me(I could be wrong) like you have a superiority complex. You love your country and that is fantastic(this is not sarcastic). Just keep an open mind, and don't be a dick. Cheers, g4cubeguy@hotmail.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.157.189.212 (talk) 21:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

"...just remember you represent it and others might judge you based on things you say..." That would make you anti-Rotten if you have a problem with what he says. Not anti-American unless you are a narrow-minded dick (as you put it) and base your whole perception of a country on Rotten's comments. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.204.129 (talk) 10:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Canadians

I do not have the time to read this all the way through, but is there anything concerning Canadian Anti-Amercanisim or whatever. Just thought that should be put up, for obvious reasons.

I've tried, but when you put something that is clearly mindless hatred against Americans, having nothing to do with foreign policy, some regular editors remove it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.204.129 (talk) 11:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

Maybe some Canadians are anti-american because of people like you, who assume that any sort of criticism is completely unfounded and is simply an inferiority complex. Open your mind, open your brain, open your eyes.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.157.189.212 (talk) 20:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Who is talking founded or unfounded? The purpose of the article is to show antiAmericanism, not justify everything anti-American. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.204.129 (talk) 10:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Wasn't the purpose of wikipedia initially as a resource for information? To say that Anti-Americanism exists is obvious. To justify it seems right to me, I mean obviously if it was all baseless then such a large amount of the world wouldn't feel anti-american, if only to a small extent in many allied countries. So if there are reasons, then shouldn't they be stated? I'll agree that much ("Death to America!") is a litte drastic, but some ("Americans can be so arrogant!") has some basis. Admittedly not all Americans are arrogant, but enough are to be worth mentioning, don't you think? 24.86.59.67 03:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Latin America Section

I plan to expand the Latin American Section. Here are two NON RS V sources listing events that lead to Latin American anti Americanism.

List One

List Two

I propose to include 20 - 25 of the most significant. I also feel that the 64 Canal Zone riots should be covered Martyrs'_Day and maybe even touch on the Rivera murals at Rockefeller Center in the 30's Link

IYHO, what events are notable enough for inclusion? Thanks - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Henry de Montherlant

I removed Henry_de_Montherlant from the Degeneracy thesis section. He was a 20th-century figure and seemed out of place and misleading in a section otherwise devoted to 18th-century opinions. Perhaps he would be relevant to another section of this article. --OinkOink 01:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Asia

In this section I'm removing the paragragh on the kidnapping of Martin and Gracia Burnham in the Phillipines. I don't see how this relates directly witht the topic at hand. The group is not aligned with the Phillipine Government nor did it express the kidnapping had anything to do with anti-american sentiment (in reality it may have but this point was not put into the paragraph). 21 January 2007 220.253.53.29 06:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Jealousy?

I know I will be flamed for this by the angry, reactionary denizens of Misplaced Pages, but just possibly could jealousy be a factor in anti-Americanism. Serious replies only, please.--Rotten 08:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

And, to be non-biased, perhaps all anti-ism's are tinged with a hint of jealousy? Or at least a few.--Rotten 09:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

On some level sure, but it definitely isn't the only (or even necessarily the primary) motivation. I think a lot of Americans would like to think it is, since it reinforces the smug and ethnocentric superiority we often like to have towards others and it makes it easy for us to dismiss any serious criticism of our culture. It's an easy out to say they are just jealous. Ungovernable Force 09:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hold your horses, partner. I didn't say it was THE motivation. I said that perhaps, in some instances, it was a motivation. But yes, clearly you're right... my post implies that all criticism of America is pure jealously and nothing more.--Rotten 09:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

To Ungoverable: "it reinforces the smug and ethnocentric superiority we often like to have towards others"... Wow, you're making a lot of assumptions on what a lot of Americans think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.204.129 (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, I've lived in America for about two decades and I've been trained to critically observe people's cultural customs and beliefs. I think I'm in a pretty good position to make such a judgement. It's not an assumption; it is based on careful observations of American society, of which I'm a part. Ungovernable Force 06:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

TWO DECADES?? Oh my, you're the most qualified person around. You probably think polls are facts. 68.229.201.181 03:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sure some people are jealous of the USA. However the old world is not the one trying to define itself in the image of the British empire. Nor does the old world have to diminish the past glories of others to uplift itself. Some hide behind constitutions whilst doing all manner of justified iniquity. I must say that this article is at least fair than most. However it still needs more info. --Margrave1206 20:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

See market dominant minorities, for one look at this.

I would personally say that jealousy usually has an object over-and-above the parties involved; if I'm jealous of somebody, I'm actually jealous of something they have that I don't. But then consider that the average European has a better quality of life than the average American. What's to be jealous of? Inferior American health care? The average non-Western doesn't have a better quality of life, of course, but then the jealousy of the non-Westerner is directed at the West in general, and not at America particularly.

"Resentment", rather than "jealousy", is probably a better description: many resent American foreign policy as being unilateral etc., even if they aren't necessarily jealous of the average American. The one thing that people might both resent and be jealous over is American military capability (it is peerless, after all); but look at the present screw-ups with the use of American military capability and "they are all jealous" ceases to make sense...

Oh, and no one add any of what has been discussed under this thread to the article without a source. OK? Marskell 21:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you the Wiki watch editor of this article? (I don't know what term to call it) Why did you remove the internal link to Carolyn Parrish and the Gatas Parliament and "Stupid American" videos? I just want to know your reasoning and why they shouldn't be added by Wiki policy. I am confused about it.

"but then the jealousy of the non-Westerner is directed at the West in general, and not at America particularly" - the US is the most iconic western nation. When an individual resents the west they resent the US, when they envy the west they envy the US. The US represents the western world as it is the largest western nation and being jealous of the west may in the minds of many translate into jealousy of the US. Signature 21:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that within wealthy nations, there exists some jealousy that exhibits itself as anti-Americanism... although they might not be resentful of our wealth, they are jealous of our power, visibility, influence, and achievements. Some anti-ism might go back the other way and it may be due to jealous on American's part... but not as much. So in short, I disagree.--Rotten 20:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not certain if it is mentioned in the article or not, but it is definately worth mentioning as a potential factor. Keep in mind there are many anti-american sentiments all over the planet, and jealousy could in several places be feasable. I don't think its possible to prove, but worth mentioning...

(resert indent) Sure, jealousy is definitely one of the causes of Anti-Americanism. It's not just America, people envy the EU, Japan and Australia as well. All wealthy nations are envied and the US is the highest profile 1st world nation. Jealousy should definitely be mentioned in this article-it does need to be referenced of course. Signature 00:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have not ever met someone who was jealous of Australia.--Margrave1206 01:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have. But what you or I have experienced is irrelevant -- what matters in WP is information that can be verified through reliable sources. Raymond Arritt 01:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with jealousy. I think it has to do with being the 'Big Dog' and what they've learned in their culture. I am more concerned about how Wiki editors decide what is and what isn't anti-American. How many editors of this article have been a victim of anti-Americanism?

The severe reaction of non-American's to the suggestion that a portion of anti-Americanism might be due to jealousy leads me to believe that it probably has something to do with jealousy, at least in part.--Rotten 20:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

What's that. Are we jealous of your guns? Of your violence? Or what exactly? Of your President? And what has this to do with anti-americanism anyway. see WP:NOR, SqueakBox 21:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Accomplishments, power, influence, and visibility to name just a few. It's just a suggestion... but I'm sure I could scrounge up some research which supports my contention.--Rotten 21:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That woul;d be great, SqueakBox 22:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC) --Rotten 17:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm just going to repeat that resentment is a much better word (and probably far easier to source) than jealousy. There is, for instance, a tremendous amount of resentment in the Mid. East (where I live) re: favouritism to Israel; the Iraq war; perceived American arrogance; a general sense that the reputation of Islam is taking a drubbing (many blame Al Queda and America, on that score).

But I have yet to meet the Gulf Arab who is jealous of America or Americans in the typical sense of the word. The development of an indigenous service sector is low (e.g., they travel abroad for much health care) but this aside, the quality of life in much of the Arabian Gulf (the supposed hottest of hotbeds regarding AA) is also equal to or better than the American; no need to be jealous of a swimming pool in an American backyard if you have your own.

If there's one place it might be apt, I would guess France—the loss of empire and prestige, and all that. Marskell 14:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Your loud protests on the subject speak volumes. I said nothing about quality of life and I don't think it's even quantifiable. One person's high quality of life is another person's low quality of life. I feel that while some AA is warranted, I think that resentment and jealousy both play a factor. I'm not going to add it though, I feel that it should be documented that their was dissension on this topic (although dissension isn't well tolerated on Misplaced Pages).--Rotten 17:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

What loud protests? I'd suggest, that you're looking for "protests" and thus reading it in to the commentary. By all means, dissent away—my point is largely semantic, anyhow. Compare resentment and jealousy.

What does that prove? That there is support for both? It's a number of hits on a Google search function. It's a meaningless function. It does nothing to alter my fundamental point that jealousy may be a factor. --Rotten 19:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Re the rest of it: happiness, perhaps, can't be quantified (I've read Nigerians are the happiest folks in the world, when surveyed) but quality of life is regularly measured. See Human Development Index, for instance (the US comes out pretty well, of course). I mentioned it because it seemed an obvious thing one might be of jealous... Marskell 17:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I restored the content you deleted since you so maturely refused to discuss with me. Don't remove it again unless you have Wiki rules to back it up. That's all I asked for in the first place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.201.181 (talk) 04:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

Well I never mentioned it... I think that most attempts to measure QOL are pointless and useless... people vote with their feet. But obvious US power and influence is pretty disproportional among individual nations and this might breed resentment (yes) and jealousy. --Rotten 19:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This thread started with a very general talking point and you received very general responses. Of course, resentment and jealousy go hand-in-hand; I was just teasing out the difference. The search doesn't prove anything; it suggests that resentment is more often discussed in relation to AA than is jealousy in scholarly works. And it's not a meaningless function if you actually want to scrounge up sources. Some of the sources on the page now were pulled from such searches. Marskell 20:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this discussion is much more interesting than the actual article (which is utterly useless in my opinion). I am inclined to believe that anti-Americanism is probably more resentment than jealousy (though there are almost certainly many who are envious of America's military and economic power).

I think some people are Anti American because tehy dont think American power and influence are a good thing, which isnt jealousy or resentment but political opinion, SqueakBox 16:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

To call "jealous" a social phenomena so widely extended as antiamericanism it's and obvious psychologization of social problems, who fail to reach any methodological value. You can't understand social phenomena like a summatory of personal feelings. Resentmen, for same reasons, isn't a better option. I think many things in the article, and specially many opinions in this talk, try to imagine antiamericanism as an irrational sentiment, who's not. See my com in section "Ridiculous", please, about antimaericanism in latinamerica. I think I should have it placed here.IsmaelPR 17:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't social phenomenon psychological almost by definition? A society is a collection of individuals, each with their own unique psychology. If you find a high incidence of a particular psychological trait in some social group, it's fair to say that in a collective sense the group posesses that trait. Of course, that line of thinking opens the door to racism, etc, so you've got to be careful about how you define the group. But it's clear to me that the group of "people who exhibit anti-Americanism" have a high incidence of the traits you see in individuals who feel excluded, or perceive themselves as having a status lower then they deserve. Don't know if anyone can dig up a source on that, but it seems like an obvious idea -- must be something somewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimSheehan (talk • contribs) 13:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Maybe envy is a better word for it. Is there a word halfway between envy and resentment? In any case, the situation with Bin Laden would be a good illustration. After the victory against the Soviets in Afghanistan -- with the U.S. providing assistance to his side, if not him directly -- he offers to protect the Saudis from the Iraqis in Kuwait. The Saudi king declines, turning to the Americans instead. It's at that point that OBL turns his attention to attacking the U.S. (and Saudi Arabia as well). That's also a good illustration of of the foreign policy issue -- perhaps U.S. policy does promote anti-Americanism, but not in the way many people think!

No... The social phenomenon aren't psychological, that's why psychologist doesn't design macrosocial theories or political policies except in little and defined areas. Social regularities can't be explained like a summary of individual traits because that's an obvious atribution to randomness of phenomenons who could be explained by social, material and historic variables. You can, if you wish, claim a genetic source for antiamericanism, but it will appear a little crazy for me, and others.IsmaelPR 07:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Useless Article

That's probably the only thing on this planet that myself and squeakbox would agree on, that this article is completely useless. It's a dumping ground for every anti-American person that stops by and wants to show, "Look at this, this is why we hate you!" and then editors try desperately to weave the snippits of nonsense these people added into something cohesive. It's too long, it jumps from one small subject to the next. It has a ridiculous amount of peer-reviewed articles that no one is actually going to click on. And mostly, some regular editors seem to think everything anti-American needs to be justified.

"...some people are anti-American because they don't think American power and influence" yadda yadda and so forth, whatever Right, I don't think Iranian power and influence is a good thing and I think the mindless hatred coming out of the Commonwealths has no other purpose but to encourage people who are killing in the name of that hate, but do you see me over on those articles showing them how much I despise them? No. That's the difference, those who want to glorify their hatred and those who don't. 68.229.201.181 18:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It is hardly a useless article - the following is a typical example of how "anti-american" is used in news reports (its from the washingtonpost march 5 2007): A weeping man in eastern Afghanistan shouts anti-American slogans after violence that followed a bomb attack on a U.S. convoy. Notice that his grief and anger is characterized pejoratively as anti-american. Notice also how the the newspaper writer expertly left the "violence" abstract and disconnected from the people responsible for it. In fact the "violence" that the man suffered was due to american serviceman killing nearby civilians after they were car bombed. Now if an American were to be killed by an Iraqi and her friends or relatives screamed in bloody rage at Iraquis her screams would never be labelled anti-iraqui. This word "anti-american" is the product of the psychotic dream of america. Words don't always refer to things that exist - there is such a thing as phantasm or illusion. "Anti-americanism" is the alibi for americans who are to cowardly to look at the suffering that they create in others and instead magically transform it into the abstract "irrational" violence of "anti-americans".Canuckistani 04:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article is a must-have

I'm from a European country and EVERYBODY around me hates USA.. or at least they have negative feelings towards it... And I have travelled throughout Europe and I found this kind of feelings everywhere. And it all started somewhere after USA's war on/of terror. So this article isn't just someone's twisted imagination, this problem really exists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.142.51.41 (talk) 14:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

I am glad that you all hate the US, especialy the Canadian below me. I feel reassured now that all is right with the world. Cheers--Looper5920 21:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You are confused. There is no doubt that many on this planet hate or dislike the usa - that doesn't mean that "anti-americanism" refers to anything. The word undoubtedly exists but the question is whether its referent does. For example we have the words "unicorn" or "darth vader" etc... "Anti-americanism" has a similar status except its domain is political. Hating the american policy of world domination through military intervention, capalistic exploitation etc... is not the same as "anti-americanism"; "anti-americanism" is an ideological term that short-circuits any criticism of the usa IN ADVANCE. So if I hate the usa because the usa has a history of continuously invading or otherwise interfering in the affairs of sovereign countries or enslaves my fellow humans through its corporate proxies, etc... (pick your poison here) then it's a reasonable hatred. Anti-americanism, on the other hand, is a word that wants to explain all hatred or violence towards the united states as if it were abstract or unreasonable, as if any ill-will toward the U.S. happened without taking into account the actions of the US in world. It is also a cheap self-serving word - the reason for "anti-americanism" is often supposed to be jealousy - by which supporters of america imagine that everyone on the planet wants their pile of junk. Supporters of america see "anti-americanism" everywhere even in the anguish of the people they torture: it is screen word, a lying word, a cowardly word that is used by those who will not look at the crimes they commit on or towards others.Canuckistani 15:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Americans approve of torture

Good, referenced information such as the following has been stripped from this article. The following inclusion wasn't exaggerated but understated - because the Reliable Source reference states that surveys of Americans say they approve of torture!

"In recent years, America, American politicians eg Donald Rumsfeld and Americans generally are increasingly portrayed as approving torture - eg ."

What does it take to keep good information in articles? PalestineRemembered 19:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Portrayed by who or what as approving of torture? I agree that the information ought to be reinserted, but I take issue with the word "portrayed", because it doesn't say who is portraying them and it doesn't make it clear if the portrayal is accurate. Asarelah 20:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

We are here to write an encyclopaedia. We are attempting to define a (supposedly) widely-held "cultural belief". Most of the article should be based on what (articulate) "anti-American" people claim about their belief, and about the factors which cause this belief. Whether the examples are true or not is irrelevant to the cultural phenomenon (and analysis would likely be partisan and not belong in the article anyway). When Americans are known to approve of torture, and "anti-Americans" refer to this as being a factor, this information should be in the lead. The article is currently written as if "anti-Americanism" is driven by some kind of mass hysteria, hallucination or mental illness. It's almost as if the article was written to preclude any form of rational analysis eg the lead says "Whether sentiment hostile to the United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, rather than a prejudiced belief system, is often invoked to cloud the issue". The article wishes us to believe that "reasoned evaluation" is "clouding the issue". PalestineRemembered 08:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

English acknowledgement

Please do not change the usage of English within this article, ie. changing Americanisation to Americanization. Misplaced Pages is an international website, not just American. Please respect that some words are spelt differently depending on cultural background, and supress the need to edit other peoples additions to the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cjensen10292 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

How ironic you come to lecture on the anti-Americanism page. You're a complete joke. People will make changes how they see fit.

The above comment was posted by 68.229.201.181, who either doesn't know how to sign his comments or likes to leave anonymous ripostes. It's fitting that Cjensen10292 highlighted the changing of spellings in the anti-Americanism article, as it shows the way in which this article is currently being edited. You're not writing for the US edition of Time Magazine; Misplaced Pages is an international site, and Americanisms don't take precedence over British, Canadian, Australian and other Commonwealth spellings. Kronix1986 18:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe the usual policy is to use American spellings on articles related to America, however. Cadr 20:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

As I've written below, the article on "anti-communism" shouldn't be written by a citizen of the USSR, and the article on "anti-Americanism" shouldn't be written by a citizen of the USA. Nor should anyone take it on themselves to make stylistic changes to articles written by others, unless they're prepared to defend their action by reference to policy. PalestineRemembered 21:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's your reference: "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the usage and spelling of that country." (Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#National varieties of English). I have just changed it back. Citizens of the USA are, of course, free to edit this article. You won't find a reference in policy saying otherwise. Marskell 09:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Criticisms extend as far as sports, with America on the one hand being held to be inferior for not participating in the world sport, Soccer, then also being vilified when it does:

When the United States was chosen as host of the World Cup for the summer of 1994, many of the European news and entertainment media were appalled. Instead of rejoicing that the last important terra incognita for soccer was about to be conquered by the "beautiful game," Europeans loudly voiced the usual objections to American crassness, vulgarity, commercialism, and ignorance. They argued that giving the tournament to the Americans was tantamount to degrading the game and its tradition.

The statement at the top seems to be very NPOV. The 'example' given actually contradicts it - the Europeans were angry that it was being held in the US, not villifying the US for 'participating'. Could we rework this perhaps?

This article reads like it was written by a, well, American.

This article reads like it was written by a, well, American. Every point of discussion follows the following formats:

" say A, but they are wrong, since we all know that it's actually B."

" are , and here's an extract from an opinion piece written which reinforces the fact that are and mistaken."

Large sections of the article lack sources. The Snobbery section is a good example; there's no source, nor do they specify in which countries or regions this snobbery takes place in. The whole world is lumped into one category, when there are obviously tremendous differences between anti-Americanism in practice in different regions of the world. This article doesn't clearly distinguish between historical anti-Americanism and contemporary anti-Americanism. There is no racial element or anti-Semitic element in contemporary European anti-Americanism; Europe has a large immigrant and Jewish population of its own. It also doesn't adequately explore the left-right divide regarding support for America outside the US.

How this got nominated as a good article, I have no idea. It reads like it was written by an American, for an American audience, in order to reinforce American assumptions of the nature of anti-Americanism.

How this article can be improved: 1) Heavy reorganisation. Ensure what's said about past and current anti-Americanism lie in distinct sections. 2) Removal of contentious unverified statements. 3) Trying to achieve a degree of balance with regards to the opinion pieces being quoted. 4) Ensuring that the article is written in a neutral tone and does not overtly favour the American view, as it currently does. 5) Bulk up the section on anti-Americanism in the Americas. Canadian anti-Americanism needs to be mentioned, and what's said about Latin America needs to be expanded.

It would be better if somebody who's been involved in the editing of the article to do at least some of the above, but I'll do it if nobody else is forthcoming. Kronix1986 03:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The above reads like it was written by, well, an anti-American. Where are the "pejoratives" you mention? Which are the "contentious unverified statements"? Truly, it seems that you're viewing this through a lens, and I honestly hope you don't attempt a "heavy reorganization". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.202.155.178 (talk) 06:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

He makes some good points I think. The snobbery section, for example, is completely unsourced. Cadr 07:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

If people struggle to understand the US-centricity of this article, then they should enter "anti-British" into the WP search engine. They would find that that phrase appears some 481 times in the whole of EN:WP. Write an article based on those entries (or anything else you can find), and the tone of the resultant article would be totally and diametrically opposed to the one here. And there are other serious problems in this article eg the quote from Margaret Drabble is unsourced but comes from the Daily Telegraph The line quoted comes from the middle of the article, and it's been stripped from its context in a way that seriously misrepresents what Margaret was talking about. Here is the date and beginning of the article: "08/05/2003 - I knew that the wave of anti-Americanism that would swell up after the Iraq war would make me feel ill. ....... I now loathe the United States and what it has done to Iraq and the rest of the helpless world.". So her feelings are temporary based on specific, short-term things she describes eg "We have almost ceased to notice when suicide bombers are described as "cowards". The abuse of language is part of warfare. ....... ut there was something about those playfully grinning warplane faces that went beyond deception and distortion into the land of madness." If distortions this obvious were placed in Margaret's Misplaced Pages biography, I'd be concerned for BLP, Biographies of Living People. PalestineRemembered 13:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I havn't looked at this article since editing it a long time ago, and I agree that it reads more like an editorial than a (good) wiki article. This is unfortunate as it was pretty good in the past. If anyone is going to reorganize it, I would strongly recommend looking into the article's history to avoid accidently deleting any of the better sections. For the most part people have just inserted several biased statments in-between previously encyclopedic sections of text. Edders 22:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree the writing was somewhat better back in Sept 2006 when you last edited it . But it was plainly US-centric then. Compare the article Anti-Americanism with the article Islamophobia. Imagine the latter written by "militant" Muslims (though of course it is not). Imagine the Islamophobia article including the picture of the hooded prisoner of Abu Ghraib. That's pretty much equivalent to what we have now with the picture of the flag-burning. Article Anti-Americanism - "Enemies of America express their fury, intent on humiliating Americans". Article Islamophobia - "Enemies of Islam express their fury, intent on humiliating Muslims". The picture of the hooded prisoner wouldn't help (or be acceptable), and neither is the flag-burning photo.

Let me give you another analogy - think of an article on anti-Communism written by a Soviet idealogue - would that be acceptable in the encyclopaedia? We'd laugh it out of court. Why? Because an article on anti-Communism should leave readers thinking "Yes, I have a problem with that too, I'll question the next communist I meet". The article on Anti-Americanism should leave readers thinking "Yes, I have a problem with that too". Otherwise, what's the point of writing these articles and putting them into the project?

I already suggested consideration of an article on anti-Britishism based on actual sources in WP or Google.

Here's the WP article on Islamophobia again "British writer and academic Kenan Malik has criticized the concept, calling it a "myth." Malik argues that it confuses discrimination against Muslims with criticism of Islam, and is used to silence critics of the religion, including Muslims who want to reform it.". That's roughly the "conclusion" and tone that much of this article should put across. Reasonably (and even unreasonably) critical of the subject of the "anti" feelings.

My problem is that I'm not sufficiently interested or knowledgeable on this topic to do it justice. But if I were going to make incremental improvements, inserting references to Abu Ghraib and My Lai would be high on my list. Black Hawk Down and Kyoto would probably feature. My biggest problem would be that I'd have no Reliable Source to reference. Almost nobody (other than Margaret Grabble) say "I am anti-American because ...", because they're not. There *is* reflex Islamophobia in the world, there *is* reflex anti-Communism in the world, and the people holding those beliefs are not shy to talk about them. There's almost nothing like that for Anti-Americanism. It's a non-concept. The reason this article is written by Americans, and reads as if it was, is that nobody else could have written it! PalestineRemembered 20:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered's references to "conclusions" that should be drawn from Misplaced Pages articles violates WP:NPOV. If every article about a controversial philosophy supported the conclusion that the philosophy is an accurate way to describe the world, then we would have to treat articles such as Islamophobia in the same way. To paraphrase PalestineRemembered's proposed view that this article should support, the Islamophobia article should reflect the following view: "Yes, I have a problem with that too. I'll question the next Muslim I meet." Certainly PalestineRemembered is not advocating that we rewrite the Islamophobia with that slant, and if he were, it would have to be rejected as per WP:NPOV. Therefore, I see no reason not to reject PalestineRemembered's proposed slant on the anti-Americanism article. --GHcool 02:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

We need some consistency. I don't expect such a gulf in quality, reliability and neutrality between two articles on discrimination, especially ones as controversial as anti-Americanism and Islamophobia. This article relies on editorials to put most of its points across. Is this acceptable? As said before, it reads like an article written for a US magazine, the aim of which is to reaffirm the American belief that criticism of America is rooted in irrational hatred. This kind of tone, and the ending of every point with the conclusion that the pro-American view is the right one, makes this a bad article. People seem to have inserted irrelevant sentences and paragraphs over time which can only be seen as propaganda. Cadr removed two gems on the 5th of May, for example. This article needs to be overhauled. It's written with noticeable bias, relies largely on editorials, and is poorly structured. Kronix1986 05:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

People should keep in mind, this article is a part of the "discrimination" series. The subject is the villification of the U.S. and its citizens, and that's the context in which the term "anti-Americanism" is generally used. People might argue that the villification is justified, but villifiers always feel justified. They pick and choose the incidents that support their position and ignore everything else. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how this article evolves. I see it as a sort of Misplaced Pages litmus test. I noticed that just today someone in Canada didn't appreciate the fact that the article mentions anti-Americanism in Canada -- so he just deleted the entire section. (Tim Sheehan, 11th May 2007).

Some day people believing themselves to be the victims of Islamophobia will start editing here, and will almost certainly attempt to write the Islamophobia article in a similar fashion as Anti-Americanism. It will read badly to other readers, will not be acceptable under WP:NPOV and will be widely judged as un-encyclopaedic. While it is right to have the input of victims, the article needs to be written by observers if it is to uphold acceptable standards. PalestineRemembered 06:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Quotefarm

I added this template to the "Regional Attitudes" section because it is almost completely quotes. Some of the quotes are disguised as text, but they are still just quotes.--Sefringle 19:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

What the hell is going on with all these quotes inserted into the body? Marskell 09:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What a fucking mess. Do people mind if I revert to a month old version? Marskell 09:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The quotes are in because you in particular kept taking out relevant content, claiming it as "unsourced", among other claims. If you find a way to include the content, without all the quoting, by all means. But do not simply remove relevant content. Otherwise, it is apparent you are simply throwing up excuses for applying a selection bias to remove content that doesn't conform to your own POV. Porphy 01:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The article says:

Anti-Americanism, often Anti-American sentiment, is opposition or hostility toward the government, culture, or people of the United States. In practice, a broad range of attitudes and actions critical of or opposed to the United States have been labeled anti-Americanism and the applicability of the term is often disputed. Contemporary examples typically focus on international opposition to United States policy, though historically the term has been applied to a variety of concepts.

Interpretations of anti-Americanism have often been polarised. Anti-Americanism has been described as a belief that configures the United States and the "American way of life" as threatening at their core. However, it has also been suggested that Anti-Americanism cannot be isolated as a consistent phenomenon and that the term merely signifies a rough composite of stereotypes, prejudices and criticisms towards Americans or the United States.

Whether sentiment hostile to the United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, rather than a prejudiced belief system, is a further complication. Globally, increases in perceived anti-American attitudes appear to correlate with particular policies, such as the Vietnam and Iraq wars. For this reason, critics often argue the label is a propaganda item that is used to dismiss any censure of the United States as irrational.

In this introduction all cites are about american autors, just like if the anti-americanism where an north-american-wide phenomenon. In any article of Misplaced Pages, when a belief system its exposed, the article talk about what the belief system says, not about how his critics explain or try to criticize it. To say "the term merely signifies a rough composite of stereotypes, prejudices and criticisms" in the main section it's obviously a violation of NPOV; this should stay in a criticism section. It's so obvious this, to the point in the third paragraph the word "critics" it's used not to refer to critics of antiamericanism, but to talk about the critics of the critics of the antiamericanism.

Contemporary usage is often controversial. The term itself does not imply a critical attitude based on rational objections but rather a prejudiced system of thought and it is therefore rarely employed as a self-identifier (i.e. "I am anti-American...") as this implies bias. Instead, it is often used as a pejorative by those who object to another individual or group's stance toward the United States or its policies. Advocates of the significance of the term argue, for instance, that Anti-Americanism represents a coherent and dangerous ideological current, comparable to anti-Semitism. Anti-Americanism has also been described as theory that seeks to frame the consequences of difficult US policy choices as evidence of a specifically American moral failure, as opposed to what may be unavoidable failures of a complicated foreign policy that comes with superpower status.

This is simple false. When people say "I'm anti-american" doesn't want to say they have an irrational bias. They want to say they're opposed to what they see as offensive/intrussive policies, imperialist practices, intrussive cultural mods, etc. The only true in this paragraph may be what critics of antiamericanism think of it... Again, this should go in some criticism section, at the end of the article, like in any other article about similar topics.

In the section "History", there's some try to explain origins of anti-americanism as an eurocentric superiorism. That's simply false. The facts about the XVIII century may be true, but today's antiamericanism its a totally different topic, no related in any way. This supposed root it's also aplicable for nearby any other place in earth but Europe, almost always in a very more radical way. The anti-americanism isn't about europes ethnocentrics, and that seem obvious to me. By the way, I hope the lines about Sartre, existencialism and european communist parties was a joke, communist doesn't believes in souls, and Sartre was never a "status-quo" autor for the europeans communists parties.

Some critics argue that anti-Americanism ideology often correlates with other forms of perceived extremism, such as virulent nationalist movements, radical Islam, or communism.

This paragraph it's extreme. Communism it's an extremism? nationalism it's an extremism? radical islamism it's an extremism? Are not "pro-americanism" associated with "extremisms"? whi capitalism? with christianism? with imperialism? I'm removing this now, guess no much to discuss about it. The next cite it's also been removed. It simply have no place in this article... put it in some article about french americanism or other thing. About the "racialism" topic, I think it's absolutely out of place... Not removing for now.

I'll try to continue reviewing the article soon. I personally think, after sucesive mods, it's mostly a bunk of propaganda.IsmaelPR 20:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It says that communism, radical Islam, and virulent nationalism are percieved as extremism, not that that they neccessarily are extremism. There's a difference there. I also suggest moving the portions of this article that you object to you into subheading of "Criticism of Anti-Americanism", rather than deleting them altogether. Furthermore, there is the question as to how many people really do consider themselves to be "anti-American", and what the term means to them. What qualifies as being "anti-American" really seems to be fairly subjective, and I'm curious as to how many people would label themselves that way. Asarelah 03:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting the lead paragraphs, Ismael. It does not state "The term merely signifies a rough composite of stereotypes, prejudices and criticisms" but rather "However, it has also been suggested that...the term merely signifies a rough composite of stereotypes, prejudices and criticisms." It's being offered not as a definition, but as a possibility that deliberately contrasts with the sentence above it. Go through the intro again. It follows a very definite A, not-A, structure in order to be NPOV. As for American authors, O'Connor is Australian. Naturally, American authors (along with some French) are publishing most often on this topic. Marskell 07:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Spelling

Of all the stupid revert wars on this page, "Americanization" v. "Americanisation" has to be the stupidest. First, the source uses the "z". Second, the guideline is clear that when dealing with a topic specific to a given Anglo country we should use the spelling of that country. Third, there is no "correct English" per se—American English is as correct as any other. Marskell 18:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. Or would you say Pidgin-English is also correct? It is clear that only "English" English is correct - even the word itself says so. Nothing could be more clear. I completely understand that this is difficult for US-Americans. But there should not be any kind of US-bias.84.56.127.227 20:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

American English is actually closer to Shakespeare's English ("ain't," "color," "center," for ex.) than contemporary British English. If any Nazi-oid, benighted, racist imbecile like yourself wanted to refer to a dialect as "Pidgin," it should be contemporary British English. But, in point of fact, neither is Pidgin English, they are just different.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone out there who thinks that Misplaced Pages isn't, for most of its contributors to non-science articles, a forum for xenophobic U.S.-bashing? --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-13 21:28 21:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are you so angry? I suggest you calm down and admit I am right and you are wrong. OK?84.56.127.227 21:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no Standard English per se. There are normative standards, of which British and American are the most widely accepted in newspapers, encyclopedias etc. (Interestingly, Indian English may be the most widely spoken.)

Anon, I'll assume you aren't dumb, which leads me to believe you're trolling. This is an article specific to the United States; American English is an accepted register in professional writing and our guidelines tell us we ought to use it here. Marskell 22:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

"This is an article specific to the United States" - no it is specific to America not to the US. I am not sure you understand the point here. But at least you are not as rude as Cultural Freedom. 84.56.127.227 23:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

You think I'm rude? Oh, mein kleiner Freund, you are so wrong! I am a Platonist. How are things in Bayern? And, please: quit trolling! --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-14 04:21 04:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Far right connection?

"In Germany, anti-Americanism can be virulent, particularly among all the far-right and fascist political parties, Neo-Nazis, and the general population of German ultra-nationalists. "

IMHO this should really be rewritten, being quite a confident and controversial piece of original research. Alternatively, references should be cited to support both the claim that Germany stands out with a high rate of "anti-Americanism", and that this sentiment is characteristically linked with far right groups.

In any case, it would be nice to differentiate more clearly between presenting viewpoints and the general consensus in the whole article. Some sections also seem to confuse criticism and hatred, e.g. mixing fascist propaganda and peaceful protestations in the illustration. The proposed list of motives is slightly controversial and incomplete. I suggest this topic might be too broad for a single article to treat fairly and accurately. 84.2.212.38 22:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

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