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My edits

I've been bold and adjusted a few things.

  • We should allow the use of Macedonia in second references to the Republic, when no sane reader could interpret it as meaning any other Macedonia. We should not impose clutter on ourselves.
  • WP:NCGN says that when Misplaced Pages has established a name for something, we should use it in other articles. I really don't care for having modern Greece be an island in its own reality; when we represent the views of the Greek government, or Greeks who agree with it, we should use their term. But Misplaced Pages's voice shouldn't change between Greece and Vardar River.
    • I recognize that in fact it probably will; but we shouldn't give a guideline that supports PoV pushing.
  • My only authority for the offensiveness in both directions is Macedonia (terminology); but considering what it's been through, it's probably right. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the first point about second references. To be absolutely honest, the reason I made Greece "an island in its own reality" was purely pragmatic. Articles about modern Greece are most likely to be edited by Greek nationalists and enforcing the use of "Republic of Macedonia" across all such articles is likely to ignite a prolonged edit war with Greek editors. Using "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" would be a reasonable compromise, as it's a legitimate name (not purely a POV one), it's what Greeks themselves use officially, and its meaning is clear enough. We should, however, oppose the use of POV metonyms like "Republic of Skopje" and we should also not permit the usage of the unexpanded acronym "FYROM" as a POV means of avoiding the use of the term "Macedonia".
BTW, note that I specifically confined this to modern Greece (a distinction which needs to be made in the guideline). The naming dispute is completely irrelevant to articles which touch on ancient Greece. In such instances, we should use the default term, i.e. "Republic of Macedonia", just as we would in any other article not covered by the exceptions listed in the proposed guidelines. -- ChrisO 09:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Re Greece, the Gdansk/Danzig precedent also comes to mind. Re ancient Greece, I'm not sure where we could find an applicable example. NikoSilver 14:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, the FYROM spelout is neither the Greek POV. It is supposed to be a compromise. Regardless, I admit that it has become almost obsolete in the USA (to the point of being misinterpreted as the Greek POV), but we should not disregard the other English speaking countries. UK, Canada and Australia all use "FYROM" officially. I cannot say what goes on unofficially, though... NikoSilver 14:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The BBC uses Macedonia routinely. The only stories using FYROM since 2001 are a handful, specifically discussing the naming issue. Someone else can search the Sydney Morning Herald. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
See for yourself: NikoSilver 20:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
As opposed to one hit (from their blog) for FYROM. Thanks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually they are following the same convention that is proposed here. NikoSilver 23:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes; reports for the Athens Olympics reflect the usage (and POV) of the organizers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Please Sept, try to see this the way it is, and not as if we're after hot-headed nationalists at the expense of portraying reality correctly. BBC uses the fyrom spellout very frequently (even on the recent article on Beckam for his car). Actually it uses it on every article on top, and then it goes on to say simply "Macedonia" (for brevity and because it has established non-ambiguity). Check my search below. NikoSilver 19:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In all of these pages I have checked, the BBC uses Macedonia first and f/Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia later; furthermore they are only a quarter of the pages on which the BBC uses Macedonia. Please be more careful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Ooops! NikoSilver 09:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice Gotcha; but I said, and meant, "article". Discussed further below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Basic question

The basic question here is what to do about issues where nationalist editors can be expected to be obnoxious. My approach is to fight where it seems likely to be productive, and concede as little as possible; see Talk:Shatt al-Arab (Arvand Rud), for example. Writing a guideline which authorizes misbehavior, instead of one that can be quoted by editors who want to fix it, strikes me as counterproductive. (repost; this seems to have been mislaid, but I would like comments.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it. Are you proposing we rename the country article to Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)? NikoSilver 23:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Certainly not; I am proposing that we say that we should use "republic of Macedonia" everywhere - except when quoting someone who isn't, of course. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Which part exactly would you argue that "authorizes misbehavior"? Do the int'l org article series fall in that category in your opinion? NikoSilver 12:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This is still the "in articles about Modern Greece"; if no-one disagrees with the tweak I gave that, fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree for sentimental reasons, for practical reasons, due to precedent, and because the use at least in Greek-related articles is not POV.
    • FYROM is not its spell-out, and the Beeb uses the spell-out only sometimes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
      • No, by "fyrom spellout" I meant "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", but I refrained from typing the whole thing for brevity. I corrected it above. The Beeb calls the country "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in its country information page. That is very significant. NikoSilver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
        • And their stated reason for doing so is that "It is still referred to formally as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)". Formal usage may govern the BBC's country information page; but we are discussing informal usage, which governs our articles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
So, Sept, first we disagree on the criteria for judgment, second we disagree in the assessment for that criteria, and finally we disagree on the implementation in this convention. I will remove the "Gr gov views" part (which is POV btw, because Greece is far from alone in this) and replace it with "Greek related". NikoSilver 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I will see what other language I can think of; but I will strongly oppose this proposal if it contains the "Greek related" language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Responses below. NikoSilver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I now see that there may be a misunderstanding due to the wording, while we are actually saying the same thing. I took your quote "in representing the views of the Greek government" literally, and thought that you mean to say that we will use the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" only in articles regarding Greek foreign relations etc. From your wording in the first bullet, I see that you are not actually endorsing using plain M or RoM in e.g. the Greek province article (or Greece by extension?). If that is the case, please tell me where you draw the line of use of RoM vs fYRoM (not acronyms) and then we see how we tweak the wording to reflect that. NikoSilver 10:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I would draw the distinction between mentions in Misplaced Pages's voice, which should follow general usage, and mentions which represent someone else's voice and PoV. For example, the Province does border the Republic; this is a statement of fact, not an assertion of territorial claims in either direction. I see no harm, and some use, in adding the equally true assertion that the Province calls the Republic FYROM. In the infobox (infoboxes tend to be more formal than the rest of WP) it may be reasonable to include "former Yugoslav", although citizens of the Republic may object. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

There are no bordering entities in infoboxes, but please elaborate. In which article and under which context what and where exactly? What about -say- Pella Prefecture? What would you do there? Would you add something like:

  1. "the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders Macedonia to the north"
  2. "the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the north"
  3. "the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the north"
  4. "the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders what the Greek government calls the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the north"
  5. "the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders what the United Nations, the EU, the Greek government, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Australia, Canada, the UK, FIFA, FIBA, BBC... calls the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the north"

Which would be the one you would use there? NikoSilver 20:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably move it out into a separate sentence, since it is a national boundary: "On the north, it is bounded by the national border between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia"; which is unambiguous. I note that the province is not now mentioned in text. It should say, equally unambiguously, "in the Greek periphery of Central Macedonia." I am in no hurry to perform these edits; if they become the thing most worth doing on WP, the Peaceable Kingdom will have come. But we should provide guidance here, if anyone inquires, that they ought to be done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
So you would say for example:
First you use a sub-periphery (peripheria), and you exclude the province (diamerisma) so as to disambiguate the Greek Macedonia (which is a region, with a ministry, a capital etc). Second, even if you do that, you are confusing everybody in the following sentence. How far can this go? What more is there to be done to accommodate a name that doesn't belong in that context and that is ambiguous? NikoSilver 22:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
No, I would use different paragraphs; the boundary and the nest higher administrative division are different subjects. As for periphery, I am only following our articles, which say the Regions of Greece are out-of-date since 1987; if that's wrong, go correct that article. Far more important than this guideline anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Pella (Greek: Πέλλα) is one of the prefectures of Greece. Its capital town is Edessa. The prefecture was named after the ancient city Pella. The prefecture is in the Greek periphery periphery (an administrative area), Central Macedonia, in the region of Macedonia.
...
Pella is bounded by the prefectures of Kilkis to the northeast, Thessaloniki to the east, Imathia to the south, Kozani to the southwest, by Lake Vegoritida to the southwest, and by Florina Prefecture to the west. On the north, it is bounded by the national border between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia."

The present text implies, I see, that Brod and Gevgelija are Greek districts, which would seem to be in factual error. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I might put Greek region as the link text; not for disambiguation, but to suggest a technical meaning on which readers should link. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
May I ask what is he rationale behind using a modifier for the Greek Macedonia/n/s in their own turf and not using one (which is quite frequent and official within their borders anyway) for their otherwise irrelevant neighbors? Can you imagine another longer article full of "Greek Macedonia/n/s" so that we make one reference to the country by a disputed name? NikoSilver 22:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
"Republic of" is a modifier. I used "Greek periphery" because most English speakers know "periphery" as the length around a circle; I don't insist on it. I would not use "Greek Macedonians" unless the Macedonia intended was unclear. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is (technically) a modifier, but in the context of prefectures, it almost sounds as a subnational entity within Greece. It is also not a modifier practically (in the real world -but that is irrelevant). Although I admire your effort in this attempt, I still think it is confusing (and fucking cruel -but I'll drown that fact in Cardhu). Also, tell me, is it worth the effort? Both in compiling the text and in keeping the version on air? NikoSilver 00:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, and it also reflects indeed the case in English scholarship, except of course when serious disambiguation considerations exist. I've got a compromise proposal. But before that, I would like you to elaborate on your comment for Gdansk/Danzig above. Apart from the time periods, the link I gave you also clearly states: "In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdańsk) and later Danzig exclusively ... In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the name should be used in the form Gdańsk (Danzig) and later Gdańsk exclusively." This looks like a direct parallel -i.e. each call it as they themselves do. I also made some valid points in response to your comment on my talkpage. NikoSilver 09:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I had not seen the part of the Gdanzig compromise about clearly German people. I don't think that made into the naming conventions; and I'm sure it shouldn't - i.e.: that's good for the Gdanzig disaster only. How about having Greeks use Macedonia for the province and Republic of M. for the Republic, and the converse for Slavs, unless some special reason can be shown? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, there's always a reason with you! On Gdansk/Danzig it was only dates. Then it is not a naming convention (which didn't exist then LOL). NikoSilver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Also you don't answer to my other point from my talkpage: The same way EU or the UN cannot be quoted to include a Rep.of.M. in their member states (IMO), the same must be extended within that little island of its own reality called Greece. NikoSilver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, your last version is tempting (and promising about "those that agree with Greece"), but it is not an actual guideline since it relies on what the English references are on the subject. It will only lead to endless debates for all articles within Greek territory (et al) mentioning it, and I find this more counter-productive than actually helpful. I exchange "those that agree with Greece" for Greece/Greek proper, and also accept keeping your comment about saying it the first time and from then on RoM (yes, I know there are only very few instances where it may be mentioned twice and thank you). What do you say? NikoSilver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Lastly, I am removing all POV tags, and expect none entered again for a proposal. This doesn't need any tags until we agree and it becomes promoted to more than a mere proposal. (I also think combative-editing tactics should not be needed between us, since it is evident from my part -at least- that this case is not closed until we agree, and since I am evidently not planning to enforce it by edit warring). Please remember that "Greece-related" was initially included not by a Greek editor. NikoSilver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Forgot: your proposal above is not contested by me, and I wouldn't care if it happened unilaterally for RoM-related articles. However, I find it may lead to more confusion in the articles, and I propose we strike it for both. NikoSilver 21:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Just spotted your partial response up there. I am not saying (of course) to denounce WP:UE. I am saying that it is difficult to assess the English usage consensus for either name. (Take a pill if necessary and) try to read my early tendentious subpage. It definitely needs updating and tweaking, but it is a serious search on the usage of the terms. NikoSilver 13:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Outstanding issues

This talk page has got rather long and difficult to follow: for the sake of clarity, could people please list below what issues are still outstanding? -- ChrisO 06:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll attempt to archive what I consider closed. In any case please visit the archive. NikoSilver 10:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

A case in point

An issue of exactly the kind that this MoS needs to resolve has cropped up in Template:European Union Labelled Map. Sysin, a user with a long history of Greek ultranationalist POV-pushing, is repeatedly deleting the spelled-out name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" from the map, leaving only the unexplained acronym FYROM. This MoS already mandates that the FYROM acronym shouldn't be used by itself on images and the general MoS likewise requires acronyms to be spelled out the first time they're used. Unfortunately Sysin, as I know from experience, is not the kind of editor who's easily persuadable. Perhaps Niko could have a word with him? -- ChrisO 06:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed the ANI incident you filed (Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Macedonia-related_disruption). He seems to have a non-ultranationalist related case there (acronyms/abbreviations exist for many countries in that map due to size limitations). I'm sure this can be sorted out without resort to a trail of ad hominem characterizations (to which I emphatically disagree in general) which can be seen in Talk:Macedonia#A_new_approach, in the ANI thread, and now here. Anyway, what exactly do you want me to say? NikoSilver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I also notice that this is a proposal, and that there are bound to be many disagreements from all sides, especially given how contentious this issue is. Those disagreements should be taken into account and molded into a consensus if we want to succeed. NikoSilver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Almost irrelevant: In my experience, very few editors have ever been persuaded and changed their mind from their original position in any dispute I've been involved (and I almost chase these). In my opinion those editors deserve our greatest respect for their self-defiance in doing that. I was thinking of making an essay titled WP:ADMIT the other day (and I probably will). NikoSilver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Languages

The issue was discussed partly in /Archive 1#Expand and must be elaborated. I archived anyway. NikoSilver 10:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

My edits

This MoS will help towards peace and understanding between the two groups. I have no objection to the republic's internal name being used in the proper context - but it is reasonable to object when certain people inject it inappropriately as a means of making irredentist claims on articles about Greece, or when people try to use the anything-goes rules of wikipedia to white-out the nomenclature chosen by the United Nations, the European Union and other international organizations. Most of my edits are common sense (do not edit original texts, acronyms are sometimes nuavoidable, etc.).

My proposed term for the language prior to 1941 may be a bit more controversial - I am open to any reasonable suggestion that is not anachronistic. Regards, sys < in 12:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me reply in detail.

  • where the distinction with the Greek territory of Macedonia must be made clear to the reader who is unfamiliar with the area,
    • Either this is another "distinguish as necessary", to which I shall rephrase it; or it is "we must make clear the distinction between the Republic and the Province at all times and places", which is nationalist POV-pushing. Since it will be read as the latter no matter how intended, unacceptable.
    • On second thought, no. "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is never required for disambiguation; the Republic is clearly distinct from the Province. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
      • The problem is that the word Republic has also been used for sub-national entities (Yugoslavia is a handy example!). A casual reader, reading an article about Greek and Greek Macedonia can reasonably misinterpret "Republic of Macedonia" as the name of the Greek region, or as an entity that includes Greek Macedonia. To avoid repeating constructs like "Republic of Macedonia (which is not the region of Greek Macedonia but a separate country)", a reasonable alternative employed by most major supernational institutions is the term "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Again, I am only proposing this for articles that focus on subjects where a context switch is needed (and I am not proposing this on articles that simply mention such subjects) sys < in
  • Where source documents <:ref>e.g. treaties, books, tourist guides, statistical tables<:/ref> use one or the other form of the name, the text of the source document must be left as it is, and references to the document should use the form in the document itself.
    • Uncontroversial. But why put it here? Quotations should be exact is a general principle; and I so placed it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Unfortunately, this issue pops up from time to time, one would hope that it would not. For example, the EU document named The Commission Opinion on the application from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union has had its title 'adjusted' a number of times in the European Union entry. I hope you agree that this is an unacceptable alteration of source material. sys < in
    I have the feeling that Sysin's proposal referred to both quotations and normal text (Misplaced Pages's voice). - Ev 01:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
  • and in articles on facets of the above organizations such as European Union regulations and the Euro currency
    • Rather sweeping. We can all agree, I trust, that we don't want every article that quotes prices in euros to be treated as an aspect of the EU; on the other hand, the EU clause applies to more than the article European Union. Both these are implicit in the original wording. I think it better to keep our thumbs off both sides of this scale. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, and you can clarify it by adding something to that effect. But 'articles about facets' (as opposed to articles mentioning facets) should be included. Eurovision voting results is a good example - the annual edit war on the topic was last week. If the official Eurovision result lists "FYR Macedonia", so should the articles about the results. If you want to clarify that articles that simply mention the Euro or Eurovision should be excluded, go ahead and I will not disagree.sys < in
  • Macedonian Slavs or Slav Macedonians in articles where there is need for disambiguation (mainly those also addressing the Greek Macedonians and/or Ancient Macedonians).
  • The term citizens of the Republic of Macedonia or citizens of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (as per country conventions, above) should be used for those citizens of the country who are not Slav Macedonians.
    • Implies that "citizen of the Republic" should not be used of citizens who are not Slavic. I suspect this can be saved by recasting.
      • I don't see how one could possibly read it this way, but feel free to recast it as you wish.sys < in
  • The forms used in official source documents should be preserved when quoting or referencing such documents
  • The language used by Slavs in the Macedonian region prior to August 1944<:ref>See History_of_the_Macedonian_language</ref> should be described as Bulgarian, Bulgarian Macedonian dialect, or the Macedonian dialect of the Bulgarian language as appropriate. For written texts, the distinction should be made based on whether or not the Bulgarian alphabet was used in the original text.
    • Guidelines should not attempt to decide questions of fact. In dealing with changes of usage, Misplaced Pages follows present English usage in writing about the period in question. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Fine, I do agree this was a half-baked idea on my part, and I already mentioned in my previous comments that it needs a fine tuning. An non-anachronistic term is often needed. Your proposal is essentially OK, although hard to arbitrate. sys < in
  • for example, a map of the countries of the European Union should display "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", whereas a general map of Europe should display "Republic of Macedonia"
    • The same map can be both. This is silly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Evey map is a map of something. Europe != European Union (its not even a subset, as there are regions in the EU outside Europe). In 99.99% of all cases, one can tell if a map is of the European Union by looking at its content and its label. It would be counter-intuitive to use the 6WN in an article, and the 3WN in an accompanying map, and a constant source of bickering. The purpose of this MoS is to agree on basic principles so that edit wars are not needed. Treating images differently from articles just creates a gaping holes in any agreement, and agreements full of holes are usually unsuccessful.sys < in
      • As for the abbreviation/acronym issue, I am still amazed that anyone can make politics out of that (and, quite frankly, I am very suspicious of the intentions of people who do). There is no way the words "Republic of Macedonia" can be made to fit in the Template:World Labelled Map, for example. Not in any legible font that I know of. Even the 6-letter word "Greece" is abbreviated on the map, and rightly so. The MoS, as written right now, would be practically impossible to comply with, and what is not practical is rarely successful. My proposal was totally balanced: The acronym should be used only when the full name cannot fit in the map, and Greek Macedonia should also be abbreviated when needed. What's the political argument against that? sys < in 13:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Eurovision FYROM

Over 40 countries voted in the Eurovision song context. Only one, Montenegro, used the term 'Macedonia'. All the others used 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. As for the FY/ROM, it was one of the few countries to refer to its name 'Macedonia' as opposed to its capital, and the only one to do so 3 times. It seemed obvious that the young lady had been coached to do so. Otherwise, well done Fyrom, nice song but Ukraine or Bulgaria should have won. Politis 13:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)