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User talk:Noroton/Archive to June 2007

List of people from Connecticut

Hi Norton, and thanks for posting that note on my page, but I think you have the wrong guy, I haven't contributed since the 21st May... Whiskey in the Jar 21:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah right, I se now. I didn't actually realise, at the time, that it was anything more than a vandal. I have been out for a while after all! Well I hope the problem's all sorted, and if you need a hand, just holler. Thanks matey, and happy trails... Whiskey in the Jar 21:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Gettysburg Review

Nice article, but its going to be hard to defend without references. I removed the prod, but I expect to see it at AfD. DGG 06:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Klan in Fairfield County

Noroton,

I've reverted your edit to Fairfield County. As it stands, no other county in Connecticut has any history in its article. And Fairfield has none either, save the long Klan section that you've added over five different editor's reverts over the last year. Please explain on the talk page why you believe this belongs in the article. Jd2718 00:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that you've reverted a typo I corrected in another article . I understand that you are unhappy with our disagreement over Fairfield County, Connecticut, but intentionally introducing even minor errors into an article is not acceptable. It is also surprising to see you at an article unrelated to your usual edits, but where I was editing earlier today. I am going off-line. Perhaps you can undo the edit before you sign off. Jd2718 00:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Since it was a heading, the edit summary showed the previous version, rather than the new. I have done the same thing. In the meantime, I went to the Wikiproject Connecticut to see if I could solicit some comments. If you have other suggestions about bringing in other editors, I'd be happy to help. Good night. Jd2718 02:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Please revert this edit. You added the same section twice. I'd also like to ask you to be more mindful of civility in your edit summaries in the future. When you accuse unknown editors (me?) with a summary like "add back section surreptitiously removed" you create an atmosphere of recrimination, rather than productive editing. Jd2718 01:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious from the "history" feature who makes what edit, so accusing you wasn't really possible unless you run Anomebot2:

See also:

When I saw the history section without the Klan subsection, and when I saw the Klan section removed by something called Anomebot2 which talked about some geographic coordinates in the edit summary, I had reason to call it surreptitious. If a mistake, let the responsible editor explain it. Noroton 01:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Except Anomebot removed nothing. Only I removed the section. Twice. With a clear edit summary. And both times you reverted. Why are you writing: "When I saw the history section without the Klan subsection..." ? You were just being paranoid; the section was there. And your paranoia led to an accusatory edit summary "add back section surreptitiously removed" and now, instead of a quick self-correction, you are trying to argue that somehow you were justified? 11:24, Jd2718 20 June 2007

Clayton Middle/High School

I don't see how the additions do anything to increase the school's notability. Corvus cornix 16:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Existence is not notability. None of the additions to the page change my mind that the school is different from any other run of the mill school. Corvus cornix 16:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for improving this article so that it meets WP standards! --Butseriouslyfolks 16:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Board Candidacy

Hi! I'm leaving you this note because we've had extensive and/or productive interaction over the course of my time on this Wiki. I (yep, little ol' Jouster!) am running for election to the Wikimedia Board of Trustees. I would greatly appreciate it if you would please take a look at my submission of candidacy, and consider endorsing me, as that is a requirement for me to stand for election.

If you have any questions or concerns about this notice, please don't hesitate to poke me on my Talk page. If you object to this solicitation for endorsement, please do not hesitate to remove it from your Talk page with my apologies; it will not appear again.

I look forward to serving you all on the Board! Jouster  (whisper) 18:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your endorsement! However, Meta doesn't automatically link back to your account on this Misplaced Pages; each WikiProject has its own user namespace. As such, in order to endorse, you need to add a link to your Meta page from your user page here, and a link to your user page here from your Meta user page (thus confirming that you are not merely a pretender to your distinguished name!). This is easier than it sounds; just add something along the lines of "I am ]" to your Meta page, and "I am ]" to your User page here. Sorry for the confusion over requirements, and thank you again for your support! Jouster  (whisper) 02:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ha! "Eendorsement identification folderol", eh? Can't remember the last time I saw that word used in conversation. You win the Make-Jouster-Giggle barnstar! Now to go make it. /me fires up MSPaint.... ;) Jouster  (whisper) 02:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

School improvement and advocacy

I want to thank you for all of the work you've done on behalf of school articles over the recent past. While I still find the creation of the AfD for Clayton Middle/High School three minutes after the article's creation inherently inappropriate, I thank you for your getting the ball rolling to expand the article. As you have stated, high schools have the verifiable and reliable sources available to establish notability; sometimes you just have to dig deeper to find them. I've been focusing on New Jersey schools and adding what I can upon creation and over time to further establish notability. In a world in which collaboration on establishing notability was truly a goal, new articles for schools -- where the presumption should be that notability can be established -- should be given a reasonable amount of time to grow and expand to satisfy the consensus of notability, without being forced to expand an article with a gun pointed at one's head. As long as we can add independent sources for school articles, these articles will be accepted and will pass AfD if submitted. I sincerely hope that you can find the time to keep up your contributions on the school front, improving new and existing articles, and helping to do what it takes to turn the tide on other school AfDs by improving articles nominated for deletion. Keep it up. My sincerest thanks for your efforts. Please feel free anytime to let me know via my talk page or via Wiki email if I can help you with anything. Alansohn 02:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for your note. I've admired the work you've done at AfD:Schools, too (and especially the improvements you've made to school articles). I think ultimately the best thing we can do is make our arguments in the deletion discussions and, when we have some support, get enough support to change WP:ORG or WP:N to recognize that high schools, like hospitals and communities, are just inherently notable. A while back, we seem to have had more support for that (although I could be wrong, I think the current group of people at the deletion discussions is less supportive). I think when we gather enough support again, we should make that move, and I'll contact you when the time seems ripe.

• Too often, I let arguments on Misplaced Pages get under my skin. I think we should both be careful of that, because we're more likely to garner support over time if we avoid it. I have to say though, you were baited (purposefully or not) with that three-minute deletion. I do think that our position is the way Misplaced Pages is trending over time, in fact, I think it's inevitable that as Misplaced Pages grows, all high schools and most other schools will have their own articles. We can afford to be patient. Noroton 02:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • While I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the three-minute AfD was purposeful, we need to start documenting a better case that shows that there is a strong consensus on school notability, especially as it relates to high schools with meaningful sources. I don't think that we'll get any consensus on guideline for what makes a school notable, but an effort that documents school AfDs and shows that school articles with reliable sources have been overwhelmingly successful at surviving AfDs, would help in any subsequent AfD for any other similar school article. Again, I truly appreciate hearing another strong voice in support of school articles on Misplaced Pages. Alansohn 03:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Fairfield County, Connecticut

The short answer to your question on my talk page is "no". Each of the two edits , made to this article by the Anomebot changed only geodata tags and whitespace layout, as designed, as can be seen by inspecting the relevant diffs. Please check your facts before making unwarranted accusations. -- The Anome 08:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Draft notability proposal on Schools etc.

I have become aware of this draft proposal by independent means, and while I understand the good intent and meaning being expressed within this draft proposal you are working on, I don't necessarily agree with the premise. The issue of notability on Misplaced Pages is a big one, and one which has been thrashed out after many years of discussion and community consensus. To simply give blanket notability to a group of institutions is inherently bad, and would not sit well within the context of WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, and others. The standard for notability generally requires that the article subject has been the subject of multiple independent articles demonstrating the notability of the organisation, through works, deeds, results, or lack thereof which leads to the occurrence of a notable incident.

Speaking in the context of WP:RS, if the organisation is notable it should not be a problem to gather significant materials which meet both WP:N and WP:V. Granted, some of the core information about the article subject may be from primary sources, but these in the spirit of relevant policies should not be the sole basis to which notability is established, particularly when placed in the context of issues raised at WP:WEASEL where it is common for article subjects to make themselves sound better than they actually may be in self-published materials such as admissions prospectuses, marketing materials, etc. When looking at the specific issues of schools which you are focused on, you have to look at what makes a notable school. You also need to consider the fact that no proposal for defining the notability requirements for schools has ever made it up in the community, particularity proposals such as WP:SCHOOL (being the best attempt so far) which despite making reasonable attempts to strictly define what makes such an institution notable have never received enough community support who have instead chosen to default such issues back to WP:CORP which is the standard bearer in notability cases for schools at the present moment.

While I understand you are trying to make a reasonable effort to improve WP regarding issues you are strongly involved in, you need to realise that there has been many attempts by many others before you to do so, none of which have ever been successful. If you can find a way to build reasonable community agreement regarding notability criteria for such institutions, then I wish you the best of luck with your efforts in that endeavour. Thewinchester 13:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Response to Winchester

Thanks for your two-cents. Although it was unsolicited, and a draft is just that -- a draft -- I appreciate your interest and help. Here's a somewhat detailed response to your points. I'm copying your message and sticking in my responses after each of your points:

I have become aware of this draft proposal by independent means, and while I understand the good intent and meaning being expressed within this draft proposal you are working on, I don't necessarily agree with the premise. The issue of notability on Misplaced Pages is a big one, and one which has been thrashed out after many years of discussion and community consensus.

Actually, the standards can change and have changed even recently to some degree. Several months ago, "educational institutions" were not part of WP:ORG. Before that, a section on schools was in that guideline. Other ideas come and go, some get put into guidelines, some get taken out. These guidelines aren't ancient, they aren't sacred and they aren't unchangeable.

To simply give blanket notability to a group of institutions is inherently bad, and would not sit well within the context of WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, and others.

You're treating guidelines like sacred texts. We Wikipedians make the policy. There is no such thing as an "inherently bad" policy. The policy is good or bad for reasons alone. We can discuss and debate those reasons.

The standard for notability generally requires that the article subject has been the subject of multiple independent articles demonstrating the notability of the organisation, through works, deeds, results, or lack thereof which leads to the occurrence of a notable incident.

Speaking in the context of WP:RS, if the organisation is notable it should not be a problem to gather significant materials which meet both WP:N and WP:V.

I don't think that's true. It is beyond dispute that every single high school in the United States, for instance, generates multiple reports from independent sources (newspapers, other government bodies such as state Departments of Education, etc.) that are reliable. The problem is that they aren't always available online. Pick out a high school from the archived deletion debates, one where the article was deleted. Go to Google News and type in the name of that school in quotes. If you don't get at least two news articles about that school that would meet WP:N, go to Google Archives and you will surely get the articles, although they'll cost money to access. If the articles aren't online, it is extremely safe to assume they have been written and are in some library or other archives. We should not have to wait for someone to find them when (1) there is adequate proof that the school or other entity that I address EXISTS (unlike other subjects of articles, which is one important reason why we have WP:N); (2) it is obvious that there is basic information available from both every state Education Department (because they must generate reports on schools under the U.S. No Child Left Behind Act) and from the website of the school district itself (similar reasoning applies to the other entities I mention: hospitals, for instance). The current rules don't address the fact that the information we have at hand is solid enough to start articles with, often quite substantial articles.

Here's another important point about the availability of information: In poorer communities where there isn't as much advertising revenue, there are fewer newspapers covering schools and they have less of a presence on the Internet. Often the schools themselves have less of a presence on the Web as well. Therefore information, while it is published by independent, reliable sources, is less available. This introduces a bias in which institutions in wealthier areas are more likely to meet WP:N even though institutions in poorer areas will come extremely close to meeting notability standards, and even though the information that is available on the Web and elsewhere is, in fact, reliable enough on which to base a good Misplaced Pages article. Given the continued expansion of the Internet (and of Misplaced Pages and the number of Wikipedians), I'm sure this won't be a problem forever. I just don't want to wait years to have to revive articles about high schools that were previously deleted. Each time that happens, an administrator will have to approve creation of an article on a subject previously deleted. This will discourage those articles from being recreated. This is a pernicious result of our current policy.

Granted, some of the core information about the article subject may be from primary sources, but these in the spirit of relevant policies should not be the sole basis to which notability is established, particularly when placed in the context of issues raised at WP:WEASEL where it is common for article subjects to make themselves sound better than they actually may be in self-published materials such as admissions prospectuses, marketing materials, etc.

You mention "admissions prospectuses, marketing materials" which is important, because the focus of those guidelines and policies is more on nonpublic organizations that have more freedom to lie about themselves and exaggerate than public entities do. Public entities are far less likely to be in the business of selling themselves, lying and exaggerating. They are subject to public scrutiny through the news media, other organizations, other government regulatory agencies and the Freedom of Information Act, making most of their internal documents public. They have strong incentives not to go so far as to lie. And don't, in an abstract way, believe that WP:N and WP:V are anything but broad, practical tools for trying to tamp down the overly positive information that Misplaced Pages presents on many subjects. In the real world, this idea of mine is not going to change content that much -- it will instead serve to keep some articles from being deleted. The articles can still be about as neutral as they are now. To some degree, a some articles will remain (that would otherwise be deleted or never started) that rely on the subject for too much information for too long a period. That's the downside. The upside is that we will retain articles about more subjects, and those articles will still present accurate (if incomplete) information about those subjects. Remember that most Misplaced Pages articles do just that: present accurate if incomplete information about their subjects. I see benefits here that don't involve a great falling off of standards or a slippery slope of any sort leading to a general relaxation of standards, which I think would be the two biggest dangers of a proposal like this.

When looking at the specific issues of schools which you are focused on, you have to look at what makes a notable school. You also need to consider the fact that no proposal for defining the notability requirements for schools has ever made it up in the community, particularity proposals such as WP:SCHOOL (being the best attempt so far) which despite making reasonable attempts to strictly define what makes such an institution notable have never received enough community support who have instead chosen to default such issues back to WP:CORP which is the standard bearer in notability cases for schools at the present moment. While I understand you are trying to make a reasonable effort to improve WP regarding issues you are strongly involved in, you need to realise that there has been many attempts by many others before you to do so, none of which have ever been successful.

The idea of not doing something because other efforts have failed would end progress in every area. We must try.

If you can find a way to build reasonable community agreement regarding notability criteria for such institutions, then I wish you the best of luck with your efforts in that endeavour. Thewinchester

I wrote up the proposal quickly and you responded rather quickly. Everything is in flux -- changeable and tailorable. I appreciate your taking the time, even though I disagree with much of what you say. I'd be interested in what you think of my responses. Please feel free to intersperse your own reactions with mine here, if you think the effort is worthwhile. Noroton 15:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alton C. Crews Middle School

Excellent catch! I think that the article title's use of underscores interfered with my Google News/Archive search, and led me to falsely assume that sources were not available. The Intel award is prima facie evidence of notability, and I agree that there is more than enough sources to establish notability, even for folks like our new friend from down under, User:Thewinchester, author of the WP:SCHOOLCRUFT article. Do you want to make the changes now or later? You can reach me via wiki email from my user talk page if you want to discuss these school notability issues further. Alansohn 17:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• I'll add the Intel one and maybe one other. If you have time, I'll leave the rest to you. I also took out the names of the teachers. Noroton 17:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed that teh Crews article needed a major pruning. In a bizarre coincidence, I had just created an article for the Intel Schools of Distinction award a few days ago, based on the 2007 winners, and had started to create articles for some of the schools. As to Crews, even with the addition, a user copy of the expanded article should be created in the event that the AfD for the article is closed as delete based on votes predicated on the pre-improved version. I will add these 16 winners to the Intel Schools of Distinction article and add as appropriate to existing articles, and consider creation of articles for schools that don't yet have articles. Alansohn 17:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you 100% re open mindedness. However, I don't think this article is there yet. I'm looking at one solid reliable source, and it appears that article is primarily about the teacher and the trip, and that the school is incidental. There are no citations to newspaper articles about the school winning the Intel award. I point this out not because I question whether the award was received, but because I am not convinced of the notability of the award. While it may be rare, scarcity does not demonstrate worth. It's certainly not on the level of a Blue Ribbon. In fact, the Intel award article (which is albeit new) only cites to one reliable source, and it's a newspaper reporting on a local school winning the award, not an article on the award program itself. Don't get me wrong -- the article is clearly much better now than it was at the start of the AfD. It just hasn't crossed the WP:N threshold yet as far as I'm concerned. --Butseriouslyfolks 19:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm relying on WP:N notability, not a concept of fame or noteworthiness. All I saw in the award article was one independent article about the award. (I'm disregarding the self-generated Intel and Scholastic press releases for notability purposes, as they are not independent.) So I don't see the award as notable, and therefore winning it would not per se confer notability upon a school. Turning to the school, we have one newspaper article about a teacher that may or may not constitue significant coverage of the school, and the press release about the maybe notable, maybe nonnotable award, which is I suppose independent of the school but not independent of the awarder, which is affiliated with the school by virtue of the award. Taken together, I don't see that as "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", as required by WP:N. I hope you understand my thinking, even if you may not agree with it. Take care! --Butseriouslyfolks 20:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Ghost, you have swayed me with the additional citations to reliable, independent sources. Thanks for improving the article! --Butseriouslyfolks 03:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I removed the press release from the AfD before some well-meaning editor pastes it into the article. We were obviously using it to discuss the article in question, but I think it's a copyvio if we leave it there. The link remains if anybody needs to see the whole thing. See you around. --Butseriouslyfolks 03:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Draft proposal

I agree with significant portions of your proposal. I do agree that at a minimum, that schools should almost never be targets for speedy deletion nor should AfDs be created before an opportunity has been given to add the ample sources that are available fro almost all schools, especially at the high school level. Both you and I have shown that it is possible in minutes to take an almost empty article and find and add sources to convince a majority to keep the article. The sources are there for just about every high school. In addition to a couple dozen American schools that have been modified to save them while under AfD, I have also "saved" articles for schools from Australia, India and Nepal, if I recall. While I agree about notability, the problem with school AfDs in general is that there is a very small, but very vocal, minority that believes the exact opposite; that no school is notable, regardless of the number or quality of sources. Many of these folks will do anything to prevent implementation of any blanket definition of notability (i.e., a school is notable as long as its article meets set criteria), let alone a definition that all high schools are notable (even without sources). I have also been working on a proposal that would replace an attempt to define a hard-and-fast definition of notability with an evidence-based approach. My idea for a standard would be to review high school AFDs and say the we've had AfDs on X number of schools, and a review shows that there are certain characteristics of schools that pass AfD, and the overwhelming majority of schools with any meaningful content pass AfD. Other schools that meet these criteria would have voters vote to keep these articles based on the precedent established through this review of earlier AfDs. If you look through school AfDs, there are a number of people who will vote to keep any school article and a number that will vote to delete any school article, regardless of quality from either direction. There is a bigger middle ground that expects to see some meat to an article that includes basic sources and a claim of distinction. The recent AfD at Clayton Middle/High School or today's Wakefield High School (Wakefield, Massachusetts) AfD all had the middle ground tilt to keep once sources were added combined with a claim of notability. These articles don't need to be FA quality, but there is an expectation that they have some meaningful content. In addition to creating a new schools proposal -- and I agree that your's would be part of it -- we need to be diligent in monitoring school AfDs and improving articles, whenever we can, to establish AfD-proof notability, before the next AfD starts. Alansohn 21:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

As I said at the Wakefield discussion, i basically agree that any established HS will probably be notable, if enough effort is taken in the editing. I think we should encourage such editing, but to have school articles with nothing particular to say is being a directory. I accept directory elements without much question, and I even support articles primarily as directories when they are useful, particularly if there is no other free web source. But there is directory material online for every government operated school in the main English speaking countries, and for almost all church schools, and it's very easy to find. So I think we can expect a little bit more. Further, I have two practical reasons: first, we want to educate, and learning how to research one's own neighborhood is a rather basic exercise, and all local librarians will be able to help. Second, school articles are probably the first thought of every high school aged vandal, and a large number of articles with nobody interested in maintaining them will be an inevitable problem. We could of course semi-protect all the school articles; personally, I'd support that in any case, but I think the consensus would be firmly against it. I also don't really think that all middle schools and elementary schools will be found to be notable without more research than is likely to be available, and I don't want to lead the way into that.

I agree that a school article--except one that merely contains vandalism--should not be speedied. Even in speedying the pure vandals, sometimes people do forget to check whether there is a layer of usable material underneath it--I've been caught out once or twice on that myself. We could of course just blank the vandalism and keep the empty article, but why? So I wouldn't support a flat prohibition.

I sometimes have difficult in saving a schools article from India or Sri Lanka where there simply isn't online material to be found. I'm sure other material could be found, but not from the US.

I think there is real potential for an agreement, as long as the two words "every" and "none" are avoided. I will support any reasonable proposal that takes some of the repetitive burden out of AfD. We might want an extended template--a checklist of what material might be worth including and what not in typical cases. DGG 22:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

Misplaced Pages:Copyrights

Hello Noroton.

Please read Misplaced Pages:Copyrights. You're not allowed to copy and paste articles. You should move them. Greetings, —DerHexer (Talk) 17:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

DerHexer is correct, you can't copy and paste the contents of the article after a move, because it separates the page history (leaving it back at the redirect). This type of move requires an administrator to temporarily delete the desired redirect, and then move the page. I have done this. Leebo /C 17:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I just kind of jumped in and fixed it when I saw the discussion on DerHexer's talk page. It may have been more clear for me to explain first. To clarify, you do want it at Controversies about the word niggardly, correct? Leebo /C 17:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem, just a bit of a misunderstanding. A more specific page with regard to this is Misplaced Pages:How to fix cut and paste moves. Happy editing! Leebo /C 17:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Sicko

Well, actually, I don't really know anything about the film/documentary. I just reverted vandalism from the previous IP who blanked the page. Sorry. Peace. Spartan-James 23:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Same with me, I only fixed a formatting issue. But I might chime in on that discussion later, for now, I'll just suggest the proper venue for it (the talk page of the proposed target article) and fix the merge templates. Um, what about the Roman numeral in my user name? - Cyrus XIII 12:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)