Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pornography

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On 12 February 2007, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Pornography was linked from Fleshbot, a high-traffic website. (Traffic)

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Links

I am thinking that the AFDB link is redundant, and commerical. The IAFD is pretty comprehensive, and has less advertising. Your thoughts? Oldcritter 4:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I've personally felt this way as well... It does seem far more commerical than the IAFD and IMDB. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 15:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

"Commercial" doesn't bug me. I've found several times that the site with the most information on an erotic performer was the Excalibur Films / Adult Porn Star Mall site, which is even more commercial than the AFDB. (Most recent case in point: Taija Rae - Excalibur Films site - compare to much skimpier LukeIsBack, IAFD, or AFDB sites) Low on information bugs me, but the actual commercialism of the AFDB is relevant; it is showing a lot of video cover images that the performer appeared in. I would argue that is actually useful. AnonEMouse 12:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

You have a good point there - it does have it's value, and all the databases have sales links to one degree or another. I guess for me it is a question of what the primary purpose of the DB and how it relates to the WP policy. Unless there is a consensus to drop the link, then I am OK with leaving it be. Oldcritter 21:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Since when wasn't IMDB commercial? You do realize it's owned by Amazon.com right? I count 1 top banner, 2 side banners and 3 sponsored links at the bottom when looking at their page for Taija Rae. Not to mention IMDBpro and A9 web search. Heck, if I'm not mistaken they charge actors money to submit a photo of themselves. --Pinworm 19:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, what does it matter if there is information for the article? Brjatlick 03:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Mixed race exotic porn stars

There are many porn stars considered exotic because of mixed race features, usually Asian and American or Asian and European. Tera Patrick is the best current example I think, and there has been dispute over whether Kascha Papillon is one as well. Also, Nautica Thorn and Kristara Barrington (most of whom we conventionally label as Asian). There should be a category for "Mixed-race exotic porn stars" or at least for "mixed-race" porn stars. Do you think so? Brjatlick 04:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Acceptable sources of fair use photos

Acordding to the guidelines on this page, it is acceptable to claim fair use for DVD covers images illustrating the article on the person depicted on the cover. Is that really inline with Misplaced Pages Fair Use policy? According to my interpretation of WP:FAIR#Images, such images should only be used when critical comentary on the work (the movie, not the performer) is being made. Probably, the rationally is the same used in fair use counterexample #7. --Abu Badali 21:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Since it isn't inline with WP:FAIR, I'll remove the guideline on covers. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 00:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:FAIR is a guideline, not policy. I think that the use of low resolution cover art is fair use, as it does not devalue the intellectual property of the maker; indeed quite the opposite - it could be advantageous to them to have the cover displayed here. Has there been an instance where an adult studio has objected to the inclusion here of their cover art?Oldcritter 05:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

If we decide that this use is acceptable, we should not go against the broader guidelines. We could, instead, explain or arguments there and chage the guideline as a whole. I don't think it would be good to make porn movies a special case. --Abu Badali 05:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to concur with this. While WP:FAIR is a guideline, do note that fair use is part of United States copyright law, which superscedes any Misplaced Pages rule or guideline when it comes to these things. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 16:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I read the guidlines, and the discussion behind them, and compared them to the article fair use. I believe Misplaced Pages is being overly conservative with regards to media covers. The use of a movie cover to illustrate an article on a performer violates none of the four critical principles defining fair use. I suppose we could try and persuade the rest of the community, but that is going to take a lot of effort from the (pages of) discussions I read. My thought is that, until it becomes policy, we don't include covers on the acceptable use list, but on the other hand, lets not go plunging through every image or article deleting them until it is settled. Maybe we can come up with a weasly way of using the covers - perhaps including limited critical commentary on that particular movie (and how much would be enough?) to justify the image. I am not real proud of that, but for a lot of performers, it will be that or no useable photo at all. Your thoughts? Oldcritter 00:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Key articles for Misplaced Pages 1.0

Hello! We at the Work via WikiProjects team for Misplaced Pages 1.0 would like you to identify the "key articles" from your project that should be included in offline releases of Misplaced Pages based on their importance, regardless of quality. Although this project covers a topic too specialized for a general release, we may want to consider including these articles in later releases. Hopefully it will also help you identify which articles are the most important for the project to work on. As well, please add to your Arts WikiProject article table any articles of high quality. If you are interested in developing a worklist such as this one for your WikiProject, or having a bot generate a worklist automatically for you, please contact us. Please feel free to post your suggestions right here. Thanks! Walkerma 05:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There's an interesting task for this project. I'll start a subheading, since I will probably want to re-edit my list, and also imagine several people will have their own list of "most important porn stars".

Anon E Mouse's list

OK, let me start with the ones that I think will be hard to dispute:

Traci Lords - moderately important star in her own right, but her underage scandal made her a legend
Jenna Jameson - most popular currently active star
John Holmes - the iconic male star, death from AIDS also says something about the effect of that disease on the industry
Linda Lovelace - star of the single most famous porn movie, became noted anti-porn activist

"Second rank" (also important, but possibly disputable as most important)

Ron Jeremy - male star, always second to Holmes during career, but now widely appearing on media outside the industry
Danni Ashe - the first mainly-Internet star
Marilyn Chambers, Bambi Woods, Seka - possibly iconic classic female performers
Deep Throat, Debbie Does Dallas, The Devil in Miss Jones - movies, rather than stars, so arguably outside the scope of this project
Hugh Hefner, Bob Guccione, Larry Flynt - pornographers, rather than porn stars, so arguably outside the scope of this project

AnonEMouse 13:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

- Pornographers make porn stars my friend, they should definitely be in the project... maybe some famous directors too (Paul Thomas (porn director) doesn't even have an article?), also MUST have Behind the Green Door! Brjatlick 00:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

A very good list. Also, let's not forget the Mitchell brothers and Suze Randall. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 00:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, since people like my list, here are a few more "second rank"s:

Gloria Leonard - never #1, but often a noted #2: as a performer, in The Opening of Misty Beethoven, then, as a publisher, with High Society; the combination is especially notable. She also held several high ranking porn organization offices.
The Stewardesses - not very notable as porn (no performers did anything else), but the highest grossing 3D movie of all time; not just highest grossing 3D porn movie, highest grossing 3D movie. This is a "self nom" of sorts, as I wrote most of the article, so I'm probably biased.

AnonEMouse 15:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That's excellent, thank you very much! Since there is (as far as I know) no WikiProject for pornographers, this is the right place to list Hefner et al. I'll add all these to your listing, and feel free to add assessments or articles to this list, or to update it. Cheers, Walkerma 06:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Assistance requested in starting a page

I would like to start a page on Katrina Ko. I have access to some references that may be hard to get. If someone starts a stub, I can add info. I am not certain how to start a brand new page. I don't know how to add the usual box on the right or the stuff at the bottom of the page.

If you want to help but don't know anything about Katrina Ko, just start a stub with the following information. "Katrina Ko is a female actress credited for doing pornographic movies. She is Canadian of Asian decent. She is credited for the movie: Lingerie". I'll take over from there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.43.102 (talk) 04:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

Unfortunately "references that may be hard to get" are not a good way to write an article. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be verifiable, meaning that readers should be able to check that an article is correct. You need references that have been published by reliable sources. -- AnonEMouse 14:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Partial Filmography

I would like to propose that no more than a partial filmography be provided for any performer - just to throw a number on it, say 6 of their most notable performances. No need to duplicate IAFD and other databases, and I think it will improve the look of the articles. Your thoughts? Oldcritter 06:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I would agree to this only if the works are somehow notable to the career of the performer. For instance, if the film the performer was in won an award or if it is somehow noteworthy pornography covered by a source, like AVN or adultfyi.com. A partial filmography, if applicable, should include:

Performer's first movie.
Movies that the performer has been in that have garnered awards.
Movies that the performer has been in that have been newsworthy.
Performer's last movie (of their career, not their latest film).

Any additional thoughts? -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 14:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a good start. For porn movies, you could have a criteria that a particular movie features the performer the most (as in length of time on screen) or perhaps a turning point in their career (weight change, breast enhancement, whatever). My main goal here is to avoid a laundy list of every film they ever appeared by agreeing to no more than "X" number of films as part of a standard Porn Bio template.Oldcritter 16:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That'd work for me. I've been pulling out the various filmographies as I've been coming across them as they tend to be little more than listcruff. The only item on Joe's list I can see as being problematic would be the third one: "newsworthy". Can we define this as being films that have garnered mainstream press attention? Tabercil 16:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Huh? why so limiting? I look at Sylvester Stallone or Arnold Schwarzennegger and see every movie they ever breathed on, no different from IMDB. Not that every compilation that cops a scene should be included in a porn star bio, but if she's done 100 films there should be at least a dozen or more worth noting! Brjatlick 01:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Sylvester Stallone or Arnold Schwarzennegger may be wrong. Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. --Abu Badali 03:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Abu Badali on this one. I don't think it's important to list every single film a mainstream actor or actress is in. I believe a partial filmography should contain career or critical highlights. For instance, in Arnold's case, Terminator and Total Recall come immediately to mind. Also, it should be noted that many of Misplaced Pages's articles aren't really high standard articles and may violate existing Misplaced Pages policies, such as those listed in WP:NOT. One of the obvious reasons why those two articles have such long filmographies is because no one has challenged their existance as of yet. (Also, the fact remains that there are many non notable mainstream actors that proliferate Misplaced Pages as well, and their existance is viewed upon as a means to justify the existance of articles on non-notable pornographic actors as well, more often than not.)-- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 04:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

(Additional newer comments that were here have been moved to the Partial filmographies redux section.)

I'd add another to Joe's excellent numbered list:

5. Movies that themselves have individual entries in the Misplaced Pages.

That's somewhat similar to #3, "newsworthy", since, hopefully, we don't have non-newsworthy movies with individual entries, but it shouldn't replace it, since possibly we just haven't gotten around to making the entry for that film. On the other hand, it's less debatable than whether a movie is newsworthy or not: if the entry on the movie survived AfD, then it's worth a link in the actor's filmography. This also encourages cross-linking, one of the things that makes Misplaced Pages ~~fun~~... I mean great, didn't I write great? I haven't checked, but suspect this would probably cover the Schwarzennegger and Stallone issues, since most of their films are multi-million-dollar internationally released epics that have, and usually deserve, individual entries.

I'd also expand the "notable to the career of the performer" clause to add "notable role in the movie". If Jane Schmoe had a bit part in the set of 20 blockbusters, then became famous herself for other things, the 20 blockbusters don't deserve 20 entries in her filmography since she wasn't notable to them. (Though a sentence saying that she worked in minor roles in many films before becoming famous would probably not be out of place.) AnonEMouse 13:02, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay folks, I've started a clause based on what I've seen above regarding filmographies in the main project page. Give it a read through and provide feedback please, as I'd like to implement it on a couple of pages ASAP (e.g., Monique Covét). Tabercil 02:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Pretty good. I added a clause that awards should be for the entire movie or the performer's role - if performer A was in a movie that won an award for "best scene" that didn't involve the performer, that shouldn't count. I also changed "been worthy of mainstream news attention" to "received mainstream news attention", since it is not to us to judge if they really deserved it, just that they got it. :-).

However the phrase "Filmographies should be limited to only films that meet at least one of the following criteria:" bothers me. That will mean that some of our entries won't get a filmography at all, beyond "first movie", which seems kind of rough for articles on actors. It's not much of an actor article if it says "Jane Schmoe has appeared in 137 films", if it doesn't at least partially answer the obvious next question "like what?". Clearly dozens of non-notable films wouldn't be reasonable, but I think a few are needed. I want to take a line from Oldcritter's original proposal, and allow a limited number of films that have been relatively notable to the performer's career, even not meeting the other criteria. Say five non-notable films, plus "first", or four plus "first and last"? Any films that meet the criteria can be listed without limit.

In short, I want to change that "Filmographies should be limited to only six films unless all listings meet at least one of the following criteria:" AnonEMouse

The edits you made are good - in fact I'm kicking myself for not saying that in the first place. :)

As for the "Filmographies should be limited...", I can see what you're trying to say but the phrasing is a little weak IMO. How about: "Filmographies are to be limited to six films at most; for a filmography to run above that length, the added listings must meet at least one of the following criteria:". Tabercil 19:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Quick note to advise that I'm changing the "Filmographies should be..." text to reflect AnonEMouse's comment. Tabercil 04:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has continued at Partial filmographies redux

Ban pay links?

Can we ban links to pay sites, other than the official site of the star? Or is there maybe such a ban already in place? Sick of people adding links to pay sites to articles, especially sites that have nothing to do with the star except they have maybe a gallery or use her name to draw customers! Brjatlick 01:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The list needs to be sent up to the Misplaced Pages developers, since I believe they have ultimate control over that. We should probably create a list of links to ban first prior to any communication with them, so as to help them make the most efficient use of their time. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 03:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

When I started editing, I felt that way, but it was pointed out to me that some commercial sites have information of use - the AFD was one example. Certainly, links to galleries and so forth are beyond the scope of this project, and should be removed. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a collection of links (see What Misplaced Pages is not), so I would Be Bold about removing them. Oldcritter 03:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way to block the addition of some specific links that are added over and over, or added to different pages? Or is it worth the time even, I guess the linkers could just change web addresses? Brjatlick 06:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Adult pornstar mall

Just a short heads-up that the site adult-pornstar-mall has been listed here as being spam. As well, Naconkantari has gone through and pulled a lot of those links out. Everybody might want to double check that:

all of the links to that site are indeed gone from Misplaced Pages
that we don't lose anything by that mass purge. For instance, the page at a-p-m for Belladonna hosted a pair of informative interviews (which I was able to find elsewhere on the net).

Dat's all.... Tabercil 02:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you... I've fixed the link. Tabercil 11:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed also, and asked for it to be un-blacklisted. http://meta.wikimedia.org/Talk:Spam_blacklist#www.adult-pornstar-mall.com Seems like my wish was granted, and it's back to being allowed. AnonEMouse 12:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be un-blacklisted now. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 04:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It should be allowed! It is as useful a resource as anything out there, and every star should have this link. That's just my opinion. Brjatlick 05:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages 1.0 prep work

Since we have been contacted by the 1.0 editorial team, I would just like to say that I encourage all participants to begin work on brining the articles on the list to begin work on enhancing the articles, namely Jenna Jameson, Linda Lovelace, Traci Lords and John Holmes, as they are the ones that have been identified as high priority for inclusion in Misplaced Pages 1.0. I am going to begin working on a critique of the Jenna Jameson article at Talk:Jenna Jameson, since that's probably the most currently important article on there. If you wish to help, please visit the featured article guidelines and peer review to learn what we need to do in order to get the articles up to snuff. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 05:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Time to weigh in on the Cover Issue

I have begun a discussion on Fair Use regarding what I believe are the overly restrictive WP guidelines on movie cover art. I would encourage those with an opinion on the issue to make it known there.Oldcritter 23:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Jim South

Does someone of you want to expand this article? It is in danger of deletion because South is not deemed notable enough. I think he is, and the article should be expanded a bit. I could try, but I'm not a native speaker of English, and preferrably someone with better language skills than me should do it. Regards --Rosenzweig 16:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I looked around and added two good sources, a Hustler article and a 60 Minutes transcript. That's pretty notable - it won't get deleted now. Please feel free to expand it, and others will fix your grammar when needed. Be Bold. I understand he won an AVN Award, and was the agent who recruited Traci Lords... AnonEMouse 17:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

List of HIV-positive people

Hi, I am trying to provide sources for persons included on this list. Including porn stars who have, or died of, aids. It's quite difficult find reliable sources for that. Usually the only sources I could find were forums or IMDB, which are both not the best sources. Does anyone here know another place/or book where I could find that kind of information? Garion96 (talk) 21:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

One place where you can find some of that info is the Dead Porn Stars page at IAFD. They also have links to a couple of other pages with that information... Tabercil 21:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, I will check that one out. Garion96 (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Invitation

I just wanted to let you know that the Biography WikiProject has been reorganized and we wanted to see if you guys were interested in merging with us? We've reorganized it so that it's more like the Military history project with task forces for the specialized areas. One of the task forces we could create could be Actors and Directors-- by merging with us and becoming a task force, you wouldn't lose anything! You'd keep your same page here, it would just be redirected to Actors task force (which we'd create) and you would continue as before, except that instead you'd also gain the benefits of being part of a larger project. We would give you a parameter to our Project banner (actors-task-force=yes) and a note would appear that says the article is a part of that task force (see example on military history article), plus having peer reviews and collaborations, and being able to grade articles by class and importance so that the articles can be part of the WP:1.0 project and much more... Let me know what you think! If you are interested, you need to add your project to the task force vote we're currently having plange 16:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales has decided that the biographies of adult performers are to be treated differently than those of other public figures, with a higher standard of privacy (see Talk: Brandy Alexandre, so I don't see the point in folding the projects together.Oldcritter 16:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair Use publicity photos

I altered the description of these on the project page. We need to be careful: images that promote a porn star are actually likely to NOT be Publicity photos as Misplaced Pages defines them. Mango juice 20:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Non Contributors

I think we should remove the users that don't make pornographic edits for quite some time (User:AlexQ springs to mind). Also, I believe we should ask regular contributors to join via-user talk page. Does anyone oppose? Duane 11:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should divide the list into "presently active" and "presently inactive". People who may have contributed in the past shouldn't be excluded just because they don't contribute actively now. Other than that, I don't oppose contacting regular contributors who may be unaware of the project. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 16:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a great ideal :). Would you like me to make the list, or would you rather do it? Duane 19:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and did it myself. If you want to make changes, please don't hesitate to do so :). Duane 10:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Duane! :-) -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 20:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem. - Duane 20:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How to use the Male adult bio template

Could someone be kind enough to walk me through the use of {{Male adult bio}}, please? I know we're not supposed to subst: it, but how do you get the parameter "prompts" to display in the edit window? I'm sooooooo confused. I swear I've looked elsewhere and can't find any information about how templates with parameters such as these are supposed to be edited. Thanks.—Chidom 20:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I admit {{Male adult bio}} is less user friendly than {{Female adult bio}}; when I need to use it, I generally copy and paste in the example template from {{Female adult bio}} and remove the letters "Fe". :-). Really. That seems to work for almost all of the parameters, though, unfortunately, the male template doesn't really use the AFDB and IAFD, those have to be entered separately. If someone knows templates and can bring Male to the level of Female, that would be much appreciated. AnonEMouse 20:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

:::smacks forehead::: Well, that makes sense! Thanks so much. To move things along, I was bold and lemmed {{Female adult bio}} to update {{Male adult bio}}; the one obstacle I can't seem to solve is that of the hyperlink captions not showing up unless there's data for the hyperlink parameter(s). (IMDB, IAFD, AFDB)

Help on making those parameters optional would be great; the template is much easier to use now. Thanks again.

(By the way, in case you're wondering about that red link up there, "lemmed" is past tense of a verb based on the actions of lemmings; i.e., following blindly. I find a reference to it here, but can't find much about it at all. Dare I say that I picked it up while hosting trivia games on an ISP that shall remain unnamed?)—Chidom 21:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I believe the {{male adult bio}} was derived from a really early version of the {{female adult bio}}. I'll see what I can do to make the male adult bio template functional on par with its parent, as it were. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 22:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Partial filmographies redux

(Just to be sure this doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and because it looks like some edit wars might be forthcoming, I've moved my comments and responses thereto from the original Partial Filmography section to this new section and changing the indent levels appropriately. To determine what was moved, anything that was dated before this comment came from the original section.)—Chidom 23:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to (sort of) play Devil's Advocate, how would one go about finding the rest of the filmography if it's not here? Is everyone going to be diligent about providing links to other resources? And, actually, why should they have to? Why should a user have to go somewhere else to get the information that they wanted to find here? Let's say I want to make sure I see every film Katharine Hepburn was ever in—why shouldn't the complete filmography be here? This is not indiscriminate information. If the actor/actress (either porn or mainstream) is important enough to have an article here, their work should be important information, too. There seems to be a propensity to use "indiscriminate information" to keep the size of Misplaced Pages smaller. While I realize that server space becomes an issue at some point, the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to provide access to knowledge. I'm much more in favor of the "one stop shopping" approach rather than the "send 'em somewhere else for the details" approach. 'nuff said.—Chidom 19:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent point, and I agree. Personally, I will be restoring full filmographies wherever I see they have been deleted by trolls and vandals. The exclusive bad apple 19:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh. If you count those people who cut the filmographies back as "troll & vandals", then you're including me in that list. And I still say full filmographies are not needed , as they can be found for the actors & actresses through a combination of IMDB, IAFD and AFDB. Links to the appropriate pages will usually be found in the info box on the right of the article. Tabercil 21:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

An obsessive Katharine Hepburn fan would also be interested in her favorite color, where she buys her shoes, and who styles her hair; we're not going to go into details on that in her article. There are hundreds of hotels that are very proud that "George Washington slept here"; we shouldn't list them in the George Washington article.

If an otherwise notable person makes a single otherwise mediocre porn film, that is generally very worth mentioning in their article, sometimes even deserving an article of its own. If an otherwise notable person makes half a dozen otherwise mediocre porn films, they are generally worth half a dozen lines in their article. However, with compilations, film lists for certain prolific porn actors reach into the thousands. Listing all of them would completely swamp any other content in the article. At a certain level of quantity over quality ratio, it really is unimportant trivia. AnonEMouse 13:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Also note the exceptions for first film, last film, and films that are notable in their own right, have won awards in any way connected to the performer, or otherwise have an article of their own in the Misplaced Pages. Those are fine to list, however long the list gets. (Most, if not all, Katharine Hepburn films will meet those criteria.) But we desperately need to avoid a long list of "Yet Another Compilation 49; Yet Another Compilation With Bells On 66; Stars With Footage Going Cheap 495;..." that otherwise will be the overwhelming bulk of most porn star articles. AnonEMouse 13:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a terrible analogy. You compare trivial details, such as favorite color, to a film that was made. Actors and actresses are famous for the fact they make movies, why shouldn't all of their movies be listed? George Washington was first famous as a general, so why shouldn't a complete list of every battle he fought in be included? And I believe there is. The same goes for actors and actresses. Films are their life accomplishments, it is only natural that a complete list of their works be included. It seems like this entire argument against complete filmographies is a plot of the far-right conservative wikipedia editors who have an agenda to try to limit the expansion of pornography information as much as possible. Mactabbed 18:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Point taken; however, I can see leaving out compilations, after all, they are collections of scenes from films which would already be listed in the filmography. In the case of Tony Tedeschi, his IAFD profile lists 1095 films, of which only 71 are compilations (don't ask; Excel is a wonderful thing!), there are another 470 listed at AFDB (which was pointing at Victoria Paris from his article here, by the way), that aren't included at IAFD, so I can understand your concern. (I didn't check the AFDB listings for compilations.)

In the case of gay pornography, however, there are good reasons to include complete filmographies, e.g., to my knowledge, no actor has been in thousands of films, and there is no other good single source to find their filmography. The IAFD and AFDB either don't bother to list the performer at all (search on Al Parker, one of the "icons" of gay porn, at IAFD and you get "No performers match your search term"; or don't have anything like a complete list—at AFDB, they list 4 films; and we all know what an excellent source IMDB is—they list a total of 14 distinct films, including ones he produced and directed. Alternatively, a search at tlavideo.com yields a total of 44 films (including ones he directed/produced), 2 books in which he modeled, and another book where he was the subject. Randy White, another prolific gay performer, has around 40 films as well.

In order to cobble together filmographies, however, I've had to visit up to 8 different websities, eliminate duplications, and edit down a list. Along the same lines, I remember running across an article on a gay porn performer here that I couldn't find on any of the websites I usually search, but knew personally that he was indeed a well-known performer! (I just wish I could remember who it was; he would be a great example.)

Finally, yes, a die-hard fan would want to know about hair stylists, etc., but wanting to watch the entire body of work doesn't mean you need all that other information. Porn stars are generally noted for the work they do; not to list that work is to withhold information. Again, if they're "notable" enough to be here, their work is "notable" enough to be listed. Perhaps the solution, given the Tony Tedeschis of the straight industry, is to have a maximum number of films? Say, 50? Although I prefer including information as to other cast members, that wouldn't be required; in two columns, 50 films is 25 lines of type.—Chidom 21:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has continued at Filmographies, round three newer comments have been moved there.

Interesting Discovery

I just found out that the Adult Film Database links aren't as picky as they might seem. If you include the actor/actress's ID number, as long as there is any name after that, it finds the correct profile. So, for example, ...ActorID/94/Name/ yields the same return as ...ActorID/94/Victoria_Paris/.

I mention this as we might want to simply the Adult Male / Adult Female templates to only ask for the ID number and substitute in the "/Name" after whatever number is typed. Less data entry, less margin for error. I'm hesitant to mess with this sort of thing on the templates, anyone want to give it a whack? Shot? Try? Go?—Chidom 21:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Check out, please

Check out the talk page for Category:Indian porn stars. I have put quite a few article requests there. It seems that the category is extremely short on articles, and has massive growth opportunities. (Aditya Kabir 17:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC))

Ongoing deletion of Japanese model articles/lists

I'm pretty much a Wiki newbie, so don't know if what I am seeing going on is business-as-usual, or a user intentionally censoring Misplaced Pages. To me, anyway, it looks like the latter. A certain editor is systematically removing articles on Japanese porn actors/models.

Editor is currently deleting Shoko Goto whom I happen to know is a very popular new actress/model, but who obviously does not meet the American standards of notability. This is just the type of model who belongs on a List of Japanese female porn stars. Coincidentally, this same editor had this list deleted in June. At the time he claimed, "That's what Categories are for. In fact there is a Category:Japanese_porn_stars." Since then, he has been systematically depopulating the category.

The last item on the user's [discussion page shows he has made a practise of this sort of underhanded way of deleting categories of which he does not approve. Investigating the user's other edits (here and here for example) shows a pattern of agressive reverting to get his POV, threatening other editors with 3-revert violation, and when engaged in discussion, refusing to see other views, engaging in bafflingly absurd logic, and threatening other editors with personal attacks when they address his edits. Personally, I do not wish to become involved in this sort of dialog.

There should be a place for unbiased, non-commercial information on these models. Misplaced Pages could be just such a place, if not for this dishonest form of censorship, by applying an American test to models from other countries. Even as well-known (to those who know the subject) an actress/model as Kimiko Matsuzaka clearly fails to meet the American standards Wiki sets for porn star notability. I have considered writing an article on her, indeed any coverage of the Japanese actress/model area would be incomplete without a mention of her. But I know this would be a wasted effort, since this editor is happily progressing towards his apparent goal of erasing every name of every Japanese adult model from Misplaced Pages.

Again, I am not saying every Japanese model needs to have her own article. That's what lists are for. The article Shoko Goto, with 26 movies to her credit in about a year, is clearly going to be deleted. And yet, since the list is deleted, 26 movies don't even allow her to be mentioned on a list.

If the behavior of this editor is considered acceptable, Misplaced Pages should not even claim to be uncensored or plainly culturally biased, or that it even attempts to be so. Dekkappai 04:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This is known as the "notability debate", I think, best described in this essay. In short, to keep the article, we need to show that verifiable sources consider the star notable. For people, this is generally the standards at WP:BIO, for porn stars specifically, usually WP:PORN BIO. All you need to do is show a few independent sources have written specifically about the star, and the article will be kept. This isn't a cultural issue - they can be Japanese articles. AnonEMouse 14:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, AnonEMouse. I think there is something more than "notability debate" going on here however. I would even agree that not all Japanese model/actresses need stand-alone articles. That's why we had the List of Japanese female porn stars (saved in my workspace). However, the editor who is nominating these model articles for deletion also nominated that list for deletion. He first edited that extensive list of models who had no article (and probably did not need them), down to a list of only models who had articles and stated here that "This list really does not serve any purpose. That's what Categories are for. In fact there is a Category:Japanese_porn_stars." He is now systematically de-populating that category. It seeems to me to be an underhanded form of censoring Misplaced Pages of all Japanese models, not only their articles, but also even mentioning their names on a list. Dekkappai 17:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Dekkappai seems to be under the false impression that I delete articles. However, I'm not an admin. All articles must go through the AfD process before they are deleted. If a person or a porn star is not notable, then there does not need to be article on him or her. It's a simple matter. --- Hong Qi Gong 18:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

an uniform epithet

I propose that we have an uniform epithet for porn stars. A few examples: Cindy Crawford (erotic actress), Simone (adult actress) or Gauge (porn star). Notice how all 3 of these porn stars have different epithets in the () part of the article name?

I propose the uniform epithet be (porn actor/actress). --Philo 06:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong support, but I'm not sure about the name. The most common epithet (by far) is "porn star", the categories are named et al, and the project is called WikiProject Porn stars. By using another term, it throws off everything else. It also could be seen as a sign of censorship or being PC on Misplaced Pages's part. On the other hand, some porn stars do go on to become "serious" actors/actresses, and then a whole new problem arises. I guess what I'm saying is, I'd use "porn star" or "actor/actress", but not some watered-down term like "erotic actor/actress" or "adult actor/actress". 24.126.199.129 12:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

yeah, I support porn actor/actress --Philo 03:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

also, "Porn star" is a misnomer for pornographic actors. this would be paramount to calling any actor who has ever appeared in a mainstream movie as a "Movie star" - not everyone is famous. --Philo 05:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I prefer "porn star" for four reasons: it's shorter; it's established usage; it's gender neutral, which avoids the transexual question; and calling them "actors" and "actresses" is not accurate for 90% of them. "Performer" maybe, but to the overwhelming majority of them, "Hamlet" is something you have for breakfast with a small egg. Philo is correct that not all of them are "stars", but as a general purpose encyclopedia, we should only be concerned with the ones who are. "Not a star" makes for a perfectly fine reason for deletion. AnonEMouse 13:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with "porn star" as well. Oldcritter 23:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Ordinary actors and actresses are labeled as such, (actor) or (actress), shouldn't we keep porn stars' format parallel to this, so (adult actor) or (adult actress)? (added by User:Mactabbed but without sig)

How about "Porn actor"? "Adult actor",while in common usage, isn't ideal for categorization because it suggests a parallel with "child actor" -- clearly a different meaning of adult. "Porn star" sounds a bit colloquial, though. I strongly disagree with "actor/actress" -- "actor" is the preferred version for actors of both sexes. "Erotic" isn't descriptive and isn't in common usage. How about "Porn actor"? It integrates it into "actor" category generally and gets away from the "star" term, which is a bit POV. --LQ 19:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this was discussed at length at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (pornographic actors). The discussion has moved to an archive, here and here. My point then and now is that referring to these performers as "actors" and "actresses" is stretching it for quite a few of them; lots of the films don't require any acting at all. My suggestion was "porn performer", but going back and changing everything at this point would be incredibly difficult; comments were made to the effect that time is better spent on other things. Additionally, the guideline uses "actors", rather than any other terminology.

That's not to say it can't be changed; some questions to ponder before doing so are:

change it to what?
is this important in terms of time spent?
is this important in increasing clarity?
does it improve the encyclopedia?
would the change make these articles (and/or guideline) more encyclopedic?
(the ultimate question) should it change?

Even though I'd prefer a different epithet than what currently exists, I think the answer to all the above questions is "no". Just a thought.—Chidom 04:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Dating policy

The dating policy should be changed to simply using the Template:persondata. 24.126.199.129 12:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No, according to Misplaced Pages:Persondata, "The addition of persondata will not affect the normal display of an article since the information remains hidden unless a user sets their user stylesheet to display it." So it doesn't take over the role of the dating policy, but can be used in addition to it. AnonEMouse 12:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Really? I thought it automatically put stuff in categories for you. Well, good thing I asked. Thanks for clarifying that. 24.126.199.129 04:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

AVN Awards nomination and selection procedure?

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I couldn't think of any better, so here's my question: Does anybody know how exactly the winners of the annual AVN Awards are selected, especially the person-related awards (performers, directors)? Who nominates persons? And who selects the winners? Is there a jury? Do AVN readers vote? Or is this solely at the discretion of the AVN staff? I looked around the net a bit, but couldn't find anything about this. Regards --Rosenzweig 18:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Sharon Mitchell

There is a dispute over the validity of Sharon Mitchell's Ph.D degree on the talk page, and an anon keeps changing a sentence to assert that the Ph.D is not valid. Since I am not part of this wikiproject and would rather not violate WP:3RR, and since Sharon Mitchell was a porn star, I was wondering if someone from here could help resolve this. --Core des at talk. ^_^ 08:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Gay vs. Straight

Reading through everything, I was wondering if it's worth it to create the "Gay" and "Straight" sub-groups for the Porn stars project? Would it help to focus people's efforts, to deal with minor differences between categories, and make the respective workloads smaller? Or would it just start and endless division of subprojects: "Male vs Female Straight Porn Stars." "Bisexual Pornstars" "Gay for pay porn star project" etc. Jodyw1 03:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deletes

Heads up folks. I've found that an as-yet-unknown number of porn star articles got speedy deleted by User:Centrx on September 17th, tagged as "A7" in the deletion logs (whatever that means). Known deletions included Kaitlyn Ashley and Juli Ashton both of whom met the notability criteria (the first for having over 100 films, the second for an AVN award). The Kaitlyn Ashley article has been resurrected, and I've asked for the Juli Ashton one to be revived. My concern is why those two got speedied and who else got articles pulled out at the same time. Tabercil 19:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

AFDs underway

The anti-porn star crusade continues on Misplaced Pages, with a number of AFDs currently underway for the likes of SaRenna Lee and Wendy Whoppers. Right now I'm in the lone voice in the wilderness supporting them. 23skidoo 14:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

AVN links

Got an issue over some links and I thought I'd bring it up here for viewing by more eyeballs as well as general discussion. In the Raylene article, I'm currently in a discussion over the links that were placed in it, and one of the links was to an article on the AVN website. That link was pulled out by User:Dalbury, citing that it was a commercial link as well as one that was not reliable. My concern is that if AVN is not considered a reliable link, considering that AVN is pretty much the trade magazine of the adult industry in North America, we're going to lose a lot of material. Should AVN be usable in Misplaced Pages considering it's "commercial"? Can it be considered reliable?? Tabercil 14:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Very Reliable --HeartThrobs 21:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this still an issue? As you said, AVN is the major trade magazine of the adult industry, and produces the annual AVN Awards, the most noteworthy of such award shows. Just like any other magazine, online or otherwise, it accepts advertising. That doesn't make it "commercial".—Chidom 06:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Notability (pornographic actors) as notability guideline

This proposed guideline has been extensively used and referred to for its intended purpose, to simplify Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion discussion, during the past five months, an average of more than every other day. It has simplified discussion, and made it less contentious. It has grown and reacted to discussion and the results of those AfDs; it reflects community practice, and is the sum of many points of view. It has been five months as a proposal. It is not perfect, but it is a lot better than nothing. I believe it is now time to mark it as a full fledged notability guideline, and subset of WP:BIO.

Please discuss at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (pornographic actors)#Ready to become a notability criteria guideline, and help us reach consensus on marking it as such. AnonEMouse 16:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

J. Bruce Howie photos

Some logic flaw here: while it is nice that JBH has consented to the use of the CES 2003 photos on his website under a CC license, it seems to me that he is not the photographer, since he is on every one of these photos and there is a statement "various photographers". So can he license photos he did not take himself? --Rosenzweig 19:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Oy. Just what I need to contemplate on a Friday afternoon - a zen debate over pictures of porn stars <G>. I am going to say that the circumstances behind these photos is probably that it is Howie's camera that the photo was taken with, and that he had someone else at that booth take the photo of him standing next to the given porn star. In that case, the identity of the photographer is unknowable since each photo would have a different "photographer". However, I would argue on the basis of the principle of "possession is 9/10th of the law", Howie is the copyright holder of the photos - after all, who else would have cause to have the originals of these photos? And the key point here is that it is the copyright holder who determines what license is used by Misplaced Pages on these photos. Tabercil 21:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Project Directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:

User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

For the curious, we seem to be in two places, User:Badbilltucker/Culture_Directory#Films and User:Badbilltucker/Culture_Directory_2#Biography. From perusing Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Council/Directory/WikiProject, I think our listing, sad as it is, is correct - we don't do many formal reviews or collaborations, but we are still somewhat active. :-(. AnonEMouse 12:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now moved the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. And, yes, every project is listed in all the "categories" (fields where there is more than one group) that it seemed to me that they qualify. B2T2 14:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Implementation

Are the "suggestions" here now to be used as a guideline for editing existing articles? If so, when did the information here become those guidelines?

For example, filmographies are being culled with the information here as the reason for doing so. I am still concerned about gay porn performers, and no one seems to want to reach some sort of consensus with regard to those concerns. My last comment about filmographies, proposing a maximum number of films, had no response. In most cases for gay performers, leaving out compilations should keep the filmography down to a manageable size; they don't make thousands of films as some straight performers do. I'm not looking forward to some edit-happy Wikipedian pulling up all the gay porn articles and reducing filmographies without the slightest idea of which films won awards, etc. Perhaps another solution is to "grandfather" existing articles in somehow on this issue?

It would also be helpful if some statement were made about the usage of the information here with regard to editing articles. Thanks.—Chidom 10:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You mean the one where you suggest setting the bar at listing 50 non-notable films? Honestly, that seems like quite a lot to me - not thousands, but still excessive. Feel free to argue your point further, of course. Remember, first film, last film, and films with awards or otherwise individual notability are not bound by the 6 limit; what's more, they will (or should) probably be mentioned in the main body of the article, which should cut down on the edit-happy Wikipedians that worry you. (Not eliminate them, of course, but that's the nature of a Wiki; I'd be surprised if any given article gets more film removals than outright vandalism.)

Usage of information? I don't know, frankly. I tried hard to find how guidelines get set, when I wanted to mark WP:PORNBIO a notability criteria guideline, and didn't find anything satisfactory. I had to do the best I could, which was far better than the last and most relevant guideline setting I could find, and even so my actions there are being questioned (see the talk page there). So is the 6 film filmography rule a formal guideline, just because the project seems to like it? I don't know, but I do recommend following it. Whether or not it's "the law", it's a good idea. AnonEMouse

Actually, the suggestion to set a bar at 50 films was in response to the much lower limit of 6 films that apparently will be the guideline. I strongly disagree that we shouldn't include filmographies here. As far as gay films go, most of the major adult databases include little or no information on the performers and I know of only one commercial site that lists films that are no longer commercially available for purchase. IAFD, AFDB, and IMDB are all jokes when it comes to non-mainstream, non-Ameriican porn; this information isn't readily available elsewhere. If a performer warrants an article here, then the body of their work should be listed; that information will be lost forever if not collected when it is more current. In my view, including filmographies for performers warranting articles here is not an "indiscriminate collection of information"—it preserves information that will eventually be available nowhere else. While I can appreciate that no one needs to list 1,000 or more films for a performer, that is an issue largely for fairly modern mainstream American pornography, not for other genres and porn from other countries, as has been discussed elsewhere.

((Placing tongue firmly in cheek here)) Daring to compare pornography with mainstream film, the article for Michael Caine, a prolific, award-winning actor, includes a filmography listing in excess of 100 films. The majority of those films have articles here; whether they should or not is, to my mind, questionable: take a look at Mr. Destiny, Miss Congeniality, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, etc. (And yes, I enjoyed some of those films immensely—that's not a good criterion for having an article here, however.) If there is going to be an article about every film that a well-known actor/actress appeared in, why have a different standard for porn? My personal favorite of the articles referenced in Mr. Caine's article is The Actors, the full text of which follows:

The Actors is a 2003 film starring Dylan Moran and Michael Caine.

The Actors at the IMDB

This comedy film-related article is a stub. You can help Misplaced Pages by expanding it.

This article about a crime film is a stub. You can help Misplaced Pages by expanding it.

(The article was created on 2006-05-28 and the last revision was on 2006-06-29; had it been a porn-related article, it would have been killed within an hour.)

If a well-known porn performer is in a film, let's write an article about it with as much information and/or substance as is in the previous examples. In fact, many mainstream films have official webistes with scads of information; Miss Congeniality apparently has three: one each for Miss Congeniality and the sequel, Armed and Fabulous, and an additional official UK site. The IMDB isn't such a bad source of information for lots of mainstream films but provides little or no information about pornographic ones. Let's face it—information on porn films is ~~hard to come by~~ (couldn't resist) difficult to obtain. Wouldn't that be greater justification for having an article about the porn film here?

((Removing tongue from cheek. Note to self: never again try to chew gum with tongue in cheek.))

All that by way of demonstrating that I haven't entirely lost my sense of humor about this. I seem to be the minority voice crying in the wilderness, or perhaps I'm the minority among minority voices who hasn't just given up and gone away.—Chidom 19:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that reference to mainstream actors is that valuable a point. Mainstream actors, like porn stars and musicians, have rabid and obsessive fans who want complete filmographies and lots of other information in whatever reference source they like the best. Someone should fix those articles, but they shouldn't define the rules for all articles--we don't want lowest common denominator to be our standard. Those articles that are too long and crowded with fancruft don't define wikipedia; rather, wikipedia is defined as a general reference source. It needs to be exclusive and selective, not comprehensive, or it ceases to be functional.

Your 50-film suggestion, for instance. In my opinion, it's way too long. You suggest leaving out the compilations, but that still leaves actors who have hundreds more films than the 50. What's the selection for those 50? How would people know what are compilations and what aren't? How will people keep from jockeying to get their favorite films listed in the 50? We already know the 50 aren't "notable," because if they were notable they would be outside the 6-film (or 50-film) limit anyway. (Plus it is unlikely that there are 50 notable films in any actor's career, porn or non-porn.)

The fact that there is no other good resource for something--the list of gay actor films for instance-- is not a reason for Misplaced Pages to jump in and fill the breach. It's a very good reason for someone to develop a database that meets that need for comprehensive information.

Your suggestion that gay porn stars are typically in fewer films and therefore their films are, as a rule, more notable, argues not for a general 50-film limit in all porn stars, but rather for a tiered or staggered limit--6 films for most stars; maybe 10 or 12 or special particular genres.

And all of these are guidelines. In rare instances that are individually justified, a complete filmography might be appropriate. Maybe someone makes 15 films and then dies young, or achieves mainstream stardom and abandons porn, or each film is regarded as a mini-masterpiece, or whatever. But as a guideline for the generic category of porn stars, 6 films seems workable to me; 50 seems way too big.

--LQ 23:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

DVD Covers

Me and User:Chidom got into a debate about DVD covers - prompted by my pulling one out of the Desireé Cousteau and he put an absolutely beautiful post on my talk page on the issue. I'm putting the entire post here so more eyeballs will see it and also see if we can't kick-start some action on the topic:

Bet you thought I forgot about this, huh? Nope. From Template talk:Albumcover.

"User:JYolkowski: If you want to use album covers in the artist's or single's page, write a paragraph about the album, and use the cover to illustrate that paragraph. There's probably no valid fair use rationale we could make to use the images for decorative purposes."

This seems reasonable and would, I think, meet the fair use policy requirements. A more appopriate image for the article (or perhaps an additional image) might be that of the cover of the DVD "Pretty Peaches" since that is the film for which she won the ADFA award. It's a horrible-looking illustration of her rather than a photograph, but since ostensibly the main purpose of the image is to illustrate the DVD, I don't know of a work-around. I've uploaded the Pretty Peaches image and added it to the article, feel free to remove it. Image:Desireé Cousteau on Pretty Peaches DVD cover.jpg. If you think it's too icky to use, or do wind up removing it from the article, just let me know and I'll put a speedy delete tag on it as the uploader.

I've expanded the information about both DVDs given the limited information in the plot summaries I found (and referenced); I think this bolsters the case to be made for fair use. (You may or may not have figured out that straight porn isn't my area of expertise, but I do know how to go hunting!)

I also added a videography. It's nine films rather than six; she worked for 10 years and released films in only 9 of them. The two that are mentioned in the article are repeated in the videography solely to list the distributor and, in the case of Inside..., the director.

Additionally, I think DVD covers really are different than magazine covers. Think of the variety of topics and subjects in a magazine vs. the limited subjects of a DVD, recording, etc. With a much narrower focus, DVDs and other recordings aren't as related to magazines as I also assumed. (I was using the magazine cover rationale as well, and then really thought about it; I think there's a difference between recordings and publications in the way subject matter meets fair use, but it's just an opinion.) You may want to kick this information around on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Porn stars, it seems the use of DVD covers hasn't been decided there, either. Thanks.—Chidom 21:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a pretty good argument there... Tabercil 23:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

MySpace

207.16.198.77 (talk · contribs) has been removing MySpace templates for articles en masse using WP:EL as justification (presumably "Links to blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace), or discussion forums unless mandated by the article itself."). A quick glance through MySpace's "What links here" gives a multitude of celebrities who have links to their accounts- Ricky Martin, Beyoncé Knowles, Björk, Jennifer Lopez etc. There has been discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:External links#Official MySpace pages, but a definite policy has not been decided upon yet. Olessi 19:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The following comments were originally posted on the talk page of User:Olessi.

I'm not sure why you posted a comment regarding MySpace at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Porn stars, none of the examples you list are porn stars. As for the examples you do list, I would remove the MySpace links—all of them have official websites which should suffice.—Chidom 19:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I listed the celebrity examples to show that MySpace links exist for "non-porn" biography articles, and was wondering if the only reason they are being removed from porn biographies is because of higher standards for such articles. Most people discussing the inclusion of MySpace pages at Misplaced Pages talk:External links seem to agree that MySpace links should be included if it is the "official" website or if it offers relevant information not already listed in the article. As some porn stars seem to have "official" MySpace pages but not official websites, it is unclear to me if some porn stars should have MySpace links but not others. Because many of the removals have been connected with the subject of this noticeboard, I mentioned them here so the rest of the community can become involved in the discussion. Olessi 20:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have mentioned the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:External links#Official MySpace pages. Olessi 20:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Filmographies, round three

Sigh... is there still a consensus that the guidelines we have filmographies for the adult actresses is still good and valid (i.e., 6 films at most, with exceptions past that number in specific cases)? My problem is that I've seen full filmographies added to the Courtney Cummz and Alexis Malone articles, and I want to be sure I'm on solid ground before I cull them back as per our suggestions... Tabercil 22:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Also Leah Luv ... --LQ 23:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No, leave the complete filmographies for now until a concensus can be reached.

Moved from Partial filmographies redux above:

Complete filmographies should always be used. The argument against compete listings is simply another plot of the extreme conservatives who want to limit the amount of porn-related content on Misplaced Pages. "Obscene" images cannot be uploaded, actors must be "notable" enough to merit an article, and now only "partial" filmographies are allowed. When will the censorship end? Mactabbed 04:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Right. You're accusing us of not playing fair when you yourself are currently under accusation of abusive edits and copyright violations - see the Admin noticeboard. Not an attack, just an observation. Tabercil 06:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I really wouldn't see a conservative (or any other) plot here. Partial filmographies are the standard in all actors, not just porn stars. For that matter, partial bibliographies are the standard in academics and writers. Look, the main problem with complete *ographies in wikipedia is the impracticality / impossibility of policing them. Any long list is difficult to police, because people simply won't be familiar with all the works. So who can remove false titles, erroneous titles, duplicate titles with slightly variant names, and so on. Imagine the no-compilations rule introduced above. Not everyone is going to read the rules and understand "no compilations," and someone will add compilations. But in a list of scores of works, people coming to the page de novo won't pick that out as a compilation. And even people who monitor and police the work may not be familiar with it as a compilation. In a list that purports to be "comprehensive", people are disinclined to remove errenous information because they're just not sure. This is why wikipedia isn't a good place for "complete" filmographies. Ideally, a complete filmography makes it easy for people to remove erroneous information as well as add in missing information. If you want a complete filmography for a star, for instance, you should include enough information to describe and identify each work -- such as ISBN, sources, production date, description, time, distribution, and so on, so that people can realize that there are duplicates with different names, etc. Hey, that's a resource like IMDB. Filmographies in an pornstar page would be too long to be readily edited or managed. --LQ 12:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

IMDB is not a reliable source of complete filmographies, for any sort of actor or actress, especially those who make pornography. Please see the discusssions at Partial filmographies and Partial filmographies redux above.—Chidom 00:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Like IMDB. In other words, a database dedicated to the purpose. --lquilter 15:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Jenna Jameson

This is the another step in our semi-insane goal of eventually getting a WP:P* article to Misplaced Pages: Featured article status. Please weigh in with advice on how to improve the article. AnonEMouse 21:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Jenna Jameson has made Misplaced Pages:Good article status! Champagne and cigars all around! AnonEMouse 15:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Huzzah indeed! Now if we're feeling ambitious, I have a suggestion for the next person to tackle for GA status: Ron Jeremy. Jimbo Wales himself blanked the article down a week or so ago on basis on a complete lack of sources, and I've rebuilt the article as best I can with cites everywhere (and Jimbo left a note commending the rebuild job). As a result of all that, we have a solid basis from which to build on to get Ron up to GA class. Tabercil 20:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

It's on to the (hopefully) last step: Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Jenna Jameson - but it's not a sure thing, there is a lot of criticism, much based on writing quality. Any help would be appreciated - I've read the sentences so many times, I can't see anything wrong until someone points to specific issues. I promise to get to Ron Jeremy next. --AnonEMouse 16:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Stablepedia

Beginning cross-post.

See Misplaced Pages talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team#Stablepedia. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★MESSED ROCKER★ 23:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.

21Sextury Productions

I created an article for 21Sextury Productions in October, but it was deleted in November for non-notability. The sources used for the article were all from websites associated with the company, so we should use third party sources when possible. I found an AVN link; please list them here if more relevant articles are found. Olessi 21:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Anna?

Does this girl have a WP article? If not, is she notable enough for one? She's mostly in Big Tits Round Asses vids. —Disavian (/_contribs) 22:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it. You want to look at Misplaced Pages: Notability (pornographic actors) for the notability guideline. Basically - news coverage, awards, that sort of thing. AnonEMouse 22:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! Also, how would you go about finding her IMDB profile-type thing? —Disavian (/_contribs) 03:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I searched on IMDB for "Big Tits Round Asses" and didn't find anything; I doubt she has a listing. Being listed on IMDB, however, is not a good criterion for having an article here, as is explained in the guidelines AnonEMouse referenced. Good luck.—Chidom 20:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that IMDB != Notability; I was just curious on that one. Thanks for helping. —Disavian (/_contribs) 01:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If you search IMDB, you might be well advised to confirm that their search results are coming back with the full range of results. If I access IMDB anonymously and search for Debbie Does Dallas, the result it comes back with is a TV documentary called The Curse of Debbie Does Dallas as all the adult vids pulled out of the results. Tabercil 03:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm that you have to register for an account and be logged in to see adult titles. There is a IMDbPro account available for a fee, but registering for a free account allows access to the adult titles if the account preferences are set to display them.—Chidom 07:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I know, and I have an account. It's still a pain in the who-zits to have to stop and check when you do a search. Tabercil 13:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've just taught myself to scan for a "(V)" next to a movie title. If there isn't one and I know I'm searching for a porn performer, something's wrong. One nice thing about IMDb, though, is that you have to specifcially log out of your account; otherwise you're logged in forever. I just leave myself logged in.—Chidom 01:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this appropriate?

Two articles were recently deleted under what I feel are somewhat questionable circumstances: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Playboy Playmates with D-cup or larger breasts and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of big-bust models and performers (3rd nomination). The first was nominated because it was "disgusting." The debate quickly changed to more cosmetically acceptable criteria for deletion, but the sense of moral disapproval remained in the "delete" argument. The consensus at the second discussion, at the article nominated for the third time, was clearly for keep, yet was deleted anyway. This action is being questioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review#List_of_big-bust_models_and_performers Is this business as usual at Misplaced Pages? Can I search for articles of which I personally disapprove, and nominate them for deletion repeatedly until I get an administrator who shares my bias? (Not that I would ever do this, of course, since I have a firm belief in intellectual freedom.) Dekkappai 22:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be a trend: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kayla Kleevage. (I don't even follow the American scene, and I've heard of her.) Dekkappai 22:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Morality is not a criterion for deletion, otherwise Adolf Hitler and the atrocities committed in WWII would be deleted as well. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 01:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

True. And given the choice between boobs-- which seem to make some here so squeamish-- and war atrocities, I'll take the former. But to each his own. Dekkappai 01:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not an apt comparison ... in the one you're talking about the morality and worth of the list/article; in the other you're talking about the morality of the subject of the article. The AFDs and CFDs are generally fairly critical of arts & entertainment fancruft, so the moral disapproval I think is (at least) as much about that as it is about the sex aspect. --lquilter 15:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

There's a clear anti-porn bias on Misplaced Pages that makes it very difficult for any porn-related article to survive unless the subject matter is so widely known that it's part of general pop culture. I personally feel that once an article is nominated for AFD more than twice and survives that either a permanent ban on further AFD nomination is put in place, or at the very least a one-year moratorium. I won't go on a limb and accuse anyone in this particular case of gaming the system to get the result they want, but I have seen several occasions where a failed AFD is attempted again a few weeks later and this time goes through. In the case of the Big Bust list, the AFD list looked more like a "non consensus" result rather than something justifying delete. 23skidoo 16:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Misplaced Pages Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Careful, Bill. Posting invites at porn talk pages can get you blocked permanently, without warning, even a month after the last such invitation. (see: User talk:Hexvoodoo) On the other hand, you can vandalize public pages repeatedly and get warnings galore before any action is taken... Guess it all comes down to your chosen subject, and the whim of the admin... Dekkappai 17:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Female adult bio infobox restructure?

Here's a conversation that would include the tightening of the infobox. Please chime in with your thoughts and ideas. Thanks. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 15:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Chronology of adult videos in Japan

With the intent of providing an organized structure, and a historical/cultural context to the articles and stubs on Japanese porn stars floating around on Misplaced Pages, I've been working on a Chronology of adult videos in Japan article, which I put up yesterday. Everyone involved in WikiProject Porn stars is invited to take a look, and contribute help or suggestions for improvement. Regards to all. Dekkappai 01:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Biography

Hi. I've been out of the loop for a while so I don't know if you're "officially" a sub project of WP Biography now, or if you've just plonked yourself in "our" categories :) If you have officially joined forces that's great; however, I think to reduce template clutter on talk pages and for general ease of maintenance you ought to be sharing our template. We already share it to great effect with the WP Musicians and British Royalty wikiprojects. Please see Template talk:WPBiography for more info. --kingboyk 16:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's a good idea, as WPBIO has the rating/category system and all. Anyone opposed? —Disavian (/_contribs) 06:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion list?

Is there a list of pornstar-related deletion discussions? I ask because:

I know there's one for CVG, and it seems like a logical extension of a WikiProject.
I've been commenting on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gianna Michaels (2nd nomination)
Porn stars have their own standards of notability, and WikiProject Porn stars participants are probably the best judges of that.
Porn star articles are at a higher risk (by my judgment, anyway) of being deleted than most other biographical articles.

—Disavian (/_contribs) 17:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

There isn't. There should be. If you make one, and maintain it, it will be on my watchlist. --AnonEMouse 18:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It'd have to be a community thing-- one person can't pay *that* much attention to AfD. However, I'll look into creating it. —Disavian (/_contribs) 19:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course note that it won't merely get people showing up to say "keep per WP:PORNBIO" - some will be watching the page to say "delete per WP:PORNBIO". :-). But that's good too. --AnonEMouse 20:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I realize that it goes both ways, and that it's a good thing :) —Disavian (/_contribs) 20:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea, Disavian. I'm always afraid an article I'm interested in will be put up for deletion and removed before I even know it and have a chance to say anything in its defense. Porn-related articles are certainly prone to AfD. And, apparently, notifying interested editors about AfD's is frowned upon, because this may result in "vote-stacking" (though, as I understand it, an AfD is not a "vote" anyway). A deletion list would be more NPOV, since, as AnonEMouse pointed out, any editor, regardless of interest, would be able to monitor the list. I'll certainly help maintain the listings for articles in the Japanese area, and I'm pretty sure other editors would do the same with articles in their field of interest. Dekkappai 22:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I've started an empty page here: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Porn stars/Deletion. —Disavian (/_contribs) 23:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

If someone could find a good place to list it on the project page, that'd be nice. Also, update it! :) —Disavian (/_contribs) 23:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow, it seems to have come in handy. However, 12 simultaneous articles up for deletion seems a bit... excessive. What's the point? —Disavian (/_contribs) 19:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Lesbianism in erotica

I'm trying to get consensus about usage the adjective "lesbian" and the noun "lesbianism" in the article Lesbianism in erotica and potentially head off an edit war between myself and User:Joie de Vivre. Basically, this user insists on very narrow usage of the words "lesbian" and "lesbianism" no matter what the context, restricting only to descriptions of self-identified "lesbians". It is my belief that "ordinary language" use of the word lesbian allows this term as a broad description of same-sex activity between women and that the phrase "lesbian sex" can be reasonably used to describe sex between bisexual women. I feel very strongly that English usage in Misplaced Pages should reflect generally accepted usage of the English language by the larger public and not usage that may be confined to a particular subculture.

Based on this, JdV had changed the title to "Sex between women in erotica" and rewrote the article to expunge nearly every instance of the word "lesbian". I think the results of JdV's edits were largely tendentious and clunky and have reverted them (though I've incorporated some of JdV's edits after reverting).

If you have an opinion on this, please weigh in at Talk:Lesbianism_in_erotica: Renaming_article. Iamcuriousblue 00:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Monique Alexander

There's a full scale edit war right now at the Monique Alexander article, and yes, its between myself and User:Joie de Vivre. It seems that in addition to "lesbian", the word "contract girl" and "interracial" are considered highly offensive by this editor, in spite of the fact that they're standard terms in the porn industry. Please see Talk:Monique Alexander for more details.

This isn't even an article I'm particularly interested in beyond changing some pretty bowdlerized language that has been inserted into the article. If anybody would like to step in, please do. Iamcuriousblue 18:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Standard terminology in the porn industry does not necessarily equal the terminology we should use on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages does not use the terminology that would be used at a KKK meeting, either, regardless of how "standard" it is in that environment. Joie de Vivre 18:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Girl-girl

Until recently, girl-girl has always redirected to Lesbianism in erotica, however, User:Joie de Vivre has changed the redirect to Pornography, while I have reverted back to the original. An RfC concerning this can be found at: Talk: Girl-girl: Request for Comment. Iamcuriousblue 05:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Change WikiProject Porn stars to WikiProject Pornography.

Proposal: WikiProject Pornography

I'm very interested in creating a WikiProject Pornography, for work on pornography-related articles beyond this project's specialized focus on porn stars. I want to get some opinions on which way to go with that project in relation to this one:

1) Change WikiProject Porn stars to WikiProject Pornography. In other words, simply expand this project to include other aspects of pornography besides just the actors.

2) Create WikiProject Pornography. Keep WikiProject Porn stars separate. Essentially, WikiProject Pornography would then be the "parent" of this WikiProject.

I could go either way, but I'd like to hear from others involved with this project. Iamcuriousblue 21:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What would be the difference in practice? --AnonEMouse 21:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That seems obvious to me – WikiProject Porn stars is entirely focused on porn actors. A WikiProject Pornography could also cover porn films, porn directors, porn genres, the overall porn industry, and the history of pornography. It could even be broaden enough to include the topic of pornography as a social issue. Iamcuriousblue 22:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Support I've had similar thoughts about the project, Iamcurous, since I've been working on articles on directors, films, writers, AVs, film genres... in addition to performers. So I'd support the creation of a broader project, though I'm not really sure what the end result of that broader project would be. Dekkappai 22:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Support change (that is, #1). --AnonEMouse 22:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Support, especially since (like Dekkappai) I've done work on a number of articles already that fall outside the Porn Star cat and into the Pornography cat. Mind you, I'm curious how this will interact with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography, which the original WP:P* was arguably a (unofficial) subset of. Tabercil 22:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Support #1. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 23:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Support #1 - However, the parentage of this all should flow to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Biography/Arts_and_entertainment and that structure should be used to develop the structure for WikiProject Pornography. At present, the parentage of WikiProject Porn stars should be Arts and Entertainment Work Group - Actors. Also, if you haven't already done so, it might be beneficial to run WikiProject Porn stars and/or WikiProject Pornography through the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals system. -- Jreferee 17:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like there's support for proposal number one. I'll let the poll run for a week or so and if there aren't any objections, I'll make the move. Iamcuriousblue 23:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I'm a little late, but I'll throw in my support. As an aside, I'd like to see us share WPBiography's template for porn stars. —Disavian (/_contribs) 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This project should be renamed

Regardless of whatever is going on above with expansion of this project, this project, and Category:Porn stars, and whatever other templates and such use the term "porn stars", should all be renamed to "Pornographic actors". "Porn star" is a slang term, we don't refer to any other type of actors in wikipedia as "stars", so calling porn actors this is inappropriate. Note that the main article on this topic is already called Pornographic actor, not "porn star". --Xyzzyplugh 19:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and still support "Category:Porn", with "actors, models, directors, writers, etc." going under that category. Dekkappai 20:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm definitely in favor of something that deletes "star" from the terminology, "stars" is not consistent with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view—who makes the judgment call that the person is a "star"? However, I'm not too keen on using "actor", either.

My first choice for terminology would be "Performers in pornography". "Pornographic actors" is different than "Black actors", "Jewish actors", etc.; the descriptor applies to them as people. Here, the performers aren't pornographic, what they do is. Other choices might be "People in pornography" (which broadens who can be included: directors, etc.), "Pornography performers", or "Pornographic performers" (my least favorable for reason above).

I proposed something along these lines a long while back at Misplaced Pages:Notability (pornographic actors), the discussion is in the talk page archives, with more comments under the section "New can of language worms, anyone?" (OK, I thought it was funny at the time).

I've been effecting similar changes elsewhere. List of gay porn stars has been renamed List of male performers in gay porn films; Category:Gay porn stars been renamed Category:People appearing in gay pornography. I proposed both changes. With regard to the category change, it can now include non-actors ("models" who appear in live sex shows, either online or in public, for example).

A drawback here, and one of the points made at WP:BIO, was that if we want to be consistent, there are gazillions of changes that would need to be made.—Chidom 20:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Could someone change this mistake?

Hallo, I found the following mistake: The french actress Marilyn Jess has a page at the english wikipedia with the name "Marylin Jess", but actually this is wrong. She never appeared anythere with this name - so someone mixed up the "i" and the "y" in her given name. The link http://egafd.com/actresses/details.php/id/m0008 shows all her names. Could anyone change this mistake please or create a redirect please? Sorry my english is not the best. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.188.9.90 (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

OK. Done. Dekkappai 02:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Collaborations?

Is there some sort of weekly/monthly/etc. collaboration project? Recently Lisa Sparxxx's article was basically gutted. Granted, the info removed wasn't sourced but now it's a one sentence article with an infobox. Surely she's done something that can be cited, so I'm wondering if there's some sort of effort for filling in these articles. Dismas| 11:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Pornography

I've moved the project from WikiProject Porn stars to Wikiproject Pornography as per consensus. The project covers the same topics it always has, but is now expanded to include porn films, filmmakers, porn genres, internet porn, and the larger topic of pornography itself. I've made some changes to the project page to reflect that. Let me know if the new version meets with your approval or whether some changes should be made. Iamcuriousblue 19:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a good change, thanks. Johntex\ 19:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Lukas Ridgeston

Not sure if there has ever been any community consensus on this, but there is a discussion over at Talk:Lukas Ridgeston#Birth Name as to whether or not the use of the actor's real name in the article is an invasion of privacy. I see that the issue come up before on this discussion page about a year ago (Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pornography/Archive 1#Real names), but I'm not sure if any consensus was ever reached. Skeezix1000 20:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate to post actors real names without permission

I think it should be considered a taboo to post the real names of adult actors without their express permission or if they are deceased or have publicly stated their real names. The pseudonyms are not used so much to sound sexy, they are to protect those people's identities from stalkers and the like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.161.105 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As public figures, you must realize that porn stars' rights to privacy are lessened. Misplaced Pages is no exception to this rule, and we aren't about to carve out an exception for them. —Disavian (/_contribs) 17:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That said, though, per Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons, it is one of the things we really should cite sources for. Marylin Star is an example; it is not clear whether she has voluntarily given her real name, but it has been cited by sources such as Time, CNN, and the New York Times, so we use it. --AnonEMouse 19:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The anon editor is most likely Joanna Angel or someone in her employ based upon this edit in conjunction with this topic. I agree that BLPs should be vigorously sourced. However, we have no obligation to remove true information, although we tend to make an exception for statements that may be construed as libelous. Names, as far as I know, are not libelous. :) —Disavian (/_contribs) 23:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If your going to have your biography on wikipedia, your name is a prerequisite. Manic Hispanic 00:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(outdent for clarity of quotations)
I believe portions of the Biographies of living persons policy deals with this in very clear terms: (green text is my emphasis)

When the subject of the article is not a public figure
Shortcut
]

Misplaced Pages also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not public figures but are nevertheless entitled to the respect for privacy afforded public figures. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only information relevant to their notability. Material from primary sources should generally not be used unless it has first been mentioned by a verifiable secondary source (see Using the subject as a source).
In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives.

and

Presumption in favor of privacy Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy.
Public figures In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take information from, and Misplaced Pages biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out.
* * * *
Material from primary sources should be used with care. For example, public records that include personal details such as home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations and home or business addresses should not generally be used. Where a fact has first been presented by a verifiable secondary source, it is acceptable to turn to open records as primary sources to augment the secondary source. Material that is related to their notability, such as court filings of someone notable in part for being involved in legal disputes, are allowable, as are public records such as graduation dates, dates of marriage licenses and the like, where they are publicly available and where that information has first been reported by a verifiable secondary source. See also Misplaced Pages:Verifiability.

I agree that care should be taken to be sure that disclosing the information substantially contributes to establishing the notability of the person. I doubt that this is true with regard to providing someone's legal name. They may have "stage names" or pseudonyms primarily in order to protect their privacy. Misplaced Pages should not violate that privacy for the sake of titillation.

It's also important to note the distinctions about where and when primary, secondary, and tertiary sources are allowed.—Chidom 11:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

And just to add to the discussion, I want to make mention of an email exchange I had with Jimbo on the topic of sources for their real names. I had asked him about using IMDB as a source:

Is there any better source than the IMDB article? IMDB relies on user-contributed content, and I see no reason why it would count as a remotely valid source in this case. If there is a valid source (newspaper, magazine, book?) then I would assume it can be introduced no problem. But as it stands now, we are likely to simply be echoing someone's smear campaign against someone else entirely if we just quote IMDB.

Note that the original topic of discussion was regarding Aurora Snow's real name, but the same logic I think would apply for other actors. Tabercil 12:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that most real names for adult performers whose work has appeared in the United States must be revealed under federal law. It is easy for anyone to obtain the real name of a performer simply by filing the proper request with the company (film, photographic, Web, etc.) which produced the work. By law, the name (along with proof of age) must be released. While I understand that the putting the real names of individuals on Misplaced Pages may cause some performers distress and may cause unwanted attention (such as stalkers, problems with child custody, job loss, etc.), I see this as part of the risk performers undertake when they enter the adult film industry. The real name of Tom Cruise is known, and people can easily find out where he lives. The real name of Lukas Ridgeston is known (and easily found on the Web), and people can find out where he, too, lives. - Tim1965 01:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

That's fairly clearly covered under Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought. We don't write articles that require "filing the proper request" ... or just imagine what could be written under the banner "It's easily verified by filing a request under the freedom of information act", or "It's easily verified by performing a simple experiment involving balls of different weight and the leaning tower of Pisa". "easily found on the Web" doesn't qualify as a Misplaced Pages:reliable source, and for something controversial about a living person, we need good citations from reliable sources. If the person in question is actively trying to hide this bit of information, it's pretty clearly controversial, which means we need to be extra careful. --AnonEMouse 14:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, I came across a fairly new (1 month-old) WP article: Grigori Galitsin. On one hand, I think the subject of the article was a notable enough figure in the internet porn world to have a bio up. However, the article itself mostly seems to source from internet discussion groups. It also publishes the actual names of the models based on discussion group citations. I'm pretty sure this violates all kinds of WP guidelines. I'll probably step in and clean it up in the next few days, unless somebody wishes to argue that proper sources were used. Iamcuriousblue 20:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Any Spanish speakers?

If there are any people present on the project who are fluent in Spanish, can they look at this story about Nacho Vidal and see if there are any details we can fold into his article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tabercil (talk • contribs) 00:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Template and Assessment Project

I'd like to propose that WikiProject Pornography begin using a template. I propose {{Pornography}}. As noted on Misplaced Pages:Template namespace, all we'd need to do is create a page at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pornography/Template:TheNameOfYourTemplate. I think it would be also worthwhile to establish an Assessment Project for WikiProject Pornography as well. With that in mind, I'll propose the following as a template: 1) That we choose a red "XXX" as our image (I can create one); and 2) That we use the following as our text in the infobox:

This article is part of WikiProject Pornography, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to porn stars and pornography. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

I can assist in setting up the Assessment Project portion of the Pornography Project, as well as the Talk page template (I know a good Wiki coder).

I feel pornography is as legitimate an art form as painting, and sexual performance as legitimate as any acting Bette Davis or Brad Pitt does. (Strike that Brad Pitt reference...) I think this would help us add a little legitimacy to our project, and garner porn some additiona legitimacy within Misplaced Pages and in the larger world. Any comments? Boos and hisses? Great cheers? - Tim1965 20:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. --AnonEMouse 21:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to note: we actually already have a template: Template:Pornproject (which used to be Template:Pornstars). I'm all for modifying it or moving it to whatever name folks here think is most useful – but let's definitely modify the existing template (as opposed to creating a completely separate page), since that template is already up on a number of pages. Iamcuriousblue 21:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason why it fell into disuse? (Pardon my lack of knowledge here...) - Tim1965 23:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't a very large Misplaced Pages:WikiProject in terms of participants, while it is quite active in terms of drama and current events. Something like Misplaced Pages: WikiProject Military history can take its time and work on century old subjects of undisputed notability. Even relatively minor subjects like Davout or Battle of Pea Ridge aren't going to either have much new information that needs to be added in the next few months, or even years, or get speedily deleted by anybody. So they can do a better job in terms of dotting the i's and crossing the t's. While this project is controversial by definition and most of our articles are subject to continuous spam and vandalism. In short, anyone who wants to improve "the system" around here is welcome. Good luck! We'll help where we can, but you should go ahead and start. --AnonEMouse 14:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Assessment thoughts

From looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Pornproject it looks like we have about 500 articles in our project. They're mostly porn stars, from the very recent time that this was Wikiproject:Porn Stars, so there are other articles on porn films or other related topics that could be added. (For example, I think History of erotic depictions would be very appropriate for the broadened project, and that, with Jenna Jameson, would be our two current WP:FAs.) Misplaced Pages:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Assessment and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment both go into great detail on Quality, but relatively little on Importance. I looked around at a few well organized projects to get an idea. Let me propose some basic Importance guidelines, and see if people agree or disagree.

Top: 1 in 100 articles. That would be 5 porn stars, and a few others. For the 5 porn stars, I recommend the top 5 at the AVN list: (Ron Jeremy, Jenna Jameson, John Holmes, Tracy Lords, Linda Lovelace) as they seem to mostly match the #Key articles for Misplaced Pages 1.0 section, above, where we were asked to list our most important articles. Outside porn stars, I'd add Pornography itself, Hugh Hefner as the most famous pornographer, maybe a few others, but not many, keeping it at the 1 in 100 ratio. These articles would be on subjects famous within pornography and indisputably notable even outside pornography. In other words, many in depth articles and/or books from both mainstream and porn sources.
High: a bit under 1 in 10 articles. That would probably be the rest of both the AVN list and the Key articles section, and a number of other. Subjects here would be famous within pornography, and at least somewhat known of even outside pornography. Example: Tera Patrick, Annabel Chong.
Med: 4 in 10 articles - Either well known inside pornography and little known outside pornography (Example: Stephanie Swift, Jim South), or somewhat known outside pornography but not famous in pornography (Example: John Wayne Bobbitt, Marylin Star).
Low: 5 in 10 articles - Not very well known inside or outside pornography. Most of the articles that barely squeaked by Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion for borderline notability would be low importance.

--AnonEMouse 19:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Biography

Hi. Some time ago, overtures were made at Template talk:WPBiography about you starting a porn stars workgroup and sharing our template. The response was positive but you had some things to sort out, and nothing came of it. We at WPBio are all in favour of sharing our infrastructure with smaller, dedicated projects, so if you want to go ahead with that idea please return to the discussion. Cheers. --kingboyk 16:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you clarify or point us to exactly what would be involved? --AnonEMouse 16:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The easiest answer would be to ask you to look at our template {{WPBiography}}, and at some of the other groups that have either joined with us (like WP:MUSICIANS) or created a taskforce underneath us (WP:FILMBIO). --kingboyk 17:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a big part of that is using article assessment, just as the above talk page section proposes - is that correct? --AnonEMouse 19:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It's mainly about sharing infrastructure, of which assessment is a large part. I'm not aware that WPBIO has ever issued "mandates" to child projects or anything like that :), so there wouldn't be significant any loss of independence.

The original thread is at Template_talk:WPBiography#pornstar-work-group. I'll leave this with you now; if you wish to talk with us you can communicate at that page :) Cheers! --kingboyk 18:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Kascha Papillon

Can someone look at Kascha's article? I took out a bunch of stuff a few days ago that looked like garbage, and bad tone, very spammy references to work with someone named Carleena coincidentally added by User:Carleena (which I think is the same person under different usernames who has made a bunch of similar changes), so I cleaned it all up, and it all just got put back. The article from my last edit is probably what it should say, so can someone have an objective look? Brjatlick 02:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I just have time for a quick look. First thing that caught my eye is that the infobox wasn't set up right. I fixed that. Next thing that catches my eye is, there is no sourcing for the article. Someone should fix that. Third thing would be to put headings into the article. Hope that helps a little. Dekkappai 02:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I should have mentioned, Carleena-- Should you decide to source that article, you might want to avoid using Google as a research tool. Apparently some editors consider the use of Google as a means of finding sources to be objectionable... At least for some articles. See: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Danielle Derek. Dekkappai 18:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There were sources cited. Whoever it was made those changes to the article also deleted the sources. That strikes me as a downright vandal. But its really hard to write anything on a porn star without using google to find the info. Here is my last unvandalized version. Brjatlick 19:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to advise looking in the revision history - nothing is ever lost (or, rather, very rarely). Use what tools you like, and a Google search can be quite useful, just as a library can be. The point is a web search shouldn't be cited by itself, any more than you can cite, say, a big library. (Oh, there's some info on this person in the Library of Congress. Really. Go and look.) --AnonEMouse 20:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I was being sarcastic about the Google searches, Brjatlick-- I tend to respond to absurd arguments (such as the one going on at that Afd) with sarcasm. Sarcasm is deprecated here, I know, but I can't help myself sometimes... I've re-added the sources. Feel free to put back any other good and sourced information that anyone else deletes without good reason. That is, indeed, a form of vandalism. Dekkappai 20:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I know the revision history is here, I just want a second opinion that going back to my last version is legit and not edit-warring, since I think this Carleena person is just spamming, but I don't know, maybe she's famous somewhere. But thanks, I am going back to that last version I did, and if the same vandalisms happen again I'll report it. Brjatlick 20:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Excaliburfilms.com links have to go

No, I'm not being a prude. First off, these are all commercial links that exist to sell things; it is comparable to linking to Amazon.com for book information, which is strongly discouraged. More importantly, by linking directly to pages we are diverting our readers from the required legal notices on the main page of the website - you know, the one that says you must be 21 to enter the site, that some of the content is illegal in certain places, that you will not redistribute the information, that you will not allow minors to view it, etc.

I am going to start by removing the information on the project page, and then removing links that are just sitting there as external links for the articles. I'll list below here the pages where Excaliburfilms.com has been used as a reference source, so that people will know these articles need re-referencing to other information. Risker 19:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The fact that a site has commercial content doesn't necessarily affect the validity of the information it presents. I count at least 20 advertisements on the New York Times front page. I agree that where we can present the same information from a less commercial source, we should, but sometimes this is the best source available. See the #Links discussion right at the top of this page. --AnonEMouse 14:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The key point is that for a significant portion of our readership, clicking on these links violates the site policy and applicable laws - and they have no way of finding out what the site policy/applicable law is, because the link provided on Misplaced Pages specifically does NOT include the statutory notices.

Finding a way to keep this site as a reference source, where people clicking the links MUST go through the main page (where the site policy is), could work. For example, the reference could say "Excalibur.com biography on (name of artist) without a direct link to the page.

I haven't removed any links that were being used as references in articles at this point. Risker 14:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the policies and laws about that are what you think they are. If they wanted to require we only link to their warning notices, they could. The web site could easily be configured not to let people in to the specific page without seeing the notice at least once. Here is an example, a link to an article on Salon.com that will make sure you see an ad at least once, but will let you come back to the page later without seeing the ad again. --AnonEMouse 16:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you actually read the site use agreement? Please do so - unfortunately I am not in a position to post it here because the site is NSFW. Risker 16:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You must be 21 years of age or older to access the Excalibur Films web site. Misrepresenting your age in order to gain access to this site in order to view Adult Material may be a violation of local, state and federal law. If you are not 21 years old, you must disconnect from our site.
Access is prohibited to the following areas:
1. Any community, locale, area, county or state where Adult Material is specifically prohibited by law. 2. Any country outside of the United States of America where Adult Material is specifically prohibited by law.
NOTE: This list is not all-inclusive. You assume the actual responsibility for knowing the community standards within your area of access. If you are not sure if your community, locale, area, county or state prohibits Adult Material, exit now and find out. Thank you.
PLEASE READ AND ELECTRONICALLY 'SIGN' THE FOLLOWING CERTIFICATION IN ORDER TO ACCESS THIS SITE.
I, the undersigned, under penalties of perjury solemnly declare and affirm the following: 1. I am an adult, being at least 21 years of age and am allowed to view Adult Material.
2. I am not accessing this material to view Adult Material in order to use against the site operator or any person whomsoever in any conceivable manner.
3. I will not redistribute this material, including Adult Material to anyone nor will I permit any minor to see this material, or any other person who might find such material personally offensive.
4. I subscribe to the principles of the First Amendment which holds that free adult Americans have the right to decide for themselves what they will read and view without governmental interference.
5. I believe that such Adult Material, including Adult Material does not offend the standard of the community in which I live.

Nothing about "I will not link to any subpage of this site" that I can see. --AnonEMouse 18:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there is nothing that says one cannot provide a link to a subpage. BUT:

3. I will not redistribute this material, including Adult Material to anyone nor will I permit any minor to see this material, or any other person who might find such material personally offensive. (emphasis mine)

We know that a significant number of Misplaced Pages readers are under 21, or minors under their local laws. By directly linking to the page, we are not only permitting, we are encouraging any reader to "click the link." (I will assume that people who are offended by pornography will exit the article without clicking links.) Again, I come back to the fact that since the subpages do not have the site terms and statutory notices popping up before one can view them, our decision to use links to those subpages abrogates the agreement not to permit access to certain identified groups. Risker 19:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a bit of a stretch, reading things that aren't written. Note that they also allow subpages to be search engine indexed individually, which is also providing direct links bypassing the warning. If you still believe you're right, send them an email and ask specifically if they object to links to individual performers' pages on their site. If they say yes, post it here, and we'll encourage editors to comply. But let's not overassume until they specify. --AnonEMouse 19:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

tattoos

Is listing a porn star's tattoos really that notable to be included on wikipedia? Look on most porn star articles, you might even see a whole section listing their tattoos. --Philip Laurence 22:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Depends. :-) In Jenna Jameson, the porn star article that reached Misplaced Pages:Featured article, we do mention her trademark "heart breaker" tattoo, but that's partly due to the fact that she got started through her boyfriend being a tattoo artist. We don't go into great detail on her others, but do give a comprehensive reference that shows off most of them. Frankly, since a porn star's physical appearance and, umm, modifications, do have a noticeable influence on their career, I wouldn't say a cited sentence or two would be out of line. --AnonEMouse 16:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for comment

A political activist who was also discovered to have been a performer in gay porn films in the 1990s, now has an article on Misplaced Pages: Matt Sanchez. There is debate on the talkpage as to how many of his videos should be listed in the article. I would appreciate any comments from members of this WikiProject, as to the best way to proceed. Thanks, El on ka 05:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Background:

Secondary sources list 38 videos with Sanchez's alter egos "Rod Majors" and "Pierre LaBranche." Some of these films are composites of scenes used in prior "original" productions. This is noted in the article on Sanchez; however, as secondary sources do not distinguish between composites and originals, it is impossible to separate them without violating Misplaced Pages's no original research rule.

Elonka has advocated a judgment test, i.e., looking through the list and evaluating from the titles which videos are original and which are not. At one point, she estimated 10 films were original, then she estimated seven or eight. Elonka has thus far ignored my queries on how she arrived at those estimates. Sanchez, for his part, has given varying answers in interviews, ranging from 12 to "a couple" of videos.

At it now stands, the article sets 1995 as a sort of cutoff point past which no new original films with Sanchez were released. There is no verification for that date, but Elonka has kept it in the article notwithstanding being told of the lack of verification. Through 1995, secondary sources show 25 videos with Majors/LaBranche (Sanchez) in the cast. My judgment tells me that as many as 20 of the 25 films made through 1995, and as many as 25 of the total 38 titles, are originals. But I acknowledge this is an idiosyncratic judgment, and that my guesstimate cannot be included in an article without violating the no original research rule.

Therefore, I believe that, since all 38 titles are verifiable through secondary sources, they should be listed at the end of the article. Also, the compilation issue, already noted in the body of the article, could be included as a note on the list. Sanchez's conflicting answers should also be noted.

As a side note, I would strongly disagree with the proposal to limit pornographic filmographies to six titles. Misplaced Pages claims to be an "encyclopedia," and as such it should be encyclopedic, i.e., complete. If someone has a career as a porn actor, then his or her complete filmography is relevant, so long as it can be verified. Anything less transforms Misplaced Pages from a reference work into a collection of feature stories.

Who is to judge which six movies to be included, and which 32 movies to be omitted? And what of someone who peformed in eight movies, as opposed to someone else who performed in 220 movies? The distinctions are highly relevant for a variety of reasons, one being that the number of titles gives a sense of the totality and nature of someone's work, and another being that a future researcher might have a specific (and currently unpredictable) interest in a particular title. To omit verified, relevant information is to undercut the very nature of an encyclopedia, and to do so only for porn actors is a direct violation of Misplaced Pages's purported "neutrality." Pwok 07:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you see the part of the earlier discussion that mentions that prolific male mainstream performers like Ron Jeremy and Tony Tedeschi have starred in thousands of films? Good luck finding an error in titles number 674 through 682; I'll bet their most dedicated fan hasn't seen them all, I'll bet they don't know them all themselves. Encyclopedic does not mean "exhaustive", just "comprehensive". We want to give a good overview - a list of the most important titles plus a count does that. --AnonEMouse 15:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the article and the way it does now, listing half a dozen in the text, seems OK. The fact that it makes bullet points for them is no so much, since redundant, and implies that these are all of them. I recommend saying that this is a representative, not a complete, listing, giving a number, and a link or reference to a site that does claim to be more complete. It doesn't seem that he is a notable performer per se, he is a notable for the fact that had been a performer. In that way, our coverage is similar to the way the news articles that cover him mention it - they list a few representative films, but not all of them. I don't think guessing whether or not they were compilations is as important as just seeing that they aren't undue weight in the article. Our local gay film expert seems to have vanished, so unfortunately we don't have as much subject matter expertise as might be hoped for. --AnonEMouse 16:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone starred in thousands of porn flicks and it could be verified, not only should all of it go into Misplaced Pages but I think the Guiness Book of World Records might be interested. But seriously, given that there are no space limitations online, I don't see a single valid reason for abridging a verified list. Stick it at the end of an article; that way, it won't interrupt narrative flow. In fact, this is exactly how Misplaced Pages has treated Charles Casper Peyton, a/k/a Jeff Stryker, in its article. To argue that his filmography impedes narrative flow would be absurd.

The only motive I can imagine for abridgment of these listings is squeamishness. Putting aside the purported "neutrality" principle that Misplaced Pages has proclaimed, there are other ways to handle that without censoring verified facts. For example, an actor's filmography could be placed on a separate Misplaced Pages page needing an extra click, along with a caution that the material is explicit. On my website about Matthew A. Sanchez, that's how I've handled this issue not just with respect to his filmography (see "Matt's Video Epics") but to other explicit material.

In the case of Sanchez, he on on the record having given conflicting information about his porn career. He now seeks to minimize his involvement and mischaracterize the videos. In his most recent comment on the subject, he said that he peformed in "a couple" porn movies. While the exact number of films cannot be verified without breaking Misplaced Pages's no-original-research rule, I would say that a quite conservative estimate places the number of original performances at no fewer than 15.

In all, he appears in the cast list of 38 movies. That's verified through secondary sourcces. Currently, the Misplaced Pages article omits both the titles and the total number, while quoting Sanchez's statement that some films are composites. In my opinion, this contributes to the misimpression that he has sought to create through minimizing his involvement in porn.

Separately, the article mischaractizes Sanchez's porn videos by saying that they "were primarily targeted towards the gay and bisexual market," when in fact they were exclusively targeted to that market. Sanchez has given conflicting statements about that issue as well, including making what appear to be false claims that he appeared in heterosexual porn.

If you step back from the individual issues and take a wider view, we have a situation where the subject of a Misplaced Pages has sought to misstate and mischaracterize the truth of his career, which in Sanchez's case is why he has a Misplaced Pages profile to begin with. Now, if the truth can't be verified that's one thing; but in this case the facts has been verified. To omit verified fact is, to me, flatly bizarre.

To say that listing a porn actor's filmography gives it "undue weight" is also bizarre; I see no one suggesting, for instance, that Katherine Hepburn's filmography be abridged. The difference between her and Traci Lord is that Hepburn acted in non-porn movies. I am a major fan of "The Philadelphia Story," but that's a personal opinion. If Misplaced Pages includes filmographies -- which it absolutely should -- then it should include all of them.

Someone could argue that Matthew Sanchez doesn't deserve a Misplaced Pages biography, and I might or might not agree. But that decision has already been made; to publish an abridged biography is simply wrong. Remember, I'm not talking about including the names of every baseball card he collected. His filmography is integral to his story, as it is integral to the story of every actor of any kind. The frequent citation of Misplaced Pages's rule that it is not an "indiscriminate collector of information" to justify the censorship of verified, relevant information is downright Orewellian.

No one can predict which title or titles will interest a future researcher, and why. If the writer of an article chooses to highlight some titles that he or she feels are emblematic or representative of the whole, that's fine as long as it's neutral and verified. But if the entire list is known and verified, an "encyclopedia" that omits the information is a collection of feature articles merely masquerading as an encyclopedia.

Finally, I would note that I say what I said about feature stories as a former journalist who wrote hundreds and hundreds of feature articles. The difference between a feature story and an encyclopedia entry is that a feature story doesn't pretend to be a reference work. It is a selection of information to suit a temporary purpose, usually to satisfy a readership's passing curiousity about someone or something in the news. It is constrained by a multitude of factors.

An encyclopedia entry is different; it should be as definitive and as complete as you can make it. One thing that the Internet can do that a traditional paper-and-ink encyclopedia cannot do is dispense with space constraints. If the day comes when someone appears in 10,000 porn videos, I see no reason not to list every last one of them, if for no other reason than that this fact alone will make that person famous and probably pretty rich, too. Pwok 00:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to include the following sentence or something like it in the article?

"The Internet Adult Film Database (IAFD) lists 36 films for Rod Majors and identifies 12 of them as being compilations."

As for number of films in filmographies, I agree that complete listings should be available. If an additional article needs to be created (or even additional articles) so be it. Information about an artist's work is not "indiscriminate information"—it is information that is an important component of any article about the artist. Whether you are comfortable with what the artist created or not. How would it be possible to pick and choose which films will be listed and still uphold Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy? Who gets to decide which films are listed? If all the films are listed, who gets to decide which ones get deleted?—75.58.44.122 12:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Pwok: a modern porn flick can take only 1 day to film.Wall Street Journal Given that any given actor probably doesn't appear in most scenes - they tend to focus more on the ladies - an average of 1 day per film for them is not an unreasonable estimate. An actor who merely comes in to work 5 days a week will appear in hundreds of films in a year; also most of these scenes later appear in compilations. Now, frankly, the work ethic of most of these performers is not the highest (as with heavy metal or punk rock musicians, drug abuse is almost assumed) so most don't work 5 days per week; but some do. That means a thousand films in a 10 or 20 year career isn't common, but not a record setter by any means.

75...: yes, I'd support giving a cited number. --AnonEMouse 13:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Please cite the Misplaced Pages core principles that say "work ethic" and "time spent per recording" are criteria for including their verified titles. Whether or not 1,000 videos or 10,000 is worthy of a world record in tangential; my mention of it was by way of a quip. I thought I made that pretty clear, but I guess not. I shall remember to be more literal in the future. And what does drug abuse have to do with anything? Misplaced Pages is allegedly "neutral." Are you suggesting that lists of works by drug abusers should be abridged for that reason?

If so, then please tell me which of Edgar Allen Poe's stories you'd nominate for deletion from his list of works. Do you think it's time to shorten the discographty for Miles Davis, a jazz musician and heroin addict? Misplaced Pages lists 112 recordings, including DVDs. I note that Miles Davis's compilations are broken out separately in his discography.

Should the recordings that Miles Davis made while addicted to heroin, or while his "work ethic" didn't otherwise meet your standards, be deleted from Misplaced Pages's list? And what about other musicians and artists? Delete their works made when they were thought (or even verified) to be using drugs illegally? How about if the drug use was legal but merely irresponsible, as when Janis Joplin swigged from a bottle of Wild Turkey while performing? Should the live recording of that perforance be deleled from the list of the titles of her works? I searched the Misplaced Pages principles and didn't find one related to drug abused. Maybe I overlooked it; please point me there so I may behold it in its full glory.

No, I think the real problem on Misplaced Pages is squeamishness about pornography. Some people have a major problem with listing titles like, "Squirt Me, Mister: The Cock Chronicles." I understand and to a degree sympathize, which is why I'd be all in favor of a warning of explicit language and an extra click. But deleting verified titles directly contradicts Misplaced Pages's so-called "neutrality" pillar; it is censorship, plain and simple. Censorship is something that Misplaced Pages alleges that it does not engage in. Principles (or so-called "pillars") are tested when they are difficult to live by, not when compliance comes easy.

When it comes to limiting a pornographic filmography to a subset of verified titles, there is no explanation other than squeamishness, and its handmaiden censorship, that holds up to even casual scrutiny. Pwok 00:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

with all due respect

No offense but....the concept a project to improve pornography pages made me giggle. Fusion7 17:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That's nice. Iamcuriousblue 17:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Sexual orientation

Is there any kind of policy about the information given about a porn actor or actresses sexual orientation, particularly in the Template:Female adult bio infobox or in the Categories list at the bottom of the article. There seems to be a tendency to label every female adult performer as "bisexual" simply because they do both m/f and f/f scenes. This doesn't necessarily reflect a real-life sexual preference, though. I'm also highly mistrustful of porn-industry interviews where women describe themselves as "bisexual", which just comes across as PR to me. (I feel similarly about the automatic description of gay male porn industry stars as "gay". In real life, they might be bi or even simply "gay for pay".) It seems to me that the default should be not to list sexual preference at all unless there's a citable source for a porn star describing themself as having that preference, and that that reference should be something more substantial than an interview in Hustler. Opinions? Iamcuriousblue 17:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone's sexual orientation is unverifiable, but their sexual behavior is verifiable. To quote Richard Nixon: "Watch what we do, not what we say." Pwok 05:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

No, actually somebody's sexual orientation is verifiable if they've made public statements as to what they're actual sexual orintation is. (To which I would add, in a forum where they're not expected to give stock answers, such as a lot of the porn media.) Otherwise, I don't think statements about the sexual orientation of a porn actor is at all relevant. And what does the statement even tell us about porn actresses, anyway? Most of them have sex with both men and women on camera. Saying an actress is "bisexual" doesn't tell you much. Plus, its inaccurate, implying that she's bisexual in everyday life, which barring verifiable statements.

Actually, what I propose is that "orientation" should be replaced by "genres". Genres could include multiple entries and include boy-girl, girl-girl, BDSM, etc. – not an exhaustive list, of course, but simply what an actress "specializes" in. So for Justine Joli, it would read "genres = girl-girl, BDSM". That's far more relevant information about her as a porn actress, IMO. Iamcuriousblue 16:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Their performance genres should at least be listed in addition to their orientation. I agree that PR has a lot to do with what a porn performer might say. Joie de Vivre 16:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Rename this project "Misplaced Pages censorship of pornographic filmographies"

When factual, verified, relevant information is excluded from an article, it is censorship as defined by Webster's Dictionary. The only question to ponder here is whether a porn actor's complete filmography is relevant. Its relevance is self-evident; without the acting, the individual wouldn't have a Misplaced Pages article to begin with. As long as the titles are verified through the usual procedures, there is no logical reason to omit them from an article other than to exercise censorship.

I recognize that people might be squeamish about, say, Matthew Sanchez's "Tijuana Toilet Tramps," a film that we can reasonably presume was not a documentary about the pressing issue of undocumented immigration. Rather than omit titles, they should be listed in a separate section, as they are with, say, Katherine Hepburn, an actor in non-porn films. To answer the squeamishness issue, I'd suggest that the listings be handled in such a way as to require an additional click, along with a notice that the forthcoming material could be objectionable to some readers.

The alternative is for Misplaced Pages to make an exception to its censorship policy. I would oppose doing that, but if Misplaced Pages does make an exception I urge in the strongest possible terms that Misplaced Pages be honest about what it's doing and not parade any euphemisms (such as "editorial self-restraint" or "lack of notability" or "undue weight") in front of readers or otherwise twist the definitions of words. Omitting relevant, verified facts is censorship, plain and simple. If Misplaced Pages is going to engage in censorship, have the dignity not to lie to people about that. Pwok 23:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Give me a break! The fact that complete filmographies are not listed has nothing to do with censorship or squeamishness. It has everything to do with the fact that Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Misplaced Pages doesn't list complete filmographies for non-porn actors and filmmakers either. Instead, links are provided to IMDB, IAFD, EGAFD, etc, where readers can go and find full filmographies. That's Misplaced Pages policy and it makes perfect sense, IMO. Iamcuriousblue 15:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, what Icb wrote. Katharine Hepburn is a four-time Academy Award-winning actress, considered by some the greatest American actress of all time. Her filmography stretches over 60 years. It is darn likely that the least of the films she has been in has been seen by more people than the sum of all the people that have seen any of the films of Matt Sanchez. He is no Katharine Hepburn. This has nothing to do with censoring film titles, Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not censored - if a notable film had an obscene title, we'd write it. In fact, I made a pornographic filmography article myself Jenna Jameson chronology of performances, when our articl on Jenna Jameson got too long even when restricted to listing solely the award-winning films (she's won a lot of awards). When Matt Sanchez's films get that kind of coverage, feel free to list them all in his or a separate article. This isn't a judgment on quality or content, solely on the notice each film has gotten. --AnonEMouse 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It is simply not true that complete filmographies aren't listed for other actors. Katherine Hepburn is an apt example. I have seen no proposal to limit her filmography to six. Miles Davis, a jazz performer, has 112 titles listed in his biography. I see no Misplaced Pages "project" to limit the listings of titles of musicians. The only "project" is to censor the lists of titles of porn actors. As for "notability," by Misplaced Pages's own "standard" it does not apply to the contents of articles, only to whether a person is notable enough to have an article.

To wit: "Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Misplaced Pages as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other guidelines such as those on using reliable sources and on handling trivia. The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines."

So please stop misrepresenting "notability." You and others who support censorship of porn filmographies because some videos aren't notable are twisting the purported "notability" standard.

My comments about this issue are not limited to Matt Sanchez's videos. They apply to all films by all porn actors. For instance, films by Charles Peyton, a/k/a "Jeff Stryker," probably generated more sales than films by Katherine Hepburn, yet his filmography would be limited to six titles under this proposed censorship policy. Whether or not someone is "another Katherine Hepburn" is irrelevant. Either Misplaced Pages honors its purported "pillars" and "principles," or they are shams. I tend to think they are shams, myself.

By the way, I am not doctrinaire about censorship. I'd defend it on occasion. It would be a rare occasion, but my own view is not absolute. One thing I would not do, however, is lie about the issue as Misplaced Pages has done. Pwok 01:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

New source for free images

I just spotted some sets from the AEE and AVN Awards 2004 and 2006 on Flickr that are licensed as CC-BY-SA-2.0, to be found here (last four sets, 500+ pictures altogether). The problem is that almost all of them don't identify who these people are, so you have to verify the identities before uploading. Although the technical quality varies, some images might be useful nonetheless. I have already uploaded a new picture of Jenna Jameson (to Commons) and saw several of Ron Jeremy, Buck Adams, Amber Lynn, Nina Hartley and others. You may be able to identify more persons that I do. Regards --Rosenzweig 22:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Categories:

Links

Mixed race exotic porn stars

Acceptable sources of fair use photos

Key articles for Misplaced Pages 1.0

Anon E Mouse's list

Assistance requested in starting a page

Partial Filmography

Ban pay links?

Adult pornstar mall

Misplaced Pages 1.0 prep work

Time to weigh in on the Cover Issue

List of HIV-positive people

Invitation

Fair Use publicity photos

More link talk

Non Contributors

How to use the Male adult bio template

Partial filmographies redux

Interesting Discovery

Check out, please

Ongoing deletion of Japanese model articles/lists

an uniform epithet

Dating policy

AVN Awards nomination and selection procedure?

Gay vs. Straight

Speedy deletes

AFDs underway

AVN links

Misplaced Pages:Notability (pornographic actors) as notability guideline

J. Bruce Howie photos

Project Directory

Implementation

DVD Covers

MySpace

Filmographies, round three

Stablepedia

21Sextury Productions

Anna?

Is this appropriate?

Misplaced Pages Day Awards

Female adult bio infobox restructure?

Chronology of adult videos in Japan

WikiProject Biography

Deletion list?

Request for Comment: Girl-girl

Proposal: WikiProject Pornography

This project should be renamed

Could someone change this mistake?

Collaborations?

WikiProject Pornography

Lukas Ridgeston

Inappropriate to post actors real names without permission

Any Spanish speakers?

Template and Assessment Project

Assessment thoughts

Excaliburfilms.com links have to go

tattoos

Request for comment

with all due respect

Sexual orientation

Rename this project "Misplaced Pages censorship of pornographic filmographies"

New source for free images