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November 23

NEW NOMINATIONS

Category:Star Trek-style starship simulators

Category:Star Trek-style starship simulators - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Not notable, original research, games already covered by other categories: Category:Space combat simulators, Category:Space trading and combat simulation games SharkD (talk) 09:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Byzantine allies

Category:Byzantine allies - Template:Lc1

Category:Byzantine enemies - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: This categorisation scheme is not viable, for several reasons. First, if expanded across time and space, we'd have enormous category clutter on many articles. How many "Allies of X" and "Enemies of X" categories could be appended to articles about individual countries? Second, the allegiances of political leaders – and the tribes and/or nations that they represent – are about as stable as the attention-span of a 3-year-old. One's ally today may well end up to be one's enemy the next day (for instance, the Lombards appear in both Category:Byzantine allies and Category:Byzantine enemies). Third, categories are simple creatures by nature, and are simply not suited to capturing the complexities of foreign policy. Few can be neatly classified as either allies or enemies, and certainly not without substantial original research. Politics consists of infinite shades of grey, and a simple Manichean classification scheme not only fails to reflect its essence, but can also easily mischaracterise it. – Black Falcon 06:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Hebrew Bible quotations

Propose renaming Category:Hebrew Bible quotations to Category:Hebrew Bible words and phrases

Nominator's rationale: Rename. The new name would be more exact, follow conventions used elsewhere, and help distinguish this category from Category:Hebrew Bible verses. Also, it would clearly enable the inclusion of articles dealing with words but not phrases. Perhaps its parent category, Category:Biblical phrases, should be changed to match, specifically: Category:Biblical words and phrases. Eliyak T·C 05:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. —Eliyak T·C 05:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:People born in Mozambique

Category:People born in Mozambique - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Totally the same function as Category:Mozambican people. Matthew_hk tc 04:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• merge to Category:Mozambican people or its subcats; no reason to think about delete. Hmains (talk) 04:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
• question. If someone was born in Mozambique but never really lived there for a substantial amount of time, isn't he/she not included in Category:Mozambican people but is included in Category:People born in Mozambique. And if that is correct, is that a reason to keep the cat? --Brewcrewer (talk) 06:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. People born in the former colony of Portuguese East Africa were born Portuguese and only some became Mozambican nationals or citizens after independence; others remained Portuguese. Nor is this a unique case. There's more on this on the talk page. SamEV (talk) 07:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Cities by geographic region

Category:Cities in Samaria - Template:Lc1

Category:Cities in Judea - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete These seem to be some artefacts from the early 'pedia. They aren't inherently useless, but I haven't found a "cities by geographic historic region" hierarchy for them, or even sister categories. Tewfik 01:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Judea and Samaria are the district names used by Israel to describe the West Bank. Those names are in common use in Israel. These 2 categories are currently listed as subcategories of Category:Cities in the West Bank and Category:Cities in Israel. Going up the category tree takes one to Category:Cities. That overall category breaks down cities by states, regions, continents, countries, bioregions (such as Category:Cities on the Great Rift Valley and Category:Cities on Lake Kivu), religion (Category:Holy cities), history (Category:History by city), etc.. See also Category:Ancient cities, Category:Hellenistic colonies, and many more. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Big can of worms, this is. Judea and Samaria are the Israeli terms for these territories, which are occuppied but not formally annexed by Israel. The categories include many towns (such as Tulkarm) which are under the control of the Palestinian National Authority, and this seems inappropriate. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No need for them if we have Category:Cities in the West Bank. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Judea and Samaria refer to historic areas, not just to places in the West Bank. Judea and Samaria refers to the West Bank. Slightly ridiculous, but that is the world... Tewfik 10:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Arab localities in Palestine 1948

Propose renaming Category:Arab localities in Palestine 1948 to Category:Villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict

Nominator's rationale: The article-space list that this category serves was long ago renamed to List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Additionally, it is in some cases being attached to every village that is over 60 years old, to the point that it is becoming useless. Tewfik 01:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is useful to have a category that lets us know and learn about the cities and towns in historic territories or nations. The list page only names the depopulated cities and towns. It does not name the populated cities and towns in 1948 before the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. See also my comment in the previous section. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
• See also a closely related discussion at CfD 2007 May 14#Category:Jewish_communities_destroyed_in_1948. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I can see both points of view in that discussion. I lean towards the view that categorizing towns destroyed or depopulated or moved due to war is very difficult. Because in the Vietnam War and World War 2 many towns were largely or totally destroyed or removed. What percentage of destruction of a town is required before categorization occurs? Many bombed-out German, Russian, and Vietnamese towns were rebuilt even after near total destruction. The discussion here is different. It is very useful to learn about the history of nations, territories, bioregions, etc. by following category trees for cities. It is a lot simpler to categorize too. A city either existed, or it did not exist, in that place and time. A list is better for delineating the various degrees and timelines of depopulation, destruction, removal, ethnic cleansing, etc. for cities, towns, and localities during and after wars. On the other hand one learns a lot about historical regions, nations, empires and cities by drilling down their category trees to various subcategories such as the category for cities. See Category:Ottoman Empire. Drill down to Category:Geography of the Ottoman Empire, and then drill down to Category:Cities of the Ottoman Empire.--Timeshifter (talk) 09:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment At present the category contains some places not depopulated, like Kafr Qasim. Johnbod (talk) 04:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
  • That was my point. The list was already scoped so as to only have depopulated places, while many, if not most of the categorised locations were not depopulated, but are tagged only because they existed before 1948. Tewfik 10:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• So you are proposing changing a category that fits its current name to a different name and a different purpose. What is the objection to having Category:Villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict as a sub-cat of the present cat? Johnbod (talk) 11:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Friends

Category:Friends - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete - following cleanup and with the remaining material all linked through text and templates, this is an unwarranted eponymous TV series category. Overcategorization per extensive precedent. Otto4711 (talk) 01:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)