Talk:Boris Berezovsky (businessman)

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Boris Berezovsky (businessman) received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

I added info to the stub, but all of it is from memory of news articles I've read over the years. It needs fact and date checking. Names of the companies and other industries that Berezovsky invested in would be helpful.

I changed "the most notorious of Russian oligarchs" to "most famous". I don't think there'll be any complaints about that perfect example of bias being removed.

In the previous version of this page it was written "Berezovsky was born in Moscow into a Jewish family", now just "Berezovsky was born in Moscow". Why have you deleted "jewish family"? Do you think it's a shame or what?

Oligarchy?

What of this "oligarchy?" Who is in it besides Berezovsky and Alexander Litvinenko? When were they exiled? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 18:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the question, "(Please clarify - what is a rally standpoint shootoff?)" is a valid one, though it must be posted in the talk page instead of in the article itself.Iskabobbins 12:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Litvinenko was not an oligarch! The term "Oligarchs" in Russia is used in reference to the few people who gained control of the majority of the national wealth after privatization in the early 1990s following the collapse of the Soveit Union. Roman Abramovich and Boris Berezovsky are prime examples. Litvinenko is nothing even close to that. He wasn't even moderately wealthy - he lived on Berezovsky's handouts.

NPOV & sources

The tone of this article appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy, & I have added templates to that effect. There are whole sentences like "Berezovsky's image among Russians is generally poor; many consider him the most unlawful and unethical of the oligarchs and blame him especially for the country's economic collapse", which require references and neutral rephrasing. There are many further minor examples.

I have made a few small changes to the article to move it towards NPOV but lots more needs to be done. I don't want to edit out all the information here, because I believe some of it might be useful with a proper encyclopedic style edit and some decent citations behind it. -- TinaSparkle 23:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

From my own anecdotal evidence, that paragraph which you quoted is quite true. I'm not sure how it is POV to mention the general opinion among Russian citizens about him. I do agree that some acceptable source needs to be found for it, though. Esn 03:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Mainly, it's not POV if it's sourced or attributed. But I would probably have doubts about statements like "the most unlawful and unethical of the oligarchs" even if it is sourced. How is such a thing to be measured? Are there open, reliable opinion polls of the Russian people in which it is asked "Which oligarch do you consider to be the most unethical?" Surely it's a case of weasel words. Russia contains something like 150 million people and I doubt that any generalisation of their opinions would be useful or indeed possible. If there is reasonable evidence that Berezovsky is unethical, or specific allegations from a reliable source, let's have that rather than hearsay. -- TinaSparkle 13:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I edited out the unsourced POV material, if any sourcing can be found it should be restored -- J.L. 07:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

According to The Wall Street Journal, an opinion poll found that only 0.2 percent of Russians trust Boris. Unfortunately, WSJ archives are closed up unless you give them $ though. Aside from that, I haven't found any polls more recent than 2002 and in that poll it didn't show that many of those polled really disliked Boris. So, unless someone can get at that poll the WSJ is talking about, I think we are still without sources for now. If someone can find the time to dig further I think it would benefit the article greatly to get a better idea of what the general Russian populace really thinks of Boris. I'm getting conflicting results from my limited research so far. Cowicide 16:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You can still add the WSJ poll as a source if you know all the relevant information on how to find it. Misplaced Pages accepts payolla sources; the only condition is that they must exist somewhere. Lest we forget, there are still such things as libraries in the world. A source doesn't have to be accessible online. Also, if you can find a reliable article that talks about the poll, you don't necessarily have to link to the actual poll. Esn 05:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It is widely known that Berezovsky doesn't have a 'generally poor' image amongst the Russians, but it is an 'abysmal' image. Anyone looking for sources to back up such statements and for inclusive in wikipedia might want to start at http://www.fom.ru/ --Russavia 17:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There are still problems here; there is a whole unsourced section about a living man that essentially brands him as a crook and a liar. That may be true, but since the Litvinenko poisoning, and recent assasination attempt, I vote for removing unsourced material and placing an edit lock on this article. This could be a first for wikipedia, insofar as there is a distinct possibility of it being used as a basic propaganda tool in a heated diplomatic exchange amid a spate of international assasination attempts. Real cloak and dagger stuff -- but wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum. (anonymous norwegian, 13:21, 18 July 2007 CET)

Platon is Russian for Plato

Platon is Russian for Plato and it is also Greek for Plato. I think in the context here (a Russian changing his name) that it is more relevent to note that Platon is a Russian word.

Unsourced accusation of murder in BLP

Alex, could you please copy here a segment of text from cited article that accuses Berezovsky of organizing murder of Khlebnikov?

I found only the following:

"Soon after Vladimir Putin stepped into the presidency, Klebnikov and I met in New York. I told him he needed to watch his back with so much change afoot. He shrugged and said he was uniquely positioned to get to the heart of corruption in Russia. "Who else is going to do it?" he asked. I had no answer.

When Forbes announced Klebnikov would lead its new Russian publication and relocate to Moscow, I immediately feared for his safety. A few months later he was dead. I think about him, sprawled bleeding on the sidewalk, coughing his final words to a reporter colleague who found him dying.

Russia hasn't changed in the past decade and at this trajectory it won't be truly civilized for generations. Those who killed Klebnikov are killing today, plan to kill tomorrow, and know they'll roam free to kill for years to come. Hellbent on getting rich, they have no boundaries. Raised in a communist world devoid of morals, they have no soul."

There are no any accusations of Berezovsky here.Biophys 17:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

May be you mean the following segment in the Introductory part:

"Had I run across billionaire Boris Berezovsky in my work with the Yeltsin administration? I hadn't. Klebnikov had recently been scratching the surface of Berezovsky's brazen get-rich-quick schemes. He was convinced there was much more to the oligarch. He was in town to investigate him as well as to cover the elections.

Berezovsky was one of several super-wealthy men who had back doors to Yeltsin's Kremlin. His popularity waxed and waned, but as he amassed wealth he gained unparalleled power. Experienced expatriates in Russia shared an essential rule: Don't cross these brutal billionaires, ever, or you're likely to go home in a box."

Here, author only tells that Russian oligarchs are dangerous. His conclusion is summarized in the end of the article: "Those who killed Klebnikov are killing today, plan to kill tomorrow, and know they'll roam free to kill for years to come. Hellbent on getting rich, they have no boundaries. Raised in a communist world devoid of morals, they have no soul." Right. Please see the List of Russian billionaires and Political groups during Vladimir Putin's presidency.Biophys 17:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

comment

“

He is one of the principal financial resources for civic groups and anti-Putin opposition through his International Foundation for Civil Liberties.

”

This passage isn't quite true imho. I don't know of mainstream opposition (democratic or not) parties that are supported by him. Moreover Kasparov and Kasyanov explicitly denied receiving such support . Alæxis_¿question? 05:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Dagestan war

“

Berezovsky asserted that he refused the offer, but "Udugov and Basayev conspired with Stepashin and Putin to provoke a war to topple Maskhadov..., but the agreement was for the Russian army to stop at the Terek River. However, Putin double-crossed the Chechens and started an all-out war" . A transcript of the phone conversation between Berezovsky and Udugov was leaked to one of Moscow tabloids on September 10 1999.

”

What is this supposed to mean? If Basayev-Stepashin conspiracy is something that Berezovsky 'asserted' then it should be written more clearly. If Berezovsky only asserted he refused the offer then all the following is irrelevant to this article imho. Alæxis_¿question? 09:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This direct citation is taken from the book by Goldfarb. This is not a direct citation of Berezovsky words. That is what Berezovsky said to Goldfarb. He said two things: (1) that he refused the offer (it could be described in more detail why and what exactly was the offer), and (2) about the conspiracy. He also said a lot of other things of course.Biophys (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Sorry, I've missed the citation marks somehow... Alæxis_¿question? 16:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

"Converts from Judaism to Christianity"

What evidence is there that he was ever a practicing Jew? He was most likely a secular person as was dictated by the Soviet government. Unless you can prove Mr Berezovsky wore a kippah and went to shul prior to becoming Russian Orthodox, I'm removing him from this category. CommanderJamesBond (talk) 05:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This is OR and should be removed.Biophys (talk) 05:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

And while I'm at it, I'm removing him from the "Israeli Jews" category because by Israeli Law he is not a Jew (because his mother's mother is not a Jew and because he converted to Christianity, he would not have "Jew" printed on his identity card or be counted as a Jew in the census). CommanderJamesBond (talk) 01:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Netherlands money laundering investigation

Now this is a bit awkward. It is true that the Dutch financial police sent people to Russia to investigate what the Russians had on Berezovsky. However, as soon as the news was published in the Russian media, the Dutch government immediately claimed that Berezovsky was NOT being prosecuted or even a suspect in the Netherlands.

Again however, things are not as not as simple as that: the Dutch financial police are indeed investigating some major handling (="heling") or money laundering (="witwassen") scheme, and Berezovski is indeed mentioned in the dossier. (It took me a hell of a time to find that out, but here is a respectable source in Dutch: ). Basically, that coupled with the "démarche" to Russia (one may think that the Dutch would normally find Berezovsky too hot a potato to handle) means that the Dutch DA (="Openbaar Ministerie") is not expecting to prosecute Berezovsky and the belief by some Russian media (one of which we quote here) that Berezovsky may also be put on trial (trail is a rather funny msiprint...) in the Netherlands, is probably (=almost surely) wishful thinking.

The problem with our article as it stands now, is that if we just change that, everybody having read the whole article, may think the Dutch must be doing it to help out Brazil. But that is not necessarily the case: e.g. Berezovsky seems still being investigated by the Swiss Bundesanwaltschaft: and (German wikipedia's Berezovsky article is also claiming the Swiss investigation continues!) In view of this, I think it may be preferable to combine the Brazilian accusation and this Dutch "angle" with the Swiss accusation into one new major heading (replacing the Brazilian and Dutch headings) on "International money laundering charges". The Weltwoche article also mentions Swiss financier Hans-Peter Jenni and Nikolai Glushkov. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 15:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. As a last edit, I added "involving Berezovsky" to the sentence about the Moscow Prosecutor. Without it, it looked like the Russian and Dutch journalists had been working together to embarass the Dutch prosecuting officials (I wanted to put that in my edit summary, but somehow it ended up being uploaded in an imperfect way, a version I was still editing to save text to say more). But that is not what happened: the Russian journalists heard something factual from the Moscow DA about Berezovsky, and embellished it to imply that he was also being investigated in the Netherlands (here I interpret "on trail" as "under investigation", "being prosecuted" or searched, like game or escaped prisoners being "trailed", and not as a misprint for "on trial" - but if Russian editors have arguments otherwise, no problem). The Dutch DA soon intervened to deny everything the Russian media had claimed, but Dutch newspapers soon found out that he/she had been denying too much: the name is mentioned in the dossier and the investigating team had gone to Moscow to find out what the Berezovsky case in Russia was about. (to know how much money was involved? to understand how the Russians think the moneylaundering was done?)

The Dutch Prosecutors denied to comment in order not to hinder the investigation at hand. Are they after inhabitants of the Netherlands who performed financial transactions in that country on behalf of the Jenni firms? =OR, of course. Further OR: if Berezovsky has no account in the Netherlands, as he claims, the Dutch FIOD is not going to prosecute him, the Russian media at least got that wrong. I do not know what Brazilian law says about it, but the problem for prosecutors in an international case like this is obviously "non bis in idem". Even Russia has a law on it: Why should the Dutch go after someone already targeted by three other countries? ---Paul Pieniezny (talk) 16:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP and Berezovsky

It's not my work but I don't like this version as well. Could you please explain why WP:BLP doesn't allow us to say about his political affiliation with Litvinenko & Co. and about the charges against him (considering that everything that was/is written there is sourced well)? Alæxis_¿question? 20:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"Litvinenko & Co" is not a political affiliation like "Communist Party". We need a balanced introduction per WP:BLP. The selective representation of only negative information in introduction of BLP is not acceptable. We can not simply tell about charges, without explaining another side of the story (all of that is highly controversial). So, I left only facts that are not "charged". If you can produce a more balanced version of the introduction, please do.Biophys (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, imho this version is also not ideal. One gets the impression that he fled to UK because he had gone into opposition. It should also be written that he's accused of various crimes here in Russia (and elsewhere). This is just a fact - we don't say whether these accusations are well-founded or not.

On a second thought mentioning Litvinenko and others isn't absolutely necessary in the intro. What needs to be mentioned is his after-emigration political activity. We should think about how to formulate this. Alæxis_¿question? 20:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely ridiculous and not at all a valid argument. There is no other side of the story, it's factual information that he has arrest warrants out, and that he's under investigation. You can add "He denies all claims" if you like. (never mind I just did it for you)Krawndawg (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Simply telling "he denies this" is not good enough. So far I avoided editing the article, because this person is very controversial, to tell this politely.Biophys (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is it not good enough? Are there any other facts we're missing? Krawndawg (talk) 21:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Cite error: The named reference Dissident was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
"Death of a Dissident", page 189.

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