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Most Hareidim still don't support Zionism nor its state
I deleted all references that ger vizhnits or any other hareidi support Zionism because they join the Keneset, this is a false POV by very extreme elements who make this accusation unjustly on all those groups they are opposed to Zionism and its state, but they also vote to get money for the Torah institutions but not at all saying that the Zionists are good this is a lie. Please don't revert it without any source.--יודל 00:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Sefardim
We need to fix the sephardim section - add Yaakov Hillel (a famous Sefardi anti-Zionist), as well as lbcl"c the Baba Sali, and the Sephardi Eida Chareidis. Also, the school (something Yoel) - the sephardi school that doesn't take any money from the govmt. Why does the article say no sephardi opposition. Also, Ovadia Yosef used to be a big kanoi; maybe this should be mentioned? Lobbuss 10:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- the word opposition means something more active or voicefull not just an opinion, i think they are not more opposing in this then vizhnits ger and all other hareidim unless u can find sources.--יודל 11:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The jpost blog article was simply false, as many of the responders to it said. The writer was totally ignorant and simply IGNORED the entire Sefardi opposition to Zionism. That's the Zionist way of handling criticism: simply deny that the criticism exists. You have vandalized my previous version. Please stop doing that. --Eidah 13:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Yossiea: Hardal
They used to be plain Mizrachi guys with little kippot, shirts and sandals, and the girls wearing short sleeves and nude lower legs. That's pretty much the definition of Modern Orthodox. And are you really going to claim that they are no longer Religious Zionists?! They don't believe in Religious Zionism any more?! --Eidah 13:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- They are not MO's. MO's is mostly an American thing. In Israel, the RZ are not neccesarily MO's. In addition, the fact that they are Chardalim show that they're not MO, but Charedi in hashkafah. I would venture to say that they are primarily from the RZ camp, but also from the growing camp of American olim who don't fit into the pure Charedi mold. Yossiea 13:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's what I am saying - they USED TO BE modern orthodox. Israeli RZ *is* Modern-Orthodox. Machon Meir, Merkaz HaRav etc, IS modern-orthodox. If the women there wear short sleeves and skirts barely covering the knees, the guys wear plain t-shirts and sandals and shorts and small kippot, then that is called modern-orthodox and that is not by any standards 'Haredi'. What I am saying is that they USED TO BE like that, and they left that, and started becoming stricter in these things: dress, and other things such as shabbat observance and kashrut and general halachic things. You fail to understand that America/the OU does not have the copyright to the term 'modern orthodox' - Israel has 'modern orthodoxy' also, and the vast majority of the settlement movement still falls under that category. --Eidah 13:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I understand what you're saying, but you are incorrect. RZ and MO ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME. Some MO's are RZ, some MO's are not RZ's. Some RZ's are MO and some RZ's are not MO. Dress is irrelevant. Again, they're chardalim because that's how they identify. They are from the RZ camp, not the MO camp. There is no MO camp. There are Charedim, Chassidim, Litvaks and RZ. MO doesn't really fit in. Yossiea 13:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Eida on this one, MO they were before becoming Hardel, nothink has changed in regards to their Zionism beliefs. Most religious Zionists are in the category of the American modern orthodox, modern orthodox has nothing to do with America its simply a term described of orthedox jews who a'rnt Hariedim. So Yosias edits are false uncalled and simply out of line to revert it from MO to RZ, please stop doing it--יודל 15:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I understand what you're saying, but you are incorrect. RZ and MO ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME. Some MO's are RZ, some MO's are not RZ's. Some RZ's are MO and some RZ's are not MO. Dress is irrelevant. Again, they're chardalim because that's how they identify. They are from the RZ camp, not the MO camp. There is no MO camp. There are Charedim, Chassidim, Litvaks and RZ. MO doesn't really fit in. Yossiea 13:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's what I am saying - they USED TO BE modern orthodox. Israeli RZ *is* Modern-Orthodox. Machon Meir, Merkaz HaRav etc, IS modern-orthodox. If the women there wear short sleeves and skirts barely covering the knees, the guys wear plain t-shirts and sandals and shorts and small kippot, then that is called modern-orthodox and that is not by any standards 'Haredi'. What I am saying is that they USED TO BE like that, and they left that, and started becoming stricter in these things: dress, and other things such as shabbat observance and kashrut and general halachic things. You fail to understand that America/the OU does not have the copyright to the term 'modern orthodox' - Israel has 'modern orthodoxy' also, and the vast majority of the settlement movement still falls under that category. --Eidah 13:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Yidisheryid's edits
Yidisheryid: we have previously had big wars about this here. We came to the conclusion that the best thing to do would be to divide the section about Haredi groups in 1 section about those groups which typically adopt a pragmatically supportive stance vis-a-vis the state (such as Ger, Belz, the Litvaks, Klausenburg, Chabad), and those groups which typically adopt a negative, opposing stance vis-a-vis the state (such as Satmar, Dushinsky, Neturei Karta, and organizations such as the Edah and the CRC). Could you explain exactly why you keep completely destroying this division? Further: Dushinsky is a separate group, just as Satmar is a separate group. Further: the CRC is not a subdivision of Satmar. Yossiea, I ask you also to look at this and thus to revert the order of the groups to my previous version, which was made in consensus and which 'Yidisheryid' keeps messing up. --Eidah 13:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dear eida, i have no issue on the sections just a few chabad i can see in devided but al other Hasidim cannot be divided because they are the same opinion towards Zionism, crc isn't even a different group they are just a rabbinic organisation controlled and comprised mainly by satmar so i would not give it a separate header, we cannot make sections for a the satmar rabbis and organizations that have been expressing somewhere sometime a statement about this issue why make so much headers to inflate your cause please consider that their are other people here reading this who will get the false picture that satmar is huge and bigger and more then others which isn't true let all stamar ideas and statement be under their respective section. i agree that Eidaa groupd should not be part of satmar since they are a organizing organization of all those jerusalem groups, dushinsky included, which are indeed opposed to Zionism, why make dushinsky extra group? are they not just like Toldos ahron and other eidanikas?! and stop using the word consensus as if i am not part in this process, everybody can revert minor thinks without talk pages until somebody explains why its not a minor edit which u only now did and i successfully answered--יודל 15:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have warned him and submitted his name to the admins for 3RR and edit warring. Let's hope he stops. Which one has the order of Chassidim? Yossiea 13:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Check the way it was *before* he started messing things up. We had a list of "groups that typically support the State of Israel" (such as the Litvishe, Ger, Belz, Chabad) and list of "groups that typically oppose the State of Israel" (such as Satmar). That was the consensus we had. Now look at the way things are! It's a huge MESS now! --Eidah 13:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I beg u not to just revert al my edits to that Inst because that list was slanderous unsourced POV, they do not support any form of Zionism. it is an opinion and i agree some satmars are by this opinion, but don't write it down as fact, u can write that the satmars look at them as supportive of Zionism but not as given fact that they are indeed which they are not, i dont have sources that they aren't, but i may and i am obligated to erase those accusations even though most users want it inside.--יודל 15:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'll have to check the dozens of edits he messed up. I'll see if I can find something. Yossiea 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Just check the last edit from before the hurricane hit. --Eidah 13:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- :), I think I found a good one. I found one of your edits and put in the Chassidim section. You might want to visit the admin board and see YY's section there and comment if neccesary. Yossiea 13:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. This seems fine. Now I'm off in 20 minutes, back on Monday (no internet at home!). Let's let things rest for a while and take a step back, take a deep breath, enjoy our shabbos meals and next week we'll all be happy and cooperate and turn this into an even better article, and Hakudesh burich hi will send us mushiach tzidkeini, bimheiru veyumeini, UMEIN. ;) --Eidah 14:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- :), I think I found a good one. I found one of your edits and put in the Chassidim section. You might want to visit the admin board and see YY's section there and comment if neccesary. Yossiea 13:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Just check the last edit from before the hurricane hit. --Eidah 13:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Check the way it was *before* he started messing things up. We had a list of "groups that typically support the State of Israel" (such as the Litvishe, Ger, Belz, Chabad) and list of "groups that typically oppose the State of Israel" (such as Satmar). That was the consensus we had. Now look at the way things are! It's a huge MESS now! --Eidah 13:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Edit war
The page has been protected for three days. Please use this time to discuss changes to the article and come up with a compromise, rather than fighting back and forth. You are all rational people, and I am sure a solution everyone can accept can be arrived at. See Misplaced Pages:Edit war and Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes.
The protection will expire in three days; when it expires, the edit warring starts again, people will start to be blocked, and the page protected for longer periods. Neil ム 14:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Neil, u protected this page with a pov version but since u r not Jewish u don't have the knowledge to say which one was the POV version, i ask u to revert it to yesterdays version, so not to be a hand unknowingly to slanderous accusations. thanks--יודל 15:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- FYI, I will only be online again on Monday morning (Zionist time). --Eidah 14:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- We have a solution everyone accepted. We had a discussion weeks ago and we reached a consensus. The article as it stands now is based upon the consensus. YY's edits are breaking that consensus with his edits that don't make any sense. Yossiea 14:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Correct. We need to move on from here. I think the way it looks now is fine. Though the section about 'newspapers' needs some work, but we'll see about that next week, iy'h. --Eidah 14:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- We have a solution everyone accepted. We had a discussion weeks ago and we reached a consensus. The article as it stands now is based upon the consensus. YY's edits are breaking that consensus with his edits that don't make any sense. Yossiea 14:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yossiea, as YY is clearly not in agreement, then it can't be a consensus that everyone presently accepts. Try and discuss things with him over the next few days. If, when the article is unprotected, he still is unwilling to engage with his fellow editors and discuss controversial edits, instead edit warring over the article, his editing privileges will be revoked for longer and longer periods. Neil ム 14:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. Yossiea 14:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yossiea, as YY is clearly not in agreement, then it can't be a consensus that everyone presently accepts. Try and discuss things with him over the next few days. If, when the article is unprotected, he still is unwilling to engage with his fellow editors and discuss controversial edits, instead edit warring over the article, his editing privileges will be revoked for longer and longer periods. Neil ム 14:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Hardal
As per Wiki's article itself, RZ is not the same as MO. Religious_Zionism so stop reverting. This is a talk page, we use it to talk about changes before we make the changes. Try it out. Yossiea 14:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yossiea, at this point I am unsure how your actions are any different from those of Yasheryid. You are both edit warring, and at least he is offering explanation for his edits using edit summaries. You, on the other hand, are simply rolling back his edits with no explanation other than "discuss on the talk page" (and, worse, describing them as "vandalism" when they clearly are not). Please explain on this talk page just why the entirety of his edits are unacceptable to you. Neil ム 14:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- This article was heavily edited before and protected as well. We came to a consensus using the talk page and the article is pretty much "final." His edits are extremely controversial and he is not discussing it beforehand. All I am doing is reverting to a prior acceptable edit and telling him to discuss his changed on the talk page. This is a fairly large talk page and many things were discussed. He is not interested in discussions, he is interested in pushing his POV across. Yossiea 14:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- my edits are only controversial in your single issue of Hardel which was addressed by me and user Eida, unfortunately he is blocked now but u were clearly in the minority on this point, on the other disgreements i have spoken here above to the respective users and sections please don't try to block this article.--יודל 14:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Have you read the Wiki article? RZ is not the same as MO. I'm not sure why you keep editing it to something that is clearly not true. Yossiea 14:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC) (Besides the fact that the way it is written now is the best of both worlds. I'm not sure why you see the need to edit it.)
- my edits are only controversial in your single issue of Hardel which was addressed by me and user Eida, unfortunately he is blocked now but u were clearly in the minority on this point, on the other disgreements i have spoken here above to the respective users and sections please don't try to block this article.--יודל 14:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Furthermore, he keeps claiming that he does utilize the talk page. I haven't really seen that. Have you? Not only that, his constant editing to call Hardal MO is not true, as the Wiki article on RZ clearly points out. Yossiea 14:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe in bringing links from the same page, from one section to the other, to proof something in the bottom that was proven in the top of the page, references and footnotes should be only be reserved for side or outside points. You only are lying here to manipulate a lazy sysop should block the article as if there is no talk on talk page! Look up in all the privies sections and see how i answer u and u ignore them. please don't fool sysops who don't read before they block like u did on Friday to me, but fool me once fool me twice and the joke is on u.--יודל 14:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're saying. Yossiea 14:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe in bringing links from the same page, from one section to the other, to proof something in the bottom that was proven in the top of the page, references and footnotes should be only be reserved for side or outside points. You only are lying here to manipulate a lazy sysop should block the article as if there is no talk on talk page! Look up in all the privies sections and see how i answer u and u ignore them. please don't fool sysops who don't read before they block like u did on Friday to me, but fool me once fool me twice and the joke is on u.--יודל 14:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- This article was heavily edited before and protected as well. We came to a consensus using the talk page and the article is pretty much "final." His edits are extremely controversial and he is not discussing it beforehand. All I am doing is reverting to a prior acceptable edit and telling him to discuss his changed on the talk page. This is a fairly large talk page and many things were discussed. He is not interested in discussions, he is interested in pushing his POV across. Yossiea 14:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Groups which are generally supportive of the State of Israel
The section headed "Groups which are generally supportive of the State of Israel" starts with Ger and Belz. Later on the article says that Hamodia publishes articles attacking Zionism. Since Hamodia is a Gerrer-controlled paper, this is inconsistent. An earlier section lists Chazon Ish et al as "opposed to the State of Israel" notwithstanding that these same Litvishe leaders approved of voitng in Israeli elections. The article needs to distinguish voting and participation in the democratic process, on the one hand, from support for Zionism, on the other. The two are not synonymous. --Redaktor 14:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe its proper to have a section titled like this either Belz is only supportive of Zionism when u ask satmars.--יודל 14:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
m:The Wrong Version
Yudel, Yiddisher, I am not going to comment on who is correct and who is not here, but I suggest you start discussing this anew, sans the David/Eidah issue. Iz chutsch Elul zman, and perhaps with the yamim noraim fast approaching, you both can approach this issue in the spirit of arevus. Remember, Kol Machlokes Shelo L'Shaym Shomayim, ayn sofo L'hiskayem!
In a nutshell (for the non-Yiddish/Talumd Aramaic speakers) please approach this issue in good faith, and I suggest anew, and work out your differences on talk.
To facilitate the above, I have locked the page for a week to help focus on discussion and not edit warring, and I will clean up the talk page for that purpose as well. -- Avi 15:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks i hope by then the blocked user will already have established his status here and we will be able to talk without any insults. Also please do not forget to remove this slanderous POV as the above section points out as if Belz or other Hasidim sopport Zionism. thanks--יודל 15:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just for the record because you don't seem to get it, I'm not Daniel. I've actually reported him several times for suckpuppetry in the past. You are more than welcome to edit here but please discuss things first on the talk page. Be prepared to back your statements up. Yossiea 15:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Step one, rabosai, is to attempt to talk about the article and not each other. יודל, if you believe, and have evidence, that Yossi is Daniel, then you should report the issue on Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets. Otherwise, it is improper harrasment to make unsubstantiated claims about another editor, and I will not even begin to bring in the Lashon Hara and Rechilus elements thereof. So both of y'all, please comport yourself with the dignity and class I am sure you both are capable of. Thank you. -- Avi 15:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I have proof to this but since one name is already blocked i will not go ahead and make my case because i do not want him blocked on this name and on any other names. Case closed, i am stopping to accuse him of any think which is not pertaining from now on, after all he got me blocked so u can understand my pain, but i forgave him and i forgot. Now can u start to erase the Slanderous POV against Belz and all other Hasidim. Or i should turn to other sysops to try this?--יודל 15:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- 1) I'm not Daniel. I would love to see your "proofs." 2) You obvioulsy have no idea how Wiki works if you think that people are just going to remove "the slanderous POV about Belz" just because you request it. Wiki works on RS, NPOV, etc. Please try to keep that in mind. Yossiea 16:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Listen i may be newer then u here but i learn the tricks very fast. Here and i am asking u not to belittle me as if only u know how wiki works last time i checked, any assertions about living people must be sourced i don't have to challenge it with sources once i or some future user can challenge a assertion that it negatively affects its subject matter in real life, it has no place in wikipedia without a source. I ask again of user Avi to erase this, i don't even think i have to mention that this was approved by Eida Pichus and lastly user redkover what ever his name in the one above comment about belz.--יודל 16:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, carrot does not seem to be working. Let's try stick. Rabosai, continued personal attacks will result in a temporary suspension of wikipedia editing privileges to protect the integrity of the project. In other words, please stop attacking each other and get down to discussing the article. A Ksiva V'Chasima Tova and a gut gebentched yar to you both, now please get on and act like mentchen. Y'yasher Kochachem, V'chol tuv (in other words, thank you). -- Avi 16:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Avi if u don't have patience to Look and read my comments how i answer u then stop saying that i don't talk. be quite and come back when u have time to read, nobody is in a rush here. although i would ask u a 6th time please erase the slanderous piece about Hasidim supporting Zionists, its unsourced and u as a sysop should know better then not reverting to such a version, by now i wsil not asking u anymore this think i have stated alerting other sysops about your unheard off conduct, please don't make this into a bigger struggle because your record will be tarnished by this ignoring my plights, and daring to say that i am silent.--יודל 16:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe that the paragraphs (regarding Ger and Belz), as currently constituted, are defamatory. However, I agree with you that it is unsupported and likely original research. I will place tags to that effect in the article now, and let Yossi have a week or so to find suitable sources for the information before it gets deleted. I will start a new section below for that purpose. -- Avi 17:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Sources requested
Groups which are generally supportive of the State of Israel: Ger and Belz Hasidim
This section needs sourcing. Please find sourcing soon, or it will be removed. Thank you. -- Avi 17:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- While I was not the author of that section, and like many of the sections here seem to be unsourced, I will try to reason. (Firstly, it seems that YY is going against any chassidishe sect that is supposedly supportive of the State.) The main reason why I would say Ger and Belz, as written, is pragmatic in their support is that they are the largest bloc in the Agudat_Yisrael political party. Being a member of the Knesset certainly is a level of support. I'm not sure how much more is needed. It seems pretty clear cut to me. Yossiea 18:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)