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Obesity?
Why does it always say that being thin is "judged as being attractive in Western culture". Is there ANY culture in the world where obesity is considered attractive? If no one defends this I'm going to go ahead and be bold by removing the POV dogshit. 76.223.237.10 16:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Define "obesity". Refer to the Rubenesque period in English history. There are many local tribes that do not share westerner's newfound love of thinness.--Loodog 22:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Check out "steatopygy" as well, a highly attractive feature in some cultures. __Just plain Bill 01:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Pictures, again.
I do not believe there should be pictures in this article at all. To put a picture'in an article about physical attractiveness is POV. I say someone is attractive, you do not. You say someone is, I agree, someone else does not. Just because the person in the picture may meet statistical evidence of what some polled people consider attractive does not mean that person is attractive. So I propose we remove all pictures. i 04:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, we've been through this. I personally don't find any of the people posted in image form attractive; they function as visual aides in demonstrating characteristics that have been shown to be attractive cross culturally.--Loodog 05:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Would you mind giving me sources that show a large majority of the human race find certain attributes attractive, one for both men and women, and then sources that say the subjects of these photos meet them? i 05:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- The sources are all over the page.--Loodog 14:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd have to second this, much as sexual attraction this article should be without any pictures, people have different preferences. I for one don't find a skinny, blonde model with what are most likely fake breasts, and enough make-up to shame Mimi Bobeck, attractive, and I'm sure many other people don't as well. Revrant 02:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, let me just quote myself since you've ignored it: "I personally don't find any of the people posted in image form attractive; they function as visual aides in demonstrating characteristics that have been shown to be attractive cross culturally.--Loodog 05:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)"--Loodog 04:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, I did not, and I'd appreciate refraining from such veiled insults in the future, blonde, over-tanned, make-up lathered, and quite possibly anorexic women are not considered attractive cross-culturally, how do I know this? They may just be in a short supply across Asia and many other places in the world. Also, deeply tanned men with exaggerated muscles are not considered attractive cross culturally, again most notably in Asia, though extending to places such as Africa and Europe.
- Hi, let me just quote myself since you've ignored it: "I personally don't find any of the people posted in image form attractive; they function as visual aides in demonstrating characteristics that have been shown to be attractive cross culturally.--Loodog 05:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)"--Loodog 04:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I reiterate, this article simply should not have pictures, what society and magazines feel is acceptable and attractive has little bearing on the reality of things, which is quite subjective and open to debate, and I'd fully support removing pictures if it was put up to a vote. Revrant 05:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Let me try again: "I personally don't find any of the people posted in image form attractive; they function as visual aides in demonstrating characteristics that have been shown to be attractive cross culturally."--Loodog 21:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- I won't be replying to you again, when you can find a less insulting tone, you get back to me. Revrant 06:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- What I'm saying is: Don't misconstrue every trait and appearance in the picture as something held or asserted to be universally attractive. The caption doesn't even mention Michelle Merkin or her skinniness or whatever trait you are repulsed by. It says "Features such as a symmetrical face, full lips, and low waist-hip ratio are commonly considered attractive." If I showed you a picture of Buffalo City Hall, to demonstrate the concept of Art Deco, you wouldn't think that its being tall makes it an example of Art Deco.--Loodog 03:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for moving towards intelligent discussion, I fully understood what you were trying to relay, but that's entirely too subjective, Art Deco is heavily defined, and it's quite easy to find present examples of it in architecture, physical attractiveness varies wildly, and there is simply no logic in providing pictures for it. Revrant 06:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- "physical attractiveness varies wildly, and there is simply no logic in providing pictures for it". If you honestly believe this, then this article can't be written at all.--Loodog 00:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it can, there simply must be some kind of separation, between the article itself and the perception of the topic at hand, if pictures simply must exist, they cannot exist as examples of physically attractive people, but under their own section, and could logically include what other cultures perceive to be physically attractive under this section. Right now, as it is, there is very little separation between the perception and the fact, which is extremely subjective and varies wildly, I think that is a viable solution. Revrant 07:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then, insofar as attractive traits can be specified, they can be demonstrated. The pictures make no claim about attributes the pictured people have that have not been shown cross culturally to be attractive.--Loodog 12:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good gracious, yes they have, simply by being featured so prominently, and I think the two should be separated for the sake of perception, what magazines and some of society feel is physically attractive has little sway with the public at large, and are extremely subjective. Listing what might be considered attractive versus pictures demonstrating models is a rather large gap, especially with pictures having such a wide appeal versus words, which allow people to fill in the gaps themselves. There is absolutely no argument for having pictures without attaching them very directly to being merely what might be "perceived" as attractive, and considering the vast array on ethnicities present on, well, Earth, the fact of the matter is, a thin, white, tan, blonde model cannot be attractive cross culturally in any meaningful way. Revrant 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Reread my last point.--Loodog 21:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good gracious, yes they have, simply by being featured so prominently, and I think the two should be separated for the sake of perception, what magazines and some of society feel is physically attractive has little sway with the public at large, and are extremely subjective. Listing what might be considered attractive versus pictures demonstrating models is a rather large gap, especially with pictures having such a wide appeal versus words, which allow people to fill in the gaps themselves. There is absolutely no argument for having pictures without attaching them very directly to being merely what might be "perceived" as attractive, and considering the vast array on ethnicities present on, well, Earth, the fact of the matter is, a thin, white, tan, blonde model cannot be attractive cross culturally in any meaningful way. Revrant 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then, insofar as attractive traits can be specified, they can be demonstrated. The pictures make no claim about attributes the pictured people have that have not been shown cross culturally to be attractive.--Loodog 12:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it can, there simply must be some kind of separation, between the article itself and the perception of the topic at hand, if pictures simply must exist, they cannot exist as examples of physically attractive people, but under their own section, and could logically include what other cultures perceive to be physically attractive under this section. Right now, as it is, there is very little separation between the perception and the fact, which is extremely subjective and varies wildly, I think that is a viable solution. Revrant 07:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- "physical attractiveness varies wildly, and there is simply no logic in providing pictures for it". If you honestly believe this, then this article can't be written at all.--Loodog 00:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for moving towards intelligent discussion, I fully understood what you were trying to relay, but that's entirely too subjective, Art Deco is heavily defined, and it's quite easy to find present examples of it in architecture, physical attractiveness varies wildly, and there is simply no logic in providing pictures for it. Revrant 06:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- What I'm saying is: Don't misconstrue every trait and appearance in the picture as something held or asserted to be universally attractive. The caption doesn't even mention Michelle Merkin or her skinniness or whatever trait you are repulsed by. It says "Features such as a symmetrical face, full lips, and low waist-hip ratio are commonly considered attractive." If I showed you a picture of Buffalo City Hall, to demonstrate the concept of Art Deco, you wouldn't think that its being tall makes it an example of Art Deco.--Loodog 03:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I won't be replying to you again, when you can find a less insulting tone, you get back to me. Revrant 06:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- Let me try again: "I personally don't find any of the people posted in image form attractive; they function as visual aides in demonstrating characteristics that have been shown to be attractive cross culturally."--Loodog 21:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- sorry to butt in, but all the pictures are of white people. I think that if pictures are necessary, it might be better if they represented more types of people. 24.74.141.22 01:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi. If you can find free pictures of attractive people of other races, you are welcome to change the images, though, keep in mind, that between three images, you're not going to get a mirror of American demographics here.--Loodog 02:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Abdominal muscle tone/adiposity: indicators of pregnancy
Not sure "adiposity" is even a word, but I believe that (straight) males are biased toward females with flat tummies, to avoid hooking up with a pregnant mate, and thus supporting someone else's genes. Pretty sure there is a reference or two to be found for this. Am guessing this would fit in the "Proportion of Body Mass" section.
Went looking for references and found this, which points out that the pregnant female form was considered an "ideal of beauty" at some times in some places, to the extent that there was a brief fashion of women padding their abdomens...
For now, given that complication, I'll just leave this as a note on the discussion page. __Just plain Bill 12:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Ugly people
If we're going to keep the photos of models, can we also have some pictures of ugly people, in order to illustrate physical features that studies have shown people find repellent?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 03:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- The title of this section made me laugh. I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. Anyway, to the question, I'm not so sure. I mean, that would be better-suited in the article Ugliness. But for either article, adding pictures of people and stating that they are found to be ugly would seem more off without a source, and even with a source, would seem in bad taste. Especially if the images are of famous people. Flyer22 23:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Merkin image and other images
The image of Michele Merkin has a POV description, the image itself is clearly retouched and a photoshopped composite, so we'll need a decent source identifying that this individual is considered an archetype of Western ideas of physical attractiveness before it goes back in. Guy (Help!) 14:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- The description of Merkin should probably be changed, but that image is a featured image, and I don't see anything wrong with that image itself being the main (lead) image of this article. This article is already sourced with what people find physically attractive, and these images are displaying what this article already says is considered physically attractive, such as full lips, abs, etc. If we should provide valid sources within these image descriptions that reference these people as being considered physically attractive, then that should be easy enough. Flyer 18:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've been down the picture road so many times on this article, I don't care anymore. Originally, this article had no pictures, and someone put up a "request for picture" template. I put up Jessica Alba as someone who obviously has big youthful lips, long thick hair, the appearance of clear skin, and also verifiably has the pan-cultural desirable characteristic WHR of .70. The image was her on the cover of Playboy with the cover stating that she was one of the "hottest" people. There were objections and the image was fair use instead of free so the image was changed to Merkin. I don't think she's particularly attractive, though I concede that she demonstrates the qualities discussed.
- That's when people came here and started misconstruing what this article is about and viscerally objecting to the idea of putting an objective wrapping on the irrefutably subjective concept of beauty. Others said that putting any image up implies that person to be the ultimate standard of beauty in spite of the caption explicitly mentioning the picture as a demonstration of the qualities discussed, thusly imposing an ethnocentric standard of beauty on the world. Do what you will.--Loodog 18:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Loodog, it may be inappropriate to say, but this post of yours made me want to clap, and yell, "Tell it like it is!" It sounds like you know that there is nothing wrong with having Merkin as the main image within this article, or having the other images exist within this article. And if so, you know that I agree with you. I just don't see the problem with Merkin or any of these images being examples, when it is clear that all they are doing is demonstrating features that this article already states (with valid sources) are physically attractive. Flyer22 19:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- That's when people came here and started misconstruing what this article is about and viscerally objecting to the idea of putting an objective wrapping on the irrefutably subjective concept of beauty. Others said that putting any image up implies that person to be the ultimate standard of beauty in spite of the caption explicitly mentioning the picture as a demonstration of the qualities discussed, thusly imposing an ethnocentric standard of beauty on the world. Do what you will.--Loodog 18:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I would recommend adding lots of images. There are famous iconic images of beauty from a variety of civilizations though out history from a famous African statue to ancient Greek depictions of icons of beauty to Indian sacred art depicting classic beauties etc. WAS 4.250 20:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not a bad suggestion, of course. Flyer22 22:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I would recommend adding lots of images. There are famous iconic images of beauty from a variety of civilizations though out history from a famous African statue to ancient Greek depictions of icons of beauty to Indian sacred art depicting classic beauties etc. WAS 4.250 20:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
children
Children are by definition beautiful. And since many people (pedophiles) are atracted to them in a physical way, shouldn't be at least one picture of a child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.73.179.226 (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- Uh...not if it's because pedophiles are attracted to them. And if it's not about the pedophiles, this article is more so focusing on physical attractiveness as being sexually or romantically attracted to a person. When most people think of physical attractiveness, they think in terms of sexual/romantic feelings, not on the simple basis of cute, such as a child being cute. Flyer22 (talk) 08:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?
Physical_attractiveness#Waist-hip_ratio i don't think this image really meets the article's criteria, but to some she might be beautiful. Just.. Not me. 72.77.93.122 (talk) 01:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- You're talking about the woman in the Signals of youth section. Well, it's mainly just pointing out how her youthfulness is a desired physical trait. Flyer22 (talk) 05:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, wait, you were probably talking about that picture that a newcomer put up in that section. If so, it's now removed. Flyer22 (talk) 05:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Focus of eyes during porn watching
Cheeser, I will reiterate what I said in my edit summary. The focus of men and women's eyes during the viewing of sexual activity is far from a "Social effect of attractiveness". Take a look at the rest of that section. It is also not relevant to physical attractiveness in general. Try human sexuality, sexual intercourse, human sexual behavior, sexual stimulation, or even pornography.--Loodog (talk) 23:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- So move it to another section. I also find it interesting that when some of the erotic images include sexual intercourse, you immediately speciate this to "where people look during porn." This article isn't censored, nor is its scope. This paragraph seems to follow smoothly from the previous one, and its context and content are just fine. Why do you insist on deleting it? Create a new section in the article, change the heading for the existing one, do something (besides edit-warring by repeatedly deleting perfectly good material). --Cheeser1 (talk) 00:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- My point is that there is no place in this article, nor could there be created one, that is appropriate for this piece of information. It is possibly appropriate to one of the above article I've mentioned. If you'd like this piece of information included (and it is interesting), look there instead of randomly dropping it into where it clearly doesn't belong.--Loodog (talk) 03:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Don't look at me - that info's been in here for a while and I didn't put it here. It seems to be properly contextualized by other information in the article. You may say "there is no place" but you haven't explained why. You just say so, and that's that. But I disagree, as does the rest of consensus, which allowed that paragraph to become a part of the status-quo version of this article. If you want to remove it, you'll need a reason besides "it doesn't go here." --Cheeser1 (talk) 03:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, fine. Surrounding section, outlined:
- Being attractive is linked to being a better adjusted person.
- Being attractive is linked to earning more.
- Being attractive gets you societal benefits.
- Being attractive is linked to being more promiscuous.
- Gender differentiation appears when people are exposed to erotic imagery.
- Yeah, that fits right in.--Loodog (talk) 03:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it doesn't fit its section. How about the article? We have entire sections on how men and women are perceived, physically. Gender differentiation fits right in. So be bold and move it to a new section or subsection, instead of cutting it. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- So we leave it in randomly? What's the point of leaving it in a place you concede it doesn't fit in? I personally can see no section in this article it is suitable for since this is about the reception of a sexualized situation, rather than what visual stimulus a person puts out in sexual and nonsexual interactions. I'm removing it because it improves the coherence of the article. If you want it included so badly, you are welcome to spend the time to find a better place for it rather than reinserting it in the admittedly wrong place.--Loodog (talk) 04:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, did you just say (excuse the paraphrasing) "forget the consensus-building process, I'm going to do whatever I want"??? --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- As of right now, the concensus is me and you, both of whom have agreed that the piece in question does not fit where it is. This means we have both agreed to remove it from that section. The point on which concensus has not been reached is if we want to put it somewhere. Fine. We remove this piece as per agreement. It will be reinstated when you propose where it goes and it makes sense to me.--Loodog (talk) 04:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- That doesn't make any sense. You've already been trying to force your deletion onto the article. Deleting it again and saying "if you want to fix it, do whatever else you want to undo my forced deletions" in the name of consensus... well then you need to reread WP:CONS. Until consensus is established, you absolutely should not delete it again. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Speaking of which. I've seen your recent move and do not agree. The entire article is about outward attractiveness, not human response to sexual depiction, which is (again) more appropriate to human sexuality, sexual intercourse, human sexual behavior, sexual stimulation, or even pornography.--Loodog (talk) 04:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Says you. But since you haven't built a consensus to delete this paragraph, you don't get to delete it. Anyone else care to comment? I'm done feeding this discussion for now. The content has been moved. It fits the article. You want to cut it because you "do not agree" and don't want it there?? Well, until you build a consensus to do so, it stays. Comments from anyone else? --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- You are concensus. Kindly reply to my comments in such a way that we can find agreement. That will make concensus. I've made points as to why this is not appropriate here, you have not responded.--Loodog (talk) 04:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Says you. But since you haven't built a consensus to delete this paragraph, you don't get to delete it. Anyone else care to comment? I'm done feeding this discussion for now. The content has been moved. It fits the article. You want to cut it because you "do not agree" and don't want it there?? Well, until you build a consensus to do so, it stays. Comments from anyone else? --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Speaking of which. I've seen your recent move and do not agree. The entire article is about outward attractiveness, not human response to sexual depiction, which is (again) more appropriate to human sexuality, sexual intercourse, human sexual behavior, sexual stimulation, or even pornography.--Loodog (talk) 04:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- That doesn't make any sense. You've already been trying to force your deletion onto the article. Deleting it again and saying "if you want to fix it, do whatever else you want to undo my forced deletions" in the name of consensus... well then you need to reread WP:CONS. Until consensus is established, you absolutely should not delete it again. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- As of right now, the concensus is me and you, both of whom have agreed that the piece in question does not fit where it is. This means we have both agreed to remove it from that section. The point on which concensus has not been reached is if we want to put it somewhere. Fine. We remove this piece as per agreement. It will be reinstated when you propose where it goes and it makes sense to me.--Loodog (talk) 04:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, did you just say (excuse the paraphrasing) "forget the consensus-building process, I'm going to do whatever I want"??? --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- So we leave it in randomly? What's the point of leaving it in a place you concede it doesn't fit in? I personally can see no section in this article it is suitable for since this is about the reception of a sexualized situation, rather than what visual stimulus a person puts out in sexual and nonsexual interactions. I'm removing it because it improves the coherence of the article. If you want it included so badly, you are welcome to spend the time to find a better place for it rather than reinserting it in the admittedly wrong place.--Loodog (talk) 04:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it doesn't fit its section. How about the article? We have entire sections on how men and women are perceived, physically. Gender differentiation fits right in. So be bold and move it to a new section or subsection, instead of cutting it. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, fine. Surrounding section, outlined:
- Don't look at me - that info's been in here for a while and I didn't put it here. It seems to be properly contextualized by other information in the article. You may say "there is no place" but you haven't explained why. You just say so, and that's that. But I disagree, as does the rest of consensus, which allowed that paragraph to become a part of the status-quo version of this article. If you want to remove it, you'll need a reason besides "it doesn't go here." --Cheeser1 (talk) 03:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- My point is that there is no place in this article, nor could there be created one, that is appropriate for this piece of information. It is possibly appropriate to one of the above article I've mentioned. If you'd like this piece of information included (and it is interesting), look there instead of randomly dropping it into where it clearly doesn't belong.--Loodog (talk) 03:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
So what is your point? "Outward physical attractiveness"? How the male and female form is perceived has nothing to do with physical attractiveness? That's patently false. Why must this offending paragraph be removed, because all I see is "I think it does not belong" without a serious or believable explanation. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- First, it's not even necessarily about the perception of attractiveness. The subjects may not even find the participants attractive. The crucial thing being tested is sexual behavioral reaction. The article, if you read its entirety at one pass, is serving as a description of what makes a person attractive. Second, we already have articles about Sexual arousal, Sexual attraction, Erotica, and Sexual stimulation (including visual stimulation).--Loodog (talk) 04:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- So we have extensive explanations of which parts are considered attractive, and in what ways. A section on how each part is perceived when judging physical attractiveness... this is irrelevant? Why exactly? --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- The subjects exposed to erotic images are not judging physical attractiveness. They are responding to a sexual situation.--Loodog (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Try wikt:erotic. To say that sexual attractiveness has nothing to do with physical attractiveness would be pretty naive. Erotic may mean of a sexual nature, but hell, the picture in the lead of this article has a topless woman. Let's not play the semantics game. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- I do not believe this is a semantical point. If I dangled a piece of meat in front of a tiger and watched its reaction, I wouldn't put in an article on how tiger's judge nutritional value.--Loodog (talk) 05:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- No, but if someone who studies animal behavior did, they'd publish a paper that would be a suitable source for such an article. And they do. Because that's how they study such things (not to put it to simplistically, but it is). --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Look, I would gladly concede that it is relevant to this article and the topic if, in the study in question, participants were asked to rank the attractiveness of the persons in the erotic imagery. Then, where they looked would be indicative of how they judged attractiveness. Where they look now is only a measure of how a person takes in erotic visual stimulus, regardless of attractiveness--Loodog (talk) 05:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, and in this article we establish which features of the body are a part of physical attractiveness. This study provides an explanation as to how these features are perceived. Do you want this to be in an article "perception of physical attractiveness" or something? It's clearly and obviously related. The fact that the study does not encompass the entirety of the content in this article doesn't mean the content is not relevant. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- No, I'd like it to be in Sexual arousal, Erotica, or Sexual stimulation. My vote is for sexual stimulation. This isn't people responding to attractiveness so much as responding to visual sexual stimulus, which fits perfectly in with "Mental sexual stimulation".--Loodog (talk) 05:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- And you can add it to whatever other articles you like. It can go in more place than one. It is still relevant to this article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't people responding to attractiveness so much as responding to visual sexual stimulus. If a person came up behind you and rubbed your dick, you'd have a reaction, regardless of the attractiveness of the person. This is sexual stimulus, not attractiveness judgement.--Loodog (talk) 05:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Nice strawman, but I've already explained how this study is relevant (graphic allusions to my sex organs aside). The paragraph itself explains the relevance, making note of how attractiveness relates to what features each sex tends to judge attractiveness by. --Cheeser1 (talk) 07:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- "I've already explained how this study is relevant" and that was rebutted since the the focus of the eyes is irrespective of attractiveness. Please explain how a reaction irrespective of physical attractiveness belongs in an article about physical attractiveness.--Loodog (talk) 14:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Nice strawman, but I've already explained how this study is relevant (graphic allusions to my sex organs aside). The paragraph itself explains the relevance, making note of how attractiveness relates to what features each sex tends to judge attractiveness by. --Cheeser1 (talk) 07:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't people responding to attractiveness so much as responding to visual sexual stimulus. If a person came up behind you and rubbed your dick, you'd have a reaction, regardless of the attractiveness of the person. This is sexual stimulus, not attractiveness judgement.--Loodog (talk) 05:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- And you can add it to whatever other articles you like. It can go in more place than one. It is still relevant to this article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- No, I'd like it to be in Sexual arousal, Erotica, or Sexual stimulation. My vote is for sexual stimulation. This isn't people responding to attractiveness so much as responding to visual sexual stimulus, which fits perfectly in with "Mental sexual stimulation".--Loodog (talk) 05:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, and in this article we establish which features of the body are a part of physical attractiveness. This study provides an explanation as to how these features are perceived. Do you want this to be in an article "perception of physical attractiveness" or something? It's clearly and obviously related. The fact that the study does not encompass the entirety of the content in this article doesn't mean the content is not relevant. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Look, I would gladly concede that it is relevant to this article and the topic if, in the study in question, participants were asked to rank the attractiveness of the persons in the erotic imagery. Then, where they looked would be indicative of how they judged attractiveness. Where they look now is only a measure of how a person takes in erotic visual stimulus, regardless of attractiveness--Loodog (talk) 05:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- No, but if someone who studies animal behavior did, they'd publish a paper that would be a suitable source for such an article. And they do. Because that's how they study such things (not to put it to simplistically, but it is). --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- I do not believe this is a semantical point. If I dangled a piece of meat in front of a tiger and watched its reaction, I wouldn't put in an article on how tiger's judge nutritional value.--Loodog (talk) 05:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Try wikt:erotic. To say that sexual attractiveness has nothing to do with physical attractiveness would be pretty naive. Erotic may mean of a sexual nature, but hell, the picture in the lead of this article has a topless woman. Let's not play the semantics game. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- The subjects exposed to erotic images are not judging physical attractiveness. They are responding to a sexual situation.--Loodog (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- So we have extensive explanations of which parts are considered attractive, and in what ways. A section on how each part is perceived when judging physical attractiveness... this is irrelevant? Why exactly? --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Both of you have brought up some valid points. However, from what that information is particularly dealing with, I agree with Loodog that it is better suited in the Sexual arousal, Erotica, or Sexual stimulation article. It most definitely would be better placed in one of those articles than here. Flyer22 (talk) 07:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- So copy it there. Since when is information relevant to two articles allowed only in the one "better" for it? --Cheeser1 (talk) 07:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- The whole point is that it doesn't belong here because it is not in the scope of this article.--Loodog (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Wrapping it up
Motion for the material under discussion to be removed from this page as per above arguments.--Loodog (talk) 14:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Motion? What is this, parliament? You want to cut it because you believe it's "not in the scope of this article." The person who added it, the people who allowed it to remain a part of the status-quo version of this article, and I who've objected disagree with this assessment. If you want a "motion" to do something, I suggest you submit a request for comment. --Cheeser1 (talk) 19:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Please stick to content and kindly respond to my point, that it is not in the scope of this article. Its endurance on the page is a moot point. It's been around for a little over a month now, and only because I didn't catch it before. You know that appeal to wikipedia existence means nothing. Second, if you would like to continue debating as if other people were here, I invite you to notify them so they may speak for themselves.--Loodog (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- You're the one who wants a change. Establish your consensus that this material is not relevant (despite appearing to be, at least to the people I've mentioned). The onus is on you to establish a consensus that which parts people consider attractive is somehow irrelevant. As far as I can tell, it's relevant prima facie, regardless of what kind of rhetorical distance you can put between this paragraph and other parts of the article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Stop ducking my points and respond:
- Please explain how a reaction irrespective of physical attractiveness belongs in an article about physical attractiveness.
- The existence of this piece of information for a month on wikipedia proves nothing because it's wikipedia.
- The presupposition of a concensus or lack thereof is invalid since, as of now, the only participants are you, me, and Flyer, the majority of which disagrees with you, not me.
- --Loodog (talk) 23:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- 4. You've already changed it, without somehow the onus being on you.
- --Loodog (talk) 23:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Points 2 & 3 are overblown nonsense. It's in the article. You want to remove it. So build a consensus. (A 2-1 "vote" is not a consensus). It's basic policy, although the edit warring you engaged in over this matter indicates you may not be familiar with it. As for point 1, I've explained why it's relevant. I don't need to explain how it's not irrelevant. You're asking questions that have nothing to do with the reason for including it: here's a list of body parts and features that affect attractiveness, and here's a study that explains which parts of the body are of interest during romantic/sexual/erotic situations. Absolutely relevant, a great way to contextualize the content in this article, and I have no idea why you're so hell-bent on removing it from the article. Are you worried about sexual content in this article or something?? Where does your zeal come from? Why are you so offended in that you (wrongly) believe I'm "ducking" your "points"? I'm sure you want the best for this article, but why does deleting relevant (even marginally relevant) content help anyone, ever? --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Edit conflict: What are you going on about in point 4?? --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Stop ducking my points and respond:
- You're the one who wants a change. Establish your consensus that this material is not relevant (despite appearing to be, at least to the people I've mentioned). The onus is on you to establish a consensus that which parts people consider attractive is somehow irrelevant. As far as I can tell, it's relevant prima facie, regardless of what kind of rhetorical distance you can put between this paragraph and other parts of the article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Please stick to content and kindly respond to my point, that it is not in the scope of this article. Its endurance on the page is a moot point. It's been around for a little over a month now, and only because I didn't catch it before. You know that appeal to wikipedia existence means nothing. Second, if you would like to continue debating as if other people were here, I invite you to notify them so they may speak for themselves.--Loodog (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
RfC
Template:RFCsoc I request indepedent comment in resolving the above content dispute.--Loodog (talk) 23:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The two longest sections of this article detail the parts of the body that are considered attractive, and how. Which parts are the object of interest, when someone is attracted to (or aroused by, or judging the attractiveness of) another, is of clear and obvious relevance. What's the problem, is there not enough paper to fit this whole article onto? --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
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