Talk:History of Islam in southern Italy

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gennarous (talk | contribs) at 15:36, 2 April 2008 (→Intro: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 15:36, 2 April 2008 by Gennarous (talk | contribs) (→Intro: reply)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Islam High‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Italy Mid‑importance

	Italy portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Italy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ItalyWikipedia:WikiProject ItalyTemplate:WikiProject ItalyItaly
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked	To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: \| b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> \| b2<!--Coverage and accuracy --> = <yes/no> \| b3<!--Structure --> = <yes/no> \| b4<!--Grammar and style --> = <yes/no> \| b5<!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.

Additional information:
/
	This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Middle Ages Mid‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Former countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Greece Low‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Balcanic Muslims in Sicily

Recently, many Muslims from war-stricken Bosnia and Kosovo have tried to illegally enter the Mediterranean country. This line, in the section "Muslims today", is poor and not relevant in my opinion. Balcan Muslims entered Italy mostly from Apulia and than directed northwards, not affecting Sicily that much. It is also to state which degree of Muslim religiosity can be appointed about Albanian and Kosovo Muslims.--Dans-eng 23:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Over stating

There was never a muslim conquest of simply "Southern Italy". Sicily? yes. Small parts of mainland Italy? yes... but Naples, which is considered the unofficial capital of Southern Italy has never had a muslin conquest (read; Duchy of Naples).. so to say "southern italy" in general is an over statement and untrue. - Soprani 23:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't agree with that. "Southern Italy" is used here as a generic reference to a couple of lands which couldn't be defined more properly... would you prefer an article such as "History of Islam in Sicily, Calabria, southern Lazio, neighbourhood of Bari"? --Attilios (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

And I oppose the merger recently suggested. Srnec (talk) 18:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Note on sourcing

The page, like most, could use improved referencing and it does have "citation needed" tags here and there, but unless there is very specific beef, it hardly needs a citations tag at top. Srnec (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinions needed

Hi, a new article, Arab-Norman civilization was created today by PHG (talk · contribs). What do the editors here think of this topic? Is it worth its own article, should it be renamed, or should it be merged elsewhere, such as here or to the Norman conquest of southern Italy article? Or somewhere else? Comments requested at Talk:Arab-Norman civilization, thanks. --El on ka 10:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Intro

Here is the diff that shows the dispute over the current wording of the intro. I will go over each point one at a time.

"Apulia and Calabria"

The problem is not so much "smallparts of" or "tips of", but "Apulia and Calabria", since there was a constant problem of semi-permanent camps and strongholds north of Calabria and west of Apulia, as in the famous one at Garigliano and lesser known ones like the one at Agropoli that supplied mercenaries to Docibilis I of Gaeta.

"a brief interlude"

This wording is just not needed, it sounds minimising and it is not our job to minimse the import of these events, just to report them. This is why I replaced it with the statement "Though the Muslim presence was ephemeral on the peninsula and limited mostly to semi-permanent camps or strongholds, their rule in Sicily lasted almost two centuries (902–1091)." This captures the facts about the mainland (ephemeral) and notes that Sicily was ruled compeltely from 902 (Taormina conquered) until the last vestige of Muslim rule disappeared (Noto). It lets the reader decide how important or not 200 years is. We could date the Muslim period from the first conquest to the first loss of territory, or from the final conquest to the final loss of territory (as I did), or from some other option, but I think I chose the fairest one: doesn't give either side credit until they finished the job. By the way, 965 is just the start of Kalbid rule.

"An area where the religion is particularly thin"

Not believable unless it can be cited that Islam is particularly thin in southern Italy as opposed to central or northern Italy or the islands. I captured the spirit with "The conquests of the Normans established Roman Catholicism firmly in the region, where Eastern Christianity had been prominent during the era of Islamic influence." Notice that the areas of Muslim dominance were largely Greek Christian and so the Normans brought Catholicism to prominence there.

Final sentence cited to Archaeology.Stanford.edu

Redundant considering my version. Also, "historics" is not English, Sicily isn't part of the Italian peninsula, and the dates 965-1072 seem arbitrary, since Muslims ruled all of Sicily from 902 until 1061, began their conquest in 827, and lost their last stronghold in 1091.

"Muslim control in terms of historics"

Meaningless in English. "Historics" is not good English and I don't know what it means for Muslim control to be short "in terms of" it.

For the above-cited reasons, I think my version is preferable. Srnec (talk) 04:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Srnec, you seem to be confusing pirates with legitamate forms of Muslim states. Brief pirate camps, where the lifeforms were not even established on a permanent basis, but an outcast force failing to take an area controlled by the Byzantines or Lombards, is not the same thing as something like an emirate, for example the Emirate of Sicily or the Emirate of Bari where the Muslims HAD conquored the area and installed briefly a government.

If ten people from Africa who are Muslims, get on a boat... come ashore on the coast of France and set up a camp for a couple of months before the government who controls the area finds them and kicks them out. That does not mean the south of France has had a period of "Saracen Muslim conquest" because of it. Yes I have accused you of "Islamophilia" before, because you're desperately trying to overreach the reality of history on the subject and that is the issue here.

2. "a brief interlude" is perfectly suitable and perfect wording. Compare the length of time the Romans, or the Bzyantines, or the Spanish controlled. Its a brief interlude in the history of Sicily as much as the Goths were and as much as the County of Sicily was before it became a full kingdom. Again, the only way you could have a problem with the sentence, if you were an Islamophile desperate to strike up a strong relationship between Muslims and Europe.

3. You must be joking. I don't suppose you've heard of "Christianity"? This is and has been historically one of the most strongly Christian places on earth. Perhaps you're confusing North with South. In the North of Italy there are a lot of athiests, but the South is and has been historically VERY strongly Christian and that forms an essential part of the culture. Have a look at the religious figures for the area to this day, its fair to say that Islam is historically and presently very thin, as are other religions. Even when compared with other Western European places.

4. Not redundant, because it shows the date in which the Muslims fully controlled the area. Again, Islamophilia and desire to "expand" the time frame on your part seems to be an issue here. The Muslims had not completed their conquest of Sicily in 902, that didn't happen until 965 when they were able to instate the emirate. Read the source.

5. Fine, if historics is not a good word to have, then I will change it to "in a historical context". Gennarous (talk) 15:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Dispute

Folks, the edit-warring and related edit summaries on this article are embarrassing. Referring to each other with words like "vandalism" and "crap" and "trolling"?? I thought better of both of you. Can you please stop with the reverting, and just talk about what it is exactly that you want to do with this article? --El on ka 12:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The "crap" I removed was not added by Gennarous. It was a longstanding misconception based on 1000-year-old propaganda. I don't think I have been uncivil at all, though I did counter "Islamophilic" with "Islamophobic". But I have presented adequate reasons to justify everything and he has not responded. Srnec (talk) 13:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Haddad (1999), pg. 608

Categories: