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Archives

Archive 1: April 1, 2006 - Apr. 4, 2007 Archive 2: April 4, 2007- May 16, 2007 Archive 3:May 16, 2007-May 22, 2007 Archive 4:May 22, 2007-June 7, 2007 Archive 5:June 7, 2007-June 15, 2007

Discussions from June 15, 2007 to the present. Please see archives for earlier discussions

Archives

To avoid excessive length I did some archiving. See Archive 4:May 22, 2007-June 7, 2007 and Archive 5:June 7, 2007-June 15, 2007 if you wish information on recent mediations and debates.--T. Anthony 23:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediator Stepping Out

I can no longer mediate this case, and this is why: while I'm not sure if I agree with it or not (I still have no opinion regarding whether I think former converts should be included) there is a very clear consensus here. Cleo and Bus stop, you two are indeed very loud, but talking a lot does not mean that there are any more of you. The majority of users (and it's a very clear majority) seem to feel that former converts should be included. Consensus exists and etiquette would dictate that you end this. I mean, come on, how many archives is this talk page going to occupy? This page is a list. Lists aren't even supposed to exist at Misplaced Pages, according to WP:NOT. We're all devoting too much time to it.

The bottom line is this: consensus exists, for better or worse, to include former Christians on this list, so long as they converted to Christianity. This is not a pro-Christian activity. This does not in any way affect anything on this list. There is a small minority, primarily consisting of Cleo and Bus stop, who disagree with this. Their reasons are valid, but they are only two. Everyone has been rude, but these two have shirked all attempts at coming to a compromise, twisted other users' words in very obvious ways, and been outwardly rude to everyone else involved. It would be ridiculous to continue this any longer. I'm going to close the MedCab case- not every case can come to an amicable conclusion.

I recommend the following: just about everyone seems to agree that it doesn't harm us to include former Christians on this list, so long as they're noted as such. I suggest creating a section called "Former Christians Who Were Converts," or something like that. Put the contentious people there. Hopefully, those who disagree will try to build a consensus the other way on this page. If they decide to start a wheel war instead, you know how to reach an administrator.

Alternatively, you could move on to the Mediation Committee. Either way, I can't see any way to come to a conclusion that's acceptable to Cleo and Bus stop without defying consensus, so it's pretty much impossible to continue to mediate.

By the way, my "judgement" was a clear interpretation of policy. If a mediator isn't allowed to do that, what are we allowed to do? --Moralis (talk) 07:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I was an objector to including former converts, but I'm willing to yield on the matter. I'd like to see a formal vote on Cleo's one idea. If that fails to get a simple majority I think we should allow the former converts in to end the stalemate. (Yes I know Misplaced Pages isn't a democracy, but I think we need to end the stalemate and a 2/3 reasoned majority either way isn't likely to happen) And I'm sorry if this has been rough on you. Although I understand some of where Cleo's coming from I think she might've gotten a bit too critical of you.--T. Anthony 07:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe I was "hard on" the mediator or his/her EGO. All I did was quote the MedCab page in response to the judgement Moralis issued, which seemed to run contrary to that group's policy. Interpretation can be a very subjective thing and it doesn't seem that anyone agreed to any binding policy interpretations by the mediator. In addition, I really don't see how six editors for inclusion of Non-Christians vs. six editors against inclusion of Non-Christians represents a clear cut consensus. The mediator has stated that there is "a very clear majority" - I ask the mediator to, please, list the names of editors that constitute the "clear cut" majority he/she cites. I will also go on record as saying that the mediator's remark that : "Cleo and Bus stop, you two are indeed very loud, but talking a lot does not mean that there are any more of you." borders on a lack of civility and truly is not supported by the contribution history to this discussion. In recent days, User:Bus stop has made very few contributions to the discussion. The page would seem to be dominated by editors arguing on one side of the debate - that does not mean, however, that there are any more of them. "Behold! My signature..." Cleo123 08:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It struck me as a bit snarky at the time and still kind of does. The other thing is that whenever this was put to a vote the "keep them in" side did clearly win out. The side for removing them has made comments that could seem uncertain, me included, so I could see believing there is a clear concensus for keeping even if I think that's overstating it.--T. Anthony 09:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think a vote over that matter is a good idea. I'm not too sure about the vote ratio proposal, though; although it seems altogether reasonable. Anyway, I thank Moralis for his involvement.--C.Logan 07:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Didn't the two recent polls here and here at least strongly suggest an existing consensus? The further discussion seems to have indicated that there is indeed a small minority that hold to the position that Bob Dylan's Conversion has not been adequately demonstrated. In the bigger picture, the principle question of whether or not we should list former converts has been more contested, but only a couple of editors have remained inflexible on this point. There seems to be a consensus supporting and/or willing to accept the compromise that sections out the former converts and explains their status. If you also weigh the comments of the two moderators who have attempted to settle this, but who were driven away exasperated by the unwillingness of a couple of editors to concede on even the clearest points, then the picture of an established consensus is revealed. Will a new vote/poll/whatever somehow turn out radically different from the last one? Will it actually convince anyone who isn't already convinced?

I'm going to boldly follow Moralis' advice. I'll place Mr. Dylan in the section for former converts, and ask that those who would like to change this, or to remove the section, or to split it out as a separate article, should first attempt to demonstrate a consensus for their position here. If anyone knows of other suitable "former converts," or people whose latest status is indeterminate, go ahead and add them in that section, and add any reasonable explanatory notes so that all the information we have is fairly presented. zadignose 09:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It's debatable that including former converts got a two-thirds majority, which is standard. It might look like a 6-2 vote, but that's because I crossed mine out because I figured the issue was over. I have uncrossed it now. You could say "that's still 6-3", but one of the agree votes had no content and those kinds of votes can be discarded. I do want this debate to end, but I'd hoped we could try one last attempt to make it end with some kind of resolution. I know you feel that's impossible, and maybe it is, but I'm not saying "a happy resolution" just a tolerable one. Unilateral action by the side that wants to include Formers is not what I had in mind. Would it have been different if a member of the "exclude formers" camp, like the rather quiet Sefringle, had put Dylan back? Yes because that would shift the concensus toward "including them."--T. Anthony 11:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused as to why you believe Ttiotsw's vote can be discarded, as he's been pretty vocal about his position in this discussion (and it seems he originally argued for exclusion, and later changed his mind). I'm pretty sure that vote exclusion logic should only apply when new names happen to show up in the votes. I'm not sure if the current re-addition is a problem or not- it seems a decision has been made on the part of the moderator, so we have a position we should gravitate towards. Of course, we should still consider other possibilities and continue to compromise until we're all amicable enough to share a cherry soda at a drive-in film.--C.Logan 11:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

He is one of the few to be editing as long as me here. Still I was just going by how votes are counted at other places I've been at WP.--T. Anthony 11:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't forget in addition to all the folks who voted, two different mediators from MedCab reached basically similar conclusions. T. Anthony I've found you to be a rational and reasonable representative from the anti-inclusion camp, however I must think it should also be becoming apparent to you Cleo123 and Bus Stop don't seem particularly interested in building consensus (in fact I have a suspicion Cleo123 believes and knows full well Dylan converted, judging from the length of effort she goes to manufacture/synthesize sources while quoting ones that stated Dylan "returned" to Judaism) and just want to "win" the debate by getting Dylan off the list. I also don't like unilateral actions by either side, however there's a strong reason to first get Dylan back on the list: I'm starting to think a couple anti-inclusion editors may be trying to prevent consensus on purpose, because as long as Dylan stays off the list while the discussion drags on, they deem that a working filibustering tactic, and they think they win something and it's time to break out the Merlot and "LOL" etc: . The mediator summed it perfectly: "Everyone has been rude, but these two have shirked all attempts at coming to a compromise, twisted other users' words in very obvious ways, and been outwardly rude to everyone else involved" I can only speak for myself but I suspect virtually all parties in the pro-inclusion camp would be happy to carry on the discussion with you, Wfaxon and all and whoever else that ever voiced a concern about inclusion and have been civil and reasonable; but any action to involve two disruptive editors here who have a history of tag-teamming like this (see Michael Richards page talk archives for instance) is counter-productive to building consensus--consensus is the last thing they want as long while Dylan remains off the list. We've just wasted another week only to have them reject the results of mediation again, that is ludicrous. Tendancer 11:56, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I just want one last shot at some kind of vote or proposal. If it becomes clear the anti-inclusion camp loses then I will actually go against it/them for the sake of resolution. I don't think it's entirely clear yet. If they do lose and still can't accept it, and continue to take Dylan out, I'll support putting them on some kind of block from editing this article. Okay? I just think this needs a clearer "that's it, the end" for both sides.--T. Anthony 05:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Well done...that seems to me to be the most suitable conclusion to this controvesy. Teapotgeorge 10:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. I was hoping for something to finalize whatever decision. Maybe not another vote, but some sense of acceptance. A gracenote of some kind. Instead zadignose has essentially just given us "we're right, you're wrong, suck it up losers." We never even really had a discussion that wasn't Dylan-centric or Dylanelicious or Dylantastic.--T. Anthony 11:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Formers: The final battle, the Next day

I kind of don't think I have the power to do this, but this is a proposal I'm putting to a vote. Either way it ends, when it ends, I intend to end my involvement in the discussion. Due to the way I'm presenting it I should mention I count myself as a supporter of the proposal. As the proposer though I will be uninvolved in any discussion in this section.--T. Anthony 11:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Former converts should be moved to a new list that concerns temporary converts to Christianity

• Oppose As far as I can see that is just a way to placate Bus Stop and let them have their own way in removing Dylan from the list. We should not try and go to such ridiculous lengths to placate the wishes of a tiny minority of users who clearly have an unreasonable obsession. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 11:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Arranging such an idea as a separate article is not viable. The parameters are a bit too specific, and it is extremely unlikely that such a list will ever grow beyond 5-10 entries. Such an article would (doubtless) be deleted for the same reasons some users here find such information unnecessary to list even here. Such specifics would be better suited as a subsection within this article, and it may also be a good idea to list this subsection both here and on the List of notable former Christians as well. I'm not entirely sure what argument exists that would lead one to prefer a separate article over a subsection, but it would seem that such a suggestion ultimately stems from a few editors' determined position to remove an individual from a list, even when the majority of editors find his inclusion relevant. I believe that such a concept works as a section, but not as an article.--C.Logan 11:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - only on the basis that creating such a list, and creating parameters for such a list, seem to me to probably at least at some point involve original research. Specifically, unless the subject has clearly and explicitly indicated that s/he no longer holds Christian beliefs (and it should be noted the main bone of contention, Bob Dylan, has never apparently made such a statement) it seems to me to be original research to indicate that he is no longer a Christian. Also, it could reasonably be argued that anyone whose religious beliefs are a syncretion of Christianity and something else could be still, technically, called a Christian, not a "former" Christian. We would thus, I think, have to prove that the subject's current beliefs specifically and pointedly include no beliefs which would clearly qualify as specifically Christian. Proving a negative like that is always problematic, as no one can ever know everything about anything. It is also true that the main bone of contention, Dylan, has recently seemingly expressed belief in New Testament scriptures, so it could be argued that he might not qualify for such a list even if it were created. I could see groupings within existing lists, but, with all respect to T. Anthony, I personally think any attempt to create a separate list stands a very good chance of creating a discussion which could at least potentially dwarf this one in both heat and length. John Carter 14:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. The section is not big enough for its own article. Nick Graves 15:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Totally unnecessary and would weaken this article. --JJay 16:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. I've tried to think a way to make this work, but I can't see how it would be better than a section within this article. Only when the section develops into something we can see as a viable article of its own, and we can find a way to properly title it and set out its terms, could it be possible to spin this section off into a free standing article. I'll also comment below, but let me me point out that we should not decide when to spin off a separate article based on an arbitrary number of entries, but rather should only do it when it becomes apparent that it would actually work as an article, and stand up against an AfD. zadignose 02:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Approval for alternative proposals

I thank T. Anthony for making his proposal. I believe we need to find the solution that is acceptable to the greatest number of editors here. I also believe that finding that solution is best done using the approval voting method, rather than a simple support/oppose. I have listed a number of options below. Please sign your name under each option that you find acceptable. In other words, even if an option isn't your favorite, you are indicating that the solution is acceptable ("good enough") for you. Feel free to add more options and vote for them. Please reserve justifications/discussion on the votes for the second section so we can more easily evaluate the vote tally.

The votes

Move former converts to a new list of former converts to Christianity

• Drumpler 05:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC) -- I am for this, although I am for other proposals as seen below. I, however, am willing to work with the consensus, whatever it might be.

Move former converts to a list of ex-Christians

• Nick Graves 15:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• T. Anthony 05:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• Cleo123 05:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• Drumpler 05:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Too wide and not specific enough. Although they could certainly also be included on such a list. For the purposes of this article, however, I am removing my vote. Drumpler 22:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• Sefringle 17:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

List former converts in a separate section of this article

• C.Logan
• Tendancer 17:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• John Carter 18:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC) - with serious reservations
• Drumpler 05:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• Nick Graves 02:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
• zadignose 02:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• T. Anthony 04:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC) with extreme reluctance.

List former converts in a separate section of this article, and make this section into its own article if and when 10 or more former converts are found

• Nick Graves 15:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• T. Anthony 05:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

List all converts under former religion. Use footnotes for any relevant information related to religious practice

• JJay 17:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• C.Logan (though this is a return back to square one, it's worth credit- I place my vote here cautiously.)
• This page lists people who converted to Christianity not people who are now Christians which is something Bus Stop never understood. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• John Carter 20:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Drumpler 05:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC) -- although I thought this list already had a separate article? Nevermind, I had it confused for this. The parameters on this list are too large to cover former notable converts (although they would likewise be included in such a list). Although maybe a subsection on this article might suffice? Drumpler 05:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• Teapotgeorge 17:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Separate subsections of each "by religion" section of the article, with each section made into a separate article linked to by this article when enough names are gathered

• John Carter 16:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• C.Logan (A bit messy to have sections with one person each, though...)
• Drumpler 21:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what the above means. Drumpler 05:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Basically, the "reverts" who left Christianity (in this case) to their religion prior to Christianity would be listed in a "reverts" (or similarly titled) subsection of the "from whatever" heading. So, in the case of a notable singer whose name is probably getting used a bit too often here, that individual would be included (depending on whether sufficient evidence were found to justify it) in the "Reverts" subheading of the "From Judaism" heading. I hope that clarifies the proposal a little. John Carter 15:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think it does. So basically, "From Judaism" > "Reverts" > list? Drumpler 21:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, basically like the "From Zoroastrianism" section and "Reversions" subsection I mentioned below would look like, if they were included normally. John Carter 22:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion or responses to the votes

• A separate list of former converts would not survive AfD at this point. If the section ever has ten or more entries, I think it should then be split into its own article. Nick Graves 15:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - I'm afraid my same concerns for the viability and usefulness of such an article still prevent me from seeing this idea work. If the bar for viability was raised to 15, or even 20, I would consider the idea, but even then, that would realistically be the utmost extent of the section/article. Essentially, we would be moving information from a page in which it is useful and relevant to the subject matter, to an isolated location with complex parameters and limited usefulness. As I'd said, it works better as a section than an article. Reasonably, any one of these sections 'by religion' are more than viable enough to form their own articles, but doing so would stunt the usefulness of this page and of the information in the section moved. I don't see how the same problems don't apply when considering the movement of this section to an article. I could flesh out my thoughts a bit, but I'd prefer to keep it general here.--C.Logan 16:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - I would add another possibility. Create separate listings under each subheading for individuals who have (apparently) converted to other faiths. So there might be a subheading "later conversions" under each section heading currently extant for the various faiths. To clafify,

==From Zoroastrianism==<br> ===Reversions===. Then, if there were to prove to be enough names for a separate, stand alone list for one or more religions individually, create those as separate subpages with links to them from this one. John Carter 15:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Comment. I believe such subsections would be quite small, and not as viable as a single section for all former converts. But feel free to add that option to the section above and vote for it. Nick Graves 16:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Agreed with Nick. I find the idea reasonable, but the section we have now has only three individuals. We would basically have an entirely separate section for one individual- imagine the appearance of the Sikhism section when the 3 listings are bisected by an entirely new section. It doesn't seem warranted. However, if we get 3 or more 'former' individuals for some of the faiths listed, I would see the subsections within religion sections being a viable idea. Still, though, that leaves the bisected Sikhism for a single entry (lets be honest with ourselves- the odds of another 'former Christian convert Sikh' turning up are astronomical).--C.Logan 16:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• • • Agreed. Basically, I think the best set-up for such a proposal would be as follows:
    • (1) The first such convert is listed in the regular "converts from" section, with text indicating his/her reversion
    • (2) If a second such convert is also added, then a separate subsection is created
    • (3) Upon ten names being added, a separate page is created.
    • This would allow all names to be included somewhere, and would allow for creation of separate pages wherever practicable. It also doesn't have my biggest objection to a separate section of the page, which is that such a section is not consistent with earlier sections and would attempt to create a second location in the list where individuals seeking a particular type of conversion (Sikh-Christian, for example) would have to look through for instances of the kind of conversion they are looking for. John Carter 17:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - While well thought, the above suggestion has some problems. The procedure exhibited in the first 2 points might make perfect sense to us, but to the reader, it's going to be confusing to have to deal with our sectional compromises. We shouldn't, I think, simply make a 'pre-coupling' staging area like the above idea seems to suggest. It should be one section with all names, or all names under the appropriate religious subsection with no other 'former converts section'. It is conceivable that we could move from the single section format to the subsections format if the number of individuals grows to a point (for example, 3 Muslims, 2 Jews, 1 Sikh, 2 Pagans, etc.)- we would simply reach a point where the subsection idea would make more sense, and then switch to it. Additionally, I disagree with point 3, for reasons I've explained directly above.--C.Logan 17:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Question - I wish the language of JJay's proposal above were a bit clearer. I think I might kind of agree to it, but I would want to have a clearer understanding of what it specifically means before I do so. John Carter 17:56, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Tendancer 17:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Also oppose any separation to other articles. Right now a single link can be created to this list via Christianization or Religious conversion, any efforts to break out the articles would make that no longer feasible. Not to mention, proposals such as e.g. having a condition like "make this section into its own article if and when 10 or more former converts are found" is inviting a couple of disruptive editors to game the system, by next week if not sooner we'll find about 15 uncited or synthesized original research names on the list, followed by one or both of them immediately deleting Dylan and writing here "we now have 10 names, this was agreed upon, and per <insert random WP:acronyms too complicated for them to understand but they'll mis-apply anyway, certain to contain the words/phrases WP:BLP WP:LIVING libel anti-semitic, and LOL". "LOL"
• This page lists people who converted to Christianity not people who are now Christians which is something Bus Stop never understood. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Question - please define which "former religion" (original or religion later converted to) you mean in the phrasing above. John Carter 18:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The headings say from x to y so by former. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The religion or belief system prior to conversion to Christianity. --JJay 18:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I have another question for JJay. The option you proposed reads "List all converts under former religion." By "converts," do you mean just those who, as far as we know from the sources, remained Christian, or do you also mean to include those who converted, but are no longer Christian? Also, I would suggest that, if this is the option that is agreed upon, it should be acknowledged right in the list entry (not just in footnotes) if someone is no longer Christian, or if their current religious status has been called into question by reliable sources. Nick Graves 20:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• If I may assume, I believe JJay intends to mean that converts who later changed their religion should be listed under their religion of origin, but with descriptions and footnotes explaining the individual's status. This is actually how the list was at the beginning of the discussion, so I'm a little cautious about returning to this state, even though I myself did not find great issue with the configuration- a major concern is 'confusion', but I'm certain that any individual with sufficient higher brain functions to navigate Misplaced Pages in the first place will have no trouble discerning an individual's situation based on his or her description. So basically, my major apprehension about this configuration is simply this- after 2 months of discussion, are we really going to return to square one? In the end, I don't mind either way, but it seems like a waste, and I'm afraid it may leave the door open for future contentions over the content of these lists.--C.Logan 21:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)I mean all converts, whether post-conversion they were ardent Christians, nominal Christians, or lapsed Christians. This should be expanded on in the article introduction, to indicate that we have not sought to verify the life-long practice of people on this list. Of course, the entries can be as long as editors feel is required. Footnotes can also be used to expand on religious practice, particularly when there is conflicting later information. The advantage of footnotes is that the list entries can be kept manageable, while still allowing analysis and expansion - which is something to be encouraged if we want this to be more than a mere itemization of names. The abandonment of one religion for another, the motivations and circumstances, is what interest me in this list (in this case, the specific conversion to Christianity). The act of conversion has historical validity that remains unchanged by later events. To me, that is the underlying scholarly justification for these sorts of lists. But personally, I don't see a later loss of faith, renouncement or reversion as much of an issue. When information is available to that effect, it should be noted. --JJay 21:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Not directed at anyone, but responding per request of Nick Graves. First I applaud Nick Graves giving us more options. I'd actually wanted to do that, but I wasn't sure how as I'd never set up a vote before. However I find some of the options confusing. What does Separate subsections of each "by religion" section of the article, with each section made into a separate article linked to by this article when enough names are gathered mean? Does it mean we'd have a bunch of articles like "People who converted from Islam to Christianity", "People who converted from Paganism to Christianity", etc (if each is long enough to make an article) and then they'd all link back to here? That seems a bit excessive if so. Also with as many options as are available how will we arrive at a decision? Will we have a run-off or go by plurality? There's enough here I think that's all I'm saying for now. I may not say anymore, but if I understand the issues better I might.--T. Anthony 05:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No, basically what the proposal is meant to indicate is that there might be, for example, a list of "Reverts to Islam" list which would include those who were adherents of Islam, left Islam for some other faith, and later returned to Islam. Presumably, those articles might be broken down either by time or by the religion to which they converted and later converted away from. Potentially, if some of the individual lists on these lists get really long in time, they might be at some time in the future broken down into sublists of "Reverts to Islam from Christianity" (for example), but I while I can see that potentially happening I don't expect to see it happen anytime soon in most if not all cases. John Carter 15:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay I see now, I think. Thanks.--T. Anthony 15:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In answer to T. Anthony: Once all of the editors have weighed in to their satisfaction, we can close the approval vote. The option that the most editors found to be acceptable is the one that is considered to reflect the strongest consensus. It might not be anyone's favorite option, but it is the option that most people find good enough so we can settle this issue and move on. There is no runoff unless there is a tie. In that case, we can hold another approval vote with just the options that have tied.

Editors might decide to expand what they consider acceptable options, after they see the general trend in the votes, and then vote accordingly. However, for this vote to succeed, editors must not withdraw their votes. Once you indicate that an option is acceptable to you, you should let that vote stand. I dare trust to the good faith of the editors not to try to go down that path, as it would undermine the advantages of this voting method. Nick Graves 18:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree in general with the above, with one qualifier. If, after later comments and possibly later options are created, you find that one option you supported might have serious weaknesses which you had not considered when you did indicate approval, it might be possible to remove your indication of support. However, I do believe that it would be reasonable to request in such cases a clear statement as to what has led you to change your opinion. I only say this because it might be possible for someone to see something someone says after they indicated support which they themselves had not thought of and might change their midn regarding the subject. John Carter 19:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

One potential problem I did not foresee in proposing this voting procedure was the possibility that one might withdraw a vote in order to give advantage to a personally favorite option over a merely personally acceptable option. Obviously, this would have the effect of violating the spirit and intent of the approval voting method in achieving compromise. Even if such was not the motivation behind a vote withdrawal, the appearance or possibility of such a motivation could be cause for someone to question the outcome of the vote. It remains to be seen whether Drumpler's vote withdrawals above would have any effect on the outcome.

If I were to propose a similar procedure for compromise in some article in the future, I think I would formulate it this way: (1) Have a certain period during which options are proposed. Anyone may propose as many options as they like. (2) Have a period during which the options are discussed, clarified, and reworded as necessary. (3) Have a period during which people make their approval votes, with the caveat that they may make additional votes whenever they like, but may not retract a vote. Each period would last maybe two or three days, and would have a specific date and time deadlines.

We'll see how the current vote pans out. It's unknown whether all of the editors will be satisfied enough to just accept the frontrunner and let this issue be. Methods beyond mediation or voting may be in order to settle this thing, though I hope not. Nick Graves 22:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it might be useful/might have been useful if we were to first discuss the pros and cons of each proposal. I was actually formulating a section like this on one of my personal pages, and was considering pasting it here until you proposed the vote. That being said, I think it would be useful and might change a few votes. If each possibility had the pros and cons listed, users would be able to consider these issues instead of voting for a possibility which 'sounds' good. Of course, the 'pros' and 'cons' should remain neutral in presentation and should not involve accusations concerning editors and such.--C.Logan 23:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I would also suggest that larger questions be settled first, with each party casting only one vote. (For example, do Non-Christians belong on this list? Yes or no? Should such people be included on another list? etc. etc.) As possibilities are eliminated, a second vote or series of votes, can iron out formatting particulars. Cleo123 01:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Closing the poll

I believe everyone involved has had ample opportunity to propose options, clarify them, discuss their merits, and vote for the ones they find acceptable or least objectionable. What does everyone say to closing this vote precisely 24 hours from the time of this post and moving on to a tie-breaker, if necessary? Nick Graves 04:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think most have been informed of the vote or will be within the 24 hours.--T. Anthony 05:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of us have selected more than one. Maybe extend it to 48 hours and allow others to then decide what they think is the best option of the ones proposed above? Drumpler 11:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, noticed this was mentioned above. I'll make my final decisions now. Drumpler 11:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

That could be okay too. Or we could do a middle ground. Say 36 hours from now.--T. Anthony 11:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

36 sounds reasonable. I just made my own final decision, though. I think we need to do it as it used to be done, with footnotes serving as clarifiers (although clarifying text might also need to be added to each name). It should be clear that the convert is no longer a Christian and doesn't identify with such any more. Drumpler 11:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to weigh in, as I don't want my failure to participate to have any negative effects, but I think the main points have already been demonstrated to have met a consensus. I know that Misplaced Pages decisions based on extensive dialogue should not be determined by a "vote." I know that polling is generally a resort meant to demonstrate the strength or weakness of an existing consensus. I also find the variety of proposals above seem to have complicated matters. Anyway, as I post my above comments, I'll add here that I had no intention of declaring a "winner," that in my comments I've stated that I believe the various "sides" and opinions have already contributed to bettering the article, even though we are not all in perfect agreement. I finally edited the text of the article itself, in keeping with the apparent consensus, as prompted by the departing moderator. Of course, continued dialogue is good. But we shouldn't be leaning on any two-thirds measure of consensus, as this is actually counter to Misplaced Pages policy. When we have half a dozen proposed ways to approach the article, with expressions only of "approval," this can perhaps give us a better sense of what the various editors think, but it is unlikely to demonstrate a "majority" of anything. zadignose 02:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This is an unusual situation. It's been unclear at times what the concensus is and two mediators have given up. I think we should have some leeway to find a solution. If that doesn't meet up with some Misplaced Pages rulebook so be it.--T. Anthony 04:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I want to go on record, again, as saying that I believe the approval voting method is inappropriate. Each editor should not be allowed more than one vote. Major issues such as do Non Christains belong on this or any other list should have been settled in a preliminary vote. Mixing formatting issues as to how they'll be listed would appear to be forecasting. Regardless, a poll that does not even acheive a 2/3 majority would not appear to be a consensus. Cleo123 04:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that that sort of voting took place. And with the multiple voting possibilities, I believe that the purpose of the poll is to work towards compromise. By placing only one vote for one option, we are still moving towards resolution in the cold sense. By indicating which possibilities would be satisfactory, we can determine which proposals are most agreed upon. I understand what you're saying, but in this way, we're working together more so. For instance, you and I would naturally choose possibilities that would be opposed if we were given a single vote. But with multiple options on the 'acceptability' spectrum, we might meet a resolution through an option that mildly satisfies the both of us- which essentially, is the typical outcome of a real compromise.--C.Logan 05:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Tiebreaker

The proposed time limit of 36 hours (to which no-one raised objections) has passed. (For the rest see Talk:List of notable converts to Christianity#Tiebreaker (moved))

Continous Vandalism and Anti-Semitic Accusations

This bugs me greatly (and given the edit history, I'm sure it does other editors). I think we are way past the stage of mediation. Two mediators have quit because of this user. Its about time we take it to the next step. Drumpler 09:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we're finally make a bit of progress. The second mediator leaving gave a sense of how necessary it is to resolve this and the current proposals might do something. Although if the current vote proposals don't end things I quit. I hope User:Bus stop weighs in favor of one of the proposals, but I agree he needs to be less disruptive. If he won't or can't do that is there a way to block him from this article? (And only this article as I guess he does some good work elsewhere)--T. Anthony 10:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In case he gets angry I'm talking "if." If he doesn't abide by whatever conclusion we make and also continues to call people names. The same would apply to say User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel or anyone else if in the future they're continually disruptive and don't accept any resolution. I'm certainly hoping no such thing happens and that we get this straightened out soon.--T. Anthony 10:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

There is obviously something I am missing here, as I do not, nor have I ever seen User:Bus stop call anyone, any kind of names. I have seen people call him names. As I see it, he has referred to the article content potentially being perceived by Jewish readers as offensive and, in his view, "antisemitic". Perhaps, I've missed something because I really don't recall him ever calling another editor "antisemitic". I'm not sure why anyone would have that perception. There is no question that he has belabored his point, but how one extrapolates personal attacks and/or incivility out of a Jewish editor's perception of the article's content eludes me. I am not at all offended by his remarks. If an African American editor voiced concerns about racist overtones in an article, would editors be trying to get that user blocked from editing the article? Cleo123 02:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

He has pretty clearly said that editors who want Dylan in do so for antisemitic reasons. That antisemitism or "forced conversion" is the main reason to include Dylan. For example see "Mediator, on the Definition of a Christian" where he says "I see a small group of dedicated editors intent on knocking Judaism down a notch. I defend my right to say that" and also added he doesn't need to assume good faith. He had plenty of opportunities to say he was not accusing editors of antisemitism, but he generally chose not to do so. Granted it's possible his style has made his remarks sound worse than they are in reality. Still I was also against User:zadignose putting Dylan back and complained about here. I made sure to lead to his re-removal in order to see how this last thing plays out. I did not say his putting Dylan back was returning "antisemitic and contrived" content. Even if he thought the Dylan info was "antisemitic and contrived" there's less hurtful ways of referring to zadignose's actions. Besides which I was saying "if." If I'm all wrong about how Bus stop is now that's great. If Bus stop proves to be no problem after we decide whatever than also great. If he or anyone else becomes continually disruptive than something should be done. (Although I'd want it to be done in a civil way. Just a recognition that he became too obsessed on Bob Dylan related matters and not any kind of overall condemnation of him)--T. Anthony 02:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking we need to set a deadline and agree to take action, no matter which side wins in this debate. If it is agreed, I think this should be the most appropriate route. I would propose to protect the article from contentious editors for a short time period also. Drumpler 22:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Page protection has been done (twice) before. It was, shall we say, only temporarily effective. The last mediator said the matter should be referred to the Mediation Committee. It already factually was, though, and Bus stop refused to accept mediation. Assuming he would do so again, the only subsequent step I can think of is the Arbitration Committee. Would that be an acceptable step to you? John Carter 22:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Gee, I think you all may be over reacting a bit here. I understand you are angry with User:Bus stop and that you find his editorial view offensive – but what has he done here to warrant any sort of escalation on your part? He is not even participating in the discussion anymore. Thanks, I suspect, to the numerous personal attacks that have recently been made against him. As I see it, User:zadignose jumped the gun by restoring Dylan to the list before a final vote had even been conducted. . In the midst of the ongoing debate, the premature edit should have been reverted as User:Bus stop did – once. I will say that User:Bus stop’s edit summary was a bit inflammatory and unnecessary, however, he is not edit warring on the article – the group of you are. It seems to me that several of these edit summaries are just as, if not more, uncivil than User:Bus stop’s one edit, which the majority of editors seem to condone, as they have been reverting to User:Bus stop’s version. Why would there be grounds for arbitration and blocking against someone who has made one edit to the article that was consistent with majority opinion, and is not even participating in the discussion? Cleo123 01:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel too as he called me a bully and such. Still looking through the history Bus stop's here he started with removing Dylan and when that got reverted he just kept removing. He didn't discuss including him or not until later. He even indicated the list should be deleted if Dylan was not removed. (This was back in April) So I think he came in pretty confrontational. This might be confrontational for a just and righteous cause, but it's been counterproductive from the beginning and made him look like an obsessive.--T. Anthony 03:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was referring to Bus Stop as the bully not you T Anthony. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 20:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Obsessive might describe someone who insists on putting non-Christians on a list of converts to Christianity. Bus stop 03:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Considering they'd been on from the beginning, I'd say failure to remove them is not obsessive. It could have just been laziness or an attachment to the status quo. No, you were one of the more obsessive ones. I'm not saying this obsession was necessarily wrong as I also oppose including non-Christians. I think you brought up some valid issues. However I think the way you did this was a bit counterproductive. Further you made unsubstantiated accusations of editors wanting to demean Judaism. I think you mostly have been attacked for being provocative. Now being provocative is not always a bad thing, but you have to accept that it inherently means you'll provoke a response. That response may get negative, even personal. That said maybe I shouldn't have "piled on." I'm totally willing to forgive you for your insults if you'll forgive those who insulted you. Then maybe we can move on.--T. Anthony 05:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

To Cleo123: Given, but the fact that Bus stop has been doing this for quite some time has not really helped his cause. I actually joined this discussion when I read on the WP:EAR board about this list. When overwhelming consensus has been reached, he has gone in and reverted regardless. Likewise, he has accused many here of being anti-Semitic and Christian missionaries (I'm surely not either). One of the mediators, who was a Jew, told him he was overstepping his bounds in that area. I think I speak for many editors here when I say I am tired of having to deal with his antics and think only real progress can be made by stripping his editorial privileges from this article.

To John Carter: I think the Arbitration Committee would be appropriate to settle this. Two mediators later has certainly not resolved it (even though both did fantastic jobs, in my mind) and I think it is time to settle it once and for all. I'll maybe contribute some diffs when I have the time (this whole debate has had me exasperated). Drumpler 11:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should try to follow procedures. Evidently, the next step would be to file a request with the Mediation Committee, and see if this time Bus stop agrees to mediation. If not, then the Arbitration Committee would be the only step remaining. However, I think it would be a good idea to put off requesting more formal mediation until after the time for requesting opinions on the existing proposals has ended and we have some idea of what the more favored and less favored options are. John Carter 14:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I would welcome an indication from the rest of you as to when you believe that the required time for the conclusion of the polling has ended, so we can file the request for mediation, which is the indicated next step. John Carter 13:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we're thinking about a new mediation, when the situation seems mostly resolved at this point, or very close to resolved. The minds of many people coming from many sides and perspectives are meeting, we're just not meeting with Bus Stop's approval. If we form a consensus on how to proceed (and it seemed to me we already had, but the latest round of discussions and polling seem to even further establish a viable compromise solution with broad consensus to proceed), then it will again be abundantly clear when Bus Stop tries to revert against consensus. In some ways, it seems we have a history of undermining ourselves, because everytime we reach some kind of consensus, we suddenly call for more polls, more opinions, and more moderation, as if we're insecure in our decisions and need further reassurance. Then, of course, Bus Stop notices this insecurity, launches another aggressive campaign, shakes everything apart, and we find ourselves once again looking around and saying "do we still agree, guys?" We rebuild the bridges that have been built to meet with those who disagree, but can see merit in several points of view and are able to "agree to disagree." And we have to hope that feelings haven't been hurt, and people haven't become too exasperated to be able to go another round and reaffirm the consensus that was already established long ago. For a simple example, consider how the question "Did Bob Dylan ever convert?" keeps getting reoppened, when that point hasn't seriously been disputed in a long long time, and the consensus there is clear. The questions "is this list essentially anti-semitic," and "are we proselytizing?" aren't even serious, as the clear consensus answer to both is "no," but they frustrate, anger, and inspire enough inappropriate responses to threaten the consensus building on more serious issues. We just have to build our consensus without Bus Stop, and if we see we have the necessary consensus, then we don't need to call in another moderator to confirm an already formed conclusion. zadignose 14:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

On some points, there does seem to be the possibility of consensus. What seems to me the most problematic area of discussion, and one which I personally think will sooner or later wind up before ArbCom anyway, is the contention that WP:BLP applies to what some will call controversial content such as being included in this article. I personally wouldn't mind seeing that brought before ArbCom simply for the purpose of having some sort of clear statement on the subject for future use elsewhere. Having said that, if there is a consensus on the content here, there would be no reason to bring it before MedCom and later ArbCom if there is nothing to be mediated or arbitrated, based on general agreement on the subject. John Carter 14:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't entirely see it that way. There was enough of an irritated minority, before, that I think we did need a bit more hashing. This wasn't "insecurity" it was genuine concern for a real agreement. Granted I'm behind some of the recent proposals, but I still think there is evidence they were good things not signs of weakness. Finally Cleo, Nick, and I were able to get a clearer sense of what the concensus was and how to accept it. I think that's very positive and we did it without mediators. Maybe when it all ends we'll have something tolerable to all of us. Where I agree is that I really think the only problem left is Bus stop as he refuses to compromise, discuss, or deal with others. I also don't see how mediation will help that.--T. Anthony 15:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes you're right that there have been positive outcomes. I tried to highlight that elsewhere in the discussion, and didn't mean to take too negative a perspective on the process. In fact, I think the article itself is moving in a positive direction. But I do fear seeing certain points hashed out endlessly, and I am aware that the frustration caused by some of the personal accusations and reposted comments can be disruptive too. I nearly threw up my hands and walked away on several occassions, and I'm sure some editors have done just that.zadignose 15:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

zadignose -- I think you are misconstruing issues. There are references to conversion from 1979. There is no indication of formal conversion, only the use of the term, and only from 27 years ago. Since about 1980 Bob Dylan has had nothing to do with Christianity. Is he a convert to Christianity? No. Is he a Christian? No. He is a Jew. This is a list of Christians who arrived at Christian identity by way of conversion. There is no evidence of formal conversion. There is no evidence of Bob Dylan having anything to do with Christianity for the past 27 years. He has in fact, in the intervening 27 years been involved with Orthodox Judaism. How do you reconcile Orthodox Judaism with Christianity? Bob Dylan was not only born Jewish, to two parents who were both Jewish, but he is presently practicing the most severely observant form of Judaism found on Earth. Bob Dylan is regarded as and accepted by the ultra-Orthodox Lubovitch sect of Judaism. Bob Dylan is involved in their religious services. How is it that some of you are so insistent that the Jewish person Bob Dylan is for your purposes a Christian?

We are talking about a list (List of notable converts to Christianity) that should only have Christians on it. Many of the editors here have come up with a variety of contrived understandings of what should be very straightforward parameters for this list -- all with the express aim of getting Bob Dylan on this list. All of the argumentation above involves altering the parameters and changing the name of the list to try to get the Jewish person Bob Dylan onto this list. There is a mirror image of this list. It is called the List of notable converts to Judaism. It does not contain anyone on it who is not a Jew. Read the parameters. The parameters are explicitly stated at the top of the List of notable converts to Judaism. It says:

"This page is a list of Jews."

It goes on to say:

"This list of Jews should be restricted to individuals identified as Jews by reliable sources, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's verifiability and no original research policies. Any items not conforming to these policies may be removed immediately."

Can you give me any good reason why the List of notable converts to Christianity cannot use similarly straightforward parameters? And why, in title change, is there the suggestion of changing the name of the List of notable converts to Christianity? Isn't that an attempt to circumvent logical parameters? And for what reason -- just to get Bob Dylan onto the List of notable converts to Christianity? There happen to be 200 other names on the List of notable converts to Christianity besides Bob Dylan.

If Bob Dylan were a Christian then he would belong on this list. But he is not. And the fact of conversion is absent. The mere use of the word 27 years ago by the media doesn't label Bob Dylan for life as a convert to Christianity. To list Bob Dylan on List of notable converts to Christianity is offensive to his present status as a Jew. The argument for syncretism is bogus in Bob Dylan's instance -- the Lubovitch don't dabble in Christianity. List of notable converts to Christianity should be following the straightforward parameters as found at List of notable converts to Judaism. It is attempts at contrivance to get or keep Bob Dylan on the List of notable converts to Christianity that keeps this dispute going. Bus stop 15:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you don't understand or aren't reading what others say. This is not about Dylan. I don't care about Dylan and I don't think User:Nick Graves cares much about that either. We have tried to move on from that, or at least deal with more than that, but you haven't moved on. What we're at now is trying to come to a concensus on what's to be done with former converts. I think we've had a good conversation on that and come to an agreement. It's not what I'm entirely satisfied with, but that's the nature of agreements. I can live with it as I see it's the best option. I really wanted you to be part of all that and I still would like that if you can. However if you can't than please at least find a way to tolerate it. If you can't even do that then frankly I think you need to ignore this article. Or put it up for AfD. I think you will lose at AfD, but if you can't tolerate a concensus maybe it means you need to lose in a way more final and definite than we can give you.(statement withdrawn--T. Anthony 17:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)) Whatever you do please try to move on. I fear you're on the verge of being disciplined if you go on this way and I don't want that.--T. Anthony 16:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's not give him any crazy ideas. He's already put it up for deletion, with this result. And furthermore:

"Actually, that's incorrect. We can't contrive parameters, because, you see, Dylan is not Jewish, and this is a list of Christians."zadignose 17:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

zadignose -- That is not a quote from me. That is a fictionalized representation of something I might have said, produced my Moralis, and it contains within it something that is nonsensical, apparently not spotted by Moralis or zadignose.

Aren't some of you playing "fast and loose" with information? Is that the proper attitude to take to writing what is represented as being a form of encyclopedia? Bus stop 17:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• The article was kept last month on AfD following Bus Stop's nomination. Don't encourage further disruption from this user. --JJay 17:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Presumably, then, you would say that your own undocumented claims of "anti-semitimism", Christian conspiracy, etc., etc., etc., do qualify as being the "proper attitude to take to writing that is represented as being a form of encyclopedia"? Personally, I believe that if you view your own comments mentioned above as acceptable, that slight misstatement, which does not make the unfounded accusations you regularly do make, has to be regarded as acceptable. That is, of course, if your conduct to date is viewed as acceptable. John Carter 17:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Bus Stop: And, of course, I'm quite aware that it's not a quote from you, which is why I linked it to where I quoted it from. And I was aware of the absurd contradiction within it, but didn't edit it as it's a quote, plus the sheer inanity of it made it seem even more apropos. zadignose 17:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not address issues?

There should not be non-Christians on a list of converts to Christianity. That is the issue. This is not a voting process. This is a talking process. We know perfectly well that the majority can be wrong. This is, in its simplest understanding, a list of those Christians who arrived at Christian identity by way of conversion. Why are any of us trying to expand it to include more? The concept of this list is the listing, not of those who have experimented with Christianity, but of those who have found Christianity. Did Dylan (and the two others) find Christianity, or is it more correct to say that they experimented with Christianity? It almost seems as though one is penalized for experimentation. Should a Jew be cautious in checking out Christianity? That is the lesson that we gain from the goings on here. Dylan is not a convert to Christianity. Please compile a list of converts to Christianity. Don't include on it those who are Jews, or those who are of any other religion. Please include on it only Christians. It is abusive of the list to do otherwise. Bus stop 12:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• "Jesus put his hand on me. It was a physical thing. I felt it. I felt it all over me. I felt my whole body tremble. The glory of the Lord knocked me down and picked me up. Being born again is a hard thing. You ever seen a mother give birth to a child? Well it's painful. We don't like to lose those old attitudes and hang-ups. Conversion takes time because you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. You have to learn to drink milk before you can eat meat. You're re-born, but like a baby. A baby doesn't know anything about this world and that's what it's like when you're re-born. You're a stranger. You have to learn all over again. God will show you what you need to know. "I guess He's always been calling me", Dylan said gently. "Of course, how would I have ever known that? That it was Jesus calling me."
• In late 1978 Dylan himself was busy being born again. His widely-publicized conversion to Christianity made him perhaps the most famous Jewish apostate in American history Yudelson, Larry. Dylan: Tangled Up in Jews. Washington Jewish Week, 1991
• Dylan has, if only from the ironic sideline, taken part in --and sung at-- the deepest spiritual crises of his generation of American Jews: the drama of the civil rights struggle, the comforts and exoticism of the Jewish homeland, and the spiritual excitements of Lubavitch. He also became a Christian--the one leader he followed--and never really looked back and renounced it Yudelson, Larry. Dylan: Tangled Up in Jews. Washington Jewish Week, 1991
• Elie Wiesel wrote to me he had considered Dylan's conversion a tragedy and hoped that efforts to reach him would succeed. Marshall- Bob Dylan's Unshakeable Monotheism -- Part IV: The 1990s,Jewsweek, 2004
• "During the conversion thing, I went where I was told. I was aware that it mattered to him. He's never done anything half-assed. If he does anything, he goes fully underwater" Jakob Dylan, JAKOB'S LADDER Part 2, Rolling Stone, 1997
• ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC. -- --JJay 13:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

JJay -- Dylan is a performer. Everything you say is explainable as mere performance, as mere persona, as mere transitory lifestyle. But that is not the point. The point is that Bob Dylan is not a Christian now, is he? That is why I entitled this section, "Why not address issues?" Your edit summary shows a disinclination to address issues. This is your edit summary: "Why not realize you are wrong?" Are you discussing the issue of what the parameters of this list should be? Or, are you escalating the tension by making a frontal attack on my premise in opening this section in the discussion? Bus stop 13:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

We're having one last go on "former converts" and where to place them. I would appreciate your vote on one of the proposals available. Maybe that can help those that want former converts somewhere else. You and JJay fighting is probably not helping anyone.--T. Anthony 14:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• You do realize that no conclusive evidence has been presented to establish Dylan as a "former convert"? --JJay 15:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

JJay, as you know User:Metzenberg has provided a plethora of reliable sources for Dylan's "return" to Judaism on the Bob Dylan talk page. Likewise, on at least three occassions, I have provided additional sources during this dispute. Plenty of sources that meet Misplaced Pages's verifiability criteria have been provided. I don't understand why you keep asking for something that has been previously provided to you. As you have been a primary participant in this dispute since it first began on the Bob Dylan talk page, you are surely aware that the majority of editors have accepted User:Metzenberg's sources, which resulted in a consensus vote on that page for the removal of the Christian Converts Tag from Dylan's biography. It is very unfortunate that a group of editors, whose point of view did not prevail in that discussion subsequently chose to engage in a campaign of censorship regarding Dylan's ethnic heritage, attempting to remove mention of him as a Jewish American artist. Likewise, it would appear that editors, who have identified themselves as Jewish, have been the targets of harassment. Several of the key participants on the loosing side of that discussion chose to follow User:Bus stop to this page and initiate a new, yet similarly themed argument. I would encourage all editors to review the Bob Dylan article talk page, as it is very enlightening as to the roots of this dispute. Cleo123 02:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Believe as you will, but will you please drop the accusations of "antisemitism"? It is very unprofessional. Drumpler 02:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, I have made no accusations of antisemitism. I have also discouraged User:Bus stop, on the record, from speculating as to the motivations of other editors. I have stated only documented facts above. If you choose to infer something from the facts, that is your interpretation of what has transpired - but that is not my statement. Cleo123 04:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I infered it from this statement: "Likewise, it would appear that editors, who have identified themselves as Jewish, have been the targets of harassment". If I misinterpreted it, I apologize, but to me, it read as if said editors were being targeted because of their Judaism and I do not think that's the case. Drumpler 07:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• Please don't start that up again. I think the matter is in debate enough that for our purposes he counts as a former Christian. Anyway and in any event whatever you think is Dylan's status the proposals are about former converts. I do want Bus stop to be part of the process as I hope that may ultimately lead to some peace.--T. Anthony 17:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
• I disagree. The matter has not been seriously discussed here and is contradicted by the sources. "Former Christian" is not the language used in the Bob Dylan article and is also not the language that was nearing consensus for the Dylan entry prior to the recent mediation. Vocal complaints by wikipedia editors can not overrule WP:V or WP:RS. --JJay 17:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• Sigh. Fine you want to fight, fight. I'm done with this section. Hopefully Nick will inform me how the vote goes. I will abide by that regardless. If none of you can well that's your problem.--T. Anthony 17:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• Dylan is a performer- totally irrelevant
• Everything you say is explainable as mere performance, as mere persona, as mere transitory lifestyle. - a bizarre point-of-view. Everything I say is supported by WP:RS
• The point is that Bob Dylan is not a Christian now, is he? - There is no significant evidence that Bob Dylan has renounced his conversion to Christianity. There are numerous sources that argue against that POV.
• That is why I entitled this section, "Why not address issues?" - You have started innumerable, largely identical threads on the same issue. Your heading for this thread is a violation of WP:Talk
• Your edit summary shows a disinclination to address issues. This is your edit summary: "Why not realize you are wrong?" - I'm discussing the "issues" right now. We have repeatedly established consensus on this issue. Continued defiance of consensus qualifies as WP:DE. You have been blocked for disruption once and edit warrring twice concerning this issue. Review WP:DE and WP:TE
• Are you discussing the issue of what the parameters of this list should be? Or, are you escalating the tension by making a frontal attack on my premise in opening this section in the discussion? - your "premise" has been discussed to death here. Do not submit "premises" or opinions or theories. Provide sources. In terms of "escalating tension", you have repeatedly attacked the integrity of most participating editors here. You have made numerous biased accusations. You have attacked the mediators who participated here. You are poorly placed to discuss "escalating tension". --JJay 13:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

To Bus stop. It's true, the concensus can be wrong. Misplaced Pages tends to do a horrible job on religious matters. I left Misplaced Pages because it allows many stupid things based on the concensus of stupid people. However I think you might be rushing the gun, We don't know what the vote result will be yet. I generally gave the process a chance before leaving in anger. So please wait to find out what we decide of the proposals and votes. If you don't like what we agree to you can revisit the matter in a few months. Could you at least consider that?--T. Anthony 13:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

To JJay. I understand your irritation, but please try to refrain from making things worse or fighting.--T. Anthony 14:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

T. Anthony -- How do you understand JJay's irritation? We are trying to resolve an issue, are we not? If, as you say, you don't think that non-Christians should be included on this list, then why is that not what you are saying to JJay? Instead you are saying that you understand? Am I incorrect in getting the impression that you want to perpetuate this issue rather than resolve it? Bus stop 15:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I want to understand your position too and I think we need to reach some kind of closure or peace on this matter. I do understand being a religious minority here and feeling like other editors want to "knock down" your religion or origin. Added to being Catholic, I'm also an OI. One edit on the OI article said we're "nature's cruelest joke" or something similarly insulting. However I can understand his being frustrated by your calling editors antisemitic. If you do not feel you are doing that than I'd be happy if you'd clear up the misconception. Because it looks to many, I'd say most, here that you have been unfair and overly aggressive to other editors. Anyway I'm really trying to be fair. Although I fear this may lead to me disliking both of you or vice versa.--T. Anthony 17:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

T. Anthony -- I'm sorry about your having OI and sincerely I wish you well coping with and hopefully triumphing over that.

I never called any editor antisemitic. I said that a list of Christians containing Jews is antisemitic. The opposite of antisemitism involves the respecting of differences. Antisemitism commonly involves ignoring the differences between Jews and non-Jews. All the disclaimers do not remedy the ignoring of parameters. If you do not have a Christian who arrived at that identity by conversion then you do not have an individual who belongs on this list. I called no editor an antisemite. Obviously it is editors who write a list. But it is also possible the error was inadvertent.

I haven't been "overly aggressive to other editors," far from it. The opposite is the case. You would have to dig back into a few months of archives to see that. I'm not inclined to do that at the moment. Bus stop 18:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't going to post in this section, but thanks for that. Maybe much of this has just been a misunderstanding of some kind. I hope so. As for the OI deal for amount of men with my condition things improve starting at age 10. This has been the case for me, mostly, and I haven't had any fractures for nearly a decade. I'm pretty happy, for the most part, but somewhat embarrassed at my own laziness.--T. Anthony 18:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

T. Anthony -- It is offensive to mislabel a person. It is offensive to mislabel a Jew a Christian. This is not the list of those who passed through a Christian transitional phase 27 years ago. This is, properly understood, the list of those present Christians who were not born Christian, but who are in fact converts to Christianity. We should stop dancing around the hard facts. No non-Christians have any place on this list. It is a list. That means it has parameters. We should stop fudging the parameters in order to include Bob Dylan. There is no onlooker who does not know that this list is all about Bob Dylan's dalliance with Christian identity 27 years ago. This article began with the germ of an idea that Bob Dylan's dalliance with Christianity could be showcased with a list of converts to Christianity. Do I know that for a fact? No. Of course I do not know that for a fact. But if we look at the earliest version of this article we see Bob Dylan on it. And next to Bob Dylan's name is the statement that Bob Dylan is not in fact a Christian, but is in fact a Jew. The dithering was there from the start. The imprecise parameters have been there from the start. The very contradiction between the name of this list and the contents of this list were there from the start. That contradiction should alert everyone to the possibility of point of view pushing going on here. The simple definition of this list does not allow for such point of view pushing. The simple definition of this list is that it is a list of those notable Christians who arrived at Christian identity by way of conversion. Those are simple parameters. Abide by those parameters and we have a perfectly sensible, and non-offensive list. Bus stop 14:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what to say. I don't think the list should include former Christians either. However you're basically just repeating yourself so I might as well do the same. Please wait until we find out what conclusion the vote reaches. If you dislike the conclusion the vote makes then leave the article for a few months. That's not an insult. I think time off can be useful. After that you may return to find editors are more open to your position and you may become better able to argue your perspective. In the meantime please give this one last effort a chance.--T. Anthony 14:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

What bugs me, Bus stop, is not so much your views but how I feel you handle things. You have a tendency to throw around the words "should" and "should not" a lot. Where people disagree with you, they or their actions have been variously described as "anti-semitic", "proselytizing", etc. There are others who (I believe) reasonably disagree with you, however, you have a tendency to throw weight and authority around which you don't possess. I think if you were to actually discuss the issue without throwing said words and accusations around, people would feel less alienated toward your position. There's a world of difference between "should" and "I think we should". Likewise, where consensus is reached, I don't think it wise to undo edits you had no formal participation in. It was the mediator who actually suggested we vote on the issue. Votes show where consensus is reached.

WP:BLP actually says this (emphasis mine):

Material from primary sources should be used with great care. For example, public records that include personal details such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses, as well as trial transcripts and other court records, should not be used unless cited by a reliable secondary source. Where primary-source material has first been presented by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to turn to open records to augment the secondary source, subject to the no original research policy. See also Misplaced Pages:Verifiability.

We have had plenty of reliable secondary material that states that he indeed was a Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica explicitly says this:

In a dramatic turnabout, he converted to Christianity in 1979 and for three years recorded and performed only religious material, preaching between songs at live shows. Critics and listeners were, once again, confounded. Nonetheless, Dylan received a Grammy Award in 1980 for best male rock vocal performance with his “gospel” song “Gotta Serve Somebody.”

There are several such sources that editors have contributed that say likewise. This is all that is needed in order to fulfill the criteria for mention of his religious conversion. No one is trying to "widen the net" in order to "convert people" or be "anti-semitic". We are doing our best trying to include verifiable facts. This is a list of Christian converts, true. But many of us (myself included) feel it appropriate to include those who converted at some prior time in their lives, because their Christianity had some significant impact in their lives (Dylan's effected his music). Instead of undoing what others have contributed (much of which was actually done in order to compromise with you), try discussing and participating in polls. Whatever ends up being the outcome in the end, accept it, and move on for a while before attempting to bring up the subject again (if, over time, you think it is worth bringing up). But please do not let your own religious sensibilities override the hard work and sensibilities of other editors. It is not fair to be called something that you are indeed not and personal attacks, as such, do not belong on Misplaced Pages. Drumpler 21:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Drumpler -- From where do you get the parameter for this list that Christianity had to have some significant impact in someone's life for them to be included in this list? Aren't you devising parameters that will result in the list that you would like to see, specifically a list containing Bob Dylan? The requirements for inclusion on this list, as I see it, are that a person has to be notable, they have to be Christian, and they have to have arrived at Christian identity by way of conversion. (They couldn't have arrived at Christian identity by way of having been born Christian.) Bob Dylan is not a Christian. So how do you see him as qualifying for inclusion on this list? Bus stop 02:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Former Christian. Notable. Made significant impact on his life and career. Per article's original heading. Drumpler 03:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree - He converted. Whether he is one now is another matter, but it's encyclopaedic that he is included. It would be revisionist to exorcise this entry because he is a Jew in race. The two are not mutually exclusive; he could be a Jew and an Atheist for that matter but do we remove Jews from the list of Atheists simply because these would appear incompatible if you considered that a Jew could only ever fully believe the Tanakh in its entirety. In the end after many weeks Bus stop has simply rephrased his same tranche of original research without showing some authority other than his own views that being a Jew (in race) and being Christian (in theology) are mutually incompatible. If we allow Jew (race) and Atheist (from Misplaced Pages POV it *is* a religion) then we can equally allow the former example. The idea that a person born a Jew cannot disentangle themselves from a religion is a little disturbing and runs counter to what I'd feel is acceptable in society. What is acceptable is codified in, for example, Article 9 of the ECHR which provides a right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". What you are proposing runs counter to that unless you can identify some law or necessity that forbids Dylan from having done this.

In the end thus, Bus stop has not shown which authority deems that Dylan is unable to exercise a fundamental human right because, as a Jew, Dylan is forbidden from exercising these rights which we all enjoy (at least in the free world). Ttiotsw 06:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

He says some confusing things, but it's not clear what Bus stop thinks of List of notable converts to Christianity#From Judaism as a whole. If he wants it removed you'd seem to be right. Feel free to can ask him, but let's try to be civil on all sides.--T. Anthony 06:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Drumpler, Ttiotsw and T. Anthony -- No, actually, we are not permitted to contrive parameters to get the list we desire. There happen to be two means by which either Jews or Christians acquire their identity as Jews or Christians -- that is by birth or by conversion. The most elemental parameters for this list are those notable Christians who arrived at Christian identity by way of conversion. Contriving parameters in any which way you want to get Bob Dylan onto this list is manipulative, and it is just a manipulation to achieve desired ends. See the parameters used at the List of notable converts to Judaism. It says at that list:

"This page is a list of Jews."

It goes on to say:

"This list of Jews should be restricted to individuals identified as Jews by reliable sources, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's verifiability and no original research policies. Any items not conforming to these policies may be removed immediately."

The above are actually the same parameters for this list. Just substitute the word Christian for the word Jew to read the parameters for this list. That is not because I say so, but because parameters arise naturally, in their elemental state. We must avoid point of view pushing here at Misplaced Pages. If Bob Dylan were a Christian then of course he would belong on this list. But he is not. Please confine this list to those individuals who meet the parameters that actually apply to this list. Please don't concoct the parameters that will result in the list that you desire. Bus stop 07:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You must understand that other individuals do not come to the same 'logical' conclusions which you do, and do not have the same 'expectations' about what they are going to see.

Despite the continued use of certain terms and phrases, you are simply aggrandizing your own personal logic and expectations and portraying these as universal fundamentals. To most others, whether they agree with your beliefs or not, it is clear that these are merely your opinions, and your own subjective analysis of the situation. There is no universality in your opinions or arguments any more than there is in my own.

That being said, you're neither wrong nor right- you are merely stating your own opinion. Whether a reader agrees or disagrees with you is his or her own business, and neither stance makes their own opinion right or wrong.--C.Logan 07:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm agreed. Its not so much that I disrespect Bus stop's right to believe as he wishes as it is that he pushes his own point of view as the law of the universe ("should, should not") and those who disagree are writing "anti-semitic", "proselytising", etc.

We can agree to disagree. I actually see Bus stop's point-of-view and understand it, but find it unnecessary to split the article into two to accomodate it when a footnote or explanation is significant. Drumpler 07:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

To Bus stop. I do not want to contrive a way to get Dylan, or any other Jewish person, on. In many cases I've actually asked to have names in the Jewish section removed or removed them myself when I feel they are on inappropriately. (Although I did the same with a pagan as well) Ideally I don't want former converts on the list at all, or at least as it is now titled, because I think it's misleading or unnecessary. However I think a "minor evil" can be allowed in order to avoid a "greater evil." I will tolerate whatever agreement is made, even if it's the awful "only explain their status is footnote" deal, in order for the greater good of ending the stalemate. That's the way this place works. You can't always get exactly what you personally think is right here. If you could List of Christian thinkers in science wouldn't have started harping on the evils of the Catholic Church, Aluminum wouldn't be a redirect, and List of Catholic priests wouldn't have quite as many sex offenders.--T. Anthony 10:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected

Given the repeated editwarring by multiple editors, this article is protected from editing.--Isotope23 17:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The Big Picture

This could go on for quite a while. I was once involved in a similar dispute that lasted well over a year (except it got a lot more nasty, if you can believe that). Then people got burned out, quit Misplaced Pages, or stopped watching the article. The dispute ended at around Groundhog's Day of this year. Since then, edits to the page have been few and far between. People just decided that having their way with the page wasn't a prize worth the continued bickering. And now the article is at peace. The things that seemed so critical to the disputants at the time turned out not to be so.

Right now, it looks like consensus is headed toward putting things back pretty much the way they were before the dispute. That could change, if Cleo and Bus stop (and possibly T. Anthony) were to support the "separate section for formers" option, even if they really don't like that option, and even though it's exactly the same as the previous compromise. The way I see it, it's the lesser of two evils, and really "evil" is too strong a word. It's great to stand up for principles. But one principle that gets forgotten too often is the principle of "not wasting time" (and I'll be the first to admit that I've lost sight of this as much as anyone).

This article can be an incredible timesink to anyone who lets it. My advice would be for everyone to put in their final votes, respect whatever consensus the vote indicates, and just let it be. That's what I plan on doing. Nick Graves 01:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm agreed. I have decided that no matter where the votes lead, I will accept the final outcome. Drumpler 01:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I've made it clear I will abide by the ruling/poll-concensus/whatever-we-call-it and encourage others do the same. Although you have made me think.--T. Anthony 04:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

That said could we at least rename it to "List of notable people who converted to Christianity" or some such? I'll accept whatever even if we don't, but that might help some.--T. Anthony 04:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I actually like this proposal. It makes the article parameters unambiguous, whereas left as it is, people could interpret it either way. Drumpler 07:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with T. Anthony's suggested title change. It would make the article less misleading. Cleo123 08:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I too agree with the title change it seems such a neat resolution? Presumably there would be no objection to Bob Dylan appearing on the list then? Teapotgeorge 09:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd considered making it a proposal, but I waited too long.--T. Anthony 10:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• reset indent - Please use indents*

Isn't that just another contrivance to get Bob Dylan on the list? Should we be starting out with the contents for a list already in mind and then coming up with the title that seems least contrived? Is that the way an encyclopedia should be compiled? Or should we be starting out with great concepts and then letting those concepts run and seeing where they take us? Do any of you see the difference? In the one instance you already have your answer, and you are only seeking the question for your answer. In the other instance you are asking what you believe to be a valid question and your goal is to get the answer to that question, no matter what that answer may be. There is no question being asked here. There is only the formulation of a question to sit as a figurehead on top of the answer that you already have in mind. That is not encyclopedic. That starts out with one's personal point of view and then finds a suitable form for promoting it. Does anyone not see that it promotes a pre-formulated, preexisting, point of view?

The fact of the matter is that Bob Dylan isn't Christian. So now the title should get changed to accommodate a Jewish person on a list that is ostensibly a list of converts to Christianity? Bus stop 11:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I like "converted" as it implies the past tense in English. Still would be open to conjecture that the "converted" were still currently "converted" so I guess we add the little section for the 'flip-floppers' who we know have flopped back.

So far only Bus stop's personal opinion regarding the mutual exclusivity of someone going on about Jesus (a verifiable fact that Dylan has done this so AKA a Jesus-head/Jesus-Freak/Christian) and being a Jew (a verifiable fact I think). Show us an authority that says that this cannot really happen. Ttiotsw 11:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

On my own I honestly don't care about Dylan and I've tried to mention him as rarely as I can. His voice grates on my ears and I think he's even overrated as a songwriter. I would rather not include him in this list. However what I do want is a list most of us can agree with to break the deadlock. If that means I have to tolerate Larry Flynt or Dylan or even people with totally meaningless temporary conversions than that's what it means.--T. Anthony 11:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

T. Anthony -- If you "would rather not include him in this list" then why isn't that what you are saying? I am saying that I would rather not have him on the list.

I have the peculiar quality of arguing for what think is correct, taking context of course into consideration. The context, I think, is that of an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia has some peculiar requirements. An encyclopedia tries to avoid promoting a particular point of view, for instance. That is not peculiar to Misplaced Pages. That is true of most general use encyclopedias.

The reason, of course, why Bob Dylan should not be on the list, is because he is not a Christian, but is in fact a Jew. By way of further explanation, Judaism and Christianity are, by and large, distinct religions.

I have heard the arguments for syncretism but they are not demonstrably applicable to Bob Dylan's situation. What we have in Bob Dylan's situation is a brief period of a long time ago of explicit Christian language used (no evidence of formal conversion) and then a complete drop off in any Christian involvement for the next 27 years.

And in the intervening 27 years we have a clear involvement with the most severely observant Jews found anywhere. If the Lubovitch are not considered highly pious Jews, then no Jews are religious, and that is a pretty cynical view to take about one of the world's important and eminently valid religions. Bus stop 12:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to be realistic. I'm willing to accept a compromise to avoid a worse outcome or continued fighting. Also Misplaced Pages is not really an Encyclopedia. It serves multiple functions, including that of an Almanac. Hence encyclopedias would not list converts in any form, but such a list can be appropriate for some Almanacs or Misplaced Pages. Not related to this, but Misplaced Pages is also way more juvenile than any Encyclopedia would allow. It is heavily focused on anime or juvenile literature, List of Bleach Agent of the Shinigami arc episodes inspired enough work it became a featured list. I think your expectations are not entirely realistic. Although it has also been shown that other Encyclopedias say he converted.--T. Anthony 12:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hence encyclopedias would not list converts in any form- This is totally false. Encyclopedias have listed converts. For example the Jewish Encyclopedia, which compiled a list of Jewish converts to Christianity in 1905. . JJay 12:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of that, but I was thinking generalized encyclopedias.--T. Anthony 13:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

JJay and T. Anthony -- Let us cease obfuscating. Religion is taken seriously by many people. If a person is put on a list defined by religion they should be of that religion. No encyclopedia should take the step of mislabeling a person lightly. Bus stop 13:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to be realistic. I don't want to offend other religions, but some are indicating they find removing some names offensive to them as Christians. I'm working with others to find a balance that can please the most people. If it ends up displeasing you, that's the price I'm willing to pay. I just hope I don't have to and that you will become part of the process somehow.--T. Anthony 13:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Title Change?

Per T. Anthony's suggestion above, who is for renaming this article "List of notable people who converted to Christianity" so that the article's parameters are clearer? As is, it can go to either side (either people who are Christian or people who ever converted to Christianity). Drumpler 18:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes

• Drumpler 18:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• T. Anthony 18:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)(No matter which way the vote goes down)
• Yes, if it will end the madness about "naturally arising parameters" and other assorted gibberish. --JJay 20:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• John Carter 20:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC) - although I would favor changing all similar pages as per Nick's comments below
• C.Logan (As far as I'm concerned, it's not essential, but if it will expedite resolution, then I'm for it.)
• Cleo123 05:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC) (List of Notable People who converted to Christianity)
• Ttiotsw 06:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC) (Yup seems fine. I guess our struggle with words to fit concepts is what Wittgenstein would recognise but our use of 'ed makes the word a preterite and that is fairly common speech not an esoteric concept. Thus the event happened in the past. We cannot undo the existence of this event simply because the person has moved on from that one event any more than we cannot deny that our car had crashed because we got it repaired. Ttiotsw 06:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No

• Nick Graves 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC) (Proposed title is redundant, and fails to make clear that only people notable as converts are included. See alternative proposal below.)
• John Carter 20:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Sefringle 23:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC) (This is inconsistent with every other convert to religion X article)

No Contest

• zadignose 03:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC) - I have no objection to such a name change. I'm not really sure if it's necessary, nor do I know what is the perfect way to word the title, but I certainly wouldn't mind this proposed title change if it somehow made the matter even more clear.

Discussion

In my description above. Drumpler 18:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• Question - Would any similar pages with similar parameters be changed accordingly as well or not? John Carter 18:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think we should focus on this list for now. Nick Graves 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - No objections per se, but want to see that the various lists remain as parallel as possible. That was the reason for asking the questions. Having one specific list with a notably different name but basically the same parameters as some others would be something I would like to avoid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlordjohncarter (talk • contribs)
      • Comment - I've explained this below. I think similar articles should all be renamed as it shows a potential bias to include only living individuals of a given religion. Drumpler 19:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: The "notable" is redundant. It should be a given that all those listed are notable. I propose changing it to "List of people who converted to Christianity." "List of people who made notable conversions to Christianity." Nick Graves 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree with this proposal as it doesn't preclude anyone from adding their own names or others to the list. By using the tag "notable", it is clear that we are only talking about notable people. Drumpler 19:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The very fact that this is supposed to be an encyclopedia precludes that possibility. The vast majority of lists of people on Misplaced Pages do not have "notable" in the title for this reason. It is a pretty widely followed naming convention. The criterion for notability can be explained in the lead section if necessary. Having hordes of Joe Schmoes adding their own names to the list is a pretty far-fetched scenario that we needn't worry about. Nick Graves 19:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree the "notable" is redundant and I've tried to remove it from some such lists. However, for now, the notable seems to be standard on convert lists. True the rename makes it non-standard anyway, but I think the word "notable" should be dropped as a separate measure. A measure that would more directly discuss all such lists.--T. Anthony 03:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

True. They are supposed to be notable on Misplaced Pages either way. Drumpler 20:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is an important shift in meaning that I think has been missed. You are correct to point out that it is pretty standard for converts lists to be titled as "notable converts to X." That's actually not redundant, since it means they are notable as converts, not just as people. The title clarifies that some people who are not notable as converts are excluded from the list. If you are interested in following the convention for lists of converts as closely as possible, "List of people who made notable conversions to Christianity" is actually the better option. "List of notable people who converted to Christianity" is not only redundant, but it leaves open the possibility that people whose conversions weren't really notable would fall within the parameters of the list. That's counter to precedent and convention on lists of converts. Nick Graves 04:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd also accept that rename, mostly, but it reads a bit awkward. Also it almost sounds like it means people who converted to Christianity more than once. Which has happened. There were kings in Africa who'd say convert to Anglicanism, revert to paganism, and then convert to Methodism or something.--T. Anthony 04:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

How about "List of people who made a notable conversion to Christianity," or "List of people who notably converted to Christianity"? Too awkward? Ok, how about "List of people who became notable converts to Christianity, but who may or may not presently be Christians, or who may or may not have been Christians at the time of their death"? Just kidding, of course :-). The name you propose is fine, except for my niggle about the "notable" bit. Nick Graves 04:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I like "List of people who made a notable conversion to Christianity" okay. Could the proposal be changed to that? The other complaint is that the other lists aren't in sync with that. However that can happen in time. Although it seems like every time I edit List of Catholic converts, which is already named differently, it tells me they can't accept the edit due to a spamlink. They never give me a clue what link that is and I've tried removing almost every ".com" to find it. Oh well.--T. Anthony 05:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: It would not be done in order to make the article's parameters clearer. It would be done to include Bob Dylan among converts to Christianity, which would be a contrivance, because only three names out of two hundred names are not presently Christian or did not die as Christians. There are literally 203 names on the present List of notable converts to Christianity. If you change the name it won't be in order to make the "article's parameters clearer." That is quite bogus. Pease, let us be a bit honest at this point. We would be changing the article's title in order to have Bob Dylan on the list. Is that not correct? Would it be possible to own up to that fact? Bus stop 19:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

No this is not why I suggested such a rename at all. If you'll look I was not involved in the Dylan edit-war except to remove him a few times during the discussion. What I was trying to do is reconcile the name with the fact fact former converts, any former converts, are staying on the list. I'd like them gone, but it's been agreed they won't be. I am not interested in Dylan and this is the last time I'm telling you that.--T. Anthony 03:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I think this was already brought up once, but I'll bring it up again. The current name for this article (and I suppose articles similar to it) is misleading. "Converts" can imply present tense, which would mean that dead converts to Christianity would be out of the count. I don't think any editor has considered this as faulty parameters, though. However, editors have brought up a similar argument which precludes people who converted to the religion and then re-converted. In this case, a circumstance occurred which led to their departure from Christianity. Isn't death a circumstance? If said people were still alive, mightn't there be a chance that they would eventually end their Christian involvement? Why show favoritism for the dead, who can't formally renounce their previous faith, and not so for those who are still living?

My remarks might be interpreted as me being facetious, but I'm trying to prove a point. Their Christianity did make a significant impact on their lives. However, there's no evidence that, if they had lived longer, they would've continued in their faith. They were "notable Christians" for the duration of their lives, just as Dylan and other former well-known Christians were "notable Christians" as long as they continued to hold to that faith. So I believe that the living should be included with those "notable converts" because of the impact said religion made on their lives up until a predefined point. Otherwise, there's an inexplicable bias -- if Dylan were to die as a Christian, would he belong on this list then? In this sense, isn't it unfair to include people who may have rejected their Christianity later if death didn't get in the way?

I believe we need to throw out the bias and list people who have practiced Christianity, either living or dead, regardless if they've rejected the practice later (however, an explanation does need to be given if they did). It is for this reason that I also support the article name change above to "List of notable people who converted to Christianity". Again, the current name can imply present tense -- are the dead really Christians? Its easy to rest on theology and beliefs, but atheists might not agree with such argumentation. For purposes of Misplaced Pages, we need to say we don't know about the afterlife and not even enter it into the equation. In this case, we don't know whether or not they remain Christians and it would be silly to argue that one who dies as a Christian remains a Christian. Drumpler 19:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm now having alternate history theories after writing the above. ;) Would we even be discussing this if Dylan died in the late 70's, early 80's? ;) Drumpler 19:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: These are the parameters at the List of notable converts to Judaism. They are perfectly sensible. They are actually quite restrictive. Anyone who is not Jewish would not be on the list. The list thus has a clearly defined meaning. It doesn't malign anyone by including them among a group that they may have once dabbled in but which they decided against. Here are those parameters found at the List of notable converts to Judaism:

"This page is a list of Jews."

It goes on to say:

"This list of Jews should be restricted to individuals identified as Jews by reliable sources, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's verifiability and no original research policies. Any items not conforming to these policies may be removed immediately."

The List of notable converts to Christianity shouldn't be manipulating titles and otherwise trying to contrive parameters just to get one person onto this list. It is a pretty silly endeavor to be engaged in at what is supposed to be a fairly serious encyclopedia, and it is ultimately unfair to Bob Dylan. A Jew should not be portrayed as a Christian. Judaism and Christianity are two different religions, and I think we should respect the distinctions between the two. Don't forget that there are 200 other people on the List of notable converts to Christianity for whom the proposed change in title is irrelevant. Bus stop 19:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Please consider removing the numerous gentiles currently included on List of notable converts to Judaism. Judaism and Christianity are two different religions, and I think we should respect the distinctions between the two. According to that list's elaborate disclaimer:

most of these conversions (apart from the Biblical ones) are not recognized by Orthodox Judaism because the converted did not convert under Orthodox auspices, or by Orthodox and Conservative authorities because the conversions were not done in accord with halakha. In 2005, five present and former Chief Rabbis of Israel declared: Any such conversion, under its various names such as `Reform' or `Conservative,' has no validity, and anyone who undergoes such conversion is still a gentile in every respect."

The editors of List of notable converts to Judaism do not have the authority to override the Chief rabbis of Israel on the question of who is a Jew. Are these editors all rabbis schooled in the Talmud? No, they are not. The editors of List of notable converts to Judaism should not contrive parameters in order to include as many non-Jews as possible on the list. Some might view that as a forced conversion of Christians and that is really not kosher. We should not portray Christians as Jews when they are still Christians according to other Jews. --JJay 20:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

JJay -- Which names would you want to remove? Have you tried doing so? Why not? Please allow me to take this opportunity to cordially invite you to remove the names from the List of notable converts to Judaism that you feel are not Jewish. Just note in your edit summary that you are removing names that you feel are not Jewish, and you are doing so in accordance with the stated parameters for that list. These are them:

"This page is a list of Jews. This list of Jews should be restricted to individuals identified as Jews by reliable sources, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's verifiability and no original research policies. Any items not conforming to these policies may be removed immediately."

You've made the above complaint many times before. Please avail yourself of the readily available remedy for the problem you describe. Bus stop 22:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that List of notable converts to Judaism is not a list of Jews. Which names would you want to keep on that list? Have you tried getting the List of notable converts to Judaism to adhere to its naturally arising parameters? i.e. a list of people who came to Judaism by way of conversion, rather than a list of goyim rejected by leading authorities of Judaism. Have I mentioned that Judaism and Christianity are not the same religion and we should not portray Christians as Jews? Do you deny that Halakah is Jewish law? No, you do not. We should not make lists of converts to Judaism that includes Christians who masquerade as Jews while flouting the requirements of that religion. Rabbinical authorities have clearly stated, without any obfuscation or kangaroo court antics, the parameters for "conversions". These are them:

Any such conversion, under its various names such as `Reform' or `Conservative,' has no validity, and anyone who undergoes such conversion is still a gentile in every respect."

You have claimed many times before that the List of converts to Judaism is a List of Jews when it is actually contains many gentiles in every respect. As it stands today, only a meshugener or schmo would believe that the list of converts to Judaism is a list of Jews because wikipedia created a template that says this is a list of Jews. You are clearly not meshugee, so, I ask you, have you availed yourself of the readily available remedy for the problem you describe? No, you have not. This is supposed to be a fairly serious encyclopedia so I know you agree when I say that it is a pretty silly endeavor to manipulate templates and otherwise try to contrive Jewish law in order to create a list of non-Jews.--JJay 23:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

JJay -- Just remove the names that you feel do not belong on the List of notable converts to Judaism. If you don't want to address what you are describing to be a problem that bothers you then please stop your incessant complaining about it. Your rant is totally beside the point if you don't utilize the readily available remedy. Just remove the names. It's that simple. Bus stop 23:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Bus stop- Just stop repeatedly quoting a meaningless template that has nothing to do with this list, this discussion or Bob Dylan's conversion to Christianity. Your ranting about that template and incessant praise of a list of non-Jews that violates halakah is totally besides the point. Just focus on Bob Dylan's conversion to Christianity. It's that simple. --JJay 00:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that the names of anyone who did not have a lasting "conversion" should be removed. However, if a true consensus exists for the inclusion of such individuals on this list, I would like the article's title to be as clear cut as possible. For the record, I still do not believe that Dylan ever formally converted to Christianity, in point of fact. This is typical media spin and conjecture that has unfortuantely evolved over the decades to include a few affirmative statements. No evidence has been presented to support a departure from Judaism, only a fleeting adoption of some Christian principles. Regardless, I understand that Misplaced Pages is based upon reliance on secondary sources and will accept its inclusion until it can be proven otherwise. I have contacted someone who knows Bob, in the hopes that Dylan can be prevailed upon to make a clear public statement on this matter, that has caused so much discord for so many people. I'm not sure that he will - but at least an effort has been made on that front. Dylan's subsequent return to Judaism can be established through reliable sources, and that must be mentioned next to his name. Cleo123 06:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Wow that's really above and beyond the call of duty. I'm either impressed or a bit confused. I guess mostly impressed, I have an uncle who knows some minor actors but not any of them are real famous, that you have those kinds of connections. Although I have a feeling it won't accomplish anything it's still appreciated. I also appreciate your involvement in proposals and discussions. I was worried this was just never going to make progress.--T. Anthony 06:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

And I redirect you to my response just immediately above your own. How many of those people are dead? Drumpler 19:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Drumpler -- I don't think you are understanding my point. All this is about Bob Dylan. But Bob Dylan happens to be a Jew. Isn't it a little silly to change a list with 200 people on it just to try to justify including one person on it? Bob Dylan is just one person. And he is not even Christian. At least I think we should be honestly be discussing the reasons why we are considering doing this. We are not considering changing the name in order to make the parameters more clear, because the parameters already are perfectly clear for the other 200 people on this list. Bus stop 19:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I perfectly understand your point and it isn't all about Bob Dylan. There are a few other "former converts" on the article page. Also, isn't it likewise silly to attempt to have this article deleted just because of one person? To continually revert it and make accusations of anti-semitism because of one person? You've done plenty of that, Bus stop. I'm sure you are operating in good faith, but other editors (myself included) disagree with your proposition. Will you please accept the consensus, no matter how badly it offends you personally, so that we can move on? I've already decided that no matter the decision in the end, I would surely move on. Will you? Drumpler 19:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This discussion has basically been about one person, Bus stop, who has consistently refused to accept mediation of his opinion. I have requested above that upon the conclusion of the current collection of opinion this matter be referred to either the Mediation Committee or Arbitration Committee, preferably the former but the latter if that party refuse mediation again. John Carter 19:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I hate to sound ruthless, but after a pretty consistent track record, I'm for making WP:ArbCom the next step. I don't think any mediator should have to go through what the last two went through. Drumpler 19:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should follow defined procedures. Also, of course, if the mediation is rejected, ArbCom would be the only place for further discussion. Considering Bus stop has already refused to sign on to MedCom involvement, I think the likelihood of his/her doing so again has to be considered, though, in which case the only remaining option would be ArbCom. John Carter 19:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Didn't we already follow procedures the first two times? Drumpler 20:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but for informal mediation, which is a separate thing from MedCom. If as seems to me at least possible, the matter might have to ultimately go to ArbCom anyway, I'd like them to see that all reasonable steps have been exhausted before referring it to them. John Carter 20:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say that WP:ARBCOM is going to be your next logical step here if a consensus that everyone can live with isn't reached.--Isotope23 16:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to note Cleo's approval of renaming the article, unless of course s/he revoked it since his/her last post. If I understand correctly, this person is Jewish and doesn't seem to find the renaming the least bit anti-Semitic (at least that I know of). Drumpler 19:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits to Bob Dylan article

I thought you all might be interested in noting the recent activity of some of the members of the discussion here on the page above, in order here, here, and here. I have recently started a thread on the talk page here regarding this activity. John Carter 20:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I have responded to John Carter's latest bit of harrassment on the Bob Dylan talk page. It is unfortunate that this user continues to post misleading information that is counterproductive to achieving any sort of amicable resolution. Cleo123 05:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Weighing In Again

I wasn't going to point this out, because somebody would inevitably accuse me of bad faith, being uncivil, etc., but I think at this point it's moot. I want to point out to the group that User:Bus stop has stopped responding to you in any coherent way. Whatever anyone says to Bus stop- whether they agree with him or not- is responded to with something like, "Actually, that's incorrect. We can't contrive parameters, because, you see, Dylan is not Jewish, and this is a list of Christians."

I think it would be entirely fair of you lot to just kind of drop the argument with him. You were very close to establishing consensus, though I think the straw poll was kind of an unnecessary step and will affect your overall credibility if you go before ArbCom. A very agreeable compromise has been set before you by a couple of your own, and it looks to me like you've got only one user on each side (ignoring Bus stop, for the moment, since he's not really conversing with the group so much as repeating himself in a babbling sort of way) who's not willing to take that compromise. What's the holdup?

Bus stop: It would be a lot easier to work with you if everything you say didn't come off like, "talk to the hand." --24.16.156.223 00:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

(Note: The preceding IP address was actually Moralis, who doesn't pay enough attention to notice that he's timed out >.<) --Moralis (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So much for the unbiased mediator. Bus stop 01:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, after an unnecessarily dramatic departure, which left everyone hanging, it would appear that she/he has returned only to take a few more uncivil jabs at Bus stop. Moralis chose to leave the discussion and close the mediation. We have managed to move forward and make progress without her/him. It is inappropriate for her/him to re-enter the discussion at this juncture offering criticisms under the apparent guise of authority. Cleo123 05:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The question is a good one, though. If consensus has seemingly been established except for the exception of one editor who repeatedly flouts wikipedia rules such that he has been blocked three times for his edits to articles relating to this subject, why not go with the existing consensus of those who actually have followed policy in this discussion? John Carter 01:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm agreed. We should just go forward with it. Also, Bus stop, would the "unbiased mediator" be so unbiased in your mind if he had agreed with you? Or is the article only allowed to be edited as you dictate? Drumpler 01:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Good question. I guess that it's natural for a person to point out bias when it's 'against' him, and consider it merely a 'mark of sensibility' when the bias works in his favor. I'm speaking in general terms, but some might consider the idea applicable here.--C.Logan 02:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

To Bus stop. Moralis is no longer the mediator. Sadly I think s/he is making a valid point. I tried to include you in various proposals and polls where you could add your voice for removing Dylan. Cleo responded to some of these, why didn't you? I really want you to be in a solution, but you seem totally unwilling to bend or compromise. Or to get over your obsession with Dylan. If you end up as the only hold-out then, sadly, I think some action wiull have to occur. Please please don't do that. Just try to accept what you can't change, at least not for now, no matter how hard.--T. Anthony 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I am no longer the mediator here, and regardless, suggesting that this group should follow consensus is hardly biased. My point overall does not support one position or the other. My point is that Bus stop has gotten out of control. While the rest of you have moved on with the conversation and tried to focus on the larger issue, Bus stop is still stuck on Dylan, and more importantly, hasn't actually responded to anything the rest of the group has said for ages now.

Bus stop, you've discovered a couple of buzz words, like "contrived", "parameters", and "offensive." And you use them in an authoritative way, when you haven't got any more authority than anyone else. As has been previously stated, there's a big difference between "we do not" and "I don't think we should."

It's very difficult to take an editor seriously who responds to everything with the same speech, roughly worded: "This is a list of Christians. Dylan is not a Christian. Stop trying to contrive parameters to make Dylan fit on this list. He does not fit on this list. He is not a Christian." If I can make your argument for you, your argument is stale. You've invested too much emotion on this. Everyone else is willing to compromise, whereas you won't move forward, because everyone else, in your mind, is wrong. The bottom line: whether or not you're sure what's going on here is "wrong," policy doesn't prohibit it, so consensus must dictate the result.

What you're doing now doesn't come off as discussing, or even arguing. It comes off as stubborn, incoherent, and impersonal. It's time to become a part of the conversation or leave the issue alone. --Moralis (talk) 16:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A Plea For Some "Christianity"

Moralis, "suggesting that this group should follow consensus is hardly biased?" I'll tell you what appears to be biased. It seems biased for a mediator, who is supposed to be neutral and impartial, to engage in personal attacks against participants in a discussion that they are supposed to be mediating. It seems quite biased for that same mediator to abruptly close the debate and post false reasons for that closure on the mediation board. It is strikingly biased for that same mediator to then return to the discussion only to launch more personal attacks and then cast a vote! Bus stop is "out of control"??? Please...

Had you taken the time to read the history, you might realize that Bus stop's use of the word "we" is, undoubtedly, a play on C.Logan and User:Warlordjohncarter's repeated use of similar phraseology earlier in the debate. I do not see Bus stop using an "authoritative tone" - that is your subjective opinion. It is always best not to impose your own tone on Internet communications. It is easy to misread another's comments when you read them with a negative or hostile tone in mind. An assumption of good faith would be preferable. Bus stop is entitled to his opinion. You may not "like it" - but he is not required to reverse his opinion, simply because it might make life easier for you or anyone else.

I have worked with Bus stop on another article and I know him to be a fair and reasonable editor, who has engaged in compromise in the past on a contentious article. He has a history of working successfully with others to reach a consensus. I have little doubt that editors who have worked with him on other articles would also speak well of him. This is an unique situation in which this editor has been repeatedly harrassed and abused over an extended period of time, right from his very first edit to this article. When you box someone into a corner, it is unreasonable to expect movement from that individual.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that Bus stop is only acting out of a conviction to ethical principles. I know that he is not trying to be what you and others seem to see as disruptive. Indeed, he recently stepped out of the conversation for a while, in what would appear to be, an attempt to "cool off". He has posted much less frequently to the discussion, in recent times, and he seems to have toned down his statements quite a bit - yet, he is more harshly criticized than ever!

There are a number of editors involved with this discussion who have focused their work on Misplaced Pages, almost exclusively, on Christian and/or religious projects. I often wonder if they are somehow struggling under the misguided notion that they are somehow "doing the right thing" by Christianity. I think if every editor, truly, searched their souls in an honest way (knowing "God" knows your every thought) we would all have to acknowlege that there is some question as to whether or not this man actually underwent a formal conversion to Christianity. Do they really think that Jesus would condone their behavior in this matter? Do they think that Jesus wants them to misrepresent facts and attack others who have the fortitude and spiritual strength to stand up to them? There is no evidence to suggest that Dylan ever left Judaism, only that, for a time, he embraced some Christian beliefs. Yes, there are some "verifiable" sources that we can use and abuse to push our point of view past policy and win the debate - but is that the right thing to do? Is that the moral thing to do? Is that the Christian thing to do? Bob Dylan clearly "returned" to Judaism - not just Judaism - but Orthodox Judaism. Am I the only editor who has given thought to the fact that this man's Jewish grandchildren and their children may, one day, have to see their grandfather's name on a list of Christian Converts on Misplaced Pages?

Indeed, at the outset of this debate some significant attempts were made to make the article as misleading as possible. A great example would be placement of the "This is a list of Christians Tag". This man and his family have a right of privacy, which I believe has been violated by editors on this forum. I think that the mediator has misinterpretted policy and blatently ignored the law - which stands above any policy Misplaced Pages wants to dream up. Rather than interpretting the policy in a conservative manner regarding a living person, this group of editors have chosen to place Misplaced Pages at risk, so that their own individual points of view can prevail. They have placed their emotional needs above what is in the best interests of the Wikimedia Foundation and they apparently have no compassion or sympathy for this man and his family.

Worn down by the constant barrage of personal attacks, ongoing harrassment and pure evil of User:Warlordjohncarter and others, I have decided to try and "go along" with the "compromise". Moralis has indicated that she/he sees Bus stop as being "stubborn, incoherent, and impersonal." She has also intimated that he is somehow wrong for believing he is right. I wonder if he is not the only person that is truly trying to do what is right. Surely, he has paid a considerable price for having the courage of his convictions. It is easy to "go along with the crowd." It takes a special, courageous person to speak the truth, even when that truth is not what others "would like" to hear. The annonimity of the Internet is a dangerous thing. People say and do things that they wouldn't do in "real life" because they somehow feel that they are not "personally accountable" for their actions. God does see this. God knows who each and every one of the editors involved with this discussion is. He knows your thoughts and what is truly motivating your actions and one day each & every one of us will answer for our actions in this matter. If there is one thing to be learned from Dylan's religious journey, perhaps, it is that we should be accepting and open to the religious beliefs of others. Perhaps, his "conversion" only exists as part of God's greater plan to foster understanding and respect between Christians and Jews. Sadly, it appears to have had the opposite effect on Misplaced Pages.

WIth that said, I would ask every editor on this page to truly examine his own conscience and reconsider removing all non-Christians from the list. These "conversions" are already adequately covered in the biographies of the notable people currently effected by the list. Is it really that important to Christianity, or to Misplaced Pages, to include potentially misleading or factually incorrect information on this list that could negatively impact the lives of living people? Or are you just interested in "beating Bus Stop" and you just don't care that innocent people and their families are being dragged down in the frey? Cleo123 06:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

With that said, I would like to open a new poll. Please, agree or oppose the following: In the interest of making all "Convert Lists" on Misplaced Pages consistent with one another, it is agreed that no "fleeting conversions" will be included on this list in the interest of respecting the legal rights of living people and their descendents.

• Agreed Cleo123 06:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Soapbox material does not belong on talk pages. I am not Christian and I don't think it ethical to make an appeal to Christianity when it comes to Misplaced Pages guidelines and rules. Likewise, you didn't cite a Wiki policy in that last paragraph -- you cited an article, an article every bit as stable as this own page. I redirect you to this statement in BLP (emphasis mine):

In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Misplaced Pages biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out.

I am sure your motives are pure, but please make an appeal to Misplaced Pages rules and guidelines, not how you think a Christian should act. I came to this article after a request on the WP:EAR page and found Bus stop's behaviour repugnant using my own reasoning. Likewise, the claim that Dylan only dabbled in Christianity is a belief, a belief upheld by a minority of editors on Misplaced Pages. The facts, however, are documented by reliable third-party sources and in the end, that's all that matters. Drumpler 07:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

johncarter, I'm sorry. I thought you were an active participant in the prior discussion regarding WP:BLP policy. I guess, you weren't paying attention, so I will gladly restate those policies for you. The "article" I cited was the law which I beleive trumps your misinterpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. Regardless, here are what I believe to be the applicable sections of policy:

Presumption in favor of privacy

Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy. In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. When writing about a person who is only notable for one or two events, including every detail, no matter how well-sourced, can lead to problems. In the best case, this can simply lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, this can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic.

Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia. -Jimbo Wales

Biased or malicious content

Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

The subject matter of this article is Christianity. To date, no one has demonstrated why or how Bob Dylan is relevant or notable to Christianity as a whole. Has he made some sort of notable contribution to this religion in his breif 2 year exploration that I am unaware of?

Use of categories

Main article: Misplaced Pages:Categorization of people

Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for the category must be made clear by the article text. The article must state the facts that result in the use of the category tag and these facts must be sourced. Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:

The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question; The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources. Caution should be used in adding categories that suggest the person has a poor reputation. See Invasion of privacy#False light.

As I have previously stated, I believe that the special provision regarding self identification applies not only to categories, but to lists. There is little or no difference between calling someone a homosexual on a category tag or on a list. Legally, they would appear to be one in the same in terms of labeling the private preferences of individuals. It should be quite obvious to any reader that considering the explicit wording that mirrors the law, as written - that these policies were crafted to protect Misplaced Pages from potential legal issues. For that reason, these policies should be interpretted as conservatively as possible where living people are concerned. Misplaced Pages is a legitimate publication and its amateur staff must take a conservative editorial stance when dictated by law. Cleo123 08:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I second Drumpler's statements, and I'd like to reiterate that the 'appeal to Jesus' is a really weak tactic- you attempt to combine your perspective on the discussion with the personal beliefs of others. The attempt just comes off as a hollow ploy, and may be rather offensive to Christian editors who feel that they are doing nothing wrong in following guidelines and presenting information which is available to the public either way- I doubt anyone feels that Jesus opposes the reporting of verifiable information. As for non-Christian editors, I'm sure they couldn't care less about such an appeal.

From what I can see concerning the rest of the comment, about 75-80% percent of it is 'Bus stop promotional material', and I admire you for working so hard to paint such a saintly picture of an editor- although I doubt it's fooling anyone. You've attempted to convince me that John Carter may be a wolf in sheep's clothing; an editor who operates in a negative manner and should not be trusted or commended- and yet here you are, arguing vehemently for an editor who is in no way more commendable than John Carter, and has been drastically more disruptive and counterproductive. I've seen little wrong done on John Carter's part, and I acknowledge that he commits errors in judgment just like the rest of us have- and I'm not posting 7,000-byte comments in defense of him.

The remaining part of your comment deals mostly with 'law'-related things. I'm not sure why the case would be brought against Misplaced Pages before, say, Encyclopedia Britannica or any of the widely-published biographies, all of which contain explicit terminology regarding Dylan's conversion to Christianity. The legal buzz surrounding these well-known sources is mysteriously non-existent. Either way, I'm no expert, but it does seem that things like this make the possibility of bringing a suit successfully against Misplaced Pages rather remote, as has been argued before.

On another note, I find it unusual that you often point out the lengthiness of some of my comments (which in many cases is simply the result of direct quoting from the above comment), while simultaneously pumping out behemoths like the above. Please, try to keep your comments short. We've just cleared this place out, and there's no need to start breeding Mega-sections again.--C.Logan 08:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible idea for resolving this voting thing

Since we seem to be split on two options at present regarding the list organization, and the voting in one form or another has been going on for weeks now, here is a possible idea: how about if we list disputed or former converts under religion with an entry that says see below and links to a separate section at the end of the article. Something like:

Bob Dylan - Musician (see below)

This would seem to me to have the advantages of both ideas. --JJay 17:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought we'd basically agreed to a rename and keeping the section for former converts. What happened?--T. Anthony 17:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

We did agree to rename, but I'm not aware we have agreed to the separate section. if that's the case, why the new vote? --JJay 18:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right we hadn't. I just meant that was the way the two was looking. I do think we're on the way to a resolution, either way the one vote goes down.--T. Anthony 18:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Tiebreaker (moved)

The proposed time limit of 36 hours (to which no-one raised objections) has passed. There are two options tied with 6 votes each. Please choose only one of the following:

Note I moved it down here for visibility--T. Anthony 18:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

List former converts in a separate section of this article

• Nick Graves 02:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• Drumpler 03:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC) -- even though I think I voted for the second one in the last vote, I now can see where lazy people might get the wrong idea if they don't read the footnotes (I'm in that list).
• T. Anthony 03:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• zadignose 03:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

List all converts under former religion. Use footnotes for any relevant information related to religious practice

• JJay 17:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Moralis (talk) 18:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC) -- I figure if I'm not mediating anymore I might as well throw my two cents in. Of the two solutions offered here, I think this is less cumbersome, and easier on the reader.
• John Carter 19:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC) - primarily because if you thought someone were a convert to Christianity from Foo, you probably wouldn't think to look in the separate reverts section, and thus might make duplicate entries. If that problem could be addressed, maybe by placing that section first(?), I wouldn't have any serious objections.
• Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Tiebreaker discussion

Ummm.... excuse me, JJay, but cutting and pasting four votes for other people is not an appropriate way to approach this. Should I put them back, or would you like to do the honors. They're certainly able to make their own judgment at this point. zadignose 17:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• The new vote is hidden in the middle of an endless mass of rehashing. The constant posting on this page is scaring people off from participation. I'll remove those votes if we set a new deadline for this vote and move this latest poll to the end of the page. --JJay 17:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes but some of these people had also voted for "List former converts in a separate section of this article" in the above vote. To list them as just for the alternate, now, is misleading if they haven't said that. That's why I removed C. Logan. However I'm moving this tiebreaker if that's okay.--T. Anthony 18:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    • So what exactly are we supposed to do? John Carter 18:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
      • I'd guess see if the people placed under List all converts under former religion. Use footnotes for any relevant information related to religious practice want to be placed there. I'm thinking you are a "yes I do." The only one I removed was C. Logan as, in the earlier poll, he placed his name in both.--T. Anthony 18:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The following people had put their names behind List all converts under former religion. Use footnotes for any relevant information related to religious practice in the previous poll/vote.

• C.Logan (though this is a return back to square one, it's worth credit- I place my vote here cautiously.)
• This page lists people who converted to Christianity not people who are now Christians which is something Bus Stop never understood. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• John Carter 20:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• Teapotgeorge 17:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Do any of you four wish to vote/support that on the tiebreaker?--T. Anthony 18:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't support the idea of it being in footnotes, although a short description after the name would be more than sufficient. I can't actually support the other possibility either, though, because of the confusion it might cause. So I guess I get listed as favoring neither option. John Carter 18:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A short description after the name plus footnotes is what I had in mind. The phrasing for the Bob Dylan entry was being discussed and had support prior to the latest round of mediation. The discussion is here: Talk:List_of_notable_converts_to_Christianity/Archive_4#Potential_phrasing_of_Dylan_entry. --JJay 19:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. John Carter 19:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll be placing a vote, but I'd like to consider a few things before I make my decision- I feel that one decision may make more sense, but might not settle things as well. I'm a little pressed for time, so I'll vote tonight when I have some time to weigh it out.--C.Logan 19:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

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