Misplaced Pages

Talk:Estonian pirates

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Berig (talk | contribs) at 08:46, 31 October 2007 (→Discussion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 08:46, 31 October 2007 by Berig (talk | contribs) (→Discussion)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

WikiProject iconEstonia Redirect‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconEstonian pirates is part of WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.EstoniaWikipedia:WikiProject EstoniaTemplate:WikiProject EstoniaEstonia
RedirectThis redirect does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
MidThis redirect has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
To-do list:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Estonian pirates AKA vikings

Hello Berig, to avoid edit warring here: how come you call Scandinavian pirates from the late 8th–11th century vikings but the similar ship-borne warriors and traders of Norsemen (literally, men from the north) who originated from another side of the Baltic sea you call pirates?

As there are also referred to Estonian vikings in the article and there are sources elsewhere that refer to 'Estonian vikings' for ex 800-1100 A.D. Raids and counter-raids by Vikings around the Baltic Sea, including by Estonian Vikings. Estonians kidnap Norwegian Queen Astrid and her son, future King Olaf Trygvesson—sell them into slavery. Estonians destroy Sweden’s main town, Sigtuna. http://www.balticsww.com/tourist/estonia/history.htm

please have the article reverted to Estonian vikings instead of Estonian pirates so that your original article can't be interpreted as a racist Scandinavian POV. Thanks!--Termer 19:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Termer, he meant that you moved the article in a wrong way - you must use Move link at the top of the page to move articles, not cut-paste method. DLX 19:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks DLX for the tech tip! Although I can't speculate on what was meant. Since ethnic issues regarding vikings have been discussed also earlier on Berig user page, I can't be certain for the reasons until Berig has confirmed it.--Termer 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, DLX is right that you moved the article in the wrong way. By cutting and pasting, you don't move the article's history with it. Secondly, the word "Viking" is ambiguous in English and can both mean "medieval Scandinavian" and "medieval north European pirate". On WP we strive to avoid ambiguous article names, and above all we try to make the terminology as mainstream as possible. If you want to call this article "Estonian Vikings" you have to expect the casual reader to think that is about medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia. PS, can you explain more exactly what you mean by "racist"? Are Estonians a different "race" from Scandinavians, or are you talking of "Nationalism"? Please not that personal attacks are forbidden on WP and can make you incur a block.--Berig 22:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Moving the article in the wrong way was my mistake, I apologize for that.
Regarding medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia, the ancient Swedish settlement in coastal areas and on islands of Estonia is a fact Scandinavians living in medieval Estonia is a documented fact. The fact is also that the 'Estonian pirates' used similar technology to Scandinavian vikings as described in the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia. Now, either those Estonian pirates were ethnically Finnish/Estonian or Scandinavian, is a secondary question. Most likely there were both.

Now, I have no idea why do you take anything here personally. I was referring to the way the northern pirates are called differently and I'm sorry if I exaggerated with calling this kind of approach racist. Perhaps nationalist like you suggested is more correct. Now, what are we going to do about the title? I think 'Estonian pirates' is in any way inappropriate since it refers to modern day national name of Estonia. Eistneskr by the old Norwegian sagas referrers to Finno-Ugric people like ancient Livonians and Estonians or Finns etc. 'Estonian vikings' would refer to Scandinavian style pirates that were perhaps both ethnically Scandinavian and/or Finno Ugric back then coming from what are nowadays known as Estonian islands. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks!--Termer 00:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Berig asked me to give an opinion on the naming. "Viking" is an unfortunate, blurry 18th-century term for Scandinavian raiders, merchants and other people who just happened to leave their countries on a boat for whatever purpose. The original term, as far as I know, is based on a long-extinct Old Norse word that roughly meant a pirate, however never used at the time about the same people that were later labelled as Vikings. Finnic and Baltic peoples are cut off from that by definition, so using it about them is incorrect.
Earlier Scandinavian presence in the Baltic area was all gone by the mid-11th century. Previous Baltic vassals adopted much of the Scandinavian warfare and turned against their previous masters. I seriously doubt that there were any significant numbers of Scandinavians left in the Baltic area in the 12th century.
"Estonian" was already widely used at least from the 11th century onwards in its current meaning, even though not by Estonians themselves. The name appears frequently e.g. in Russian chronicles. Estonia was not a unified country, but its people were seen as one in the contemporary sources. The same applies to Finns, Karelians, Votes etc.
Noteworthy is though, that the 12th century plundering was not a Baltic/Finnic privilege. Russian, Swedish and Danish attacks were not any different at the time. To be honest, there is a certain flare of medieval propaganda still present here, when attacks coming from the east were labelled as "pirating" and similar attacks from the west as "crusades". As we have an article Early Finnish wars, I would propose a similar neutral name for this article here, Early Estonian wars. My 2c. --Drieakko 12:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Russian chronicles have never called anybody Estonian (since the word itself is Latin for Estland) In Russian chronicles the ancestors of modern Estonians/Finns are referred to as Chuds. Please also note the fact that there were Scandinavians settled on islands that are nowadays known as Estonian from where the Viking style raids under discussion originated from. Further on, the period of crusades has nothing to do with what's under discussion here since Northern Crusades started a century later after the Viking era was over and Scandinavian countries had become Christianized.
During the Northern Crusades, it's a separate documented chapter in history and it's called 'the Ancient (Estonian) Fight for Freedom'. That was in essence the fight against the invaders by all ancient tribes including the ones living in modern day Estonia' mainland . But the 'Estonian pirates' were located only on islands, primarily on Oesel, that is BTW one of the main source from where the people into the western Finland migrated from in the ancient times.--Termer 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
PS. How about calling the article 'Ancient Estonian pirates', sometimes called the 'Eastern Vikings' , like it says on Saaremaa AKA Oesel?--Termer 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, I meant that they treated Estonians as a separate people, naturally not using the English word "Estonian" for them. Swedish settlers arrived only after Estonian wars were over and done with, in the late 13th century, around the same time than they started settling Finland. "Ancient Estonian Fight for Freedom" is a rather unsuitable name for a Misplaced Pages article, even though it is used by Estonian historians. Articles are not meant to raise any nationalistic emotions. Every war has somebody fighting for "freedom" and all past wars can be called "ancient".
About Finns, they have not emmigrated from Saarenmaa. I have not heard that claim ever before. --Drieakko 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Drieakko Please let me point out that they treated Estonians as a separate people is an opinion not a fact. The fact is the Russian chronicles referred to Chuds as all the finno ugric tribes living in the era, perhaps some of them were even Slavic.. Please check out the related map on WP. even the map of - Chuds Finno Ugric tribes also lived in the era that is modern Finland nowadays. Therefor calling people living in Finland back then -Estonians, is an opinion. Even in Old Norwegian 'eistneskr maðr ' in the saga of Olaf , it doesn't mean anything else than 'men from East'. Therefore Eastern Vikings would work well perhaps. Since Eastern pirates could refer to the Orient. Also, if you look at the English translation of The Saga of Olaf Tryggvason ,it refers to vikings as robbers and people as Aistian. A comment also says “Aistian names Klerkon, Klerkr, Eres (Heres), Reas, and Rekon/Rekon are most probably not Finno-Ugric but could be Old Baltic )

Russian chronicles originally used the word Yem for the Finns. In the 13th century, they started to use that specifically about Tavastians and adopted Sum for the southwestern Finns. There is no entry in the chronicles about Chuds that could be interpreted to have meant Finns. --Drieakko 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding finns emigrated from Saarenmaa It should be common knowledge that waves of the Finno Ugric tribes arrived to Finland from South that is modern Estonia now and the other waves arrived to Finland from East through that is modern Karelia. Now since the the global human genome project, there surfaced a fact about 5 years ago, DNA evidence pointed out that the people living on Saarenmaa and Western Finland nowadays have descent from the same origin.

Theories about mass-migrations of Finns have been dropped long time ago. DNA evidence points out that Estonians, Finns and Swedes are all closely related. --Drieakko 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Germanic tribes, Scandinavians living in the Estonian islands long time before the 13 cen. since the evidence to that are vague and controversial I don't think it's worth argue about the Scandinavian settlement during the Viking era any more.--Termer 03:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Drieakko lets get to the point and stop trolling here, I could go on with this that the Finns referred by the chronicles were most likely the Sams and the DNA evidents doesn't say anything about mass migration but just points out the fact that the guys on Saarenamma and in western Finland are related closer than the rest of the Est Fin Scnd and you can get back to me with another opinion but thats not the point here etc. So what are we going to do about the 'Estonian pirates'? --Termer 05:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps they are better described as "raiders" rather than "pirates", since strictly speaking piracy means "robbery on the seas", where as these people mainly raided on land after arriving by boat. Anyway, how about the idea of merging the content into a section of the stub Ancient Estonia, then have this page as a redirect? Martintg 05:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Martintg pirates are also known nowadays as software etc. pirates. But in general I think merging this into Ancient Estonia sounds good to me. Then its going to be possible to point out that in modern English, the eistneskr are translated as Aistian's and Vikings in the same text are referred to as raiders and or robbers. I've posted a ref earlier.--Termer 06:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The current article is a rather mixed bag of all kinds of conflicts, not only maritime. I'd still propose Early Estonian wars to give a complete coverage about Estonian related conflicts before the German/Danish conquest of the area. The article should handle conflicts against Novgorod/Vladimir/Kiev, Danes, Swedes and eventually Germans. The overall amount of material about these conflicts is quite extensive, but it is currently thinly spread here and there. --Drieakko 06:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

calling those raids Estonian wars is way over the top I think. Those were still vking style raids from both sides, also there were conflicts between the Finno-Ugric and Baltic tribes back then. Sigtuna perhaps could be called a war for the scale of it but in the end it was just a quick raid. I think once Ancient Estonia is going to be more sophisticated article, once we'll get all that extensive amount of material about these conflicts in there, it would be reasonable to start a new, main article about the subject. So, I'd support merging all related articles into Ancient Estonia, cleaning it up and then lets take it from there. --Termer 07:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Kindly read my previous comment again. For example, the early 12th century conflict between Novgorod and Estonians seems to have been very extensive. I'd first sum up all conflicts under a common article and then spin off additional articles if there is need for that. --Drieakko 07:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Drieakko I did read your previous comment again. And I have to come forward with my point once more. Since we don't have any articles in WP that cover those conflicts in depth, (or do we?) I'd suggest merging all related stubs or I'd first sum up all conflicts under a common article: Ancient Estonia and once any of the sections is going to ask for it's own article, then spin off additional articles if there is need for that.--Termer 20:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good strategy, since stand-alone articles like Estonian pirates lack context, so it may be confusing for readers, we can spin it off later again if needed. However, since Berig was the originator of this great article, we should also get his opinion too. Martintg 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
IMO, adding information about these scattered and isolated conflicts to Ancient Estonia would not much improve the quality of the said article. --Drieakko 04:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Well ofcourse, the article is still a stub, so I intend to fatten it up bit over the weekend. Martintg 05:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd rather stay away from a discussion where people like Termer insinuate that the naming has racist POVs against Estonians. Since everyone has his/her own wishes, we should wait and see if other add their opinions until some kind of consensus appears.--Berig 07:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well Berig, I thought we put this racial thing behind us and settled on ethnic or national bias. But since you insist. We should turn to the specialists perhaps. Since the racial theorist Alfred Rosenberg, a Reich minister of Nazi Germany has claimed that Estonians were 50 percent Germanic AKA Scandinavian and Vikings can only be applied to Scandinavians, perhaps a consensus could be reached if we call the article “Estonian half-vikings”? based on the DNA evidence Drieakko provided: Estonians, Finnish and Scandinavians are all genetically closely related , maybe we could even go for "Estonian 75%-vikings"? Anyway, since you have chosen to use the modern national name of the country please have this article renamed without adding any national bias to it's title. I refuse to go along with this trolling further and have to tag this article accordingly if not replied and dispute not solved via a consensus. Thanks!--Termer 03:21, 6 July 2007
PS.Og hvorfor syns du at nogen fra Finland skal taler om det for dig? Det er ikke om Finland eller om Drieakko men om dig selv, er det ikke? Du har brugt navnen "Estonia", derfor du skal tale om sig selv og omnevne venligst den historie. Tak skal du have!--Termer 16:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what is the dispute here. --Drieakko 04:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

second round

  • Hey! I knew that I had came across reading about Estonian vikings several times, and not so much about "Estonian Pirates". so I took my time and looked it up. And it looks like there are no basis whatsoever to be concerned like User:Berig has been.

So here it comes. An interesting fact is that Estonian Vikings are mentioned in Heimskringla p.147 in the History of the Norse Kings according to "A Brief History of the Vikings" by Gwyn Jones. Interesting is the fact as well that came out, Estonian Vikings in Estonian were/are called Vikerlased. The books:

  • The Northern Crusades by Eric Christiansen. ISBN-13: 978-0140266535 Estonian Vikings on page 36
  • A History of Pagan Europe by Prudence Jones; ISBN 0415091365 Estonian Vikings on page 166:
  • Nordic Religions in the Viking Age by Thomas A. Dubois; ISBN 0812217144; Estonian Vikings, on page 177:
  • A Brief History of the Vikings: The Last Pagans or the First Modern Europeans? ISBN 0786715995 from Back Matter: Heimskringla, p.147, uses the term viking here, even though the captors are later revealed to be Estonian.
  • A History of the Vikings by Gwyn Jones ISBN-13: 978-0192801340 on page 167 The Scandinavian Community: speaks of trading towns of the Vikings: the Estonian Truso among the Swedish Birka, Norwegian Skiringssal (Kaupang) etc.
  • Encyclopedia of World Biography By Paula Kay Byers, Suzanne Michele Bourgoin; ISBN 0787625515; Estonian Vikings on Page 491
  • Mother of Kings by Poul Anderson; ISBN-13: 978-0765345028; An Estonian viking. on Back Matter
  • Cassell's Encyclopaedia of World Literature By S. H. Steinberg, J. Buchanan-Brown ISBN 0688002285; Estonian Vikingson Page 222
  • Folklorica (Uralic & Altaic) by Peter Voorheis ISBN-13: 978-0700709410; on Page 213:the living conditions of the Estonian Vikings on Page 215:...the Estonian Vikings at sea; on Page 216: deals with Estonian Viking times
  • World Encyclopedia of Contemporary Theatre: Europe by Don Rubin; ISBN-13: 978-0415251570; The Estonian Vikings in Estonian: Vikerlased
  • My Several Journeys Book One by Elizabeth Mulford ISBN-13: 978-1414064604 Estonian Vikings on page 127
  • Historical Dictionary of Estonia; ISBN 0810849046; Estonian Vikings - Page 517


This should be enough for now to end the ethnic bias here and call the article about the traders and raiders from the shores of the eastern Baltic Vikings as well on WP. Thanks!--Termer 09:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work! Martintg 09:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Browsing contemporary litterature, you can find thousands of references to Vikings this and Vikings that, without any other than populist content. If you want to change the definition of a Viking, please go first to the respective article about them. --Drieakko 12:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Martintg for your support and thanks Drieakko for provided skepticism. Although calling the 17th century Swedish Heimskringla that’s based on the 12-13 century Old Norse texts a contemporary literature seems more like an opinion rather than a fact for me. Also I must thank you Drieakko for pointing out the article Vikings that led me to Viking era. The articles seem to have some common problems in general therefore I’m glad to help by bringing everything together ASAP. For example the fact that the trading-raiding-Scandinavian-mercenaries etc. that had traveled eastwards were referred to as Varangians by the earliest Russian chronicles is totally missing over there. But at first I’m going to look up relevant refs about the estniska vikingr eller vikingr fra Estland etc. in Norwegian, Danish, Swedish and perhaps in Old Norse as well to support the facts listed in the sources written in modern English. And then once done with the Vikings in general, it's time to return and set things right over here. Thanks again for your support and constructive criticism. --Termer 23:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Scandinavian sources

So here is one how they teach kids in Norway about the vikings from Estonia. At the school of Avaldsnes, the town thats named after the Norwegian king Augvald, the place of the Viking Garden (Vikinggården). The Olav Trygvassons saga in Norwegian: Da de seilte østover havet, kom det vikinger fra Estland og røvet dem... :when they sailed on the Baltic sea came the vikings from Estonia and robbed them.--Termer 06:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone argued here that there were no Scandinavian settlments on the easter shores of the Baltic sea back then? Seems like you'd need to take it to whoever uploaded this image to Wiki and wrote the article Norsemen --Termer 03:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Map showing area of Scandinavian settlement in the eighth (dark red), ninth (red), tenth (orange) and eleventh (yellow) centuries. Green denotes areas subjected to frequent Viking raids.
There certainly were Scandinavian settlements in the eastern Baltic sea, but the attached map is really careless work. --Drieakko 05:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

That was actually my point Drieakko it is careless work if not WP:OR and shouldn't belong to an encyclopedia. Thanks for your support. I was just hoping that someone other than me would take it up ;-) --Termer 06:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Notes and references

  1. http://www.einst.ee/factsheets/factsheets_uus_kuju/estonian_swedes.htm
  2. ISBN-10: 0801441498
  3. Template:No iconOlav Trygvassons saga at School of Avaldsnes

Requested move

Estonian pirates → Estonian vikings — Sources overwhelmingly support "Estonian vikings":

  1. Estonian Vikings are mentioned in Heimskringla p.147 in the History of the Norse Kings according to "A Brief History of the Vikings" by Gwyn Jones.
  2. The Northern Crusades by Eric Christiansen. ISBN-13: 978-0140266535 Estonian Vikings on page 36
  3. A History of Pagan Europe by Prudence Jones; ISBN 0415091365 Estonian Vikings on page 166:
  4. Nordic Religions in the Viking Age by Thomas A. Dubois; ISBN 0812217144; Estonian Vikings, on page 177:
  5. A Brief History of the Vikings: The Last Pagans or the First Modern Europeans? ISBN 0786715995 from Back Matter: Heimskringla, p.147, uses the term viking here, even though the captors are later revealed to be Estonian.
  6. A History of the Vikings by Gwyn Jones ISBN-13: 978-0192801340 on page 167 The Scandinavian Community: speaks of trading towns of the Vikings: the Estonian Truso among the Swedish Birka, Norwegian Skiringssal (Kaupang) etc.
  7. Encyclopedia of World Biography By Paula Kay Byers, Suzanne Michele Bourgoin; ISBN 0787625515; Estonian Vikings on Page 491
  8. Mother of Kings by Poul Anderson; ISBN-13: 978-0765345028; An Estonian viking. on Back Matter
  9. Cassell's Encyclopaedia of World Literature By S. H. Steinberg, J. Buchanan-Brown ISBN 0688002285; Estonian Vikingson Page 222
  10. Folklorica (Uralic & Altaic) by Peter Voorheis ISBN-13: 978-0700709410; on Page 213:the living conditions of the Estonian Vikings on Page 215:...the Estonian Vikings at sea; on Page 216: deals with Estonian Viking times
  11. World Encyclopedia of Contemporary Theatre: Europe by Don Rubin; ISBN-13: 978-0415251570; The Estonian Vikings in Estonian: Vikerlased
  12. My Several Journeys Book One by Elizabeth Mulford ISBN-13: 978-1414064604 Estonian Vikings on page 127
  13. Historical Dictionary of Estonia; ISBN 0810849046; Estonian Vikings - Page 517
  14. Aestii: An Analysis of an Ancient European Civilization By Edgar V. Saks; Estonian Vikings page 269
—Martintg 20:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.
  • Do you have a source that backs you claim of this expectation, or is this your personal opinion? Plenty of english language sources have been presented that support "Estonian viking", so I don't know where you get this view that english speakers expect something else. I'm an english speaker from Australia, are you a native english speaker? Martintg 21:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is a discussion between two English-speakers at the Viking Aswer Lady's webpage. The lady refers to an English-speaking scholar who maintains that
Strictly speaking, therefore, the term should only be applied to men actually engaged in these violent pursuits, and not to every contemporary Scandinavian farmer, merchant, settler or craftsman, nor even to warriors fighting in the dynastic wars of their lords or in their own private feuds. (Jacqueline Simpson. Everyday Life in the Viking Age. New York: Dorset. 1967. ISBN 0-88029-146-X. p.11).
The term "Viking" is diffuse as it is already, without using the name for every group that has been called "Vikings" at one point or another, be it to Estonians pirates or medieval Scandinavians who never left their village.--Berig 05:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Well according to many scholars, these people were engaged in violent pursuits, they also shared many other cultural characteristics and behaviours, and were most likely communities of earlier settlers from mainland Scandinavia, particularly on the island of Saaremaa, hence the academics refer to them as "Estonian vikings". Martintg 20:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The term Viking has extremely specific connotations and a direct historical meaning in the English language. The term is also very culturally specific down to the very linguistic origins of the word. This word shouldn't be thrown around so loosely. What's next, Polynesian Vikings because there may have been Polynesian raiders (just as an example) during the window of the Viking Age? We need something more appropriate and specific to the subject. :bloodofox: 10:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

*Oppose per bloodfox' arguments. Viking the designation of a folk, ie Scandinavian Germanic people of the High Middle Ages. Their indulging in piracy is secondary. --victor falk 12:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Support. It is true that, in popular use, the term "Vikings" is usually restricted to Norsemen from Sweden, Norway and Denmark. But as Termer and others have suggested from sighted sources, the informed academic consensus seems to differ. A case in point: perhaps the most detailed academic analysis of Estonian raiders, that of Edgar V. Saks, is titled "The Estonian Vikings" (Montreal: Practical Handbooks, 1981).
As for the American Heritage Dictionary, Berig, it is a confused source. For example, it confuses the meanings of "Nordic" and "Scandinavia" ("Nordic: Of, relating to, or characteristic of Scandinavia or its peoples, languages, or cultures"). Dictionaries are limited to one-line definitions, and so it is their tendency to compact — and sometimes distort — complex meanings. This is an encyclopedia, and should strive for comprehensive, nuanced analysis. Lkbunker 14:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Link the study please, I am curious as to what exactly it says. Regardless, I can probably dig up a ton of places where the term has been misappropriated for any number of reasons. Looking forward to that Polynesian Vikings article created in the same line of thought. :bloodofox: 01:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Link the study? how about looking up there at the books. Regarding Polynesian Vikings, please :bloodofox: list at least 14 books published in English like the ones up here talk about Estonian vikings and you can have your Polynesian Vikings article. --Termer 05:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
PS. I'm linking one for your convenience anyway, in case it's too much to check out the provided sources. Please enjoy,

Estonian Vikings at History of Pagan Europe By Prudence Jones; ISBN 0415091365. Looking forward to get one linking in return about Polynesian Vikings. Thanks!--Termer 05:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

PPS. OK, here is one more just in case

Nordic Religions in the Viking Age By Thomas A. DuBois ISBN 0812217144--Termer 05:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC) and one more
Estonian Vikings at Cassell's Encyclopaedia of World Literature;ISBN 0688002285, and one more
Estonian Vikings at Encyclopedia of World Biography - Page 491 ;ISBN 0787625515
  • Oppose Strong support I'm very sorry, I was thinking only in modern English, not historically... That "viking" has come to mean "scandinavian medieval people" is a recent development. The word accurately describes what those Estonians were doing, much more so than "pirate".--victor falk 15:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. An opinion that Estonian vikings might be confused with "Estonian Scandinavians" does not have any basis whatsoever since the first line in the article explains exactly what this is all about. And the term has been used by the Scandinavians since Icelandic Sagas from where it has made it into modern English as shown by the examples listed above--Termer 15:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Comment Here is something I've not added yet to the Viking article but going to ASAP: The way an English speaker puts it: from A Brief History of the Vikings: The Last Pagans or the First Modern Europeans? by Jonathan Clements; p.12; ISBN 0786715995: The Vikings were a group created by circumstance, not blood – they were not a “race”, nor did they have any patriotism, any sense of "Viking-ness". Although they were predominantly men from the areas now known as Norway, Sweden and Denmark, there are mentions in the sagas of Finns, Sami and Estonians among them. --Termer 22:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, I agree. "Viking" identity was not racial, it was a trans-national identity. The report published by the European Science Foundation, for example, states there is no such thing as a monolithic ‘Viking’ identity, but that varieties of identity that can be labelled ‘Viking’ caused some major social and cultural shifts across a wide swathe of eastern and northern Europe in the early Middle Ages. Migration And Transcultural Identities In The Viking Age Martintg 00:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
As said in the quote: "they were predominantly men from the areas now known as Norway, Sweden and Denmark". This is why the name "Estonian Vikings" implies that the Estonian Vikings also predominantly came from Norway, Denmark and Sweden. Why should the title misguide the reader to believe that there were substantial Scandinavian settlements in Estonia during the Viking Age?--Berig 05:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
"predominantly" does not mean "exclusively", it means "mostly". Therefore it is recognised that some Vikings also came from areas outside Norway, Sweden and Denmark, such as the east coast of the Baltic. Hence the term "Viking" is qualified with a geographical term "Estonian". Hence "Estonian vikings" is a valid term to describe a group of people who shared a similar culture, lifestyle and beliefs as the mainland Vikings, during the same period. Martintg 06:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you Berig saying that instead of addressing your question to the English speaking authors who speak in print about Estonian Vikings listed above, the article should be named something like Estonian Vikings -not Scandinavian ? And how do they interpret this vikinger fra Estland in the Olav Trygvassons saga written in Norwegian? Please explain! Thanks--Termer 06:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It says on Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (precision):
If a word or phrase is ambiguous, and an article concerns only one of the meanings of that word or phrase, it should usually be titled with something more precise than just that word or phrase (unless it is unlikely that the related usages deserve their own article).
"Viking" is an ambiguous word that is applied both to medieval Scandinavians and to medieval pirates. We have to follow Misplaced Pages policy and make the titles as unambiguous as possible.--Berig 06:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, thats why the English speaking authors call the guys Estonian Vikings, it's titled with something more precise than just that word or phrase. I fail to see how anybody could interpret Estonian Vikings as Scandinavians from Estonia as the something more precise clearly indicates that the vikings were Estonian. If the title was Vikings from Estonia, only then you could say that it might mean like you suggest. So far as far as I'm concerned, Estonian Vikings fits perfectly with the Misplaced Pages policy and is as unambiguous as possible. Unless of course we could go even further and call it like already mentioned Estonian -not Scandinavian Vikings--Termer 06:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

We also have Estonian Swedes, and when I read "Estonian Vikings", I surmise that there were North Germanics in Estonia earlier. That is why "Estonian Vikings" is ambiguous when I read it.--Berig 07:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, please let me point out that's only because in your opinion Vikings=Scandinavians. The books published in English listed above, seems don't share the opinion of yours. But please feel free to suggest any alternatives. The current pirates needs to go for the reasons listed right in the beginning up there on this talk page. Thanks--Termer 07:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is not just "my opinion", it is also the opinion of the BBC, and even your source claims that they were "predominantly men from the areas now known as Norway, Sweden and Denmark", which is why you can't brush it away calling it "only because in your opinion". I suggest "Estonian raiders" which conveys the same meaning without the ambiguity.--Berig 07:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article only talks about the Vikings that left mark on Britain. That is a POV. Thats fine but it's not a valid argument to dismiss all the books listed above. Estonian raiders would be fine in case we call the WP article Vikings Scandinavian raiders--Termer 07:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC) --Termer 07:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) says that "Viking" means:
1. One of a seafaring Scandinavian people who plundered the coasts of northern and western Europe from the eighth through the tenth century.
2. A Scandinavian.
These are the meanings of "Viking" in the English language, so the name you are suggesting is misleading. You are basing your arguments on metaphorical uses of the word.--Berig 07:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

neither term seems to have any sort of currency. How about widening the scope to Viking Age Estonia? The period is so far only addressed at History_of_Estonia#Early_Middle_Ages, and it is unclear whether these viking activities should stand as a full article. It would be better to treat the period in context. dab (𒁳) 07:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Please Berig do not take the discussion into circles. Martintg has already pointed out that your opinion is incorrect and I hate to repeat this once more: so do the published books in English and Norwegian listed above.--Termer 07:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Termer, the American Heritage Dictionary is a reliable source for the meaning of "Viking" in the English language, whereas your sources are not since they are not dictionaries and are likely to use the word in a metaphorical way.--Berig 07:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

PS. regarding: The American Heritage Dictionary, sorry, I have put some work into Viking#Etymology and there is much more to the word than this dictionary provides.--Termer 08:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Termer you are talking of etymology and of metaphorical uses. The American Heritage Dictionary talks of what "Viking" means in the English language. You can search for as many metaphorical uses of the word as you want to, but it does not change what standard dictionaries say about the meaning of the word in English. What you are doing is called casuistry.--Berig 08:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Please let me point out once more that the discussion is not about calling this article Vikings but Estonian Vikings. All your consernes regarding casuistry should be addressed to the English speaking authors listed above. And I'm sorry to hear that you don't consider the Olav Trygvassons saga in Norwegian and Heimskringla in Swedish regarding vikings -reliable sources. :-D this is not going anywhere. goodbye.--Termer 08:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

No, unlike the National Heritage Dictionary, Olav Tyggvasson's saga is not a reliable source for the modern English language, but it is a reliable source for what víkingr meant in Old Norse. English language authors are at their liberty to use metaphors as they wish, but we are writing an encyclopedia where we try to avoid ambiguity which means that we should avoid metaphorical expressions in the titles. I hope that you see my point and don't leave the discussion.--Berig 08:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Victor Falk, there is no such thing as a "true sense" of a word. There are conventional and generally accepted meanings that change over time in a given language and we are talking of modern English. You are talking about etymology and with that way of reasoning "English" should only be applied to the German dialect of Angeln from where the Angles came to England.--Berig 07:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Berig like I said yesterday, there is no point for you to keep repeating yourself, everybody got it I'm sure already at the first time. First of all the editors who have clearly noted on their talk pages that their native language is English must have understood what you keep saying. Instead I'd suggest you'd look up any sources for the current title as it is unreferenced , it can and will be challenged any time by any editor. I also would have to disregard the current comments by :bloodofox: and User:Briangotts since you have called them up here on their talk pages. Unless of course you think that the editors who oppose your opinion should do the same and call up anybody who'd support our take on the subject? However, even though you have called up supporters for your opinion, it doesn't really matter. As far as I'm concerned, the current consensus is to rename the article according to the suggestion because the unreferenced title and forwarded opinions have been challenged by numerous printed books also made available via direct links. Med venlig hilsen! --Termer 08:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


Thanks dab, to get a consensus here, Viking Age in Estonia or something like that sounds OK to me.--Termer 07:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

If we can't get consensus on Estonian vikings, then Viking Age Estonia would be a altenative that would align with the sources. Martintg 19:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have second thoughts about it. Viking age and Estonia is much broader subject about the era than an article about the people. The Viking Age, the era pretty much is like pointed out already currently called Ancient_Estonia#Early_Middle_Ages. the thing is, only people from the Estonian islands and western parts were known as the traders-raiders or the vikings. The southern Estonia had nothing much to do with it, like Ugandi and Sakala etc. therefore I'm afraid Viking Age Estonia wouldn't work really for the article.--Termer 20:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I am reading a book by Jansson called "Runstenar" (ISBN 91-7156-015-7) and which was published in 1980. He says on page 24 that there were Swedes living along the coast of Estonia in the 11th century:
På Finska vikens södra strand ligger Estland, där estsvenskar redan bodde när de svenska skeppen till Holmgård och på väg till Miklagård seglade förbi.
Translation:
On the southern shore of the Gulf of Finland is Estonia, where Estonian Swedes were already living when the Swedish ships sailed past on their way to Holmgard and Miklagard.
There were consequently Scandinavians living on the shores of Viking Age Estonia, so shouldn't "Estonian Vikings" be reserved for Viking Age Estonian Swedes in accordance with the mainstream meaning of "Viking" in English?--Berig 08:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

There were people living in the Northern Estonia who came from Jylland already during Bronze Age, I'm going to write an article about them later on. This one here please let me point out once again is about the people that were called Osilians and Curelians, commonly known in history of Scandinavia as Vikinger fra Estland -Estonian Vikings. The term doesn't fully cover modern Estonia or Vikings in general in any way. What has Estonian Swedes to do with anything here?--Termer 08:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I have checked another English dictionary, the Merriam Webster, and it says exactly the same thing as the American Heritage Dictionary, i.e. that "Viking" has a much more narrow meaning in standard English than the one you try to advocate here.--Berig 08:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Categories: