Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MacRusgail (talk | contribs) at 16:58, 20 June 2007 (→Act of Union). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Assorted links for reference purposes

• Waitangi Tribunal - principles.

Linked page fault?

The linked page contains some JavaScript that replaces the page with some kind of advertisement if one doesn't have a certain plugin installed. It's rather annoying. (To read the treaty, disable scripting in your browser.) --Brion 06:48 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

Treaty of Waitangi browser crash

Moved from Misplaced Pages:Village pump on Thursday, July 10th, 02003.

The Treaty of Waitangi article crashes my browser! (Mozilla 1.4, Linux). This must be a browser bug of course, but is there anything illegal in the article? Maybe it's the image? 81.86.233.209 07:17 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, it's the image: http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=image:treatyofwaitangi.jpg

In another tool I get a warning: Corrupt JPEG data: premature end of data segment 81.86.233.209 07:35 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I fixed Mozilla by recompiling with different options. The precompiled versions should be OK 81.86.233.209 18:29 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Controversial material - links

The description of the Littlewood Treaty link should reflect the NPOV policy, even though the website it points to is not NPOV. I think "argument" or even "claims" is a fairer representation of the Littlewood website than "evidence". It's not controversial that there are similarities between the Littlewood text and the official Maori version, however, it is not widely accepted as to why they are similar. The site argues that the Treaty is a fraud proven by the Littlewood document - that's definitely controversial. Tirana 09:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've also moved the section on the "grievance industry" to the Claims section, as it relates primarily to Treaty claims rather than the Treaty today. I don't think the newspaper article links are particularly helpful, as either examples of what the original author intended or as general resources - perhaps a political party's website on its Treaty policy might be an alternative as a source for the issues. I've taken reference to the Lake Taupo issue out of the Treaty of Waitangi article because it's nothing to do with Treaty claims or rights. It's to do with what the rights of the owner of the lakebed (Ngati Tuwharetoa, thanks to a government grant in 1992) are to restrict use of the space above it, under general law. Instead I've summarised the issues of debate in what I hope is a more NPOV tone. Tirana 05:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Principles of Treaty of Waitangi were largely ignored?

That is more opinionated, because no source says that it is "largely ignored". --inky 08:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's wrong to say that "no source" says so - I've seen some that do, but to include references along those lines and refer to specific violations. --MacRusgail 19:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Treaty of Waitangi Audio Visual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 of 7

A result of a personal project that was started in 2005 while a student at Waikato University in the School and Māori and Pacific Development and a student in Te Wananga o Aotearoa as a year one and two Ata Reo student. The process started with a programme that turns text into audio. First the book was scanned in to the computer and optical character recognition (OCR) was used to ready the text for it to be turned into MP3 files. These files in audio form were loaded into Movie maker (a free programme found in the start menue under accessory in the microsoft opperating system.) Note the text to audio programme was not trained to pronounce Māori words and greatly weakens this word as it needs to be reworked with better pronunciation. The pictures were scanned into the computer next and imported into movie maker and lined up to match the audio visual commentary. Text was added to the beginning and end of the audio visual segments and saved as one file. This file was not used for 12 months until www.youtube.com was read about on a BBC news artical. The file was broken up into 7 segments of approx. ten minutes long and words were added to beginning and end. A group was started in a person page in Youtube and the seven video's were uploaded on to that site. TPK was informed of the work at this stage and though was given to contact the Turnbull library for copy right matters to do with the images. This work is in progress and has taken another step today now that this link to wikipedia has been made. Next the link between youtube and wikipedia was made on 28 October 2006 after reading http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia. The idea to develope the use of the process outlined to help in the wikipedia needed an example of it worked in principle and so linking off the wikipedia page on Treaty of Waitangi become a great way to work both together as a scientific project. I have seen the Treaty of Waitangi Road show in Rotorua, a truck that travels New Zealand and stops in parks and sports grounds and unloads an audio visual presentation display. The book that I used for my project is featured in the hand outs of presentation. As a part treasurer of my local Kohanga Reo I am passionate to see the languge of Māori developed as the offical mother tounge of Aotearoa. I have offered this project as part of this. At a recent launch of a Te Reo strategy by the Iwi Raukawa I took a video of the launch and it was after that night that I put my work onto youtube. The process took both Saturday and Sunday but I feel it was in the true spirit of what was being asked and offered by Raukawa. It was a labour of love. Now this process has moved one step further along now that the world can read and hear the story of the greatest navigating people's on the planet which is on a scientific level with the apolo missions of NASA. If you have any questions please email me on young.roderick@gmail.com.RoddyYoung 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I think a link to the text might be more useful than to a text-to-speech rendering. The value of the spoken Misplaced Pages is that it provides a high quality human rendering of articles, which may be useful for blind users' of Misplaced Pages, or for people who want to practice listening to spoken English. Blind users already have text to speech software available, and it's much more efficient for them to use their own software with text than to download much larger video/audio files.- gadfium 01:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

If there was ever a place to give some voice to text it is here. To take off that material and mute it makes me feel frustrated. The power of delete is to easly used in wikipedia. Do you know I sent people to this site and because of your delete you have preventing them interacting. Yes I would have loved to had a very good reader spell out the text but that will come. I am going to revert your doings by moving them to a site that they refer to and then link of this site. Thank you for your constructive criticism. Blind people will have to follow that link now to hear anything.RoddyYoung 09:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The changes have been made. I am supprised that any different presentation of the official information could be seen as not up to standard. I have reposted the videos on http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia#Audio_Visual_links The irony is if the links are removed on the Treaty of Waitangi also then where would be a home for this in wikipedia? I ask that you revert back so the links are within the Treaty of Waitangi page please.RoddyYoung 10:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have the copyright to the work in question? If not, then the material is in breach of copyright, and we do not knowingly link to breaches of copyright. If you do have the copyright, then linking to the text and pictures would be about one hundred times more useful than linking to a robotic voice reading the text. Everyone would benefit, including blind people who would have much lower bandwidth requirements to download the material and would hear much the same result.- gadfium 18:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You make good points, both of them, and both questions are being addressed as I write this. The blind would not see the pictures and so using text to speech software on a personal computer from a download of the .rtf or .doc file would give the same voice recognition. I will look at gutenburg to see if I can find the text. The deaf also would see the pictures and be able to read the text from the book but are barred due to the limits of books getting to remote parts of the planet for cost effective reasons but deaf would get a much better comprehension of a book than looking at a montage of images and not being able to hear the words. However 98 percent of people would listen to a tv ad but would not read an article after the headlines in a news paper. The reason from making the video book was to let a lecturer who is involved in research and education to show the material to a class of hundereds and let individuals create the synergy from the meanings for historical fact and go on to research in new areas after gaining a new insight to a true history of a nation. I am using this material for an educative purpose in a non commerical way. When I have more information for you I will post it. RoddyYoung 18:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The information in the video's is feely online at http://www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz/ here You will fine it in pdf format no .rtf or .doc format RoddyYoung 19:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that text to speech software works with PDF files. I don't see how talking about deaf people helps your case, as deaf people will find the PDF files much more useful that the text to speech version. People at remote parts of the planet will also find the PDF files more useful, because they are a much smaller download that the video. While it is true that many people will listen rather than read, I suspect that very few will listen to a robotic voice by preference.

You have not addressed the copyright question, except that you say earlier that "though was given to contact the Turnbull library for copy right matters to do with the images". Does this mean that you do not currently have written permission to distribute the material?- gadfium 19:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Gadfium. I have worked with blind web users in the past, and most prefer to control the speed and sound of the text to speech software. Advanced blind users will often listen at 600 words per minute or more. At that speed, I can't make heads or tails out of it. Its all about choice. A PDF offers users the choice to listen to it their way, or read it, all in one simple easy to use file. --Roue2 20:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with pdf on my computer and so can not access them at present but I am part of the 100 million people who down load daily youtube video's with a broad band connection. Google paid $US1,650,000,000.00 to purchase www.youtube.com. I also have worked with blind people and the use of text to speech software has a copyright exeption for the use of the blind and disabled. I too can read at 600 word per minute and faster with this software after 4 months practice and can read a book cover to cover in 3.5 hours. It is great for university work. Very few students read all the required text in a course but doing so makes comprehension better. Oral tradition means that the use of text to speech software opens up the ability to process information to the masses that was limited to a few. Many people have access to only broad cast Audio visual and no choice of content or adds. Many children also have to watch adds and material that is suductive by not very educational or relevent to their cultural background. Youtube gives video on demand and a globle reach. Have you looked at your official site on the first external link on this page. I challenge you to produce the equivilent copyright paper work that is being asked for too. My paper work is in the pipe line.RoddyYoung 09:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that a .govt.nz site is in copyright breach, or do you mean some other external link? At any rate, until you have your paper work, I'll remove the links. When and if you get copyright permission, I'll still oppose the link since the PDF is a far superior format.- gadfium 19:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

My understanding of copyright law around educational uses says that what has been produced is fine. I can not speak on the govt.nz has down with copyright but I do invite anyone to ask them for their paperwork and post it here. If their work is educational too then leave it on. I understand you point. That is what makes wikipedia great. I also like youtube because it limits deleters of you own work. Have a nice day.RoddyYoung 09:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Recent and future edits

Made a few changes to the 'meaning and interpretation' section. There is quite a bit of debate over whether 'mana' would have been an appropriate translation of 'kawanatanga'. I don't feel the page should simply say that it would have been appropriate. I will footnote the scholars mentioned once I get back to work in the new year. I also added a bit about the translation of the pre-emption clause. As the page indicates, this was fairly important and a note about its translation was needed.

In the 'effect of the Treaty' I added a section reflecting the fact that the Treaty was not ignored straight away, and made a minor correction to the section on the Treaty in the courts. (the quote about it being a 'device to amuse savages' was from the NZ Company, not a court judgement). Also, the Treaty regained Pakeha attention after Bledisloe bought the Treaty house; by 1940 its profile had already been raised although obviously the centennary raised it further.

In general this page is a good resource for schoolkids etc who are researching the Treaty, and for the generally interested. I think it does need expanding in some areas though:

- More is needed on the Treaty in the courts. The events of the late 1980s are dealt with well but a concise summary of important cases before that is probably needed.

- There is virtually nothing on how Maori have regarded the Treaty, except a very brief bit on protest. It is a pity there is no page on the Maori protest movement that could be linked to from here... any volunteers?

-Mention of Waitangi Day should be made as there is a decent page on it.

I should have read the page more carefully. Perhaps the commemoration bit should be elsewhere, as the 'signing of the Treaty' section is not really the place you would expect to find it, at least in my opinion. I have added a link in the section to the 'Treaty house' page and corrected the date of the first Waitangi Day (see the Waitangi Day page for the reason why).--Helenalex 08:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The danger of course is that the page could get too large and visitors could easily be overwhelmed and put off. A better initial summary would help counter this. Currently it focusses a bit too much on the translation issues. While this is obviously very important it is dealt with in the 'meaning and interpretation' section. Perhaps it would be better to replace that paragraph with a brief history of the Treaty's place in NZ history (focus for Maori greivances, ignored by the courts and parliament except in lip service terms until the 1970s, is a major focus of Maori protest, given recognition in the 1980s, but still subject of major debate and controversy).

I don't want to make major changes without some kind of consensus... what do people think? --Helenalex 00:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been a week and no-one has said anything, so I rewrote the intro. --Helenalex 11:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Act of Union

Why is there a link to the 1707 Act of Union on this page? It's not as if the Treaty of Waitangi and the Union Treaty are the only two treaties ever to be broken. We could include every other broken treaty ever, but this would quadruple the size of the page. If there are no objections within the next week or so, I will remove the link. --Helenalex 05:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The link is not relevant to this article.-gadfium 07:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Totally relevant. The Brits have been making bogus treaties for years. Waitangi is one. The Act of Union between Scotland and England is another. Both were signed in good faith by the other party, and both were violated almost in their entireity by England. Both should be seen and compared in an international context, instead of in isolation, because they mark a trend. Both are more or less instruments of annexation, dressed up as equal partnerships. --MacRusgail 16:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Not relevant. One has to look at it in the wider context of Euorpean expansion worldwide. There is evidence to suggest that the British did go into Treaty negotiations with Maori in good faith and with good intentions (to protect Maori from dodgy private land dealings as had happened in North America 40-50 years or so prior to the signing of the Treaty... in fact Britain, in trying to protect Native Americans from European land grabs in North America had angered the US government to the point where the US declared war on Britain in 1812 - Britain was already at war with France) as well as a attempt to gain control of New Zealand before the French got there. I won't dispute that the Treaty was violated following the signing, however that has more to do with unprincipled, power-hungry, materialistic and mana-less individuals than any particular nation.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.144.32.165 (talk • contribs)

So you think the Treaty of Waitangi was a completely isolated incident, without historical precedent in British law and elsewhere, was completely original and should be seen in total isolation then? --MacRusgail 16:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages inconsistency?

WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages states that there is an audiovisual section "using text-to-voice and moviemaker software and also a web provider" (to quote). Where has it gone? -HuBmaN!!!! 16:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

See above under #Treaty of Waitangi Audio Visual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 of 7 The links were removed for copyright reasons.-gadfium 18:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Order of page

I'm wondering of the legal section should be moved forward, so that it comes before the principles and Treaty claims sections. A lot of the content of those two sections works better if the reader already knows about the legal stuff, I think.

My, this Misplaced Pages editing is addictive, isn't it? --Helenalex 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The background information and subsequent history should come first, then the legal issues, then claims and application information. --Lholden 22:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This seems to work better, although it does break the flow which previously existed between 'effect of the Treaty' and 'Treaty claims'. I have slightly altered the end of 'effect' so that it is not obviously pointing at the claims section. It is still a little bit awkward but I think the claims section makes more sense if the reader already knows about the Treaty's legal standing or lack thereof. --Helenalex 01:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Many Maori/Many Pakeha

I think it's fair to characterise the debate around it in more or less those terms, but we should use verifiable info and provide cites for it, rather than the "many" weaselword. Calls from Maori in the 70s/80s for the Crown put right its breaches of the Treaty (cite Nga Tamatoa or Ranginui Walker or someone) were answered by the Crown first establishing the Waitangi Tribunal to decide on breaches of the Treaty, and then the Crown conceding that it had in many cases breached it and apologising for it (ref to settlements?). Some pakeha considered x about it (cite, maybe hansard from TOW amendment act), which flared into public debate in 2004 etc. Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements#Criticisms has some examples. There's a values survey somewhere that has some other verifiable info. --Tirana 00:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that maybe the New Zealand Election Study or the Study of Values. I think I've got the statistics saved somewhere. --Lholden 00:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I have sources on this, but they're mostly archival. What's the story with archival sources? they are mostly in the National Archives in Wellington, so they are accessible to the general public, but not in the way that a book or newspaper is. --Helenalex 03:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure if I entirely understand what archival sources are. There isn't a problem that they're not as accessible as a book. If they are primary sources, e.g. the diary of a historical figure, then they can be used only with caution. Hansard would be a primary source, but I would expect it to be relatively easily available. WP:RS gives the rules for use of such materials.-gadfium 05:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think I can probably get away with it. They are primary sources (ie letters to and from govt ministers, internal memos etc) but the info I would be getting is basically descriptive, ie 'such-and-such person said that...' It would be reporting of opinion rather than fact.

For future reference, archival sources are sources found in archives, ie original unpublished papers, and would include things like letters, diaries, memos, internal reports and so forth. --Helenalex 22:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Looking at this again, Tirana appears to be referring to the final paragraph of the 'Treaty claims' section, which has the only example I can find of vague 'some people thought x' type language. My references aren't that recent, but there should still be news reports online somewhere. If this isn't what you're talking about, Tirana, could you indicate specifically what you are refering to? If you're saying that there needs to be more info on the debate, feel free to add this, and I will try and find appropriate references where I can. --Helenalex 22:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

How about some excerpts from the Herald's Sharing a Country feature in early 2004? There was an article I can't find that outlined some vox pops from both Maori and Pakeha. (whoops, forgot to sign that) --Tirana 00:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

ka nui te pai (excellent)

Great work on Treaty of Waitangi. Kia kaha koutou (Keep up the good work). Kahuroa 18:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)