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Talk:Catholic Church sexual abuse cases/Archive 5

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Archives
  1. up to August 2003
  2. December 2003-November 2005
  3. November 2005-February 2006
  4. February 2006-June 2007

NPOV

For those interested in eliminating POV in this and other articles, there is a List of fallacies in Misplaced Pages and a rather tighter one in http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies. I've noticed a number of sentences that start off with the "assumption" that "everybody knows." etc. This is great grist for the POV folks and something that some of us would like to replace or remove. This list provides support for those hoping to revert to an encyclopedic article. Student7 16:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, Student7. I agree that this "article" is chock full of POV statements, unreferenced conclusions, etc. I have tried to deal with some, but to be frank the whole thing is such a mess it's hard to figure out where to begin. It's like emptying the ocean with a teaspoon. But at least it's comforting to see some other teaspoons out there. --Anietor 23:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll make a suggestion on where to begin. The paragraph that starts, "The Catholic League has argued..." seems to contain a lot of information about teachers, strung together in a way that seems POV if not OR; the article isn't about comparative rates of abuse. The Catholic League response should be included, but without the additional survey and report info. 24.4.253.249 07:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I changed it. Kept the references. I didn't think that was the worst sentence in the intro BTW. Teachers should be pleased!  :)
If you have bathwater, let me know. Just make sure there isn't a baby in it first!  :) Student7 13:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Yup, much better. I'm going to rearrange some of the sentences to try to make the lead flow better. Feel free to revert if you don't think it improves the article. 24.4.253.249 16:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Miami "stuff"

The Miami archdiocese "stuff" has finally overflowed onto this article. It is Dominvsvobiscvm's POV that Archbishop Favalora is pro-homosexual and is intending to publicize that POV ad infinitum. More Catholic that the pope, you see. The sources used are not double edited like controversial material should be, but from blogs, columns and other unverified references. The Miami stuff is supposedly going into arbitration having failed mediation. With enough eyes and a heads up, we ought to be able to handle this here or force a mediation first (which won't work) and then to arbitration separately. We will try to couple them but don't know if that will work. For those who hate the church, this poorly documented type of accusation does not help your case and you may wish to help as well! See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Sources Student7 12:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

My feeling is that Dominvsvobiscvm's goal is not to contribute to Misplaced Pages as a body of knowledge, but to use it as a vehicle to promote a vendetta against several entities: Archbishop Favalora, the Archdiocese of Miami, and gay and lesbian people in the Catholic Church, their families and friends. Dominvsvobism is attempting to cobble together "sources"--correct or not, appropriate or not--in a frantic attempt to prove her accusations. Also, it is obvious that since the John Favalora and Archdiocese of Miami articles have been "locked" she will target other articles in Misplaced Pages as convenient places to promote her agenda of harassment. Annpavlosky 4 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.80.55 (talk) 09:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been taking this entirely too seriously. It was one thing to place this stuff in the middle of the Miami articles - ruining perfectly good copy. It's quite another thing to put them here when half this stuff is nonsense or exaggerated already. The entire article is too long ensuring that no one will read it. The quality is not good. The main intent is to defame. Anyway, Dominvsvobiscm's contributions are even more ludicrous that the usual ones and totally without merit. If they weren't ready to disbelieve this article prior to arriving at the Miami section, they will afterwards. That is a plus not a minus. Secondly, this has a good basis for an article in uncyclopedia. I copies Dominvsvobisvm's original and moved it there. Will need a bit of "enhancement," but I think the people there will get a big kick out of it when I am through. (I knew it would be good for something!). Student7 19:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Bankruptcy

Just looking at the "bankruptcy" section. This is all repeated below in the diocese section. Why in two places? Plus being in the article on the diocese. I do want to point out that articles this long don't get read anyway, but it is annoying for those of us who do look at it occasionally.Student7 21:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

(Hope you don't mind that I refactored your comments for ease of reading.)
I agree that duplicate information is not a good thing. The question then becomes, Where is it more logical to present it? I'm tempted to say that the Diocese section should be rewritten into a summary that presents full aggregate info, with a list of links to the specific Diocese articles/sections for details based on location. That would allow the Bankruptcy section to remain largely intact. 24.4.253.249 00:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

CSRI Books

http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:SPS Louise Haggett is listed as the President/Founder of CITI Ministries. She is listed as the author of the report. CSRI Books is listed as part of CITI Ministries. All this is conveyed in the relevant section of the article but Misplaced Pages's relevant policy says:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

The exception is if: The report is produced by "an established expert on the topic of the article" and "has been previously published by reliable third-party publications". Neither has been established so I intend to delete the section unless someone can prove that Louise Haggett is an "established expert" who has been published by "reliable third-party publications". GuyIncognito 01:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Miami

I just removed some comments and disputed material from the section on the Miami Archdiocese, which was making all of it hard to read. I hope this works. I'm putting what I think was all of the disputed material here. If there is more disputed material, I'd suggest using the same technique (or simply to delete it, if that's what needs to happen) which should make it easier for others to see what has happened. Here is the material:

In 2005 and 2006, Catholic columnist Matt C. Abbott (of RenewAmerica.us) published several articles tracing developments in what became known as the "Miami Vice" scandal. Bourassa claimed that several "straight" priests were feeding her information on a culture of sodomy and theological heterodoxy on the part of priests of the Miami Archdiocese. Among the allegations: 70 to 90 percent of the Archdiocese's priests are sexually active gays; Archbishop Favalora and Catholic Charities of Miami owned several thousand shares in stock for a liquid aphrodisiac popularly sold in gay clubs and strip joints; at least 70 percent of bishops in the United States are sexually active gays; many parish priests were misappropriating parish funds to live exorbitant lifestyles, and archbishop Favalora and vicar-general Msgr. William J. Hennessey are in some way implicated in this superculture.

The comment was: "well he didn't "publish" anything. Abbott is simply a tabloid web blogger in effect. Not allowable in Misplaced Pages under guidelines previously cited. Particularly for controversial stuff. This is utter nonsense." I was going to check this but haven't yet. Plinkit 19:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Reasons why material referenced to Matt Abbott Columns should be removed from Archdiocese of Miami sections

Regarding the allegation that Archdiocese of Miami owns stock in a liquid aphrodisiac company, the alleged liquid aphrodisiac is this http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-149600240.html As you can see by visiting this independent third party reference to the supposed liquid aphrodisiac, the beverages sold by this company are marketed as "energy drinks". No where does this company say that it is selling a liquid aphrodisiac. In no newspaper is it reported that any of these drinks are aphrodisiacs that are sold in gay bars. I would also like to point out that there are no references that Misplaced Pages would allow to sustain having any of the material referenced to Matt Abbott columns. I searched for any third party references to any investigations of any Archdiocese of Miami priest for stealing money and there are none. I searched for any third party references to find any kind of evidence that would sustain an accusation that Miami Archdiocese priests (over 400 of them) are sexually active homosexuals. There are none. Misplaced Pages policy states that extraordinary claims must have extraordinary sources. This does not exist to sustain these claims. I have four school age children here. Sharon Bourassa and her tiny catholic hate group told entire schools full of children, including my own that the priests they have loved and known all their lives are practicing homosexuals because they own real estate (just like doctors do when investing) with other priests. (Archdiocese of Miami requires their priests to provide for their own retirement) I watched my child cry for over two hours and she only stopped after I told her that her own father owns a hunting cabin with his hunting friends, owning real estate does not mean a person is an active homosexual, nor that they have bought it with stolen funds. One priest lives in a home on the intracoastal. He is an only child who has lived in this home most of his life with his parents. When his parents died, he inherited the home which is three blocks from his parish. Sharon Bourassa assumes that since it is on the intracoastal, it is a luxury home he owns with stolen parish funds. This is such a horrible defamation of good, innocent priests who have been loving and kind to our kids and it is so painful to see this garbage being proclaimed on Misplaced Pages. This material clearly violates wikipolicies WP:Redflag, WP:Proveit, WP:NPOV#undue weight, and WP:RS If you visit the mediation page of John Favalora you will see many editors who have a consensus that this material should be removed. The only person who wants this material on this site is DominvsVobiscm. If you visit his talk page you will see how many times he has been reprimanded for vandalizing Catholic sites in Misplaced Pages. This is not an unbiased Wiki editor. This is a person using Misplaced Pages to turn Catholic sites into anti Catholic propaganda.NancyHeise 14:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. http://www.renewamerica.us/search.php?q=Miami+Archdiocese Series of columns from RenewAmerica.us, tracing the "Miami Vice" debacle
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