Misplaced Pages talk:Three-revert rule

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tom Edwards (talk | contribs) at 10:07, 3 November 2007 (→Reverting to undisputed versions). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 10:07, 3 November 2007 by Tom Edwards (talk | contribs) (→Reverting to undisputed versions)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Spoken Misplaced Pages

This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Misplaced Pages

Archives
August 2004 – September 2005 September 2005 – June 2006 June 2006 – August 2006 September 2006 – September 2007

Related talk pages:

What does "consecutive reverts by one editor are often treated as one" mean?

If this is a rule that is going to be enforced on a very frequent basis, as it apparently is, then shouldn't it be as specific as possible to avoid ill-will against the enforcers? This part is abundantly and absurdly vague:

"consecutive reverts by one editor are often treated as one revert"

Exactly how are people supposed to know how many uninterrupted changes they are allowed to make?

I have read that administrators are often accused of unfairness or misconduct, and that this is often upsetting to them. I respectfully submit that for allowing such a ridiculously vague rule to stand, and endorsing it by participating in its enforcement, such accusations and discomfort are not entirely undeserved.

Is there any objection to removing the word "often" from that phrase? Acct4 04:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Why, have you seen someone blocked as if multiple consecutive reverts were not treated as one revert? I find it hard to believe that would happen. Mango juice 05:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I have no idea, but rules that are not unreasonably applied can still be unreasonably vague. If it has never happened then everyone will support removing "often". Acct4 06:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I support it; I just wanted to see if there was some actual example where someone found an exception. The way I figure it, we don't need to hedge that rule because (1) I can't think why we'd need to make an exception to it, and (2) we always have WP:IAR. Mango juice 15:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been a couple of days, I'm going to boldly delete that "often". 209.77.205.2 04:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Danger Will Robinson

3RR is in fact the 3 rules of robotics. We must therefore have this be speedied since it is a copyvio. Oh no, I'm about to forget my sig! SineBot Help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.236.33 (talk) 07:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

BLP discussion regarding conflicting wording

Please note a new discussion on 3RR as it applies to BLP, over at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons#3RR exclusion. Depending on the outcome of that discussion we may change the description of the BLP 3RR on this project page. Wikidemo 15:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Currently, this policy reads, regarding the BLP exception:

Reverts to remove clearly libelous material, or unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material about living persons (emphasis added)

while the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons policy reads:

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced (or) relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability ... The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals if the information is derogatory. (emphasis added)

So the 3RR policy, as currently written, appears to be in conflict because it covers all unsourced/poorly sourced information (negative or positive), whereas WP:BLP limits the 3RR exception to negative/derogatory information.

Opinions of other editors on how to make the two policies consistent would be appreciated. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 14:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition

I wrote a crazy little proposal about a 5 revert rule, see Misplaced Pages:Don't violate consensus, concerning the case when a single editor is reverted by five different editors. I think it has some chance in reducing WikiStress, but on the other hand it is doubtful that adding more rules will help. I'm not going to defend that proposal, but I would appreciate, if some policy gurus here gave the idea some thought. I just think it might actually help in some extreme cases. --Merzul 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph that makes no sense

Note that in the case of vandalism, blocking editors who have engaged in vandalism or protecting the page in question will often be better than reverting. Similarly, blocking or page protection will often be preferable in the case of repeated addition of copyrighted material.

Huh? If a page has been vandalized, how is blocking a user or protecting the page "better than reverting"? That may stop additional vandalism, but it won't get rid of the vandalism that's already there... you've still got to revert it – Gurch 09:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What it means is that blocking or protecting is a better way to stop the problem than to merely revert. If I insert "merely" will that take care of it? Mango juice 11:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

User talk pages

User:Taeedxy, The list of exceptions should explicitly list user talk pages in order to clarify that users should, within reason, be able to control what gets displayed on their own page. I see no difference between someone's user page and user talk page in this regard, and it became an issue of contention in a recent case at WP:3RR. Can you discuss why you took this out? Ronnotel 16:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It should remain out because editors will use it to Wikilawyer their right to control their user and talk page per this policy. On occasion clueful admins or experienced editors will ask an editor to remove edits to their talk and user page for the benefit of the project. If an editor refuses then on occasion it may need to be done despite their objection. FloNight ♥♥♥ 19:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, how about adding a link to Misplaced Pages:Don't readd removed comments then? I've had WP:3RR cases where one user reported another because they kept removing hostile comments from their own talk page. Ronnotel 19:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Mistake"

I'd like a clarification of the following situation. A user violates 3rr, and admits knowing about the policy. But it is claimed that he/she violated 3rr by "mistake". Should the user be blocked?

What if the user goes back to wholescale reverting after the 24-hour period in which he/she made reverts expires?

Such a situation happened here. While I'm not disputing the decision made by the admin (as a non-admin it is not plac to do that) I want further clarification for such a rule. When is it applied, when not? How do we decide if a user has made a mistake?Bless sins 23:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's fine to dispute decisions made by admins; it's more productive to do it politely, like this, than to rant on their talk page. Then you can point the admin to the discussion, and everyone can discuss what's going on.

Here's my general interpretation of how 3RR is implemented. If the reverts were in the past, say a couple days earlier, then we generally let the issue drop, with just a note. If the user doesn't have a history of 3RR, and just got caught up in the moment, some admins are very generous about letting them off with just a note.

If the reverts are very recent, the user realizes they made a mistake, and they revert their own last edit before being blocked, that is usually accepted instead of a block. Some admins will alert users to this option and give them a short period of time to revert themself before being blocked. But this is a courtesy, not a requirement. If a user has already made this "mistake" before and does it again and again, that's a different matter. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

User space

Mardetanha added a section without any conversation that might be worth discussing first because it's a fairly substantial change to a base policy. I encourage some eyes on the proposed change he added (I've linked to the diff above) so any issues have a chance for redress before it turns into an official lightning bolt. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 19:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Followup, I guess this has been an ongoing issue, I see a history of adds & deleted, but little recent conversation. Before I revert myself, I'd still love to request some discussion about whatever open issues are causing folks to volley this back and forth. I'm leaving some messages to recent editors of that section to try and wrangle 'em over here for a talk. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 19:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I support Mardetanha's edit as I believe a user should be aware that they have some control over their own page, within reason of course. As per my comment above in the section User talk pages, how just providing a link to Misplaced Pages:Don't readd removed comments? I think that would satisfy FloNight's concerns as well as mine. Ronnotel 19:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

As a general rule, editors can remove comments and warning from their talk page beyond the 3RR limit without being blocked. By removing them we know that they have been read and inquiring minds can look in the history to see them. Someone edit warring with an user to make them stay is often upset with them and might report them for a 3RR violation. The best course of action would be for an experienced user to step in and sort it out by getting every one to calm down. Important to remember that admin are never required to enforce 3RR violations with a block. (Personally, I rarely ever block when users 3rr, instead I remind them of the rule, I ask them to revert, and start a discussion. They usually agree. This is usually much more productive in the long run.)

That said I do not think changing the wording here is best. Usually users have control over their user and talk page. But users need to understand that when asked by a clueful administrator or knowledgeable editor to change their talk or user page to conform to our standards in a particular situation then they need to do so. Telling them that they can not get a block for edit warring over their user page is ripe for wikilawyering and will make them feel that they have rights to their user page that they do not really have. That is why I object to the change in wording. FloNight ♥♥♥ 20:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

But what about my proposed compromise? Are you opposed to that as well - i.e. adding a link that re-adding comment to a user's page should be avoided. Ronnotel 20:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I generally agree with FloNight that it's better not to encourage users to edit war on their user pages by giving an exception to 3RR for that. I'm neutral about a comment regarding not reinserting warnings; I don't see that this is the right place for that - it should go in the guideline about warnings. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

as i see and believe everyone' talk page in his or her own territory and we should respect it .even by violating 3rr .though i prefer by not doing this --mardetanha 22:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It's more than possible to recognise that, generally speaking, users can control what is in their userspace, but we don't need to make an exception to 3RR to do so. Misplaced Pages:User page covers the ground on this issue adequately already. --bainer (talk) 00:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

but in fawiki we got some probelm one of editor's is going to be blocked by sysop for violating 3rr.so i think it MUST be in 3rr page --mardetanha 11:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps what is needed is a change from a list of 'exceptions' to a list of possible exceptions. Violating 3RR to keep a 'vandalism' warning over a content dispute off your user talk page shouldn't result in a block... but violating 3RR to keep a nasty personal attack on another user displayed on your user page may. Rather than trying to identify and list every specific instance where 3RR does/does not apply it might be better to provide some examples of the types of things admins may take into account when deciding whether to block or not. Most of the listed exceptions still involve judgment calls... if someone exceeds 3RR removing 'vandalism' and an admin thinks it is a content dispute they may still be blocked, if supposed 'BLP violations' turn out to be non-controversial everyday info supported by the references 3RR may still be blocked, et cetera. As noted above, stating 'this is an absolute exception to 3RR' inevitably invites abuse and wiki-lawyering. --CBD 12:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that there must be a way to express this concern while acknowledging that the right to control one's page is not absolute. Ronnotel 15:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Reverting to undisputed versions

After reading this article I was under the impression that it was acceptable to revert to keep newly-added text that is being disputed on the talk page from an article, and also to defend the inclusion of tags notifying readers of the dispute. But when I tried to do this, I was criticised for engaging in an edit war.

This really ought to be made clearer on this page, as it's not unreasonable to expect that removal of new and controversial text that is still under discussion would leave you exempt from the 3RR. --Tom Edwards 19:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Reverting back to an "undisputed version" does not exempt one from running afoul of 3RR unless one is reverting obvious vandalism or a BLP violation. The fact that people are willing to revert between one version and another indicates that neither version is undisputed and as such neither can claim to be the "undisputed version". If the version that you are trying to "enforce" is the version that contains the new and controversial text, just provide a link from the article's edit history of this version on the talk page so that other editors can see it. --Bobblehead 22:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't imagine where you would have gotten the idea that "it was acceptable to revert to keep newly-added text that is being dispute on the talk page from an article" from this policy. It's not inherently acceptable or not acceptable - what matters is that you should not be repeatedly reverting. The practice you describe is not exactly the norm, but neither is it a bad idea.. but if you find yourself being the only one reverting out the new changes while others are putting them back in, you should stop. If several people object to the change existing in the article, it can be removed. But flip-flopping back and forth does no one any good. Mango juice 14:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I just think that what you're saying there should be made explicit.

What happens if you're reverting purely to defend the addition of dispute tags (when a dispute is ongoing, of course)? Would that be simple vandalism on the other user's part? --Tom Edwards 14:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring over dispute tags is particularly silly. Everyone should avoid it. The presence or absence of the tag doesn't affect whether there is actually a dispute. If someone removes a dispute tag and you feel there is still a dispute, the right course of action is to find wider attention for the issue. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree... I have seen people both remove the tags because they think the concern is a non-issue when they shouldn't, and I've also seen people place tags over non-issues or resolved issues when they shouldn't. Remove the tag if you think there's no dispute left; add the tag if you think there is, but for crying out loud don't edit war over it. It makes the dispute worse that way. Mango juice 16:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Could this advice be added to the article, then? --Tom Edwards 10:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Emphasis

The three-revert rule is a good way to measure edit warring. But it alone cannot determine when a user is edit warring. This policy page acknowledges this to an extent when it points our the possibility of gaming the system. Nonetheless, I feel that this page does not adequately emphasize the idea that the the offense is edit warring, not breaking the arbitrary limitation of three reverts per 24 hours. The Arbitration Committee has repeatedly reaffirmed the idea that edit warring is considered harmful and has sanctioned users for this reason: edit warring, not for repeatedly reverting four times in 24 hours.

The emphasis on three reverts in 24 hours results in us missing the point sometimes. For example, a mistake I made often as a newer admin was to block a user who had four reverts in 24 hours, while not blocking his/her opponent who had only three. Both sides were edit warring, yet I blocked only one because she/he had crossed an arbitrary threshold. I don't think I'm the only one to have made this mistake.

Also a problem is that sysops come under attack when they do use their judgment. For example, when I've refused to block an editor who technically violated 3RR whilst other editors were also edit warring without technically violating 3RR, I've been accused of dereliction of my duty. Likewise, sysops who block for edit warring that is not technically a 3RR vio tend to come under attack ("admin abuse!").

Ideally, it would be good for us to abandon 3RR completely in favor of a policy that simply forbids edit warring, without some arbitrary limitation. At this time, though, I think our best move would be to keep this policy, but put greater emphasis on the idea that edit warring is the real prohibited behaviour, and that 3RR is an arbitrary (but often effective) way to keep it in check. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)