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Template:Arbcom-talk

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Why are arbcoms rejecting the Mongo 2 case?

1. We have one editor calling another editor evil (above),
2. We have 26 wikipedians making statments in this arbcom, 19 in support of this arbcom, including many of the main parites, and only 2 against the arbcom (see below) yet 4 arbcom members thus far have rejected this case,
3. We have an arbcom who states that one editor will most likely get sanctions along with other opposing unnamed editors if this case goes forward. This arbcom acknowledges there is sanctionable wrongdoing. Then the same arbcom rejects the case.
4. This case has more editors making statments then any of the other 7 current ongoing arbitration cases (see below). Travb (talk) 08:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Travb, it's okay-- The Arb can punt when they think that's what's best for the project. The Arbs aren't justices compelled to take cases, they're not Solomons meant to mete out justice-- they're shepherds who try to take only those cases that will be long-term benefit the project. For some conflicts, the best thing for the project may simply be to punt and wait for more evidence to come it.

I for one take the punt as a total vindication. If _I_ were the problem here, if I had been guilty of any wrongdoing as the Mongoies in the RFC try to imply, Arbcom would undoubtedly have taken the case, as chastising me wouldn't have been dramatic at all. However, you can't sanction MONGO without upsetting his very active faction of supporters, and I don't blame the Arb for not wanting to take a case that would lead such widespread schisms if there's any chance whatsoever they don't have to.

It's okay. It's not my job to solve Misplaced Pages-- I just had to do my part. Maybe this RFAr will have been enough to stop the problem behavior by itself, and the problems will end. OR maybe not-- The next time MONGO bites into somebody, it will be all that much harder for harder for anyone to try to blame it on the victims. Eventually, the behavior will stop, or the call for sanctions against MONGO will become so deafening, it cannot be ignored. Either way, it'll work out fine for the project.

And now it's my turn to get to punt the behavior problem, a punt I greatly welcome, because even for only a few weeks, it's a cross and a half to bear.  :) --Alecmconroy (talk) 19:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

My take, actually, is that the Arbitrators rejecting it aren't seeing the forest from a certain tree. It's a lot of verbiage to read, and it is very easy to skim it and cast this as another dispute about the NPA policy. Nobody wants ArbCom in the NPA dispute. It might be useful to ask those who rejected it to not view it from the POV of a dispute over NPA verbiage, but as a call from editors who've run into MONGO across the entirety of the project. (For instance: Thomas Basbol has never edited NPA.)

The real problem is the continued disruption to civil editing, in many forums, by MONGO, and the lack of anyone willing to do anything about it because of the special rules for MONGO. ArbCom has taken plenty of unique restrictions on editor behavior here that would be useful here. Even a simple statement that MONGO should be treated like everybody else is a step forward. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Well, I don't see it so much as they don't "get" that it's a behavior problem-- I have more confidence in them. More likely, they know it's not "about" BADSITES per se, but the project has two very divisive issues right now. BADSITES is one, and the MONOGite alliance is another issue. Trying to deal with both issues in one case just might not be what's best for the project. Even though to you and I, the case is only about the latter issue, it does take place under the shadow of BADSITES, and so a good case can be made for sitting this one out.

BADSITES is never going to be policy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. The MONGOites are going to either stop causing trouble, or else there will be more, better opportunities to address that problem in the future. --Alecmconroy (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I think if arbcom doesn't take the case, you can consider yourself lucky you got to dodge the bullet from a potential banning. It fascinates me that you keep screaming about incivilities or being labelled, but you fail to see the hypocrisy by calling some people MONGOites. I think if you continue, you'll find yourself not editing here anymore. It's your call.--MONGO (talk) 00:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

MONGOites was just the best term I could come up with to describe the loyal group of editors who are proud to defend you against accusations. The term isn't in any way derogatory, it just gets inconvenient to refer to that group by such an unwieldy and lengthy phrase as "the loyal group of editors who are proud to defend MONGO against accusations". I know that a lot of people like to use the term "the cabal" to refer to a roughly similar group of users, but I myself will never seriously use that phrase, because it implies some level of deceit or nefariousness, and I detect no such bad faith. The fact of the matter is, you do have something of a leadership role, and there's a well defined group of people who have a considerable amount of loyalty to you and can be counted on to show up to defend your behavior-- recognizing that fact is not an insult at all. --Alecmconroy (talk) 08:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I hate to put words into Morven's mouth, but to me, this case looks like a good example of a class of cases that, as a long-time clerk, I might refer to as Matthew 7:3 cases. I suspect that the division in the votes to hear the case reflects a division on the Arbitrators' mailing list between Arbitrators who feel that MONGO's casual incivility needs to be dealt with, and Arbitrators who feel that MONGO would be less uncivil if other editors would stop poking him with pointy sticks. In other words, the Committee is as divided as the community, which is hardly a surprise, since they were elected by the community to reflect the values of the community. Assuming such a division exists, then a long drawn out case would likely result in a "hung jury" and the passage of a bunch of unenforceable platitudes, like similar past cases. Consider Matthew's statement of rejection to be an example of enough rope. Either the situation will calm down, or it will escalate in such a way as to make it clear who needs to be hung out to dry. Thatcher131 01:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course MONGO would be less uncivil of others didn't provoke him. Most people are civil when they're not provoked. What makes for good collaborative working is being civil even when you are provoked. Even if someone "deserves" to be told off, an effective communicator will refrain from doing so, because they want to keep the possibility of communication open, and they want to maintain an unimpeachable moral high ground. Misunderstanding this fact badly enough causes significant disruption, due to a careless "call a spade a spade" mentality. That mentality is essentially dispute resolution for those who wish to prolong disputes.

The simple fact is that you can't stop people from provoking MONGO. You might be able to convince MONGO to react in a less escalatory way to provocation. Wouldn't that be a win-win situation? It's not like everybody who takes issue with MONGO's (or Guy's) incivility is a troll.

I don't remotely think that this arbitration is limited to MONGO's behavior; in fact, he's not close to the worst recently. People on all sides of the dispute need a wake-up call: Stop attacking contributors; talk about content. Putting up with anything less is a woefully unprofessional and disappointing policy for our encyclopedia to take. -GTBacchus 02:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't incivil to tell people that if they are participants in websites that attack our contributors and then argue in favor of being able to link to such websites, that they have a conflict of interest. Supporters of editors who have later been banned for harassment and disruption, especially admins who do so, are also editors the committee should examine. Unfortunately, until we deal with editors who are trying to hound others off the project just because they haven't been treated like they own the place, we'll continue to see ongoing dramatics and wild accusations.--MONGO (talk) 15:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right, MONGO, it isn't necessarily uncivil to tell people that they have a conflict of interest. It can be uncivil or not, depending on how you do it. If you do it ham-fistedly enough, you can raise the temperature and perpetuate the drama. It's easy to say that we'll continue to see ongoing dramatics when your behavior is often a significant cause of the drama. Stop feeding trolls already. Please stop.

When you say "supporters of editors who have later been banned for harassment and disruption, especially admins," am I safe in assuming that you mean me? I wish you'd file an RfC on me MONGO; that would be so welcome. If you've got a problem with me, stand up and say it. I'm listening. -GTBacchus 23:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure he was referring to you. From what I've seen, you seem to be one of the more reasonable and objective people involved in this dispute. - Crockspot (talk) 23:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm frustrated, which probably affects my judgment. I think I'll spend the rest of the day offline. I apologize if I've offended anyone here. -GTBacchus 00:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't incivil to tell people that if they are participants in organizations that are full of communists that are attacking the American way of life and then argue in favor of not blacklisting those organizations, that they have a conflict of interest. Supporters of people who have later been blacklisted for being communists or fellow-travelers, especially government officials who do so, are also people the HUAC should examine. Unfortunately, until we root out all the communists who are taking over our country like they own the place, we'll continue to see ongoing dramatics, even if we blacklist all the playwrights. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If WR and ED were involved in important work that represented a significant social and political movement worldwide, I might actually buy the implication that you are a martyr. - Crockspot (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I got the impression he was more pointing out the fallacies in MONGO's argument than taking on any particular mantle. I thought he did it effectively, too, and that MONGO was going in a pretty absurd direction. He's so committed to raising the temperature, ED ought to give him a medal. Oh wait, they already have.

I'm really getting offline now. Anyone in Seattle reading, and wanna grab a drink? I'll be at Pizza Mart on the Ave. -GTBacchus 00:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Reducing case load and 'drama'

There seem to be very significant problems with the current ArbCom set up, which results from inactive members, case load, and fear of being used for 'Drama'.

Theoretically, the Mediation step in the dispute resolution process should screen out a lot of cases. But it only screens out those cases which can be solved by getting the parties involved to agree on a solution. This leaves the bulk of disputes unresolved and taken on to an ArbCom request. Many of which are refused. This has turned the dispute resolution system into steam cooker with the heat turned up too high.

So I'm going to recommend an extra 'layer' between Mediation and ArbCom.

It's work on a adhoc 'tribunal' system. Basically, someone wishing for a tribunal simple has to convince three uninvolved editors to take on the case. All three tribunal members then look at the issue, and take arguments and evidence from those involved. Then after consideration the three uninvolved editors issue a finding, and a recommendation to the community on any actions that should be taken.

Only if the tribunal can not agree on what should be done, or someone involved in the case wishes to appeal it, would the issue progress to the arbcom.

Implementation could be a simple page for posting requests, with subpage for presenting evidence and arguments. Editors wishing to act as tribunal members should just pick a case and agree to take it on. It could be streamlined by limiting discussion to evidence and presented arguments only, and deleting any outside comments or threaded discussions that might be placed on the pages. If the tribunal members feel that further action is needed after they make a finding, they can then post to the relevant notice board to recommend action. Naturally, gaming of this system in any way should be considered disruptive behavior, and risk community sanctions.

I believe this idea would reduce the drama in the current dispute resolution process, and reduce case load for the ArbCom. --Barberio (talk) 15:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

This sounds a little bit like the Community Enforceable Mediation system that Durova was overseeing for awhile, although that only applied when the parties to the dispute consented. Is that still active? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

A step in between alternative would be to have arbcom divide itself into panels of 3 to hear cases much like a United States court of appeals so that more net cases could be heard, with the entire arbcom hearing cases only if there is a dissent in the panel or other arbcom members wish to review. I have a concern that giving arbitrary editors tribunal powers whose decision would be enforcable by administrators could be open to gaming. For example, a group of 5 editors could rig a "tribunal" case for a fake dispute in which the "tribunal" makes a decision all 5 editors want which then becomes policy and administrators become obligated to enforce, whether actually consistent with policy or not and whether the rest of the community would agree or not. I believe any tribunal whose members are not vetted by the general community would need to have its jurisdiction and the types of decisions that could be enforced very carefully limited. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: To address the issue of out-of-line decisions becoming enforcable, Misplaced Pages:Community enforceable mediation added the requirement of community approval before any decision becomes enforcable, and also added limits to remedies: remedies can be imposed only on the parties, and no third parties or articles can be affected as the result of any decision). Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The big comlaint I hear with arbcom is that it takes too long. Partly this is due to the complexity of the cases. A possible solution could be solved with more arbitrators and and once the committee takes a case with a net vote of four, the comm members focusing on a few cases each. Just a thought. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Prototype for the process written up at User:Barberio/Wikipedia:Tribunal. --Barberio (talk) 16:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem of ArbCom delays had become ghastly for several months this spring and summer, but the situation has improved somewhat in the past few weeks (cases have been moving from open to decided much faster than they had been, although Ferrylodge is now overdue). I will take an interested look at Barbiero's proposal, but in general I don't see why the current system cannot work satisfactorily. Kirill Lokshin, who has been drafting the decisions in most recent cases, has also had the clerks prodding parties to get their evidence in more quickly, which should also help keep things moving more quickly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem, as we are seeing, is that Arbcom either can not or will not accept all cases that currently have to go through arbitration. The slowness of the process is part of the cause, but not a huge problem in and of itself. -Amarkov moo! 22:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

To which cases are you referring? What makes you think that the Committee declines to hear cases because they are too busy, rather than due to other reasons? Thatcher131 01:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The acceptance system as currently implemented requires a super-majority to accept a case. Choice of this system certainly suggest that acceptance of cases is limited to reduce case load. --Barberio (talk) 01:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The acceptance system has been discussed several previous times. Check the archives of this talk page. Thatcher131 02:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

(Moved from main page) Application of the Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks policies

Oh, Lord, not this. I'm uninvolved, but I really believe that it would be good for Barberio to read the article at WP:CIVIL. It has no particular force in it. It says that people should be civil toward one another. Civility, like obscenity, depends upon the viewer's standards. Since each person can interpret any statement as civil or uncivil, we have to employ community standards, and this effectively removes blocking from the hands of any single administrator. I cannot block a person for not being civil because, first, the policy doesn't have blocking as an option, and secondly because, as a solitary individual I am making a private interpretation of that person's statements. I need to appeal to a wider community to find that comments have gone from merely indecorous to actually disrupting the civil function of the republic of words here. Similarly, "personal attacks" has no sanctions in it. The policy does not say, "Block 'em." It says that certain "extreme" examples "may" result in a block. Both of these "policies" are admonitory rather than penal. Both recommend that people be nice and civil. This is because the blocking offense is disruption. If a person is disrupting the editing atmosphere, he or she may be blocked, but "disruption" requires demonstrated effects, not the umbrage taken by a particular user. Some long time users may point to their duration and contributions when accused of being uncivil, but this is not because one overcomes the other: it is because the long time of editing shows that they have experience with community editing, and the person complaining is probably representing only him or herself (i.e. that they do not represent a community's point of view and are idiosyncratic). More disruption comes into effect from people chasing each other about with the "Civility" stick than from any one person being mean, in my opinion. Geogre (talk) 20:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion moved from main page, please keep that section for asking clarification from the arbcom.

I'm sorry George, but I suggest you re-read these policies yourself. Specifically note that Civility is a core principle, that defines incivility as harm to the project. Admins are entitled to make blocks to prevent damage to the project. And the No Personal Attacks policy does explicitly note that blocks, or even community bans, may result from "a confrontational style marked by personal attacks".

"Pointing to their duration and contributions" is not a good demonstration that someone is currently being a productive community editor, or ever has been. You make the false assumption that experience equates to competence. Someone can spend five years doing something the wrong way. And frankly, in a project that's only seven years old, this isn't a wealth of 'experience' we're talking about. --Barberio (talk) 21:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Why was this moved from the main page? Editors who are not on the Arbitration Committe can post there, and have in the past posted there (for examples of such comments, look at the requests for clarification below the NPA and CIVIL thread). I suggest it be moved back. --Iamunknown 22:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I felt it was inviting a lengthy threaded "yes it is" "no it isn't" discussion if outside commenter's started in on this. If the arbcom or clerks disagree, they can restore it. --Barberio (talk) 22:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Request for clarification section is mainly intended for requests involving prior closed cases. General questions such as "Why won't the Arbitrators hear a case involving X" are better handled on the talk page. Thatcher131 01:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In which case, Barberio's request was missplaced, Geogre's answer was threaded properly, and the long time user told the newer one that it isn't so simple as all that (and got lectured for an answer, as well as moved). Hallelujah! Utgard Loki 19:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned, the above was moved because it was inviting threaded discussion from others, rather than asking for clarification from the committee. I begin to suspect that I should retreat back into wikisilence. Incidentally, my first contribution to wikipedia was more than three years ago, and I have been involved with the restructuring of policies and guidelines, as well as helping a major wikiproject get under way. I dislike having to present my credentials, however, I yet again find that a combative and aggressive tone is seen as the normal practice, and attempts to belittle others substitute for logical argument. I hope for change, but sadly this project is sinking more and more under the weight of the obnoxious. --Barberio 21:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not mean to invite threaded discussion, but, as yours was an outside view looking to apply a policy in a sweeping fashion away from a particular arbitration matter, I offered an outside view that suggested that the policies as written are clear enough. If you were involved in writing many policies and have been here for three years, then you know full well that "civility" is a goal, but the NPA policy intentionally has no consequences to it, that "civility" is impossible to determine, and that trying to do something like leverage a specific ruling one place onto a campaign for the reformation of manners (of anyone) is unacceptable, both from the point of view of arbitration and from the point of logic. Geogre 00:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It was not an 'outside view looking to apply a policy in a sweeping fashion', it was a question about arbcom precedents, directed to the arbcom and not the community at large.

And yes I 'know' that the NPA is 'intentionally' toothless. But this is solely because of the rise of editors and admin who don't want NPA to be enforced except when it's directed towards them, and prefer 'Civility' as a weak guideline so they can punish and berate those who 'deserve it'.

Also, if you want to accuse me of 'unacceptable' behavior, please don't circle around the point in a passive aggressive manner with that 'doing something like...' insinuation. Come right out and say you think I've done something wrong. --Barberio 01:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Admin enforcement requested

Is the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Admin enforcement requested (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) subpage actually useful? I highly doubt many administrators scan through there, familiarizing themselves which decisions that need enforcing; it is redundant to the purpose served by WP:AN, where all case summaries are posted, and WP:RFARC, where all cases and their remedies are listed. Also, I'm unsure if /Admin enforcement requested is even complete in its listing of cases which require enforcement. So, I'd like to suggest we retire it (not delete, as it is of historical interest), unless a good use is thought of. Opinions? Picaroon (t) 22:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It's fairly useless, yes; but I do think that a canonical listing, in some form, of users currently under an editing restriction would be a good thing. Kirill 23:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Completed requests will serve the purpose of listing all users sanctioned in cases, giving that it lists remedies and the users these remedies apply to - pretty much the same info /Admin enforcement requested provides. Users placed under editing restrictions by administrators after the close of the case aren't listed at either of these two pages, and although all users sanctioned after a particular case can be found at the logs of blocks and bans (or whatever we call it now), there is no one list of all such users. Would it be worth it to try and group those users altogether? Either way, this doesn't figure into the issue of retiring /Admin enforcement requested. Picaroon (t) 00:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I find it more than just interesting in the historical sense – it's a record of how the ArbCom members, and later the ArbCom clerks, summarized the case when presenting it to the community, and something that should be retained for archiving future cases. The Completed requests subpage is much more dry and boring. For instance, I found it interesting how FloNight used to clerk for the ArbCom; now she is a member of it. And how Johnleemk and Tony Sidway seemed to take turns in clerking cases. Also how the cases used to be summarized back in early 2005 compared to now. hbdragon88 (talk) 06:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-11-19/News_and_notes#Age_requirement

I'm really sad to here about the age restriction imposed on Arbcom nominations. Please explain further why it is such a problem to show private information to a minor and why we can't change the privacy policy instead of turning into a bunch of ageists. - Mgm| 16:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The Committee lacks the authority to change the privacy policy; you'll want to take things up with the Foundation if you want any changes made. Kirill 16:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that: I want to know what they were smoking when the Board decided on the privacy policy. I'm glad to see that administrators seeing deleted edits doesn't fall under this ridiculous policy, but it doesn't make any sense when you compare the two situations. Why do they treat deleted edits differently than Arbcom information? - Mgm| 16:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, ask the Board, then. We're not privy to its reasoning.

(The Committee handles very private information, incidentally.) Kirill 16:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Anything more private than the name and contact details often shared on the help desk? Without sharing any details, could you give examples of the sort of info you're referring to? - Mgm| 17:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

In one case information is provided voluntarily, and in the other case information is retrieved without a persons consent with strict restrictions on how it can be used. That is a significant difference, I think. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

We've done without restrictions on arbcom since it was formed, so it seems odd to start now especially when that privacy was in place during the last elections. I did ask Jdforrester (spelling?) and I hope he'll comment here soon. - Mgm| 17:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The Foundation significantly tightened the Privacy and Checkuser policies after the Essjay incident. Persons with checkuser access must be of legal age where they live and must provide their real identity to the Foundation. Thatcher131 18:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. That we have to an extent failed to follow appropriate rules until now is a very poor basis for claiming not to need them. I am convinced that the newer rules are much better, although I certainly think that several minors who play active roles in the community here are would make very good Arbitrators (Cbrown, Sean W., and Messedrocker in particular), and I am saddened that they will not be able to join the Committee for a short while.

As an aside, although I posted the information, it was not my decision alone, but by the Committee as a whole. Would people stop thinking that I'm some despot making up the rules as I go? :-)

James F. (talk) 18:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• The Essjay incident could simply be avoided by confirming his identity. Why make the additional requirement for someone to be of legal age? Minors can share their identity with the foundation with parental consent and if they are trustworthy enough to be voted into the position there's no real difference for the person whose details get shared. I'd be equally pissed if whether the info is known by a 60-year old librarian or a 14-year old student. (last bit of message added after edit conflict) - Mgm| 22:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As this was a decision by the Foundation, not the committee, it would be more appropriate to bring that up with the Foundation. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The privacy policy was the board's decision; applying it to arbitration committee members was the committee's own decision, based on James F's earlier comment, so I think they are the ones to raise the issue with. Picaroon (t) 22:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Our local ArbCom made the rather sensible (in my mind) decision not to have a two-tiered system, with a separate mailing list for issues involving checkuser (and other private) information and minor Arbitrators automatically recused from all cases involving checkuser evidence (at a minimum). Thatcher131 00:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

My thinking is that a minor is incompetent in the eyes of the court. So there is not the same level of accountability for a minor. Without this accountability, it is not in the best interest of the user, Community, the Committee, or the Foundation for a minor to have access to the non-public information. This in no way reflect on the merits of individual minors who of course may be Super Competent and Extraordinary People. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about under the Florida law that the Foundation works under, but Michigan law states that any contract made with a minor is legally unenforceable, and thus minors can't be held accountable for breaching contracts, including privacy violations. Rdfox 76 (talk) 22:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Those last two responses are the best explanations so far, but they still don't explain why the contract can't be co-signed by a minor's parent or guardian to avoid the problem of accountability as mentioned by Rdfox 76. As far as I can tell parents are already legally responsible for their children in other cases. - Mgm| 23:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• I've emailed the foundation and referred them to this thread. - Mgm| 23:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

There are two longer threads on this topic on the 2007 ArbCom elections page and we probably ought to keep the discussion in one place for continuity. For what it is worth, I do not believe that a minimum age restriction on arbitrators is required by the current wording of the Foundation resolution or for any other identified reason. The Board resolution adopted earlier this year imposing a minimum age requirement on checkusers and oversighters is understandable, but it still represents a derogation from our community norm of recognizing equal rights and opportunities for every editor, and its application should not be expanded any further. A narrower construction of the resolution is readily available that distinguishes between providing that a younger editor who is legally a minor should not unilaterally decide to run a checkuser, and having a younger editor (who has been elected with the overwhelming trust of the community) as one member of a 15-member committee or a 40-member mailing list. However, the decision appears to be a fait accompli at least for this year, as very few editors have questioned it since it was announced, the two candidates who were forced to drop out of the election appear to have accepted the ruling (with better grace than I might have had if I were they), and voting in the election starts less than a week from now. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Burntsauce "appeal"

Perhaps we could remove this request as unconfirmed and as possible trolling until and unless we can verify that the message is actually from Burntsauce. Something seems off about this, and it's out of process. Although the message comes from an established user. Burntsauce, for all his disruption, was (and claimed to be) very familiar with Misplaced Pages policies. This so-called appeal, addressed to an uninvolved user rather than ArbCom, has quite a few unnecessary flaws. The timing is suspect. We cannot be sure that the editor who posted it isn't trolling, or being trolled by Burntsauce, or being trolled by someone who is not Burntsauce. I see little chances of this succeeding even if it is for real. Everything about the original case and the underlying conduct behind it involved weirdness, e.g. one administrator supporting sockpuppets and another operating sockpuppets to try to disrupt Burntsauce's arbcom case. Two or three ArbCom cases have already arisen out of Burntsauce's disruptive behavior. There is no harm in waiting, and asking Burntsauce that if the message is his he can email a confirmation to ArbCom from an email known to be his. There is a harm in continuing this if it turns out to be a hoax. When the wider community discovers this there is certain to be a lot of consternation, and possibly disruption to other ArbCom cases. Wikidemo (talk) 18:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Personally, I'd leave it up and let the arbiters decide if/how they want to handle this. A clear rejection or acceptance by the committee would probably be better than just making it disappear.--Isotope23 18:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Burntsauce has posted essentially the same message on his talk page, so I think we can take it as authentic. Thatcher131 19:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, thatcher. Yes, I wouldn't dare delete a request from the arbitration page - that's for the Committee or its clerk. But I do hope they deal with authenticity and propriety of the request for reconsideration quickly rather than risk this becoming yet the latest flare-up here.Wikidemo (talk) 19:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that you or any other editor would unilaterally remove it Wikidemo. I meant that it would probably be preferable for the arbiters to actually reject or accept it, even if only to reject it as an out-of-process request, rather than a clerk or arbiter simply removing it as out-of-process.--Isotope23 20:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The clerks are quite within their authority to remove requests by banned users as the instructions and banning policy both clearly say that banned users must appeal directly to Arbcom by email. However we (Brad a clerk and me a former clerk) both seem willing to leave this up for the time being. If it becomes a troll magnet I doubt it will survive. Thatcher131 20:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't a question of your authority to do so... I agree that any clerk would be absolutely within the bounds of process to remove it as a proxy request on behalf of a banned editor. I'm just stating my personal opinion that, in this particular case, I think it would be preferable to have the finality of a decision by the committee on this matter. Sorry if that wasn't clear. That said, I also agree with you that if it became a troll or drama magnet, that would change the situation completely.--Isotope23 21:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the authenticity, anyone who wants a copy of the email (including full headers) need only ask via the e-mail link in my signature. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 00:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and feel free to CheckUser me if you feel it necessary, as long as you don't publicly release the IP addresses I edit from. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 00:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Nah. Even the email headers don't necessarily prove the request really came from Burntsauce unless one already knew what his address was. The post on the talk page is the best confirmation. Thatcher131 00:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Mailing List Confidential?

Are items sent to the arbcom mailing list confidential? It appears the list is compromised. Spatalker 15:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh? The email investigating user:!! was sent to multiple people. Eventually Giano got a copy, and someone also forwarded it to Arbcom-L. Giano posted his copy on wiki. There have been no leaks as far as I know of material sent only to Arbcom-L. Thatcher131 15:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not accurate. wr/index.php?showtopic=14172 Spatalker 16:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what is going on here. There are three lists:

Arbcom-L private and confidential for Arbcom business, confidential by Misplaced Pages and Arbcom policy

WPcyberstalking for discussion of cyberstalking of editors and how to deal with it. Subscription by invitation and private by convention of the participants

WPinvestigations for discussion of sockpuppet investigations. Subscription by invitation and private by consent of the parties.

If someone who is subscribed to the Cyberstalking or Investigations list forwarded messages or a membership list outside of the list, that is the business of the participants in the list. Nothing that originated on Arbcom-L or was sent to Arbcom-L has leaked from Arbcom-L unless the original sender also sent it somewhere else or if it was non-confidential information that was intentionally cc'd. (For example, when I was the only clerk and I proposed the appointment of some additional candidates, I was cc'd on some of the messages in which Arbcom discussed the proposed appointments.) To the best of my knowledge nothing that was meant to be confidential has ever leaked. Thatcher131 17:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Had the Arbcom as a body seen that evidence before I posted it ANI - yes or no? Giano 17:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Giano, on wiki-en-l this morning, Kirill Lokshin posted that the Arbcom mailing list received a copy of the blocking post a few hours before you posted it on-wiki, and that it was sent to them by a person "not involved in the dispute." I don't know how to link to that, but perhaps you know how to look that up. Risker 17:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

bearing in mind the debate here above ref: "kiss my ass" were they able to understand the gravity of the situation? Giano 17:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The conversation did not go in that direction, to be honest. My own take is that there has been some pretty strong resistance on the part of the community to an activist Arbcom that selects its own cases and develops its own evidence, and the currently sitting Arbcom felt constrained to pursue this case without somebody giving it some form of mandate. Mackensen has referred to their frustration of not having the case brought to them sooner. Ultimately, it was a former member of the Committee, who perhaps had a better understanding of the committee's difficult situation, who filed for consideration of the case. It was a tough call all around. Risker 17:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I can well understand anyone's reluctance to become involved in a case. Giano 17:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Early this year there was a discussion on one of the noticeboards in which a few of the Arbitrators asked whether they should initiate cases or wait for cases to be brought to them; the majority of responses were that the Committee should not open cases on its own. Hence for several days Arbcom could only watch in frustration, until someone offically filed a request to hear the case. Thatcher131 17:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Kirill Lokshin has said they first received the e-mail after the block and four hours before Giano posted it.

Just to clarify, I don't think the e-mail was ever sent to the investigations list. And the version Durova sent to the cyberstalking list is not the same as the version that was leaked. The version that was leaked is the one Durova sent out to people after the block. So I don't believe this leak originated with anyone on the cyberstalking list.

I also want to clarify that no arbitrator responded to Durova's thread when she posted the e-mail to cyberstalking. So there's no suggestion any arbitrator saw it before the block.

The timeline is:

• Nov 3, Durova sends the e-mail to the cyberstalking list. There is no proposal to block !! and no further e-mails in the thread after Nov 3.
• Nov 3-18, Durova said after the block that there had been other private e-mails and chats about !! during this period. Recipients unknown.
• Nov 18, Durova blocks !!
• Nov 18 or thereabouts, after the block, Durova sends a version of her e-mail to at least two other editors, but not the version she sent to cyberstalking.
• Nov 18 22, someone sends the e-mail to the ArbCom.
• Four hours after it's received by ArbCom, according to Kirill Lokshin, Giano posts it. The version posted is not the original version that was sent to cyberstalking.