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Archive 1 (pre-mediation discussion)

Thanks to the parties for discussing things while a mediator was being assigned to this case, albeit without much action in the last 48 hours. I am happy to report that one member of the Committee is about to pick this up. For his benefit and at his request, I have archived the pre-mediation discussion, so that consensus-building can start afresh and with the guidance of the mediator. Thanks for your patience and I apologise for the delay. Cheers, Daniel 23:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Eugenics in Showa Japan

view edit delete watch
Filed: 13:55, November 1 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Azukimonaka (talk · contribs)
• Flying tiger (talk · contribs)
• ZayZayEM (talk · contribs)

Articles involved

• Eugenics in Showa Japan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Japanese expansionism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• a few other articles involving Japanese activities, events and politics during WWII eg Manchukuo
• Article Comfort women was also involved in the same way as a source was disputed ]
• War edit has been extended to Eugenics since yesterday (--Flying tiger 13:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC))

Other steps in dispute resolution that have been attempted

• Third party neutral native Japanese speaker advice on source content
• Request for comment.
• Talkpage
• user:ZayZayEM's request for protection of 21th October ]

Issues to be mediated

The party filing this request uses this section to list the issues for mediation. Other parties can list additional issues in the section below.

• Inclusion of references, sources and links added by other users
• Use of encyclopedic level of English

Mediator

Hi, I'm Ryan, I'm an administrator here. Once again, apologies for the delay here but I hope we can get started as soon as possible. Firstly, could you all clarify that you're happy with me mediating the dispute? Ryan Postlethwaite 23:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm happy as long as additional issues (WP:V , See also content, Topic clarification ) are looked into too.--ZayZayEM (talk) 12:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

  I will remove myself from this discussion if this becomes an identical clone to the previous archive. The previous discussion has been archived, not dismissed. I do not think we need to go over this again. I will also not engage in any non-mediator directed polls.--ZayZayEM (talk) 10:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

  • If you propose it, I answer your proposal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azukimonaka (talk • contribs) 10:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• Hi, welcome; I'm sure you're competent and have goodwill but I hope you have also some knowledge of Japanese history as many technical issues are disputed. Most of all, I hope, if it is not already done, you will take time to read all the text related to the background of the conflict, in particular the links in the "other steps" and "articles involved" sections. We have waited for three weeks, we can wait one more to give you time to do so.--Flying tiger (talk) 13:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Hi, I've already given it a once over, but I plan to look deeper into the dispute over the weekend, so I'm sure by Sunday/Monday we'll be ready to start properly. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Completion has approached this discussion by the vote. I regret that the current discussion became invalid. --Azukimonaka (talk) 09:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi all, there seems to be a problem here with people going off on different tagents, with very little structure to this mediation, making the page an extension of the article talk page. I would appreciate it if everyone could follow my lead with this or the dispute isn't going to get solved. Ryan Postlethwaite 12:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statements

Please make an opening statement on the dispute stating the main issues with the article and the major points that you would like to see mediated. It would be good if you could limit this to 250 words. Ryan Postlethwaite 12:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement by Flying tiger

Hi,

I personally object to user:Azukimonaka's deletion of three points I added to the article .

• 1)The first point is a section on the origins of eugenism in Japan, which was based on Jennifer Robertson's article]. Following his habit, user:Azukimonaka deleted ALL the section, arguing that I "extract only a convenient place from the source to your insistence". ]

• 2) The second one, is a simple and clear reference to Herbert Bix's Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan: «One of the last eugenic measure of the Shōwa regime was taken by the Higashikuni government. On 19 August, 1945, the Home Ministry ordered local government offices to establish a prostitution service for allied soldiers to preserve the "purity" of the "Japanese race". The official declaration stated that : «Through the sacrifice of thousands of "Okichis" of the Shōwa era, we shall construct a dike to hold back the mad frenzy of the occupation troops and cultivate and preserve the purity of our race long into the future...» Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the making of modern Japan, 2001, p. 538, citing Kinkabara Samon and Takemae Eiji, Showashi : kokumin non naka no haran to gekido no hanseiki-zohoban, 1989, p.244 ». User:Azukimonaka, although he did not read the book, accuse me of "falsifying the source" ].
• 3) The third point is the section about the deletion of the Leprosy Laws]. I argue that those law should be included because some japanese scientists believed the body constitution vulnerable to the disease was inheritable and thius, proceded to sterilization as soon as 1915. ]

Finally, I object to Azukimonaka's personal attacks. For two months, this user is launching against me unjustified personal attacks ], ], attributing to me everything he doesn't like in the history of the articles. As you see, User:ZayZayEM and User:Saintjust even took my defense on this. Even, when I agree to his requests, this user keeps deleting... ] --Flying tiger (talk) 14:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement by ZayZayEM

Please also see my original "additional issues" listed here. (1-6)

I feel the best way for this article to proceed in a neutral manner is to remove the ambigious "Showa" period limitation. As an encyclopedia of all knowledge, Misplaced Pages should aim to have comprehensive coverage of eugenic technology, practices and social issues in Japan (and the world).

Secondly it needs some English language sources.

User:Azukimonaka has occasionally brought up some interesting points, but for the most part has been a disruptive and insulting editor. He has shown an inability to express himself with even a basic command of the English language. This has led to practically illegible text being added to articles, and discussions that lead nowhere fast.

User Azukimonaka has an axe to grind about issues of Japanese Imperialism and resorts to edit warring, flaming, insults and claims of conspiracies and/or falsification of sources in an attempt to get his way.

This user has a inability to understand core concepts of wikipedia, such as verifibility not truth and wikipedia is not a soapbox.

However, User:Flying Tiger might take note of the Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox rule too. This article appears to focus overtly on military ties to eugenic movements, and attempts to directly relate the issue to war-efforts. User:Azukimonaka has clearly demonstrated that the Imperial Army was predominantly opposed to or uninvolved in eugenics.

Things that need mediated:

• Retitling of article
• Origins of Eugenics in Japan (Germany?)
• Motivations of Eugenics in Japan (military? expansionism? political? racial? public health?)
• Whether Leprosy Laws can be considered eugenic.
• Whether Japanese sex-bars for US military during occupation were motivated (in part?) by eugenics.
• Contrast/similarities with Nazi Eugenics
• Contrast/similarities with Eugenics in the U.S.

--ZayZayEM (talk) 05:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement by Azukimonaka

• It apologizes for having made you revolted with my poor English. However, the knowledge of a Japanese history of Flying-Tyger was poor as well as my English knowledge. (Flying-Tyger doesn't know the history of Japan in detail because he cannot understand Japanese. )
• I thought that this article was an article on "Human-right violation based on eugenics by the Ministry of Health and Welfare". However, it was only a gossip and an ear duster in World War II that was written in this article. If the fact of a Japanese history is enumerated, I do not have dissatisfaction.
• Flying-Tyger falsifies the source. For instance, "And to protect the life and health of the mother as well" was deleted as for "The purposes of this law are to prevent the birth of inferior descendants from the eugenic point of view and and to protect the life and health of the mother as well". Therefore, I said, "Extract only a convenient place from the source to your insistence". And, I keep questioning Flying-Tyger on the deleted reason. ]
• the content of the instruction August 19 that Flying-Tyger wrote is completely different from the announcement of Japanese Government.

外国軍駐屯地における慰安施設の設置に関する内務省警保局長通牒(無電)

1945/08/18
外国軍駐屯地に於ては別記要領に依り之が慰安施設等設備の要あるも本件取扱に付ては極めて慎重を要するに付特に左記事項留意の上遺憾なきを期せられ度.
1.外国軍の駐屯地及時季は目下全く予想し得ざるところなれば必ず貴県に駐屯するが如き感を懐き一般に動揺を来さしむ如きなかるべきこと.
2.駐屯する場合は急速に開設を要するものなるに付内部的には予め手筈を定め置くこととし外部には絶対に之を漏洩せざること.
3.本件実施に当りて日本人の保護を趣旨とするものなることを理解せしめ地方民をして誤解を生じせしめざること.

(別記)
外国駐屯軍慰安施設等整備要綱
1. 営業行為は一定の区域を限定して従来の取締標準にかかわらずこれを許可するものとす.
2. 前項の区域は警察署長に於いて之を設定するものとし,日本人の施設利用は之を禁ずるものとす.
3. 警察署長は左の営業については積極的に指導を行い設備の急速充実を図るものとする.
性的慰安施設
飲食施設
娯楽場
4. 営業に必要な婦女子は,芸妓,公私娼妓,女給,酌婦,常習密売淫犯者を優先的に之を充足するものとする.

吉川春子『従軍慰安婦 新資料による国会論戦』あゆみ出版1997/11/01 pp.230

• Leprosy Laws is a law to keep a patient in isolation to prevent the epidemic. Neither Eugenics nor sterilization are related. He never reacts to my persuasion though I am explaining by using Timeline.

• • 1907, Leprosy Prevention Laws (癩予防ニ関スル件) purpose was to isolate wandering Leprosy patients. (癩患者ニシテ療養ノ途ヲ有セス且救護者ナキモノハ行政官癩ニ於テ命令ノ定ムル所ニ従ヒ療養所ニ入ラシメ之ヲ救護スベシ)
  • 1931, To isolate all Leprosy patients, Leprosy Prevention Laws　(癩予防法) was approved. (行政官癩ハ癩予防上必要ト認ムル トキハ命令ノ定ムル所ニ従ヒ癩患者ニシテ病毒傅播ノ虞アルモノヲ国立癩療養所又ハ第4条ノ 規定ニ依リ設置スル療養所ニ入所セシムルベシ)
  • 1940, The Diet passes The National Eugenic Law(国民優性法). The patient was not sterilized because Leprosy had been thought to be an epidemic. (This law is a law to remove an inferior inheritance. )
  • 1948, Leprosy and Haemophilia were compulsorily sterilized by Eugenic Protection Law.
  • 1953, Leprosy Prevention Laws (らい予防法) was approved. 　The patient was compulsorily isolated.

Start

Firstly can I ask that everyone keeps their cool here and maintains a civil attitude throughout. I get the feeling here that the major problem with the article is that it places too much emphasis on military ties. Would it be a good idea to cut this back a little, and then add more on expansionism, political, racial and public health aspects? ZayZayEM brings up some interesting points here;

1. Origins of Eugenics in Japan (Germany?)
2. Motivations of Eugenics in Japan (military? expansionism? political? racial? public health?)
3. Whether Leprosy Laws can be considered eugenic.
4. Whether Japanese sex-bars for US military during occupation were motivated (in part?) by eugenics.
5. Contrast/similarities with Nazi Eugenics
6. Contrast/similarities with Eugenics in the U.S

• Could sources be found that help to explain each of these topics so they can be expanded neutrally within the article? Ryan Postlethwaite 17:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

As you read above, one of the main cause of the war edit is precisely that some of the sources proposed on points 1 to 4, such as excerpts from Mrs. Robertson's article and Bix's book are not accepted by user:Azukimonaka. This is why we need a mediator...

For the Leprosy laws. I refer you here to Michio Miyasaka's article which refer to the fact that leprologist Ogasawara, denounced as a traitor to the nation in 1941, tried to demonstrate in 1931 that leprosy was not inheritable and argued against the isolation-sterilization policy. According to Miyasaka, «some japanese leprologists insisted that the body constitution vulnerable to the disease was inheritable» and «sterilization of leprosy patients was also advocated and performed by Japanese leprologists since 1915»

For the «military ties», I must remind again that the article was written exclusively around that topic by the first users. We discovered afterwards that eugenism was still in force well beyond the Greater East Asia War, so nobody has ever objected to the fact that the article needs expansion. --Flying tiger 20:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)