Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by FuelWagon (talk | contribs) at 11:53, 18 July 2005 (→first step towards punitive measures). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

For talk on why this page was created see: Misplaced Pages talk:Dispute resolution#Requests for comment and /Archive 1.

Archive 2 Archive 3

Deleting uncertified RFC's (again)

It used to be guideline that RFCs were to be deleted if not certified within 48 hours, but that wasn't actually enforced by anyone. Since policy and guideline are dictated by consensus, and consensus doesn't wish this enforced, it isn't guideline any more. Hence, the rewording of the template. Somebody is probably going to cite WP:POINT in the next couple of days, but the fact is that wording should reflect actual practice, if actual practice doesn't live up to theoretical wording. Radiant_* 14:57, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

It's apparent that you haven't read this talk page. This topic has been brought up before and dismissed. Deletion of uncertified RFC's is preferred. Do not assume that because this page has had little admin maintenance that it implies a change to a long-help practice is necessary. -- Netoholic @ 01:12, 2005 May 24 (UTC)

• Please provide evidence for your claims. To my best knowledge, that simply isn't the case. For instance, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Danny was never deleted by anyone, and a request on WP:AN yielded no response. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Kappa was considered by many to be improper, yet several people have refused to delete it on grounds that it's improper to delete any RFC. Radiant_* 07:29, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • I have left messages for both of those users asking if they want the respective RfCs kept. If not, I will delete them per policy. SWAdair | Talk 06:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• See also Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Requests for comment/Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, which many people argue should be kept despite being invalid (some people also argue that it isn't invalid, but that's not my point). Radiant_* 08:00, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • Hehe... Interesting but so far from ordinary that it can't be used as a precedent. Subject of RfC was the second certifier, VfD consensus was that this made it a valid RfC. SWAdair | Talk 06:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• See also Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/User:Amgine/Maureen's RfC, which again is a failed attempt to have an uncertified RFC deleted. Radiant_* 11:45, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • The RfC was deleted. This was about whether a user had the right to keep a copy of an uncertified RfC in their user space. SWAdair | Talk 06:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• See also WP:RFC/Stevertigo, which did not get any certification since its creation at April 9th (despite being in the relevant category) and hasn't been deleted in the past month-and-a-half. Radiant_* 11:47, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • Deleted with the summary "Empty RfC created two months ago in the wrong namespace." SWAdair | Talk 06:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Use your browser's "Find" function and search for "delet" on this page and /Archive 2. You will see that deletion is a long-held practice with no consensus for change, when it was proposed before. Your examples only show that recently the page has lacked admin attention -- they do not show that opinions about deletion have changed. -- Netoholic @ 12:48, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

• Okay, I just did that, and it proves you wrong. The above has you as the sole defendant on deleting RFCs, and on Archive 2, Michael Snow says that Removed has meant, in practice, only that the listing is removed from RfC. and in the later discussion a sizeable amount of people do not want them deleted, once more with you as the most vocal defendant, and JGuk as the only one backing you. The recent events I've repeatedly pointed out to you don't just show that no admins archive this page, but also that if brought to their attention, they are entirely unwilling to delete invalid RFCs. Radiant_* 13:31, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

If you disagree, then ask the question directly, prove consensus. In the meantime, stope revert warring, because the page should remain in its original state until this is settled. Few people have that page on their watchlists, and your change is somewhat sneaky. -- Netoholic @ 01:22, 2005 May 31 (UTC)

• I did ask my question directly on AN/I and nobody responded. This has nothing to do with sneaky since I explained it in this talk section. The earlier conversations you pointed out show that there is no consensus for deleting RFC pages, nor is it a valid deletion criteria anywhere in deletion policy. There have been several RFCs in the past half year that were invalid, but none were deleted. The RFC template is simply misleading. Radiant_* 08:11, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
• Let's take this example... Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Uncle_G. It is not certified, and is presently two and a half days old. Now if you are correct about RFC procedure, then it will be unlisted and deleted as soon as it's brought to the admins' attention (which would be relatively easy; there are likely some admins who read RFC regularly, and otherwise putting it on AN/I, or adding a {db} tag, would do it). We'll see what happens. Radiant_* 08:58, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
  • I have left a message on Uncle G's talk page asking if he wants the RfC kept. If not, I will delete it per policy. SWAdair | Talk 06:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks, SWAdair. I've in the past tried to get a couple of them deleted, but have not met with any success. Thus I'm not sure where consensus lies. But personally I think that uncertified RFCs are close to personal attacks and should be removed. Radiant_* 11:06, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
  • Then, why in the hell were you arguing the opposite at the top of this section? -- Netoholic @ 13:31, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)
    • No swearing please. If SWAdair can delete them without raising opposition, that would show there's less opposition than I originally thought. You have not shown any evidence - he has, by doing that. Also, I find his civil and polite words more convincing than your hostile responses. Radiant_* 13:39, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
      • I ask again, why, if you agree that uncertified RFC's should be deleted, did you argue the opposite and try and change this established procedure even after I pointed out that you were mistaking lack of admin attention for consensus to change and declaring "it isn't guideline any more". -- Netoholic @ 20:10, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)
        • Because there is a difference between what I agree with, and what consensus thinks - and obviously, the latter takes precedence. Radiant_* 07:38, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • Policy and practice should be in agreement. Radiant found that they weren't being deleted, even after prodding, so he correctly concluded that the official procedure was not being applied and should therefore be rewritten. Kappa 20:43, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

          That argument escapes my understanding. WP:TFD often lacks admin attention... should we then infer that the standards for template deletion should change? -- Netoholic @ 20:51, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

          • If, after repeatedly asking people, those people still would not do what TFD claims to be official procedure, then in that case the procedure would be wrong. WP lives by consensus, not bureaucracy. Radiant_* 07:38, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • • I am more than happy to look after the uncertified RFCs, if they want deleting. smoddy 20:46, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
            • Thanks :) I can do them myself, too, as of this morning. Radiant_* 07:38, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Archiving RFC

The vast majority of RFCs are never officially closed as 'resolved', people just stop editing them when the answer is satisfactory (or, but rarely, when there's no point in continuing it). This has lead to the RFC page becoming overly long with old listings. I have been manually cleaning it out every couple weeks, by taking a bunch of old ones and moving them into the archive, and nobody has objected so far.

I would think it sensible to employ a bot for this work. It seems possible to have it come by weekly (for instance) and look at all RFCs linked from this page, and archive any of them that have not been edited for two weeks. I think it's reasonable to assume that if an RFC is dormant for two weeks, it will not continue very often (and in the rare cases where it does, moving it back is trivial). Any thoughs? Suggestions? Objections? Radiant_* 08:13, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

• There are no objections up to now. If there aren't any in the next couple of days, I will ask the botters to go ahead and automate. Radiant_* 11:29, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

I completely object to a bot running on this page. Disputes do not expire after two weeks - this task requires a human touch. -- Netoholic @ 01:09, 2005 May 24 (UTC)

• What I mentioned was after two weeks of inactivity, not two weeks after creation. How else do you propose we solve this mess? Very few people ever close an RFC or unlist it; the list of article RFCs, in particular, had over a hundred old entries before I started archiving them. Now I just manually check, if it's been edited recently, and if not, archive it. That's eminently bottable. Radiant_* 09:24, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

The proposition is flawed, but I agree you're moving in the right direction with it. What should be done with a bot is to archive all RfCs, regardless, 30 days after creation. It doesn't matter whether there is recent activity or not; no new ideas come to the table after that point, only the same voices going around in the same circles. 30 days and out. — Xiong熊talk* 10:52, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

• I think that's a good idea. An RFC that drags on too long is probably 1) repetitive and pointless, or 2) grounds for RFAr. In those few cases where it isn't, it's a simple matter of re-activating it. Radiant_* 11:29, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

time you split

page big time to fix. rfc of people and rfc of content and rfc of other.

Splitting article RfCs by topic

On the RfAr/RFC page, Maurreen suggested splitting the article RfCs into the main Misplaced Pages catergories, Culture, Geography, History, Life, Mathematics, Science, Society, and Technology. Could be a way of getting more responses, by breaking down the list into more digestable sized chunks, and allowing people with specific interests to pick up on items which may be of interest. Thoughts? Dan100 22:58, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

• Shouldn't we try and clean out some old entries from the list before we see if this is needed? - Mgm| 15:17, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

This might also have the benefit of encouraging people to write RFCs about topics rather than people. I'm begininng to suspect that few of us are big enough to react well to being the named target of an RFC. Bovlb 04:35, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC) (cc'ed from VP by Dan100 (Talk))

• There is talk of installing a bot to remove all inactive RFCs. I'd wager that only the top dozen or so are actually active. Radiant_>|< 07:38, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

The reason I suggested splitting is to make the RFCs more active, to draw more attention to them. Maurreen 13:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would support splitting. — mark ✎ 08:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree there is a problem, RFC currently draws way too little attention, but I'm not sure splitting it up would help, Mathematics wouldn't get any RfCs at all and culture and history would get lots. I'd prefer removing items from the list sooner. --W(t) 11:20, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

I'll probably have a go at this tomorrow morning my time (UK) when the wiki's quieter. Weyes, I was going to combine a few of the topics together otherwise I think it would be too many. Is that ok? BTW I'm trying to keep on top of old articles - but 48hrs ago I went through all of them, and I couldn't believe how many active disputes there were - and that's only the ones which have gone to RfC... Dan100 (Talk) 19:01, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I tried to use the WP categories but they're pretty muddled, so I made up my own system. Fiddle around with them as you see fit. Dan100 (Talk) 22:12, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

• Aha! This is indeed an improvement. I initially thought RFC was to be split among different pages, and I'd say that's a bad idea. Different sections on one page, though, that's useful. Possibly the 'article title' dispute section should be deprecated in favor of this one, esp. since people tend to misfile title and content disputes. Radiant_>|< 13:52, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

• • That seems like a good idea, as it does look somewhat untidy the way it's formatted at present. Steve block 14:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'deprecate', do you mean drop having a seperate section for title disputes, and put them in with content RfCs? If you do, I'm kinda split - the current layout is very focused - content issues are normally quite different to title disputes. Content disputes can often be sorted out by applying the appropiate policies, where as Title disputes are a bit of a nightmare. I can't help but wonder if a lot of people are not unlike me - only interested in content disputes, and I think they could just clutter up the Content section. Title disputes also seem to go on forever - again, I'd quite like to keep the rapid turn-over in Content. So I'm sort of reluctant to see them combined. Dan100 (Talk) 20:50, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Dan, this looks good. Thank you. Maurreen

Misplaced Pages talk:Content labeling proposal

The discussion on the above looks pretty dead, but it's still listed right at the bottom of the page under General convention and policy issues. I would remove it but does it need to be archived or something? --Steve block 20:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I worked it out all by myself. Steve block 22:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

dispute with ... Mel Etitis

Hi everyone I am not sure if I am in a right place, but I am having a dispute with ... Mel Etitis on a subject and I would like to have a second opinion on the matter or see if someone else can look into this matter. He is clearly not following the guidelines. The way this site is designed, there is no room for improvement by users IF The administator is not accepting the changes. And what happens if the administator lack knowledge????? - Farvahar 14:30, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Is the page Ali Shariati, as it appears from Farvahar's edit history, or is it some other one? Has Mel Etitis used administrator powers? It looks like he just reverted on Ali Shariati; administrators are allowed to edit, like anybody else. Septentrionalis 16:05, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Yes I know he has the right to edit, but shouldnt he give a reasonable and logical explanation for doing that? The dispute is actually about two things, first this quote: “I have no religion, but if I were to choose one, it would be Shariati's.” (Jean-Paul Sartre) I asked what is the source of this quote? He is refering me to OTHER websites. This is ridiculous!!!! I know that this quote is false and has been made up by Shariati's supporter to make him big. The other thing is his degree from university of Paris, he dose NOT have a doctorate in philosophy and sociology!!!!!! What is the policy here, things that been entered here once, stays forever???? And we as readers should produce evidence to prove YOU wrong? Or should you provide evidence for YOUR claims? Mel Etitis has taken my criticism kind of personal, so he is not doing his job correctly, which is to try to find out if the information is correct or not. If you base your information on other website, then I am sorry, nobody will take you seriously.

In addition to removing the quote you removed all the categories from the article and made several nonsense edits. You don't really have the credibility to question the article when you are vandalising it. Make some good-faith edits, acquire some credibility, and then maybe people will take you seriously. Guettarda 28 June 2005 04:47 (UTC)

Well, same BS as before, WITHOUT answering the questions. Hellooooo, answer the question. Its you and your childish attitud that makes people vandalise the atricles. You put whatever nonsense on your site without having any clue what they means, then your lack of knowledge which makes it even worst. Forget about MY action, DO YOUR god damn JOB. Why dont you get that. Your actions should NOT be dependent on my or other people actions. This is like a more boddy boddy club then an educational organisation, provide evidence for the information you are puting out there.

Bad people dont take seriously RFC anyway, do they?

Okay, this is just an "I'm curious" kind of questiion. I think request for comment on mean and nasty users is great but I really wonder...does it do any good? I have seen a few of the people up for RFC flat out say they couldnt care less what was said about them, what decesions were made, and they would continue to edit regardless of whatever resolution was made. One user, as I recall, told the RFC to go screw itself, got banned for it, and simply created a new user account and continued with business as usual. This isnt a negative post, I really am very curious. What do other people think? Does it really do any good? -Husnock 28 June 2005 04:39 (UTC)

I think results vary. The one RFC I filed on another user seemed to have some positive effect. Maurreen 28 June 2005 04:59 (UTC)

If the subject takes the RfC seriously, all well and good. If they don't, then it can be a good way to get evidence in order for an RfAr. --Carnildo 28 June 2005 05:28 (UTC)

As far as I am concern, administators of this site are not any better then bad users. They dont provide any evidense or reasons for thier comments either, it seems they lack konwledge on the subjects.

Well said Carnildo "If they don't, then it can be a good way to get evidence in order for an RfAr" Why dont you help your friends to get the evidense for the quote above?

Provide evidense for the quote or REMOVE it

Provide evidense for this quote or REMOVE it:

“I have no religion, but if I were to choose one, it would be Shariati's.” (Jean-Paul Sartre)

Religion of Shariati is Shia Islam, for those(administators) who are not familiar with this religion, its the same religion as Khominie´s religion. I dont know if you see the problem, but this is an insult to Jean-Paul Sartre. Stop spreading lies and stop acting dumb like you dont get the question. Its your fault why poeple start to vandalise.

New related proposal

See a new related proposal at Misplaced Pages:Disruptive User. Vote! Howabout1 00:47, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Changes to RfC

I'd like to see a substantial change to the procedure of RfCs, or at least a second kind of RfC added. Right now, RfCs are basically a punitive procedure, which is strange, since they have no actual consequence. Which means that they're a frustrating mix of obligatory part of dispute resolution and waste of time. Here's what I'd like to propose.

First, do away with certifications. Second, do away with "endorsing summaries." Instead, an RfC should be phrased as a request - an opportunity for people to comment on a situation. The comments should be individual - no "signing off" on someone else's comments (Although saying "X has it about right" would be fine), and should be made with the goal of being helpful. "X is a troll who should be banned" is exactly what we don't need on an RfC. "X is very knowledgable, but I wish he would work more with the other editors and not try to overwhelm the article with his POV" is more useful. Or "X makes very good edits, but I wish she'd get outside support when she deals with users she sees as being a problem instead of being so hostile on the talk pages." Or "I wish X would warn users before blocking them and give them a chance to explain."

My rough idea here being that RfCs should be an occasion to get input on something - not an obligatory step on the way to arbcomming people. To do this, though, they need an identity distinct from punitive procedures (Arbcom) and direct involvement in a dispute (Mediation).

Thoughts? Snowspinner 16:38, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the emphasis on constructive vs. punitive. I have no opinion on the specifics. Do you want to try a draft? Maurreen 16:55, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• I think we should encourage people to establish more RFCs about specific content issues rather than editors. Having said that, the procedures for the former are woolier. Any does anyone feel that they work? Bovlb 18:29:51, 2005-07-12 (UTC)

I've started a version of what I'm talking about here at Misplaced Pages:Wikimediation. If people want they can try migrating the process over here - otherwise, it's happy to exist where it is. Snowspinner 20:08, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I assume this is referring to RfCs about people, not articles, right? Dan100 (Talk) 20:29, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Sure. Though I bet article RfCs could be done in the Wikimediation format too. Snowspinner 20:35, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

"RfCs should be an occasion to get input on something - not an obligatory step on the way to arbcomming people" I absolutely agree. An RFC should be only what it's name says: a request for comments. The current RFC system could be renamed something more formal, such as an "Incident report" or something, and have all its formal requirements for evidence of disputed behaviour, certifying users, etc. An "Incident report" could then become the prerequisite for entering mediation. There should be no possible punitive outcome of an RFC, which might mean that wikipedia policy would forbid evening mentioning an RFC or anything said in an RFC in any of the punitive stages: incident report, mediation, arbitration. The request for comment form could be quite a bit more relaxed than an incident report, because it really is just trying to get outside, uninvolved comments about some event. If the talk page for an article explodes from an edit war, and every single editor on the article has taken one side of an argument or the other, an RFC would be a way to bring in some unbiased people to weigh in, make suggestions, comments, whatever might fix things. To help define what is "unbiased", it would be interesting if it could list all the editors currently involved in the dispute, and then anyone who posts a comment would have a number listed by their comment that would somehow indicate how many pages they contribute to that the editors in the dispute also contributed to. Or how many edits per overlapping page, or something. Anyway, it would simply be a numeric indicator of how uninvolved that commentor is with all the people in the dispute, versus how much history they might be dragging into their comment. It wouldn't prevent them from commenting, but it would help the editors judge just how neutral the commenter really is. the opinion of someone who hasn't interacted with any of the editors would likely be more neutral than someone who has been working with one editor on another page for a long time. Something like that, combined with the fact that there can be no punitive outcome would do a lot to encourage unbiased editors from making honest comments on an RFC. FuelWagon 06:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

"Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute"

I've recently commented on three RfCs on Users, all three of which were improper in much the same ways. The main problem was that in none of the three case (RfCs on Striver, Melissadolbeer, and SlimVirgin) had any real attempt been made to resolve the dispute before the RfC was brought. Where diffs are given in the "Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute" sections (omitted altogether in the Melissadolbeer case), they're simply examples of the complainants' side of the argument (and often couched in aggressive tones, to the point of personal attack). Thus the RfCs were being used simply as weapons in editing disputes.

This seems to involve a deep misunderstanding of what RfCs are for; unfortunately, in one of the three case (SlimVirgin) the RfC has been endorsed by an editor who's been around long enough to know better, who's an admin and a bureaucrat. The problem is that having had an RfC on one, even when it foundered for lack of support, can constitute something of a black mark. What can be done to discourage this sort of thing? perhaps a small group of people (call them a committee, if you like) who examine RfCs, and remove those that have been brought improperly or prematurely? Any other thoughts? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment regarding the SlimVirgin RFC. The diffs for "trying to resolve and fail" have been changed to better examples. FuelWagon 23:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Wow, the diffs that are there now are better examples? They're not examples at all, and I explain why in detail in my endorsement of SlimVirgin's summary. They're also not by two different people! If there have genuinely been two attempts at resolution and discussion, please document them before the 48 hours are up. If there haven't been, this RFC needs to be removed. Bishonen | talk 00:34, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

(PS — I suppose that this isn't unconnected with the previous section. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC))

• I agree with Mel's comments, and would like to add the RFCs on DreamGuy (which is OK now but started as a 'quickpoll' to get him banned), and several others I've deleted recently for being uncertified and rather messy , or borderline personal attacks , .
• I think that the current RFC process isn't working at all and should be scrapped entirely in favor of something else. The first problem is that some people don't use the template provided, but simply start writing somewhat incoherently. The second problem is that the template focuses heavily on evidence and policy transgressions. Basicaly, it's saying "I accuse User:SomeUser of this and that; all in favor, say aye".
• Mediation would be reasonable. Unfortunately, we now have four such processes (WP:RFM, WP:TINMC, Misplaced Pages:Mediation (2005)/Requests for mediation and Misplaced Pages:Wikimediation) and none of them seem to be helping much.
• What I think would help a lot, is focusing on the conflict rather than the user. People often claim that User:AnnoyingPerson is making a lot of mistakes, but generally the point is that said user himself has a conflict with the other user, and in most cases both parties have a point but are both somewhat stubborn. A sample template might look like this,
  • Location of the dispute: MyFavoriteArticle
  • People involved: User:AnnoyingPerson and User:Me
  • Opinion of User:Me (please restrict to 100 words or less, and provide 3-5 diffs as samples; do not cite policy)
  • Opinion of User:AnnoyingPerson (ditto)
  • Proposed solution by User:SomeOutsider (involved parties should be hesitant about adding their own solution, and any solution like 'User:AnnoyingPerson should be banned' must be stricken).
• Okay, that was my $.2 - comments welcome, of course. Radiant_>|< 13:54, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

On the User:Striver business, I don't think you should take my (unfortunate) habit of obessing on my own edits as evidence that no one has tried to work things out with him. I am guessing this is just a case of me not supplying the proper links. (First timer on this.)

For evidence that people have indeed tried and failed to work things out with User:Striver, see , ] and many other pleas from more tactful and less self-obsessed editors than me. BrandonYusufToropov 17:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Radiant, I haven't had much experience with RFCs on people, but I have had experience with article RFCs and have to say I feel they're thoroughly inadequate, mostly because they're thoroughly overlooked; most get few if any visitors. I think the RFC process can be of tremendous help in resolving article disputes, IF anybody bothers to take one on. I've begun making a habit of picking a couple of article content RFC's and trying to help them to resolutions, with some measure of success. I'm not sure that more strictures are what's needed, though -- I feel like it's a less cumbersome process than, say, mediation, and possibly more effective in certain circumstances because of it. I'm not sure even that the structure of the RFC process (again, for article content disputes) needs to be changed, but maybe there needs to be more of a centralized effort to involve editors in "patrolling" for ones they can weigh in on. There are already committees atop committees, but maybe a group of people who monitor listed RFCs and are ready to step in and help on one or two a month, say, in areas in which they have some interest. I've been thinking about this very thing for some time now. · Katefan0 01:25, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

The RfC process was doubtless intended to be a way of making a user aware that the community disapproved of her actions, in the hope that that would take the place of more authoritarian, punitive processes. The trouble is that there are two sorts of RfC: those that are frivolous, malicious, or just ill-advised (see above for examples), and those that are correctly brought, and have no effect on their subjects. It's possible (perhaps more than just possible) that the existence of the former contributes to the failure of the latter, though the roots of the problem are deeper.

The problems is that, as with the rest of the Internet, and indeed the world, there are many people who simply don't care what others think of them. ther are many reasons for this: sometimes it's a personal arrogance, sometimes an arrogance born of their adherence to a cause (religiou, political, or whatever), sometimes it's probably some form of autism — but whatever the reason, it leaves us with a problem.

Now, I'm a philosopher; I'm good at distinguishing and explaining problems. I need rather more time and help to try to solve them. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

first step towards punitive measures

I placed the following warning on the RFC page: FuelWagon 06:35, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Note that an RFC is generally considered a prerequisite for entering mediation, and mediation is generally considered a prerequisite for entering Arbitration, and Arbitration can impose binding solutions including a ban from wikipedia, removal of administrator priveledges, etc. Therefore, when you file an RFC, some may view it not as a simple request for comments, but as the first step towards punitive measures against an editor.

• But that is not really correct. Mediation is supposed to be far more informal than RFC. Radiant_>|< 13:36, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

• • FuelWagon, I can't see anything about RfC as a prerequisite for mediation on the page you link to, in fact I can't see any mention of RFC. I have also never heard of such a thing, it sounds extremely unlikely: mediation is the first step in dispute resolution, as far as I know. If I'm missing something on the page you link to, could you please point to it? If you've made a mistake, could you please remove it from the RfC page as soon as possible? It's not the kind of misconception one would like to see spread to new users. Bishonen | talk 13:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • The process is fairly clearly outlined at "resolving disputes". RfC is not a precursor for mediation, though a potential mediator may well want to see an RfC so he knows what the dispute is about. I think Fuelwagon should also take on board that the aims of both RfC and mediation are to resolve disputes, without punishment. A lot of people get this wrong, particularly with respect to RfC. A RfC is just a chance for both parties to outline their problems and to get third party views. Although it can be as formal as you like, an RfC can be something as simple as a single sentence outline of the dispute on WP:RFC. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:10, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

well, just above, Snowspinner wrote

RfCs should be an occasion to get input on something - not an obligatory step on the way to arbcomming people.

So there seems to be anecdotal evidence that it is obligatory.

I'm not sure what the absolute, spot-on wording should be. I was trying to use "generally considered" to indicate it wasn't formally required, but that there is a strong linkage. I'll use Tony's wording that "a potential mediator may well want to see an RfC" so it is more clear that is is not a hard requirement. let me know if that is still incorrect. FuelWagon 18:22, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I've changed it to use Tony's wording. Hopefully this is more clear that an RFC is not a formal requirement to mediation, but still indicates the effects of their linkage. The diff is here. FuelWagon 18:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

We seem to be at cross-purposes. Yes, there is an informal or "soft" requirement for an RfC to be done before a request for arbitration. It's certainly dispensed with in egregious cases, but arbitrators, if you ask them, are likely to say "better do an RfC first." That doesn't have anything to do with Radiant's protest or with mine, above, where we object to your claim that RfC is required before mediation. There's no hard nor soft requirement for anything at all before mediation, it's much better to get mediation just as soon as you can. It takes long enough to find a mediator as it is, that's why it bothers me that you're making people see extra, non-existent obstacles on the path to it. I've removed your reference to mediation altogether on the project page, please see if you approve. Bishonen | talk 19:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I double checked where I got that information from. this says Where a dispute has not gone through Mediation, or the earlier steps in the dispute resolution process, the Arbitrators may refer the dispute to the Mediation Committee if it believes Mediation is likely to help. The first time, I misread it to say "if it hasn't gone through mediation, they'll first recommend mediation." Checking it again now, I see that I missed the "if it believes mediation is likely to help" on the end. FuelWagon 23:29, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason to reference mediation in the "warning." My understanding is that mediation is intended to be positive and RFCs are not intended as a preliminary.

I'm not wild about the "warning" anyway. Maurreen 23:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

FuelWagon, I wonder what your point is here. You appeared to intend the RfC against me to be punitive, as evidenced by these entries on your talk page. SlimVirgin 23:37, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

I'm through trying to convince anyone of my motives. I can't give you a CAT scan of my brain and say "See, look there, that proves what I was thinking." Everyone has already made up their mind anyway. For giggles, though, you can ask Ed and any of the other administrators to see if I ever said you should be blocked or de-admined or punished in any way. Even while I was serving time on my fourty-hour block, I never emailed him and said "SlimVirgin should be blocked too" or whatever. And if you're really bored, you can comb through the talk page archives and see that the only thing I ever actually said I expected from you was an acknowledgement to the effect of "Yeah, I, SlimVirgin, made a bad edit" and "Yeah, I accused you, FuelWagon, Duckecho, Neuroscientist, etc of some things you guys didn't actually do". There were some references to "Fonzi" in that regard, because Fonzi could never say "I'm Sorry". Whatever. Believe what you want. I don't care anymore. The only point of the warning is so that some poor sap of a greenhorn doesn't run into a problem and accidently file an RFC without knowing that some will view it as going to defcon 3, which is exactly how some people view it. FuelWagon 00:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Look, I'm sorry, but in the meantime, we really can't have your confused and confusing instruction on the RFC page. It's hard enough to do a proper RFC without a tripwire like that. OK, I believe you added it in good faith. But you're quoting irrelevant policies *for mediation*, and adding your own statement that the mediation procedure "includes an RFC" in amongst the quotes. No, it doesn't include an RFC. I'm sorry, I've tried twice to explain this politely, but you just don't seem to be listening. Your "instruction" is a mess (it doesn't help to quote if you quote irrelevant stuff). And it's factually *wrong* (because of the bit you added from yourself). I've removed it. Bishonen | talk 01:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

you're quoting irrelevant policies *for mediation*, and adding your own statement that the mediation procedure "includes an RFC". What I put in the article was this:

"a mediator will check that other alternatives of dispute resolution have been tried." , which includes an RFC.

"other alternatives to dispute resolution" includes an RFC, third opinion, and surveys. Or am I misreading that? I just listed RFC because it was the only one directly relevent to the RFC page.

I am not inventing a tripwire where none exists. There is a truth to what I'm trying to put in the article here. I'd appreciate it if you didn't delete the whole thing because I haven't expressed it exactly right. Yeah, the last version was "messy", but that was only because you said my paraphrase of the rules was wrong, so I tried quoting, which added a lot of text. I put a basic version in the article now, which doesn't get into all the rules, since I can't seem to explain them right. Does this version work? FuelWagon 11:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)