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Archives

Archive 1. Archive 2. Archive 3. Archive 4. Archive 5. Archive 6.

Trolleybus stop

currently in article: In 1994 the memorial underwent a "reconstruction". Following the reopening, the visitors found the bronze headstones over the tombs removed as well as the protective barrier surrounding the burial site dismantled and a trolleybus stop was installed right atop the mass grave.
source given: "Свечи совести" для эстонских властей, Vesti, December 20, 2006.
other statement which says that trolley-bus station has been there since 1964:
Ansip: tööde varajane algus Tõnismäel ennetas konflikte, Postimees, April 26, 2007.
Im not myselfly sure exactly what changes were made in 1994 but this thing needs to be sorted out or we will get into never ending edit-war.--Staberinde 21:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The source I added speaks about the dismantling of the protective barrier over the site and further says that "now half of the grave is under the lawn and half under the trolleybus stop" while before it was protected and none were atop of it. Perhaps the trolleybus line was there before and they "reconstructed" the stop after the "reconstruction" of the memorial. I am just trying to reconcile the conflicting statements. If someone who does not read Russian wants some quotes from the source translate, please say so here. Thanks, --Irpen 21:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The "protective barrier"... What did it look like? - Was it some kind of cast iron fence? Camptown 21:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

From the source you linked above:

"Монумент красноармейцам и холм Тынисмяги буквально захоронены под стоянкой троллейбуса, то есть люди топчут их. По-христиански было бы захоронить их там, где они должны быть", - убежден депутат парламента Эстонии Райво Ярви. Рассуждая о христианской морали, официальный Таллин слегка не договаривает: ведь раньше площадка у памятника была огорожена, здесь горел Вечный огонь, а на барельефе были высечены имена всех похороненных здесь солдат. Но в начале 90-х власти независимой Эстонии сами закатали все в асфальт. "Могилу убрали городские власти, это без всякого сомнения. В 1994 году сквер был закрыт на реконструкцию. Сначала украли бронзовые надгробия с могилы, на которых были выбиты имена людей, которые были там похоронены, а потом, когда доски украли, эти надгробия, постаменты, они оказались как бы ни к чему. Убрали и постаменты. И теперь могила, ее половина, находится под газоном, а вторая часть этой могилы находится под троллейбусной остановкой", - рассказывает писатель, исследователь Михаил Петров.

Translation:

"The monument to the Red Army soldiers and the Tonismagi hillock are literally buried under the Trolleybus stop, so the people walk on them. In accordance to the Christian traditions, they should be buried where they should be", sais the deputy of the parliament "Райво Ярви" (not sure how to translit his name back into Estionian, sorry --Irpen) Raivo Järvi. The official Tallinn is somewhat tongue-in-cheek when it speaks about the Christian ethics. Earlier the area around the memorial was fenced off, there was an eternal flame and the names of all of the buried soldiers were embossed in the headstones. But in early-90s the authorities of independent Estonia asphalted this all by themselves. "The grave was removed by the city authorities, there is no doubt about it. In 1994 the park was closed for the reconstruction. First, they removed the bronze headstones where the names were embossed. Then when the plaques were stolen, these headstones, masts have seemed to become unnecessary. So, they removed them as well. And now, the grave, half of it, is under the lawn and the other half is under the trolleybus stop.", - tells the writer, researcher Mikhail Petrov.

--Irpen 23:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's Raivo Järvi. -- 82.131.52.22 23:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The road between the church and the park was widened in early 60s, trolleybus stop is located on the sidewalk of that road. In 1994 the eternal flame was removed and paved over... no clue about the gravestones. As last week's dig confirmed, the burials were in the other side of park from the monument, partially covered with the sidewalk/trolleybus stop. I'm digging through accessible photographs of the site (can't find any maps) to find out what Misha Petrov is talking about. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 00:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, no bronze gravestones to see on photo nr.5 (from 1953) in this document . In fact, it looks like the photographer was standing on top of the graves to take it, and the location of the rectangular flower patch was determined by the park's overall design, not actual burials. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Quick remark: In Estonian it is "Tõnismäe monument" ("monument" is not capitalized in correct Estonian in this context). Estonian reader.

I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the trolleybus stop was also widened around mid-eighties - but the burial place was trod over during whole Soviet time, as it was an entrance to the square. Perhaps we can come up with a photo about the stop in sixties, so it can be compared. In any case, one of the main reasons for reburial of the dead and relocation of the statue was exactly that - that the dead might have been under trolleybus stop. DLX 05:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was one of the excuses, but it certainly was not a reason. -- Petri Krohn 05:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri, please read WP:AGF. DLX 06:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith applies to other Misplaced Pages editors, not to government statements. -- Petri Krohn 06:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Further correction, AGF applies only to the edits of the Misplaced Pages editors. Also, AGF does not say "be a fool". --Irpen 06:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in bus stops. If you support me - sign below.Xx236 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank Irpen for providing accurate translation of this article, because this article is a good example of media manipulation. It says: "And now, the grave, half of it, is under the lawn and the other half is under the trolleybus stop." It's natural and logical to understand this sentence this way that after 1994 reconstructions the trolleybus stop was put on the graves. But the article doesn't say this. It describes that now the graves are under trolleybus stop and doesn't say since which time. The reason is, that the trolleybus stop at Tõnismägi was there al the time since opening trolleybus traffic in Tallinn in 1964 or 1965. During reconstructions of 1994 the asphalt pavement on the trolleybus stop was replaced by stone pavement, but the stop itself remained at the same place as during the Soviet times.80.235.55.122 16:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn again

I remember there were lots of accusations raised at one point (see: Talk:Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn/Archive_3#Petri_Krohn.27s_weird_manipulations); it looks that the user concerned continues with such 'controversial' practices (to say the least):

• Edit summary, which is inciting hatred: Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
• Adding an image to the talk page with the comment “Is this the bus stop that started World War III?” (you hope the war has begun?)
• doing some canvassing with unabashed offensive comments: “defend both the Russian and the neutral point-of-view in this article, againt a horde of agressive and hostile POV pushers from Estonia?”

Ands so forth. It's time you stopped, because the article (/talk) here is NOT your personal playground, nor is it a place for stimulating hostility. E.J. 07:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, (the comment now on archive page two) what I remember so well (probably because I commented on it then) is his comment that 9th of May celebrations would probably (or in his mind "should"?, taking into account other statements by him) end with Toompea burnt down. -- 82.131.52.22 07:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

HANDS OFF PETRI KRON! ))) Beatles Fab Four 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I think some remarks that slipped from PK have indeed been unfortunate but his edits to the article are certainly useful. Let's concentrate on the content and hope that Petri will learn from mistakes. --Irpen 07:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

We can hope that - although, last time we had that discussion here, he didn't. Perhaps it is time for Petri to take a short wiki-break. Emotions may start running too high and accusations are flying already. But I must admit that his edit summaries are rather... not nice and his edits seem to push an agenda from time to time. Hopefully this will change without need to involve Misplaced Pages authorities. DLX 08:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That comment(Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.) unfortunately demonstrates that other users need to keep eye on neutrality of Petri Krohn's edits.--Staberinde 12:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll probably be labelled as a racist but some of the bias can probably be explained by Petri's russian ancestry. Alepik 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Come on guys, Staberinde, DLX and unonimous user from Estonia, you are no better than Petri (I mean non-neutral) Beatles Fab Four 21:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian bitches!

The page titled Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007 provides a real dilemma. On the one hand it is the best photo document availably on the protest at the monument on April 26. The photos are time-stamped, and show that the police started using tear gas at 21:31. They also do not seem to show any major provocation by the protestors. On the other hand, they are an attack page aganst the protestors and Estonia's Russian community. The title uses the word Tiblad, which could be translated as "Russian bitches" (or "Niggers"). Some of the photograps also seem to be selected to dehumanize proterstors (closeups of man with no teeth).

Leaving out the link would be bad for the article. However I believe it would be wrong to link to the page without warning the reader of its expicit racist message. Not including the title as the link text would only create an ugly easter egg

Also, as this article is about ethnic tensions in Estonia, it is appropreate to include examples of racism and hate speech as references. -- Petri Krohn 03:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no way you could translate "tibla" into "Russian bitch". At best, it is similarly derogatory term like "tscuhna", which is widely used in Russia about Estonians. "Tibla" simply does not have a translation in English, as far as I know. DLX 06:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not think you can compare tibla to tšuhna. The Finnish article says that tscuhna is derived from "tšuhonets" or "tšuhonka", used for Finnish farmers selling milk in Saint Petersburg. Would some Russian please translate the originals. I do not think these have any relationship to "whore" or "bitch". --Petri Krohn 07:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

'Tibla' is a word like 'fritz' for Germans (especially for German soldiers) by neighbours of Germany, or 'paddy' for Irish people by ethnic English. It is a slang word; it is not inherently a slur, and while it does imply a particular stereotype, it is usually not used ethnicity-based, but culture-based. (Of course, being a slang word, it's also used in other ways, and sometimes by xenophobes. Also obviously, its users may fail to differentiate the culture from its people.) Such "neighbourly slurs", alas, can not be well translated.

As for the 'You whore!' exclamation; at best, it may be an etymology for the word, but it is definitely not a translation. One popular folk etymology says that 'ty bljad' (which *is* roughly Russian for 'you whore') used to be a common expletive among Russian soldiers, thus prompting Estonian villagers who had contact with them to start call them by that phrase. Obviously, such a "bird-call loan", even if it happened, removed the original meaning. To consider 'you whore' the translation of 'tibla' is just as absurd as to think that 'septic tank' is the translation of the Cockney word 'seppo', which is typically used to refer to Americans. Digwuren 17:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

there was a court case and a semiotic expertise. Tibla can be used in the press and in the books, it is not racist word.--Bete 16:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to track down the aforementioned tchuhnya (чухня). I heard and occasionally used this word meaning "crap". It may be related to чухонец, which is according to Dal's dictionary is St. Petersburg's slang for local Finns. I vaguely remember this word being used by Pushkin. Yury Petrachenko 08:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

По мшистым, топким берегам
Чернели избы здесь и там,
Приют убогого чухонца;
И лес, неведомый лучам
В тумане спрятанного солнца,
Кругом шумел.... А.С. Пушкин

Petri Krohn has not demonstrated that this page is the best photo document available, nor is the article about alleged ethnic tensions, it is about the Bronze Soldier. Adding this link is highly inappropriate, there are many Russian rascist neo-Nazi links that can added too. Martintg 06:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the Bronze soldier controversy and the related Estonian ethnic tensions. It was decided before to keep all of these in one place, here. This will later be divided into two or more separate articles about the controversy and the monument. So for now, this is an appropriate place to write about the tensions, before they die out.Yury Petrachenko 07:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a native speaker of Russian and I have never heard the "widely used" word Tsuhna. As for Tiblad, the more exact translation is not "Russian bitch" but "you bitch". If this is used in Estonia as a name for Russians in general, I am very disappointed to find this out. --Irpen 06:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mrmm, just a question, "tyi suka" (so weird to write Russian with Latin alphabet) would be "you bitch". "Tyi bladt" would translate exactly how? Also, I suspect that by far most Estonians are not aware of the origins of this pre-WWII (afaik) word and use it without realizing the original meaning. Compare it to term also used in Russia about Estonians, "kuraty" (from kurat, the Devil in Estonian, also a common swearing word). And you must admit that perhaps those rioters (more then 2/3 with criminal record) were not perhaps the best representatives of Russians (before you accuse me of racism, I have several Russian friends, one of my relatives is married to a Russian. I car-pool with a half-Russian when coming to work).

As for the "tchuhna", it is pretty widely used about Estonians and Finns. Finnish wikipedia even has a stub about it (), I am sure Petri can translate it for us. DLX 06:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this whole "Tibla" thing is a strawman. Should we search for one or two private Russian websites that contain insulting or racist comments, then post it as "evidence" that Russians are rascist in general, as Petri Krohn has done in regard to this private Estonian website? That kind of cheap shot shouldn't be too difficult I suspect. Martintg 07:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There's another important aspect to the word 'tibla'.

In its modern incarnation, the word was mainly popularised by the comic character and freedom fighter caricature Ivan Orav. Besides that, it is pretty much only used by WWII veterans of non-Russian sides in Estonia -- not even their descendants. Hence, the word has also a good grain of comic relief irrevocably attached to it, and its usage is almost invariably more for dramatic effect than for any actual classification of people, or out of intent to insult. Digwuren 18:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Again DLX and other estonian users try to move discussion out of context. I personally never never heard or read words tsuhna or kurat. But this is not the main question. Look at relevant russian articles/blogs and look how they call estonians. The strongest expression is "fascists" used by some. Here we have the whole page called "tiblad". A could cite another couple of links. So the issue raised by Petri is justified. Beatles Fab Four 07:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Finnish article in WP is not a source of anything. Several native Russian speakers here say that they have not heard those as you say widely use derogatory names for Estonians and Finns. I know a couple of anecdotes, yes, but those have no such terminology and the anecdotes that I know are rather inoffensive. Much less than the American Polish Jokes which are rather harsher and dumb. --Irpen 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be just me, but I see a term "fascists" by far more insulting and derogatory then name derived from common swear phrase, but that really isn't the issue here. Petri's note was very much out of line - as was inclusion of this web link. Sure, there have to be Estonians, who hate Russians (I don't know any), but they are extremists. So, do we start including links from Russian neo-nazis/neo-stalinists/putinists as well or shall we keep this an encyclopedia?

As for the "tchuhna", please use a Russian search engine - using Russian spelling, of course, as well. DLX 08:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here you go .Yury Petrachenko 08:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

'Tibla' doesn't mean 'russian', but 'soviet' (indication of mentality, not nationality). Like the 'kuraty' name for estonians was derived from widely-used estonian expression literally meaning 'devil' and used as mild expletitive, the word 'tibla' was derived from liberators' vocabulary. Older 'chukhna' derives from even older 'chud', used in pre-czar Russia to denote all finno-ugric nations. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

About the russian insult word for estonians - it is in time generated from Chud, historically what was used by slavic tribes for western-nordic-finnougrian tribes, now used as an insult.

"tibla" is not used anywhere in estonian press, and it's usage among people is not widespread at all. Origin of it is from another russian popular insult "tõ bljadt". "tibla" is not in itself a synonyme for russian, but used to distinguish so called 'scum' - criminals, bums, drunks etc.

On another important note - about the teargas - the clouds that are seen on those forementioned pictures from about 21:30 and in many-many videos clearly, was NOT teargas, as wrongly published in multiple Russian press articles ! What was used there was pulverised fire extinguisher, not hazardous to humans. http://tamrex.struktuur.ee/441

Only effect is somewhat dirty look, like its visible in some later pictures of demonstrants. Nor the Estonian riot-police squad or ordinary police have large scale teargas devices, only carry miniature gascanisters on belt. Only massive anti-riot device that was used was two trucks with water cannons, the one used first night broke and second night another was used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

No real point, you'll have dozens of russian sources linked to you claiming the powder on rioters' clothes is typical of teargas use. 213.35.234.15 14:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If the gallery is relevant, leave it in. The images stand for themselves; the title is an artful aspect of the selection and IMHO does not need special comments. Petri Krohn has recently reintroduced the link with comments that are clearly inappropriate, as explained above; I have reverted the aboveness from premature archival, removed the comments, and left the gallery link into the article. Digwuren 05:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The title "Russian bitches" here is completely misleading. "Tibla" means a homo sovieticus, not a bitch, and its etymology is completely irrelevant to the current usage of this word. By the way, the common folk etymology of "tibla" is that it was just derived from the most frequent words used by the Russian conquerors in 1940s. Quite similarly, the Russian offensive word for Estonians is "kuraty", and for Lithuanians, "labasy". Of course, these words are almost exclusively used by Russians in Estonia and Lithuania. And although "labas" doesn't mean anything bad in Lithuanian (quite the contrary!), it's still used as an offensive word. Lebatsnok 13:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit summary

Generally one should not read too much into edit summaries. They do not have the same authority as edits in talk pages or articles. Also, they are limited to 200 characters, so the true meaning may not fit into the space.

Regarding this edit summary: One should note it was part of a edit war with a pro-Russian editor. The whole exchange is repeated below:

1. renamed section to - →Protest and riots - + photos: Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007
2. what a link with RACIST nickname for non-estonians is doing here?!
3. restored link. 1) Excellent set of photograps documents peaceful nature of protest. 2) Caveat clearly states out derogatory nature of page title
4. I strongly disagree. It harasses non-estonian readers
5. Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
6. Only few estonians are racists. We shouldn't follow this behavior. Be polite, please!
   1. ok?
7. moved note to refs

Now that I have more than 200 characters available, I will rephrase the comment:

• You User:Beatles Fab Four, as an pro-Russian editor, should forget the insult and support this formulation, as it gives support to the Russian view that many Estonians are racists, even giving credibility the the depiction of Estonians as born again Nazis.

-- Petri Krohn 04:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, your formulation slanders the majority of good Estonians who don't hold the views of a small extremist minority. Should we characterise all Russians by the few Russian neo-Nazi skinheads we occasionally see in the media? Martintg 06:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am getting flak from both sides (I kind of expected it). I do not think I am the one slandering, but the creator of the web page. As for the popularity of the word see this Google search. The word also has an entry in both the Russian (ru:Тибла) and Estonian (et:Tibla) Misplaced Pages. -- Petri Krohn 06:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

So what? Your google search shows 145,000 hits for the word "tibla", I get 42 million hits for bitch. Do you have a point? Martintg 07:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I was clearly stupid to expect Petri Krohn to realize his mistake and appologise. But I guess that as all Estonians must be racists then I do not deserve appologise in his view. And now Petri Krohn has openly admitted that he is pushing anti-Estonian POV and is calling other Russians to follow his lead.--Staberinde 07:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no Russian ancestry, I do not even know the language. As for the dif you provided, it only points to my comment above. What are you trying to prove? -- Petri Krohn 06:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the find. It answers a few things that have been puzzling me. Digwuren 18:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we all realize that Petri's remark was an unfortunate one. However, two days have passed and it is time to move on. If you need an apology, I can give you one on behalf of the Russian-speaking community. Trying to extract an apology from someone against their will is rather silly, IMO. If you really can't move on past this, start an RfC. I would rather discuss the article and put this incident behind. --Irpen 07:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not demand an appology, just I thought it would be good way to calm down situation and show some respect. And I personally will not start RfC(although someone else may). Also I do not think that we need to continue discussing it here at the moment, but I seriously doubt that these remarks will be forgotten. Btw, I do not blame Russian-speaking community, stupididy has never recognized ethnic borders.--Staberinde 07:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Image

Yes, I did add an image of the grave site to this talk page, to the sections discussing the exact location of the graves and the bus stop. A also took the picture and uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons.

As to the comment/image caption. It has been speculated that this conflict may cause an new Cold War between Russia and the West. One must ask whether the Estonian government was aware of the consequences of its actions. It seems to me that they were aware, and acted partly as a provocation. In the parliamentary elections this was one on their themes, mayby even the deciding factor in the outcome. If this controversy ever leads to war, hot or cold, I hold the Estonian government responsible. -- Petri Krohn 05:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Political reactions

This section has became very long and probably needs to be copyedited:

1. In some cases (eg Serbia) we have a full statement included. I think that statements and reactions should be summarized and provide just the main point(s). Full statements should be avaible through reference links.

   Serbia does not not have the full statement. (I wish it had, as that statement best expresses the sentiment of the opposition to the "relocation". -- Petri Krohn 04:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC))

2. One co-editor tryd to regroup the statements of the former USSR. All that kind of groupings are POV. Most neutral will be re-arrenge the statements in alphabetical order or in accordance with the timeline (date and time of issuing).
3. One co-editor asked that only statements from the official websites of state institutions should be inserted. At the same time presidents, prime ministers, foreign ministers and speekers of the Parliaments are represent the official view of their countries without any additional credentials if it's not clearly statedthat eg they present their personal view. So, in case we don't have an official statement, but e.g. an interview to the newspaper, it could be equal to the official point of view. Of course, this doesn't apply to personal blogies.80.235.55.122 17:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good time to spin off the political reactions into a separate article. It's a well-defined part of the main topic and not affected with the need to wait for the dust to settle, as with some other subtopics. Digwuren 18:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that might be a good idea. I wouldn't be against such a split. Esn 04:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Photos and coordinates

This article consists 4 pictures of the Bronze Soldier at Tõnismägi, and no pictures at the Cemetery of the Estonian Defence Forces. Do we have any photo of the monument at the new location? Also, probably the coordinates of the new location should be added? 80.235.55.122 17:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not know if outside world can access these, but some pictures are available at delfi.ee:

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/article.php?id=15848451
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file15851844_Pronkssodur.jpg
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file15851814_Andrus_Ansipi_lilled_pronkssodurile.jpg
Other issue is if these pictures can be used in Misplaced Pages. 194.204.35.117 19:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Dolomite/limestone

Just a quick (translation) question - is "mastaba" made of limestone or dolomite? DLX 19:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a limestone.194.204.35.117 19:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is made of paekivi. The Estonian article however does not specify whether paekivi is limestone or dolomite. As far as I understand, the base rock in Tallinn contains magnesium, making the local stone dolomite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Petri Krohn (talk • contribs) 02:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Yes, I was aware of paekivi - just wasn't sure what is the correct translation, limestone or dolomite. However, I am not sure it is made from local (ie base rock in Tallinn) stone. Highest quality dolomite comes from Saaremaa or Southern Estonia, but the stone wall doesn't look that high quality - but of course, limestone and dolomite darken in weather, especially if lots of nearby traffic. Very minor matter, but perhaps we should go with just "stone" until some kind of source can be found? DLX 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is one source for dolomite: the original name of the proposal by Arnold Alas was "Dolomite". -- Petri Krohn 05:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm probably at fault for causing the confusion, so I feel a need to clarify:

The mastaba is laid of bricks cut from dolomite. However, the the mortar holding the bricks together is limestone-based. Characteristics of limestone mortar are marginally relevant to the article, for they affect the time of works of reinstalling the mastaba; however, for all other purposes, it would be more proper to say that the mastaba is made of dolomite.

Unfortunately, the Estonian word for dolomite is 'paas', which just happens to be very morphology-sensitive, so it's hard to properly google for it. Digwuren 18:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Great Patriotic War" is a POV notion

Great Patriotic War is a Soviet propaganda notion. It should be replaced in the article by a neutral name.Xx236 09:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda not, POV yes. Only some ex-USSR countries use the name. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I also disagree with the notion of it being a Soviet Propaganda notion. If you consider that historically Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812 was known in Russia as the "Patriotic War" it explains the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union being known in Russia as the "Great Patriotic War". There's nothing necessarily there that has anything to do with Soviet Propaganda except that the name was coined by Pravda in the opening days of the conflict, which I personally feel in this case is no different than someone else coining the term "World War II". However I still believe that the use of the name has a relevance to the article. --86.133.142.70 14:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

GPW isn't the same as WW2, though - it started with Hitler's invasion of USSR in 1941, as opposed to far earlier dates for WW2. Whatever happened before that, USSR considered 'business as usual'. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that's sort of what I was trying to get at. It's like for Finland, is World War II one war, or really several wars - 2 (or 3 I forget precisely how many) against the Soviet Union then one against Nazi Germany? It's tricky, I think I may stand back from my previous comment. Certainly to the Soviets they were fighting the Great Patriotic War, but in full context all the events took place during or as part of World War II. What I will stand by is that the name is definitely not Soviet Propaganda.--86.133.142.70 20:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It didn't have anything to do with propoganda, the people names it so. It was a war where the Russians were the only ones not to give up, and fight back. Villages were burned, people starved to death, people tortured and murdered, and still, the Russians didn't give up. They burned their lands, but didn't give it to the Nazis! The Russians fought back, proved themselves to be stronger and tougher then anybody else, nocked the Nazis off, and saved the whole world, from what could become the Nazi Empire of evil, where the little estonians and the rest of balts thought they could feel big.M.V.E.i. 19:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

(Offtopic) Yeah, we are very thankful for all the burning and torture that took place here. Fact is that the russian forces wouldn't have gotten anywhere without the trucks supplied by United States nor without the support of United Kingdom. No point in explaining anything to a ignoramus like yourself, though. Alepik 19:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

(Offtopic) Both arguments are flawed and ignorant. I don't think either are all that helpful either.--86.133.142.70 20:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

As someone from a family who fought there for the Red Army, i can tell you it's bullshit. UK was falling appart, USSR was it's last hope. USA gave food, yeah, but it was little if you compare it to how much needed it. The USA weappon was bad, nothing compared to the Soviet. I read a book of someone who fought for the Nazis, and he fought a time both at the Easten and both at the Western front, and he said: "Reletivily to Russians, American don't know how to fight. One Russian is like 10 Americans". Nazis after fighting at the Eastern front only dreames about turning themselves in to the Americans. In the same book the writer told that when they came to Estonia, the Estonians already killed most of the Jews. The name of the book was Tiggers In The Mudd. The whole Europe was turned into slaves by Hittler and worked for him, the Russians were alone, and yet they have won. No one burned nothing to you, you invent yourself stuff that were co-done to you to reduce your shame. Say thankyou that we, as winners didn't delete you, allies of the Nazis, from this planet. M.V.E.i. 20:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The mentioned book: "Tigers in the Mud: The Combat Career of German Panzer Commander Otto Carius", http://www.amazon.com/Tigers-Mud-Commander-Stackpole-Military/dp/0811729117

194.204.35.117 20:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

], Military deaths: Soviet Union (roughly 85% russians) 10.7mln, Germany 5.5mln, US 407 000. You draw the conclusions. Considering the Soviet Army didn't have as many weapons as they had soldiers, that meant many of them fought with their bare hands. Also note the number of jews killed in Estonia, the number is much smaller in comparison to other eastern Europe at that time. Alepik 11:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Please read the notice at the top of this talk page carefully. What's more, you weren't even talking about this article's subject, but about something only barely related. Esn 04:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey people, don't be so biased in either way. As for american weapon that "totaly suxx". Please be balanced. For example Sherman tanks was no comparison to T-34, but P-39 was quite good aircraft (after certain modifications that were reducing it's weight). You can read what Alexandr Pokryshkin was wrighting about it. And sure American Jeeps realy aid Soviet ability to move a huge forces over vast areas. As for Soviet losses - those 20 - 26 millions of a death include Soviet civilians, who were killed by Nazis, accordingly to ethnic plans of Hitler. There is why it so much of them. And don't forget that 80%+ of German soldiers were killed on a Soviet front. What an interesting position would our Western Allies find them selfs, if they were fighting without Soviet Union. They would be forced to deal with 5 or 6 times stronger enemy. Or "only" more then twice stronger if they were fighting half of a Hitler's Germany strenght. As for the name of that war. In Soviet Union it calls Velikya Otechestvennaya Vojna (Great Fatherlands War). Great Pathriotic War - is a western translation, thats sound good in English.And please don't make a very common mistake. It WASN'T Russia. It was Soviet Union. With all the resources & helps by all it members.--Oleg Str 07:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Russia’s Involvement in the Tallinn Disturbances

The International Centre for Defence Studies (Estonian) has published an overview:
http://www.icds.ee/index.php?id=3&sub=2&L=1
194.204.35.117 09:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if my source is reliable - one of the first found by Google - Russian IntafadaXx236 09:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This (Russian Intafada) is a strange piece of hatred, at least, if nothing more serious. 194.204.35.117 10:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right, the texts there are rather specific. Xx236 10:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It is also a veritable stash of various kooky conspiracy theories, from anti-banking to the classical Illuminati & Bilderberg stuff. I'd say that nothing the site says can be used as evidence for anything else that the site has said it. Digwuren 17:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Which site? ICDS or "truthseeker"? I had a look at both, and it seems to mee that the ICDS article is based on controlled facts (which may or may not be overinterpreted), but the "truthseeker" article seems to be a hysterical nonsense and contains several obviously wrong statements. Lebatsnok 08:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I apologise for the confusion. My comment regarding lack of credibility is about "truthseeker". ICDS' article looks reputable, though not very in-depth. But it was a rush job; let's hope a final report will be longer. Digwuren 10:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Mastaba????

Why is the limestone wall behind the sculpture compared to a mastaba? For me, this comparison doesn't make any sense whatsoever (I can see no similarity here), and it makes a completely wrong impression of the dimensions of the monument to a reader who hasn't seen it. Lebatsnok 10:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, use of that word is strongly misleading, even with '-like'. The structure had nothing to do with mastaba - a burial chamber basicly. Mastaba by definition has entrance & inner space. This structure was one solid pile of rocks, with no inner space or entrances. It was ment as a wall fragment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 14:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Mastabas do not have a inner space, only an burial chamber under it. What look like entrances are most likely false entrances. -- Petri Krohn 06:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I've replaced all occurrences of "mastaba" with "stone structure".--Pharos 18:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that occurrences of "mastaba" (not "mastaba-like") can be removed as unsourced. -- Petri Krohn 06:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the phrase "mastaba-like" (and dolostone) to the introduction. This only referes to the shape of the structure, as if saying "triangular" or "circular". The shape is sourced by the images. The mastaba-like features:

1. Inclining walls in Egyptian style
2. False entrance behind statue

- Petri Krohn 06:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this makes no sense. Have you actually seen a mastaba? Have you seen the limestone wall fragment behind the bronze soldier? Your "mastaba-like" is not understandable without a long explanation: the limestone structure behind the soldier sculpture was not at all like a mastaba. So if you insist on a verbal description, you could say it has "some mastaba-like features", and you should say which features they are. But a better idea would be to omit this poetry altogether -- everybody can look at the picture (and if not, poetry won't help much). Or if you really want an Egyptian comparison, it would be rather than mastaba! -- In addition, "dolomite" is unsourced: it's limestone in all other sources. By visual inspection, I'd say it's limestone (and the nearby National Library is dolomite). Lebatsnok 08:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen both mastabas and the bronze soldier. Comparing the shape to a pylon or a mastaba are not exclusive, both may be correct. I however find the similarity closer to a mastaba; after all, this is a burial structure. -- Petri Krohn 01:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, there are similarities, if you look at the entry portal detail on the left and right wings of the mastaba image, to my inexpert eye, it does have a resemblance to the Bronze Soldier wall. I've left a request at the Architecture Portal for a third opinion, hopefully someone with an architectural background may be able to describe the form. Martintg 23:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Alleged use of teargas.

On another important note - about the teargas - the clouds that are seen on some pictures from first night at about 21:30 and clearly in many-many videos, was NOT teargas, as wrongly claimed in multiple Russian press articles !

What was used there was pulverised fire extinguisher, not hazardous to humans. Only effect is somewhat dirty look, like it is visible in some later pictures of demonstrants. http://tamrex.struktuur.ee/441

Nor the Estonian riot-police squad or ordinary police have large scale teargas devices, they carry miniature gascanisters on belt. The only massive anti-riot device that were used was two trucks with water cannons, the one used first night broke and second night another was deployed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

New treatise by the Institute of Defence Studies

. Can somebody read through the report and integrate its findings into the article? Alas, I lack the time necessary for that kind of work. Digwuren 15:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The text http://www.icds.ee/index.php?id=3&sub=2&L=1 194.204.35.117 15:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That source was mentioned already. Alas, I doubt that Beatles Fab Four will allow adding that material to the article. DLX 16:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it was. I'm sorry for not properly checking the previous entries before writing.

As for the second part of your remark, the humour is definitely appreciated. Digwuren 17:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that document can be used easily as an English source in addition to Estonian and Russian sources in many places. DLX 03:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Daily Telegraph has an interesting opinion article today: Stand by Estonia. DLX 11:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Some comments

Okay, this article is becoming overly long, and it might well expand well after this upcoming weekend, so:

1. Split the article, create one called Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, dealing primarily with the monument and a short reference to the controversy, then another one called Bronze Soldier of Tallinn relocation controversy, dealing with the events leading up to the unrest, the move, the riots and the aftermath.
2. Remove the whole section about international response, it does not add anything of value to the article. Or, possibly it can be rewritten into a much shorter paragraph. The only responses that might be worth saving for posterity are the official Russian ones, and the official Estonian, NATO and EU ones. The rest seems just to serve the purpose of saying "Yeah, they are on our side".
3. Remove the names from the mass grave section. It is of no interest to the reader knowing the name and rank etc, just that there were Soviet soldiers there and that they were exhumed and relocated as well
4. The first "Controversy" paragraph has too many subheaders. The text can be more concentrated. Unnecessarities should be removed.

These are my five cents. --MoRsE 16:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

And yes, this is not a discussion forum! The entries here should be about the article, not your personal views on the incident! Remember that this is an encyclopedia and that this article needs to be written from a neutral point of view.--MoRsE 16:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Splitting has been agreed on previously. Though, as per consensus, we should wait with splitting until the promised retribution today (9th May). List of names is already faulty, as it has more names than there were coffins recovered. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 16:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I do think that the names of the Soviet soldiers should be preserved. The monument was, after all, built to honor them. Possibly the names should be moved to a box, like the boxes in the Columbine High School massacre article. Also, I think we should be really hesitant about making a second article for the controversy. Sometimes less is more, and the content, if written concisely, is not sufficient in my opinion for two articles.--Pharos 18:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Somehow some Estonians do not realize ot try to forget the fact that without efforts of those Soviet (Russian, Uzbek, Georgian, Ukrainin etc., yes, Estonian, too) soldiers their independent Estonia wouldn't exist AT ALL NOW. Names must be mentioned. Beatles Fab Four 18:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are off the point now, this is not an article to honor the fallen, this is an encyclopedia. And their names etc are completely irrelevant for the description of the events this past weeks. --MoRsE 18:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The names can be added after DNA-testing has confirmed the identities? As I mentioned, the list contains more names than there were burials. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the monument itself, not just the events of recent weeks. And the monument was indeed built to "honor the fallen", so the inclusion of the list is in my opinion entirely appropriate. As to the content of the list, we should just use whatever WP:RS give. If the sources don't match the number of burials exhumed recently (I haven't actually checked this), then we should of course also note the discrepancy.--Pharos 19:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Artistic criticism must be sourced

I've removed all discussion of artistic criticism, both the idea that the Bronze Soldier is socialist realist and the idea that it is not. As far as I can tell, this is an argument among Wikipedians, not art historians. If someone can find WP:RS of art criticism that deal specifically with the Bronze Soldier I will be very glad to have the information in the article, as this is of course an interesting topic. But interestingness does not trump the WP:NOR policy.--Pharos 17:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Improving the article

Now that the May 9th has almost passed and certain user unable to disrupt the regular work of Misplaced Pages for a while - could we please get back to improving the article?

1. Shall we split the article as has been repeatedly proposed? Or just rename it to Bronze Soldier Controversy? There are no other internationally known Bronze Soldiers (as far as I know) so removing of Tallinn from the name would have no negative effects.
2. Is "Other reaction" section even needed? Perhaps it could be just a collection of links with the same headline?
3. As has been proposed by MoRsE - how about keeping just relevant citations in "Political reaction" and move rest to "Other reaction"
4. Sections "Ownership" and "Proposed Law on Forbidden Structures" are not really needed or relevant, in my opinion. Same goes for sections "Myths" and "Military foothold over government; excessive secrecy" - first is just one sentence and the other is partially unrefenced and may be POV - in any case, it can be included to "Controversy" section.
5. Lead might be both shorter and clearer, but that is just my opinion.

After the status of these things have been decided - and work started on them - I think we should concentrate on finding better (and in English) sources for the article. After that, we should try to re-apply to good article status, perhaps asking for a peer review first. Last time it was very clearly too early to apply for WP:GA, not sure why it was even attempted. And, of course, if the article passes both WP:GA and WP:PR, we can also apply for featured article status - but that is a far future. DLX 19:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It is too soon. Maybe after couple of months it can be considered, but with all those edits/reverts going on at the moment, it is a pointless feat.194.204.35.117 19:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I must admit that. I was hoping that after the Beatles-fan was blocked, we could resume normal work, but apparently he is on a dynamic IP (see User_talk:Sandstein#User:Beatles Fab Four). Unless he stops his POV-pushing and edit warring, I don't see that we can avoid asking for article semi-protection again. Also, out of curiosity, does anyone understand the article by Konstantin Sonin like he does (Article: Impossible Symmetry; see for his version and mine - however, note that blogs are not acceptable sources for Misplaced Pages, so his version is not valid in any case). DLX 19:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a great article, read it when it came out. Your digest is perfect, whereas BF4's version only displays his immunity to sarcasm. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 23:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Beatle Fab Four (talk · contribs), your user account is presently blocked, and I am only refraining from blocking your IP range as well to prevent collateral damage for others. But if you continue to disrupt Misplaced Pages, I will. Stop calling for people to be blocked, and start discussing the content you would like to be changed, peacefully and civilly. Sandstein 22:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Qoute from Bonner

I believe that Bonner comment is not related directly to the The Soldier Events. Yes, it is about the history of relations Baltic states and Russia , and Soviet Unionm, but recent events in Estonia are never mentioned even in the original long article. Beatle 85.140.208.210 22:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The comment is made in context of the current controversy over the Bronze Soldier, which is also known as the Soldier-Liberator. It goes to the heart of the controversy: does the Bronze Soldier represent liberation or occupation? Martintg 22:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Full text of Bonner's statement:

Dear friends! I greet you all on Victory day! Even though I do have some difficulties with this day. I celebrate it for the 62nd time. I've done so alone, also with those close to me, with friends and the entire country.

Yet with each passing year I understand more deeply and more bitterly that victory has been stolen from both those who died, as well as those who survived the war. 364 days a year belong to the marauders. And only one day - May 9th - belongs to us. Yet this year even this has been spoiled by new rabble - sham patriots with their theatrical Offended Victor - Liberator.

Are these then the victors - the liberators?

I am not offended by the relocation of the monument and the mortal remains. A military cemetery is a considerably more honorable final resting place than a noisy and congested trolley bus stop. What offended and continues to offend me is the inscription on the monument. It should not have been (and not only in Estonia, but in any other country) ,,To a soldier - to a liberator", but rather ,,To a fallen soldier."

We have freed no one, not even ourselves, even though for four difficult war years we hoped we would. We even used to say: ,,After the war, if I'm still alive, all will change!" It didn't happen! Not in 1945, not in 1991!

Jelena Bonner, lieutenant in the Soviet army's medical division, a veteran and a war invalid (2nd group)

Martintg 03:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

When you provide proper link to her WHOLE statement (not blog), Bonner comment will be restored. Nazis Hunter 15:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Her whole statement published in the Latvian newspaper Diena: http://www.diena.lv/komentari/lasit.php?id=304497. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martintg (talk • contribs) 19:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Ok. 85.140.243.184 19:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Poll numbers?

There's this quote in the article:

The idea of relocation was controversial among inhabitants of Estonia. According to the study of the Eesti Päevaleht in March 2007 only 38% of respondents supported the relocation of the monument, while 44% were against the relocation and 18% had not formed opinion on the subject. Relocation of the monument had slightly stronger support from the native Estonian speakers (47% of Estonians in favour of the relocation), while only 10% of the native Russian speakers supported the relocation

Unfortunately, the numbers do not match those given in the article. First, the article is from April 25, not March 12. Second, it reports 37% for (not 38%), 49% against (not 44%) and 14% without opinion (not 18%).

Obviously, the summary has gotten mixed up with a wrong source. Anybody who's more familiar with the history of this passage want to fix it? Digwuren 06:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

For some who try to forget and rewrite the history

In May 2005, Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip gave a speech while visiting Klooga in which he both condemned the Holocaust and accepted that Estonian citizens were complicit in committing war crimes during WWII: Although these murderers must answer for their crimes as individuals, the Estonian Government continues to do everything possible to expose these crimes. I apologise for the fact that Estonian citizens could be found among those who participated in the murdering of people or assisted in the perpetration of these crimes.

To be continued with maaaaany sources (if you wish) 85.140.243.184 19:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

That was news to you? http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/index.htm should give you wet dreams, then (there's even a russian version of that report). No-one's denied that some estonians collaborated with nazis more than necessary. Thing is, estonians _know_ and _accept_ their history, hence your attempts to hurt us on that basis are laughable. I'd recommend same to your country as well. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 20:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

One word for Estonians. Be careful when you choose words. Unbelivable. Is this man sane? Unlikely. Try not to always blame Russians, try to look at yourself. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.243.184 20:56, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW You all know his name. This is DLX. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.243.184 21:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

How can the Estonian Legion be involved in killing Jews, the Legion wasn't formed until 1942, after Estonia's Jews were killed in 1941. You can read the Russian version here: http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/pdf/conclusions_ru.pdf Martintg 23:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Martintg, I'm trying to be polite, though I'm angered that you can't read even the Esnonian version of the report. "The Germans deported to Estonia an unknown number of Jews from other countries, including Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Germany and Poland." They were killed also by Estonian SS legioners. Irrespective of that, Estonian Jews were killed also by future Estonian SS legioners. That were the same people, or bastards I'd say. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.211.220 00:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

But this is not your fault, Martintg, that you are brainwashed by somebody, I believe. MAKE LOVE NOT WAR 85.140.211.220 00:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

All russians are cannibals. A claim no less valid than your verbal diarrhoea, insisting on generalizations about a whole nation based on actions of a few. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 01:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I personally and we Russians do not blame or condemn Estonians as a nation. I'm an internationalist. Only few are stupid, like that guy who claimed that 0 Jews were killed by collaborators. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.211.220 01:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW I think Jaak Joala is a great singer. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.211.220 01:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

yeah, usage of these expressions "should give you wet dreams", "your verbal diarrhoea" tells something about the editor too PEOPLE MAKE LOVE NOT WAR 85.140.211.220 03:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

....and this has to do what with the article? --MoRsE 04:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

this just reveals the level of some editors, alas Beatle Fab Four 04:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

To reiterate:
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please read the notice at the top of this talk page carefully.
Esn 04:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This will be my last comment about this matter. Mainspace talk pages are not for this, if that one particular, alas, historically illiterate user, wishes to discuss this further - please use my talk page.

You asked how many were killed by Estonian SS (that is Waffen-SS legion, as there were no Estonians in SS-proper). And the answer is still the same - none, that we know of. Some Jews were probably killed by collaborators, same way that happened everywhere - including Russia - and no one has denied this. And prime minister apologized for actions of a few collaborators - to be honest, I don't know if any other country has done that. Would be nice, if Russia would apologize for horrible actions during Soviet times, as it considers itself the successor of Soviet Union - for example, creating hunger in Ukraine, deporting and killing millions of people (including Russians) in prison camps, occupying independent countries, forced Russification and collectivization. But I think it is too much to hope for something like that, as they would have to admit that darkest period in history of Russia and stop glorifying Soviet Union - which is the opposite to trends of current Russian government. DLX 05:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, again, he expressed everything abiut himself. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.211.220 07:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

And I ask you people of all nations to think very seriously about the words of this DLX "You asked how many were killed by Estonian SS (that is Waffen-SS legion, as there were no Estonians in SS-proper). And the answer is still the same - none". You decide who is he after that. MAKE LOVE NOT WAR Beatle Fab Four 21:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone who knows history, unlike you? DLX 08:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Aili Jõgi

She was arrested and sent to a prison camp in Siberia after having blown up the Bronze Solder's "predecessor" in 1946 - a tempory monument of wood topped with a star. Being sent to Siberia at 14, she was released from the camp in 1970! After the occupation, she received a prestigious award from the Estonian President. Interviewed in the Swedish Daily Dagens Nyheter. In the interview she also points out that the Soviet Union "liberated" Estonia from its legitimate government and replaced the Estonian flag at the Tallinn castle with the USSR flag. Hon sprängde bronsstatyns föregångare. Camptown 22:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Not Siberia but Komi republic, released from exile in 1954. Decided to stay in Komi with Estonian husband until 1970. -- Petri Krohn 08:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Siberia is used in the metaphoric sense here, with the meaning of 'vast unsettled areas of land with harsh climate, used for forced relocation of the unwanted by Russian authorities'. This metaphor has been strongly present in Estonian and Russian culture since the 18th century, and the area of the Komis belongs to this region in this sense. In fact, a large number of Gulag settlements were in the Komi-Zyrya ASSR. And that Komi, Siberia is not usually considered Siberia for geographic purposes is irrelevant. However, that you would claim impropriety over metaphoric use of a geographic name (compare Capitol) is petty and improper. Digwuren 21:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I was about to suggest that you add this definiton to Siberia (disambiguation); now I see, that I already did it in July 2006. Too bad someone has deleted the definition. -- Petri Krohn 17:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This definition claimed the phrase of 'sending to Siberia' as exclusive to Soviet Union. This was not the case; this kind of punishment was also widely used in the Czarist Russia, most importantly, late 19th century.

Interestingly, in Czarist Russia, projects to settle Siberia were repeatedly undertaken, usually by offering free land and sometimes monetary compensation to anybody who would settle. This caused several settlements of ethnic Estonians to pop up in Siberia (in the wider sense), the most famous perhaps being the one near Zoetuk. Currently, the Republic of Estonia considers it a matter of aiding its citizens overseas to provide school-level teachers of the Estonian language in a few of these settlements, even though most of their citizens are not citizens of Estonia in the legal sense, their ancestors having emigrated half a century before the first declaration of the Republic. Digwuren 19:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I have reinstated the metaphoric use in Siberia (disambiguation), tracked down the reason of its previous removal, rephrased so as to avoid future removal, and fixed the problem I mentioned earlier. Digwuren 19:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I guess the phrase "Soviet occupation of Estonia" is also a similar metaphor. -- Petri Krohn 17:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

No, there's nothing metaphoric about that one. Digwuren 19:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

'Decided', indeed. She was spared the usual 25+5 treatment due to her being obviously underaged, but somehow didn't 'decide' to return home until the 25 years were done. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 09:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To clarify: you're good at massaging the words, implying she had a choice. It's quite different - her exile explicitly forbade her return to Estonia, so naturally she chose to stay where she had started to build a new life. Estonian sources give her time of return from exile as May 1971, not '1970'. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 09:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The source says her exile only lasted until 1954. What you are claming is not supported by the sources, any more than this "Siberia" bullshit. -- Petri Krohn 10:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, my bad. It was just Tallinn she couldn't reside in. Still, she didn't choose to stay in Komi, but to stay with her husband. A subtle difference. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 21:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've read that she would legaly have to divorce her convicted husband in order to return to Estonia. Does that make sense? Camptown 08:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Can't find anything about that, though little made sense back then. Got a link? Edgar Vares-Barbarus 09:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Blast, I broke the link... possible to rename the article about her? Edgar Vares-Barbarus 23:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, article moved to Aili Jõgi. Camptown 07:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like Ageeda Paavel should be better investigated as well, apparently she headed the 'Eesti Isesesvuse Liit' (Estonia's Independence Union', one of pro-estonian underground student groups) Aili belonged to. A judge described her as 'worse than Churchill' for her well-argued defense on trial. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 21:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, do! Officially, though, she seems to be named Ageeta-Andrea Paavel. Right? Camptown 21:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I googled all permutations of her name. The longer version shows up very rarely, she's Ageeta-Andrea Paavel on president's decorations list and Andrea-Ageeda Paavel on Ex-Student-Freedomfighters Union page (just once, elsewhere on the pages the shorter name is used), whereas Ageeda Paavel is how she signed her public letter to Tallinn City government re: Bronze soldier on 10/05/06. I'd claim the short version is what she herself uses. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 09:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Ageeda Paavel

Decorated Estonian "Freedom fighter of military merit". What more is known about her? Camptown 08:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

balts DIDNT MURDER JEWS? They did, more then anybody else! to dlx and all his friends

ITS A KNOWN FACT, it's like asking: Find me a link in the internet that fire burns if you touch it, but if you want, please: http://www.jewishgen.org/latvia/SIG_Newsletter/0703_SIG_April_2003.pdf

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/lithuania1/lithuania1.html and the quotes: Unlike other Nazi-occupied countries, where most Jewish citizens were put to death in gas chambers, a large majority of Jews in the Baltic countries were slaughtered brutally with firearms and other weapons by their Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian neighbors (sometimes under German supervision).

Children in the Kovno ghetto, whose friends had been murdered by Lithuanians, wrote in Lithuanian a bitter parody of the national anthem "Lithuania, Our Homeland":

Lithuania, Our Blood-Land May you be accursed for centuries Let your blood flow Like the blood of Jewish children". (and so on)

Another document: http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2005/baltics.htm

Just type Baltic states jews murder in google and you will get more, this are only the forst two.

and there are many more like this! M.V.E.i. 17:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Eestlased teisaldaks pronkssõduri, venelased mitte Postimees 12 March 2007

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