Misplaced Pages

Talk:2001 Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 117.199.2.60 (talk) at 14:22, 2 May 2008 (→Some concerns I've been having regarding the article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 14:22, 2 May 2008 by 117.199.2.60 (talk) (→Some concerns I've been having regarding the article)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Template:Overwikification

Good article2001 Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 17, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
October 11, 2007Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article
WikiProject iconChina GA‑class Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related
GAThis article has been rated as GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:Archive box collapsible

"Government propaganda"

I strongly and wholly object the change in terminology in this regard:

  1. Although it has not explicitly said so, I would say the Chinese govt believes that it is not "propaganda", but is merely stating its side of the case, as it has every right to.
  1. I think it would be equally in breach of WP:NPOV if someone came along and ejected every view or pronouncement from FG's or WOIPFG or CIPFG and put that under the heading "Falun Gong propaganda"
  2. Govt actions is broader than Govt media actions (or "propaganda" as it been used);

I also strongly object to the increasingly flippant edit summaries being used (i.e. it used to be "wikipedia doesn't do euphemisms", now it's "we don't call a duck a "flying feathered animal"), so the change is not acceptable. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...--Asdfg12345 05:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me organise these resources: Propaganda

http://www.cecc.gov/pages/virtualAcad/exp/expcensors.php -- scroll to 中共中央宣传部

http://books.google.com/books?id=zfZ4VV0WTeUC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=chinese+ministry+of+propaganda&source=web&ots=qynVkK_SQv&sig=RfA5OwNCXj6zZBuy8-38LRb_LnM

The Ministry of Propaganda is a government department of the CCP.--Asdfg12345 06:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Few more:

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66102/5826534.html -- "As China battles with Internet pornography, the country's top propaganda official Liu Yunshan has put forward the idea of "building a web culture with Chinese characteristics"."

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66485/66495/66496/4533662.html -- "Under the influence of his seniors, Zhao Shiyan, Zhou Enlai and others, Deng began to study Marxism and do political propaganda work."

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66095/4468893.html -- "He was the acting head of the Central Propaganda Department of the Kuomintang in Guangzhou and the chief editor of the Political Weekly."

Apparently it's nothing to be ashamed of, and they do use the description for themselves.--Asdfg12345 06:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

  • There is clearly a negative connotation of the word "propaganda" in the west, which the Chinese Govt may not yet have tuned in to. I'm not letting you off the hook so easily: You've attacked point 1, but 中共中央宣传部 - "宣传" can also mean publicity or advertising (which now you come to draw the analogy, is not totally inappropriate). What about points 2 and 3? Ohconfucius (talk) 06:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Falun Gong publicising its plight, torture and persecution, and explaining that it is a set of exercise movements and spiritual teachings, is 面目皆非 to the CCP's efforts to whip up hatred against practitioners, fabricating endless lies, up to the ridiculous extent of saying that practitioners practice cannibalism, bestiality, or go crazy and kill their family members. This much is obvious. Now please type "Falun Gong propaganda" into google, and compare the instances of reliable sources describing Falun Gong's response to the persecution as "propaganda" and those that describe the CCP's media campaign against Falun Gong as "propaganda." You'll quickly find there's not really a contest. This is the standard description of what the CCP has done. The media it publishes on Falun Gong is propaganda, and in nearly all instances of a scholarly journal, newspaper article, or other reliable source talking about the persecution, the CCP's use of media is referred to as "propaganda." There are also endless comparisons with the same propaganda as featured on the wikipage, i.e. of Cultural Revolution style propaganda, which is not a contentious description. You can find nothing like the same thing referring to Falun Gong's response, which is rarely characterised as propagandistic, despite what we may think.--Asdfg12345 07:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The only part of the "Government actions" which are not propaganda is the first sentence. --Asdfg12345 07:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, we're not here to speculate that the CCP hasn't quite understand how stupid it is to refer to itself as engaging in propaganda, nor to make allowances for that. My Chinese dictionary translates 中共中央宣传部 as "Propaganda Department of the CCP Central Committee"; besides, I'm sure this is what they mean.--Asdfg12345 07:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought you would be amused by those edit summaries.--Asdfg12345 07:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It would help if the government themselves release an English name for the propaganda/publicity department. I encountered the same issue here. This really is an old discussion from like pre-1980s. Benjwong (talk) 14:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
OK User:Asdfg12345, why are you biting on a mist-translation (or better, outdated translation)? Quoting the etymology section of ,
"From Modern Latin propaganda, short for Congregatio de Propaganda Fide "congregation for propagating the faith", a committee of cardinals established 1622 by Gregory XV to supervise foreign missions, prop. ablative female gerundive of Latin propagare (see propagation). Modern political sense dates from World War I, not originally pejorative."
The original sense of word corresponds better to "宣传" than the current meaning. Would flyers, 宣传单张, really mean "propaganda leaflets"? Even in a commercial setting? On the root of all this the translation between propaganda and 宣传 is plain wrong, so can you please stop using it as an argument because it is simply invalid. Also, because of conflict of interest, any publication on one party will be biased towards them, just like falungong publications are biased towards them is well. If you call what CCP publishes "propaganda", why not label the falungong publications propaganda is well? It will simply be violating WP:NPOV if we label one side of the argument as false (which is pretty much what labeling it propaganda does). --antilived 03:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I wrote about a 500 word response which addressed the important issues you raised, and added in some more thoughts. Unfortunately I lost it all. I'm not prepared to write it again straight away, so just give me a day or so and I'll get back to you on this. Here's a link Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Media_.26_education_campaign if you want to read about the use of media in the persecution of Falun Gong. You can decide whether you think that is propaganda or not.--Asdfg12345 05:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I'm sufficiently recovered from that episode. I'll try to condense what I wrote.

First about 宣传. We're not discussing how 宣传 translates, really, in other contexts. Of course characters have different meanings in different contexts. The point is that in this context 中共中央宣传部 often gets "Propaganda Department of the CCP Central Committee." There is also the fact that the CCP themselves refer to it as propaganda. They call it the Ministry of Propaganda. They say they are going to engage in propaganda efforts, etc., and on their website they say that Deng and Mao did their time as propaganda chiefs or whatever you like--posted some links above. I'm not criticising the CCP here; they don't have a problem calling it that, and nor should any self-respecting communist.

The other thing is that in every instance of discussion of the persecution in reliable sources, I would say every instance or nearly every instance, their media efforts to defame, vilify, and incite hatred toward Falun Gong are called "propaganda." And this term isn't necessarily meant to be derogatory. It's actually a legitimately descriptive term. It is also very often said in reliable sources that the propaganda campaign against Falun Gong mirrors the many other propaganda campaigns across the CCP's history of rule, notably the Great Cultural Revolution. This comparison is very frequently made, for obvious reasons.

When you type "Falun Gong propaganda" into google, nearly every hit you find will be about the CCP's propaganda against Falun Gong. With this self-immolation incident in particular, it is the most blatant propaganda effort in the whole persecution, and you will also find this in numerous reliable sources. In an overwhemling majority of reliable sources that comment on this incident. It's just very clear. It wouldn't even matter if they were Falun Gong practitioners who burnt themselves, the way it was handled was still propaganda, and it is described as such everywhere you read about it. That's another thing. You wonder why Falun Gong shouldn't be called propagandists also? As I say, it's 面目皆非, but consider this, if you will: the core difference is that Falun Gong is propagating information it believes to be true, while the CCP is engaging in widespread, horrific violence, and propagating information that it knows to be false. This difference is quite large. Apart from that, on a rather practical level, you will find next to zero reliable sources saying that Falun Gong is engaging in propaganda. I think you will find one or two, and in those instances their opinion should be cited. But they are not referring to this incident, I believe I have seen them referring to Falun Gong's general anti-persecution campaign. But the point is that in this instance, Falun Gong's counter to this self-immolation is not being described as propaganda. But the CCP's actions in this self-immolation are overwhelmingly being described as propaganda. Even if it weren't for everything else in the argument, this simple fact would be enough. --Asdfg12345 03:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

According to Google search, there is 1 result to the Misplaced Pages article "The Epoch Times", 3 mentions of "Falun Gong Propaganda" (ie. propaganda BY Falun Gong), and 4 mentions of "Anti-Falun Gong Propaganda" on the first page. Of those I think the most neutral is the first link, by Stefan Landsberger, which is well-backed up by examples and not overly biased to either side. There is also a systematic bias on this issue: searching in English will only turn up English results, and a lot of the links turning up on the Google search are related to Falun Gong itself trying to 宣传 (I think advertise would be the suitable translation here) their point of view, whereas a search in Chinese would probably be overwhelmed with the CCP point of view. From an outsider point of view, the advertisement of Falun Gong is not much better than the alleged "propaganda" of the CCP: they have a whole newspaper and TV channel dedicated to CCP bashing, various websites operating under the cloak of "religious freedom". If the issue is really about religious freedom the biggest complaint would be from the millions of Christians in China, not a newly-developed religion/cult. But, I am getting off-topic so I will stop here. I will just re-iterate my concern: labeling one side of the argument as false is in clear-violation of NPOV. --antilived 04:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your point. The Landsberger is about the CCP's use of propaganda against Falun Gong, not about Falun Gong's counter. This isn't really related to how the CCP's actions on this particular issue should be characterised though, which is the point. It certainly isn't about labeling any view as false, but about reflecting the majority view in explaining the CCP's use of media to vilify Falun Gong. I'll wait until someone responds to that. Aside from this specific case, I might take the opportunity to respond to your wider concerns.

I think one thing you are forgetting in all this is that Falun Gong practitioners are innocent people who are being tortured and beaten to death for their beliefs. This is the bottom line of what is happening in China. You should recognise that first of all. Why shouldn't they then go and set up a newspaper and websites publicising that? Is that wrong? What's happening in China to Falun Gong is totally outrageous. You should be disgusted at the CCP's vicious killing of innocent people to entrench their rule (the majority death toll in the persecution are women past middle aged, did you know that?), rather than the peaceful response (setting up media to publicise it, sitting outside embassies to protest, handing out leaflets etc.). Don't you think it's wrong that this is happening? Aren't you upset by it? Suggesting Falun Gong is a cult is also playing into the hands of the tyrant. Falun Gong is a set of free exercises and books. It's 100% voluntary. No money is sought or collected. Practitioners do not distance themselves from society. They are wholly innocent. Calling Falun Gong a cult was merely a technique of legitimating the persecution. All this information is freely available, and much of it is actually right here on wikipedia. Please read widely and aim for a wider grasp of the situation, and please don't be afraid to engage your heart. It's a really simple question of right and wrong, really simple.--Asdfg12345 04:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is that I did exactly what you say, googling "Falun gong propaganda", and the result is far from a landslide victory on the Falun Gong (henceforth abbreviated as FLG) side like you have assumed. Both sides have been accused of propaganda and thus if you want to label one side as propaganda, you must also do the same for the other side for the sake of neutrality.
Also, after reading your second paragraph, I must remind you of WP:COI, as you seemed to be quite set on the righteousness of FLG. --antilived 05:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the now-off-topic debate...

As for the wider debate, as much as I want to stop, I do not consider either side to be reliable sources. I would like a citation for your "women past middle age" statistic, from a reliable source (ie. not websites operated by FLG). Also, does it not that handing out leaflets, running your own media to broadcast your ideologies constitutes as "propaganda" (propaganda (uncountable) - Speech or writing advancing one's cause or ideas, or denouncing one's opponents.) in the strictest sense of the word? If the internals of FLG is as transparent as you claim then why is there almost no neutral sources on describing what exactly FLG does other than protesting and trying to bring down CCP? Look at Teachings of Falun Gong, almost every single reference came from the central dogma of FLG, and none from outsider descriptions and eye-witnesses and other neutral sources. Look at Template:Falun Gong, it is dominated by persecutions of it and contains very little on what exactly is it. Compare it to other religion templates and you will see what I mean. Yes I agree the CCP had killed a lot of people to ensure its power, but it doesn't mean someone can operate under the cloak of avenging the innocent people to attack the CCP, it's just as bad as being lied to by the CCP itself. --antilived 05:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I've seen only one source describing Falun Gong's efforts in the self-immolation propaganda. That's the NYT thing, it goes something like "With propaganda streaming in from both ends of the universe, the claims seemed hard to assess..." I haven't seen anything else saying Falun Gong is using propaganda in this case. We're just talking about this case, and talking about whether the subsection should be renamed. The fact remains that every source calls the CCP's efforts to vilify Falun Gong here propaganda. As I say, for the third time now, when reliable sources also say Falun Gong is engaging in propaganda, in those instances that should be cited in the relevant place.

The off topic stuff, I wanted you to realise that you should just be clear about who the aggressor is here. People are being tortured and murdered to death for their beliefs, this is well documented and widely accepted. The response has been peaceful. It's as simple as that, really. It is up to you whether you accept that or not. I won't say more on it.--Asdfg12345 08:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

OK I will break it down for you if you are still living in your assumption. Let's disregard links to either camp, so I'll skip over the Chinese Consulate link, Clearwisdom, Clear Harmony, Falun info, and any other website associated with FLG; Misplaced Pages articles, Google Books links (I can't be bothered reading the context of the comments) and any blogs as they are NOT (well most of the time) reliable sources. Here are the results from the first 5 pages:
And that concludes the 5-page analysis. Let's tally them up: accuse CCP of propaganda against FLG:4; accuse FLG of propaganda against CCP: 4.5; To be honest I was quite shocked at how little neutral sources are out there. Out of 50 links only 9 are usable links, and I can say a good 20 or more of the discarded associate with FLG, while Google Books results follows on a far second, and only 1 link from official Chinese sources. Now can we say we have definite evidence that accusation of propaganda is not one-sided? --antilived 09:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, that is interesting. It's a shame we are so inundated with low-quality information, isn't it? These are the times we are living in I suppose. There's still gold out there, it's just a matter of digging around. Anyway, I appreciate this research, but we are talking about this self-immolation incident and whether the CCP's use of media should be described as propaganda. You can go to the article and check out all the links referenced there. Probably 90% of them talk about the CCP's propaganda. I don't know any other source apart from NYT that calls Falun Gong's efforts propaganda, and that is a passing comment. We are not talking generally about Falun Gong's counter to the persecution and the CCP's use of media in the persecution, we're just talking about this specific case, so I guess those links aren't relevant. Do you know what I mean? (By the way, I often find google is a poor resource for looking for the kind of research that should be used for wikipedia. Academic journals and respected newspapers are the go, I've found.)--Asdfg12345 10:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Just came across this, I think you would find it interesting and a good read. Take a look and let me know what you think:

HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA AND THE 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES

HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA AND THE 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES

Keynote Address by Hon. David Kilgour, J.D.

International Forum, Grand Hyatt Hotel Taipei, Taiwan

February 21, 2008

We are here to weigh the condition of human dignity across China and some other countries whose governments are subject to direction by the Beijing party-state. Our goal is to develop common approaches in attempting to improve human rights and the rule of law within China before the 2008 Olympics and Para-Olympics this coming summer. Hosting an Olympiad and simultaneously increasing oppression are incompatible with the modern Olympic Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and a host of other international instruments.

The government of China hopes that spending vast amounts of money on Games facilities--and forcibly removing thousands from their homes with inadequate compensation--will improve its reputation despite its well-documented systematic violations of human dignity. The opposite seems more likely since the Games are now being used by the regime as a pretext for a crackdown on human rights advocates and other patriotic citizens of China. One Internet survey I saw a few months ago in Canada indicated that more than nine in ten of respondents favoured changing our trade laws with China presumably because of their human rights abuses; surveys in a number of other countries evidently also show mounting concern about the Hu-Wen government.

In Taiwan, for example, I wonder how many of your 23 million nationals think Beijing showed any concern for you during the SARs epidemic of 2003. This brings me to an eye-witness account of the World Health Assembly two years ago, which considered whether Taiwan should have observer status at the World Health Organization. The delegates from two African governments spoke in favour of admitting Taiwan; ones from China and another country spoke against. The applause from the delegates present as a whole indicated very clearly, I'm told by a someone who was present, that most countries represented wanted the motion to admit Taiwan passed. The presiding chair, however, refused to allow a vote, asserting that there was little support for the motion, presumably on the basis of her own private applause meter. A very shabby business, which must be changed soon partly because viruses know no borders. Health is an integral feature of human rights.

In 2006, the most recent year for which figures are available, there were more than twice as many arrests in China as the previous year for the offence of 'endangering state security', which is used by totalitarian governments everywhere to silence journalists, civil-rights lawyers and advocates of religious freedom. The number jumped to 604 arrests in 2006 from 296 in 2005. Among those arrested were the crusading defence lawyer Gao Zhisheng, who was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize last year and who has been repeatedly detained and beaten; the human-rights, AIDS and environmental advocate Hu Jia; the blind self-taught lawyer Chen Guangcheng, now serving a four-year prison term; and the civil-rights lawyer Guo Feixiong, now serving a five-year term.


Stubborn Facts


Until about eighteen months ago, when David Matas and I began our independent study of organ pillaging from Falun Gong prisoners of conscience, my naiveté about China's party-state was regrettably both wide and deep. Several visits to the country, including ones as Canada's Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific), did not reduce it significantly for various reasons. Only when I began to read books and other material written by knowledgeable sinologists of independent mind did my eyes begin to open.

The world should draw conclusions about China from facts alone. For example, Carsten A.Holz, an academic economist who specializes in China, published an article on self-censorship about a month ago. He noted for example, that China experts often take at face value the country's business laws without mentioning the dominant role of the Communist party. He adds: "At the national level, the leadership of the 50 largest state-owned enterprises-enterprises that invest around the world-is directly appointed by the Politburo." Many studies have asked about the reason for the growing income inequality in China. Holz notes that among the 3,220 persons with a personal worth of $13 million or more in the country 2912 are children of high-level cadres.

China experts, Holz goes on, often speak of the Chinese "government" without further qualification, even when more than 95% of the "leadership cadres" are Party members. "Who questions the legitimacy of the Party leadership to rule China and to rule it the ways it does?" he asks. His conclusion is that many academics, researchers from private firms and even those from the World Bank and other international organizations normally will not speak candidly about China because their careers "depend on amicable co-operation with the Party." Separating wheat from self-serving chaff in reports about China thus remains challenging, especially as the Beijing Olympiad nears.

The Party seeks to equate itself with China as a country, to convince naive persons within and outside the country that it is China, and that without the Party there would be no China. This is despite the inconvenient reality that its ideological foundation is now widely discredited European Marxism. One farmer in China put it best, "Karl Marx does not sound like a Chinese name." This is a underpinning of the Party strategy to maintain power despite so much ongoing abuse of fellow citizens. It is necessary always to stress that our criticisms are directed at the unelected government in Beijing and never at the exploited and hard-working people of the country.

On a more hopeful note, Reuters News reported only a few days that the CCP's senior think tank, the Central Party School, has warned that it must limit its current absolute power through democratic reforms. The 366-page report, "Storming the Fortress" notes: "Citizens' steadily rising democratic consciousness and the grave corruption among Party and government officials make it increasingly urgent to press ahead with demands for political system reform." It also calls for restricting the Party's powers and expanding the rights of citizens, reporters and religious believers. Let's all hope that someone is listening.


Organ Pillaging - "Bloody Harvest Games"


David Matas, and I concluded to our horror following our independent investigation last year that since the end of 2000 the party-state of China and its agencies have killed thousands of Falun Gong practitioners, mostly without any form of prior trial, and then sold their vital organs for large sums of money, often to 'organ tourists' from wealthy countries (Our report is available in nineteen languages, including Mandarin, at www.organharvestinvestigation.net).

Neither of us are Falun Gong practitioners, but my experience with Falun Gong in the numerous national capitals Matas and I have now visited, seeking to bring these crimes against humanity to a halt by helping to raise public awareness, has been overwhelmingly positive. Falun Gong practitioners really do attempt to live their core principles of "truth, compassion and tolerance", which are shared by virtually all of the world's spiritual communities.

Matas and I have spoken in several countries to a small number of Falun Gong practitioners sent to labour camps since 1999, who managed later to leave both the camps and China itself. They told us of working in appalling conditions for up to sixteen hours daily with no pay and little food and many persons sleeping in the same room, making export products, ranging from garments to chopsticks to Christmas decorations for multinational companies. This clearly constitutes egregious corporate irresponsibility. The labour camps, operating across China since the 1950s, are remarkably similar to one's in Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. They operate outside the legal system and allow the Party to send anyone to them for up to four years with no hearing and no appeal by simply getting their police to sign an order.


Rwandan Echoes


The propaganda phase of the persecution, begun in mid-1999 against a then estimated 70-100 million Falun Gong practitioners across China, demonized, vilified and dehumanized them in Party-controlled media. Many Chinese were thus persuaded to think of the community tragically as even somehow less than human. The phenomenon recalls a similar media campaign unleashed by another party-state in Rwanda against its minority Tutsi community prior to the genocide there between April and June, 1994.

There has been no independently reported instance of a Falun Gong practitioner using force to respond to police attacks since July, 1999. The former UN Rapporteur on Torture, Manfred Novak, concluded following his own visit to China more than a year ago that two thirds of the persons being tortured across the country were Falun Gong practitioners.

Why is it that in only one of the eighty or so countries where Falun Gong practitioners now live are they persecuted mercilessly? Their growing popularity among the Chinese people generally during the 1990s was clearly one major reason, but another no doubt was that the values of those in power in Beijing were and are at the opposite end of the ethical spectrum.

The Chinese Medical Association has now agreed with the World Medical Association quite recently that 'organ tourists' will obtain no more transplants in China. Whether this is anything more than public relations cant intended to benefit the Beijing Olympiad remains to be seen. Another concern is that organs seized from unwilling "donors" across China, including Falun Gong practitioners, will now go to wealthy Chinese patients instead, with the grotesque commerce thus continuing in the same volume.

None of these deaths would be occurring if the Chinese people as a whole enjoyed the rule of law and their government believed in the intrinsic worth and dignity of each one of them. Human lives generally across China appear to have no more value to the party-state there than does the natural environment, work safety, health care and social programs for all Chinese, or Buddhist monks in Tibet and Burma. In my judgement, it is the toxic combination of totalitarian governance and 'Anything is permitted' capitalism that allows this new form of evil in the world to persist.


"Genocide Olympics"


A number of the world's most brutal dictatorships, including North Korea, Burma and Zimbabwe, have fallen under Beijing's sway during its scramble to acquire as much as possible of the earth's natural resources. I'll discuss here only Sudan-Darfur as a representative case study, but I'd ask you to consider how any regime which is doing such terrible things in Burma, Tibet, East Turkestan, Zimbabwe and elsewhere in the world could be allowed to host an Olympiad?

Consider a largely forgotten incident in the Nuba mountains in central Sudan. On February 26, 2002, the town of Nahibloiu was wiped out to make way for a Chinese oil well that now operates in nearby Leal.

In Sudan's Darfur province, since April, 2003 an estimated 400,000- 450,000 additional African civilians have been murdered by bombs, bullets or swords of the Bashir military regime in Khartoum, or died of related causes, such as starvation and disease. The killing, raping and burning pattern in Darfur is essentially the same one used by Khartoum earlier in the Nuba mountains and across South Sudan.

The respected New York Times columnist, Nicholas Kristof, wrote last month in a piece headed " China's Genocide Olympics": "Just a few days ago, Sudan appointed Musa Hilal, a founding leader of the Arab militia known as the janjaweed, to a position in the central government. This is the man who was once quoted as having expressed gratitude for "the necessary weapons and ammunition to exterminate the African tribes in Darfur."

The ongoing role of China party-state across Darfur is clearly not the conduct of a responsible member of the international community.


Growing Shadows over Olympic Games


The peoples of the world look forward to every Olympiad because they feature the best athletic talent from our entire family of nations. Unfortunately, the Summer Games this year face increasing opposition because the host national government remains one of the world's most gross and systematic violators of human dignity.

China was awarded the Games by the IOC only after it pledged to respect the Olympic Charter and to improve its human rights record. Many independent organizations have since observed that an already appalling record is instead worsening as the Beijing Games approach.

Why, for example, do Falun Gong practitioners face continuing merciless persecution after eight long years? What principle of the modern Olympic Games, especially after the experience in Hitler's Berlin at the 1936 Olympics, allows a host government to bar Falun Gong or any spiritual community's members from competing in, or even watching, events in Beijing? What about Tibetans, Buddhists, Uighurs, human rights advocates, independent journalists, other spiritual communities and democracy activists?

The government of China's outrageous treatment of human beings deemed 'enemies of the Party' both at home and abroad in the run up to the Games has led to an understandable call for a boycott. Both the Olympic Games and human rights movements worldwide share a common goal: the unity, dignity and equality among the entire human family. When this precept is violated systematically by the host government of a particular Olympiad, as is the case this year, the modern Olympic movement as a whole comes into question. 


The Olympic Charter assigns to the IOC the oversight role for compliance with the regulations under the Olympic Charter. The IOC should demand from the organizers of the 2008 Olympic Games that they conform to the Charter and refrain from discrimination against any group or individual during their Games.

Mia Farrow, Stephen Spielberg, Prince Charles and many others have already taken stands on human rights and the 2008 Olympics. All of the rest of us should too.

Thank you.

Except what I did is exactly what you said, namely "When you type "Falun Gong propaganda" into google", which the hypothesis of "nearly every hit you find will be about the CCP's propaganda against Falun Gong." is blatantly wrong as I have pointed out in my analysis. That was your main argument earlier on so in effect you have disproved your own argument, so bravo on that. Even if you type "Falun Gong self-immolation porpaganda", the whole first page is still useless for any neutral research as it is simply DOMINATED by FLG-operated sites. With such a low Signal-to-noise ratio I am simply unwilling to do any more research for you as it is just a waste of time sieving through the useless links, and that no matter what I do you'll just change your argument while pretending your previous one never happened. I will stop here now, but I will definitely revert any further changes to "Government Propaganda". --antilived 05:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the above. There is no use getting into intellectual contortions about this: you may continue to quote that " says such and such an act is Government propaganda", which is fine within reason, a priori. For every example you find, somebody will you examples saying that " says such and such an act is Falun Gong propaganda". I will not get stuck in arguments about what a particular Gsearch string throws up, as counting Ghits is not research. Insistence on using "Government propaganda" as a heading will definitely be vehemently opposed. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Below is a response to Antilived. I clicked save but server froze up or something. It is still relevant; the outstanding issue hasn't been addressed.:

I apologise if I have not been clear in explaining my point of view. I should not have used google search as an example of searching through reliable sources, and I apologise for giving the impression that I based my argument on that. I mistakenly equated, in my earlier phrasing, a google search with a search of reliable sources. Please take a look at the external links on the main page, then, because there are many reliable sources there.

The main point I meant was that in reliable sources the CCP's media actions against Falun Gong are described as propaganda, and that with this incident in particular, all or nearly all reliable sources describe it as propaganda. This should be reflected on the page, and on this point you haven't responded to me. If you like, I can go to the main page and copy/paste them here. I think it's quite overwhelming though, and you'll work it out as soon as you go to the references section and look through the links. There are references there to Amnesty, Boston Globe, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and they all describe it as propaganda. This is the main point I had to make, the google search being one way I thought would demonstrate this. You have shown that the google search does not show this clearly, as so much of what is turned up are not reliable sources. I understand what you are saying there.

I could have made more clear that I was referring to how the CCP's use of media in this particular incident was characterised in reliable sources. I acknowledge that in instances where Falun Gong's counter to the persecution is described as propaganda in reliable sources, that on those ocassions it's proper to be cited. But as I also said, I don't believe that this self-immolation is one such case.

But the CCP's media efforts to vilify Falun Gong here are repeatedly referred to as propaganda across a range of reliable sources. It's just a repeat of prior, classic propaganda campaigns in the history of the CCP. That isn't a controversial statement. It's the plain reality, if you stop and think about it for a moment. It isn't a biased statement. They are vilifying Falun Gong practitioners with every means available, concocting outrageous lies to incite hatred and drive forward the campaign of violence and repression. I say these things to you in the hope that you will understand this yourself. I am disappointed by your last remark. I never meant to annoy you, mislead you, or put up fallacious arguments, so I can only apologise if you got that impression. I firstly would wish you to look at the facts yourself, and come to your own conclusion about who is right and who is wrong in this persecution. This is personally what I most worry over, not the page. If you do not wish to engage in the reality of the situation that is your prerogative.

Besides, it's somewhat irrelevant to this case anyway, because as we know, wikipedia does not deal with the truth, but with what reliable sources say. The main point is that "propaganda" is the standard view being taken by the reliable sources who comment on this matter, and wikipedia ought to reflect that. I have said this now many times, and the examples are on the main page. This fact remains. If you are not satisfied with these few words of mine and an exhortation to check out the references section yourself, I can post them here one by one and number the instances where the CCP's campaign is described as propaganda in this case, or generally, if you wished.--Asdfg12345 06:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Last comment. Misplaced Pages isn't a process of making pronouncements, and articles aren't built by "You're just going to keep changing your argument anyway, so I will just revert X" or providing no real argument and simply saying "X will be vehemently opposed." It's about discussion, debate, and compromise, informed by policy. I welcome either of you to address the outstanding issue explained above; a good editing atmosphere isn't created with those kind of pronouncements. --Asdfg12345 06:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not that we are not making arguments - because we have - but that you are not buying, so there is a difference. Let's say we agree to disagree and leave it at that - meaning no consensus for changing the heading. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No, it's that you have not responded to the points in my notes. It's really simple. You have not responded to the fact that all reliable sources say it's propaganda. I've let this issue simmer for a while now, I'm still quite busy at the moment but please address that and don't try to shut the discussion down without addressing what I am saying. Thanks.--Asdfg12345 13:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Added {{fact}} without the categories (as to not mess up the category of articles that needs citations: talk pages aren't articles) in your latest comment, to signify where sources should be cited to back up your arguments. Also, please take into account of WP:WEASEL as I can see quite a number of such in your comments.
In fact I have looked at the references in the article and I was even more appalled because nearly half of them are affiliated with FLG, so I doubt are WP:RS, specifically, in violation of WP:SPS and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Questionable_sources. I think I will remove them once I have time. But otherwise, definitely not ALL of the other reliable sources in the references call it propaganda (eg., the claims are made by a FLG practitioner, not CNN), and some are labeling the action of the government after the incident as propaganda, not its side of story of the incident (eg. ). Quoting from your comment, "..I was referring to how the CCP's use of media in this particular incident was characterised in reliable sources", the Time article is merely labeling the persecution of FLG after the incident as propaganda, not the official side of the story. --antilived 23:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Where Falun Gong sources are used in this article, as they have every right to be, along with the CCP's where also appropriate, it is explained. It says "WOIPFG, a Falun Gong front organisation, says..." or whatever. There isn't a problem with having Falun Gong sources in this article, but it's important that they are designated as such, and that they don't overrun the article. The majority of the commentary in this article comes from non-Falun Gong, non-CCP sources, and that's how it should be. I'm confused by your second part. That's my whole point--how the CCP used media to whip up hatred toward Falun Gong is called propaganda. Look at what it says in the Time article: "The immolations on Jan. 23 became a propaganda bonanza for the government and marked a turning point in its anti-Falun Gong campaign." If you have found one source out of 10 which doesn't say the CCP is doing propaganda in this case, this just proves my point.--Asdfg12345 04:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I just did a quick count, could be wrong, but it looks like there are 8 different Falun Gong citations. some of these are from the same source though, but the referencing is not done properly. WOIPFG is cited twice when it could be cited once, as the "Second Investigation" and First one could be condensed into one citation, they probably say similar things.--Asdfg12345 04:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly what turns me off: you are never wrong. First your Google search assumption, then you said ALL sources label CCP's action as propaganda, and when I point out that one source doesn't (the second source on the article, really. I stopped after that as you are wrong already), you just ignores the whole thing and still say I'm wrong. As you have said it, after the immolation is not "in this particular incident", and the propaganda is simply against FLG as a whole (I have been living through all that rubbish). Time is not labeling the CCP side of the story as propaganda, rather, it's the propaganda campaign against FLG after the immolation that they're referring to. --antilived 09:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I know, that's what I'm saying man! Nearly all the sources say that the CCP carried out intensive propaganda against Falun Gong after the immolations (and also generally), this is what I've been saying a thousand times. That's what that subsection is about, and I see no reason why it should not be correctly labelled. If we're on the same page here I don't see what the issue is?--Asdfg12345 13:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly proving my point, you have been ignorant to all my and Ohconfucius' arguments, and merely continues on your own over and over and over. There is no way a consensus can be built from this and so the result of this discussion is no consensus, which means a status quo should be maintained. You were the one that was saying labeling FLG-media as propaganda against CCP is irrelevant as it is not concerning this incident, well I can say the same for the CCP propaganda mentioned in the Time article, non? --antilived 21:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me put it this way: CCP considers that it has a propaganda department and also journalist consider it as being a society that rellys heavily on propaganda because it's Stalinist/Maoist/authoritarian foundation. Falun Gong does consider it's action as being SOS. Am I missing something? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 22:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
OK if you have been following this discussion you would have read that this issue had been addressed before, that it is a mistranslation and it is absurd to translate 宣传单张 as "propaganda leaflets". Also, now that you're talking about CCP media in general, what about people that label FLG media as propaganda? I have found quite a number of them earlier in this "discussion", if "journalists" label CCP media as propaganda, and thus everything they say are false, why not the same to be said for FLG, as there are "journalists" who label FLG media as propaganda? No, don't start saying it's irrelevant, because it just refutes your argument, as my argument is merely an extension of yours. --antilived 03:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually I was following the whole discussion, and frankly is was getting tiring ... You can't be serios about mistranslation, since I gave you a direct source from the CCP media itself. It considers that is has a propaganda department and it also have a chief "Propaganda Department (Chief: Liu Yunshan)".
  • Translating 宣传单张 as "propaganda leaflets", means that you are mocking the chinese language. You should know that Chinese characters don't have only individual meaning.
  • Falun Gong vs. CCP propaganda well in this case we can always rely on the reliable sources and on WP:DUE. Do you have any numbers? That would help.
  • Also if I may, you where way to quick in reverting, because if I would quote only you, there is no consensus, yet you enforce your version of reality. Which in Misplaced Pages is not correct. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 06:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  1. Except its Chinese name got nothing to do with Propaganda. Which one should we go after, the obviously erroneous official translation, or the more appropriate, faithful translation?
  2. No I am translating it on a word (词) basis, 宣传 -> Propaganda, 单张 -> leaflet, ergo Propaganda Leaflet! You could split it into 宣|传单|张 but that just wouldn't make any sense would it? I would like to be enlightened on my error here, and to what you mean by "not individual meaning".
  3. Look above you, that Google search analysis which Asdfg commissioned me to do. Usually Google searches aren't reliable sources, but a tally of news articles concerning this matter should at least give an indication on the matters on hand.
  4. Because that was the original version, and since there was no consensus on the change a status quo should be maintained. It is YOU that should explain why you did that edit in the first place? Where is the consensus? Where did you get the notion that everyone has agreed on this matter? I am merely undoing the damage that you have done. Please, next time, don't go accusing the other party when you yourself are in the wrong. --antilived 07:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Antilived, simply because you ignore what I am saying does not make it go away. Among other things, the main point I have been repeating and repeating, which you have not refuted, is that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources characterise the CCP's use of media in this incident as propaganda. This is just the plain truth of it. Along the way I have made other points. Let's not pick nits. I fear you are failing to look at the objective situation and instead taking this as a personal issue. I'm not in any rush. Since the overwhelming majority of reliable sources characterise it as propaganda (as well as the CCP itself), the page should reflect this. As far as I can tell, this is how things stand, unless there is something I'm not aware of or new information/argumentation is brought forth--I'm totally open to changing my mind, it's just that based on this, the conclusion is obvious.--Asdfg12345 01:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I might also make this point, to Antilived and Ohconfucius: failing to address the logic of the situation and then saying "no consensus has been reached" is a cop out. If there really is a good reason not to have the word propaganda there, then come up with it, but don't try to derail the debate that way. This isn't about oneupmanship.--Asdfg12345 01:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That is the whole point of me adding "citation needed" in your arguments, since I have again and again proved your hyperboles and assumptions wrong I no longer know which part of your argument are actually true. Give me citations, sources, whatever, and stop using weasel-words-filled, vague arguments that you yourself have been shown to refute over and over. Also, an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, so a claim of everything CCP said is false (by labeling it propaganda) WILL require extraordinary evidence, which you so far fail to provide, whereas a more ordinary label of "actions" does not, therefore a status quo should be maintained until you can provide the said evidence. --antilived 03:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

At some point I'll click on all the reliable sources among those 40 in the reference section, and see how many call it propaganda. All I'm saying is that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources are calling it propaganda, this really isn't a big deal. I'll check for sure at some point. For now I think you're taking this too personally so I'm happy to drop it for a while. I think it won't matter what I say, even if all of them call it propaganda, I suspect you will not be satisfied with that. Please tell me if I am wrong--let me know, if the overwhelming majority of reliable sources characterise it as propaganda, will you accept that? Let me know. No rush though, seriously. I appreciate your concern to make the articles better. I don't think it's worth getting too worked up over though, in the end. I'm sure you agree. Have you read the persecution page yet? You might find it enlightening. --Asdfg12345 13:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I just realised you may be quite disenchanted with that response, since you may feel like I have been barking about this the whole time, then when you challenge me to prove it, I say I'm going to do other stuff. I'm going to check all those ones there now, probably will take 15 min or so, then I'll copy paste the responses here. --Asdfg12345 13:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Some Examples of use of word "Propaganda"

It was less of a percentage than I thought. I did a quick count, and scored 10 articles somewhere describing CCP's use of media, either in this incident or generally as propaganda, and 7 not. Those were of the links clicked. But then one I opened had a number of other articles, a CESNUR site, and 4 of those said "propaganda". Counting those it's 14 to 7. There were a number of other articles in the references that didn't have links, I didn't check those. I'm going to struggle to understand why, if the majority of reliable sources describe as propaganda--and those that don't do not speak in defence of the CCP's use of media, so it is not like they are a -1 to the others' +1, they are a neutral to all the +1s in favor of the propaganda description--I might struggle to understand why this is still going to be an issue. There is a page called "Propaganda in the People's Republic of China." I intend to start a new section in it sometime soon about the CCP's use of propaganda in the persecution of Falun Gong. I'm a little tired of this argumentation though. Here are the sources:

Matthew Gornet, The Breaking Point, Time, June 25, 2001 –

“The immolations on Jan. 23 became a propaganda bonanza for the government and marked a turning point in its anti-Falun Gong campaign.”

“With the immolations, the government's six-month propaganda campaign portraying Falun Gong as an "evil cult" that unhinged its followers seemed more credible.”

“To ensure compliance, Lai holds weekly meetings at which practitioners read aloud propaganda screeds from the People's Daily.”

“Beijing's propagandists, who have worked overtime on the Falun Gong account, recently launched a variety show called The Voice of Truth and Justice in a Beijing theater.”


Amnesty International, PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA: The crackdown on Falun Gong and other so-called heretical organizations

“The government banned Falun Gong on 22 July 1999 and launched a massive propaganda campaign to denounce its practice and the motivation of its leaders…”

“In view of the government's political crackdown and massive propaganda campaign against Falun Gong, the impartiality of the government's information is questionable.”

“Another important part of the government's propaganda campaign has been to publicise statements from people identified as former Falun Gong practitioners who denounce the Falun Gong movement and its leader…”


Chrandra D. Smith, "Chinese Persecution of Falun Gong"

“According to government advisors, the strategy for a successful crackdown on the Falun Gong spiritual movement includes violence, a high-pressure propaganda campaign…”

“The propaganda capitalized on the alleged self-immolation of five Falun Gong members in Tiananmen Square on January 23, 2001…”


Danny Schechter, The Fires This Time: Immolation or Deception In Beijing?

(quoting Laogai foundation) “The PRC's propaganda coup against the Falun Gong relies upon people's understanding of events in recent Asian history”


Hannah Beech, Too Hot to Handle, Time

“Despite an unrelenting propaganda campaign, Beijing claims…”


Hamish Mcdonald, What's wrong with Falun Gong, The Age,

“There is also a hostile media campaign directed by the propaganda department of the 66 million-member Communist Party…”

“The skill with which Falun Gong has fought the propaganda war since the ban, according to French scholar Benoit Vermander, reinforced the impression…”


Jonathan Ansfield, Reuters, After Olympic win, China takes new aim at Falun Gong

“He said the propaganda campaign had been much more effective since the self-immolations of five purported Falun Gong members in Tianamen Square in January.”

“"It's only since the immolations that there has been a popular consensus," the diplomat said, noting recent propaganda had consisted largely of human interest stories and accounts of so-called "rehabilitation" efforts.”


Philip P. Pan, One-Way Trip to the End in Beijing, International Herald Tribune

“But even in Kaifeng, there are signs that the government's propaganda campaigns have lost some of their effectiveness.”


"Falun Gong Appeals for Help: Vigils Held on Eve of UN China Vote,”", published on April 18, 2001, The Boston Globe

(this one seems to have “propaganda” too much to count them all) The Chinese government’s oppression of Falun Gong is characterized by a “worldwide” propaganda campaign”

“I will attempt to shed light on the intention and goal behind the persecution, the methods Chinese authorities have used in this media propaganda war”

“To gain politically, party officials made Falun Gong a scapegoat: defaming propaganda against Falun Gong begun in June 1996”


Mickey Spiegel, "Dangerous Meditation: China's Campaign Against Falungong", Human Rights Watch,

“The internal propaganda campaign notwithstanding, Chinese officials continued to violate rights to freedom of association, assembly, expression, and belief; freedom from torture, ill-treatment, and arbitrary detention; and the right to due process and a fair trial.”

“…began propaganda and educational activities in one hundred cities using window displays, posters, leaflets, video displays, and lectures to advocate science and denounce Falungong”

“…Sponsoring organizations included the Party's Central Propaganda Department…”

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdfg12345 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I find this is all rather disingenuous. FYI, I also happen to think (purely for myself, that is) that the CCP stuff is propaganda, but I would say its use here as a heading is definitely in breach of WP:NPOV. You have been attempting to argue government propaganda as fact, whereas in fact your real agenda is to taint the affair by using the word according to its current definition, complete with underlying negative connotations. It's quite one thing to attribute "X says its propaganda" and "Y says its propaganda" in the paragraphs of text below. However, such views are not universal, as has been argued, I strongly feel it must not be used. I believe even writing "Time says its a propaganda bonanza" as a heading would violate WP:NPOV. Please do not insult Misplaced Pages, and everyone who edits here by trying to turn intellectual gymnastics over this one. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion Ohconfucius notified me of the debate at hand, and asked if I would give my thoughts on the debate. As the article's GA reviewer some months ago, I don't really have any authority of what happens here, but I might be a bit more informed on the topic that the average user, so take my opinion as you will. Also please note that I didn't read through the entire debate above, so apologies if I repeat anything or seem ignorant to any points or arguments already made.

The word "propaganda" has alot of connotations that go along with it, much of it negative. That isn't to say the word is off-limits, but it should be used only where appropriate AND unavoidable. In this case, while it is arguably appropriate, it does seem entirely avoidable. So therefore, we should avoid it. Calling the section "Government actions" seems like a reasonable compromise: it doesn't discount the possibility that the Chinese government enacted a propoganda compain, but it doesn't shove it in the reader's face either. Like I said, if we can avoid using such a pejoritive word as propaganda, we should. In fact, a further suggestion I have would be to call the section "Government response", though that may be a whole nother debate. As it stands, I think the section should be left as "Government actions", in an attempt to avoid any shred of POV, and to give the reader the opportunity to make their own mind up. Drewcifer (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay no problem. Thanks for everyone's time. I did not actually think I was being unreasonable, nor was I trying to insult wikipedia with intellectual gymnastics. I really thought it was not too much to expect that the CCP's propaganda be marked as propaganda, and that this view was clearly demonstrated in the sources.

But we're in the midst of a historical process. I am sure that at a certain time, describing the propaganda during the Cultural Revolution as propaganda may have been difficult, though now it is common place. Given its own time to gestate in the public consciousness the same thing will happen here. --Asdfg12345 06:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I dont see why a special text box is needed

It's purpose is to add emphasis on one particular point of view. If it must be included, there simply isnt a need to make it all blue and fancy. EgraS (talk) 18:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It's in the section reporting and analysis. It's also the prominent response of the wrongfully accused Falun Gong group. Don't forget this is one of the main facade reason for which the group is brutally persecuted in China. For example this is the reason when the CCP's mass media describes Falun Gong it sais that it's a practice that promotes homicide. Even though it's against all the Falun Gong teachings, even though the actions of a few individuals can not speak for all the group and even tough the self immolation act very theatrical and blatantly staged. It is thus the response for a huge, huge and painful lie (see Persecution of Falun Gong), which unfortunately the box itself, can not and does not emphasis enough. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 02:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Have you looked at the video? It's not "merely an assertion by FG media". --HappyInGeneral (talk) 14:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Some concerns I've been having regarding the article

The version of the events - such as details of the victims and "outcome" are presented as facts. Objectivity seems completely missing. We need to point out that according to CCP controlled media reports, these were the self immolators and their outcomes. Dilip rajeev (talk) 08:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Then it should also be added that every pro-FLG source should be stated as such. I dont see how objectivity is compromised especially since it only states the outcome, not the cause of the injuries. EgraS (talk) 02:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

My point was that it is accepted by HR Organizations, all major goverments and the academic community that Falun Gong practitioners are being persecuted in China and associated with the CCP's persecution is an intense media campaign. So, how could we - if this article is to be objective, take info from the very people who are known to use their media for the sole purpose of defamtaion, framing and slander when referring to Falun Gong - as objective information for an encyclopaedic article - ( even without mentioning that these are the "outcomes" as per the CCP's claims. )? Even the "outcomes" are suspect in certain cases. We can only mention that these were the "outcomes" as projected by CCP media. I'll be editing the article shortly to address these concerns of mine. Dilip Rajeev 117.199.0.67 (talk) 08:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it is extremely saddening that we are unable to maintain even this basic level of objectivity in these articles. Dilip 117.199.3.224 (talk) 08:49, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

While there may be some serious grievances on the part of FG practitioners - I would too feel aggrieved if I was stopped from practising my chosen religion - there are a whole host of agendas which contribute to positions of many governments, all of which have little or nothing to do with "the truth". Politicians in the developed world, and in the US in particular, have been keen to use China as a whipping boy since the end of the Cold War to further their protectionist agendas. They conveniently hide behind their own transgressions and point the finger at a country which has not embraced full transparency and the western way of doing things. Indeed, the whole 'self-immo' episode is suspect from "both sides", as both are keen to beat the other in the "propaganda war". However, neither party are credible IMHO. Each have a vested interest in perpetuating the perceived status. FG is particularly in need of this to "prove" that it is indeed being persecuted.
I am sorry you don't like the article as it stands. I think you are being hugely unfair about the article's objectivity. In arriving at the article in its current state, I was engaged in a constant dialogue with Asdfg, and we are more or less agreed that it is as neutral as we can get it. Partisan sources were only used where there was no other alternative. Indeed, the GA reviewer thought it was biased in favour of FG. The important thing, though, is that all the information which allows the reader to form his/her own opinion on the matter is included. That is what makes the article objective.
If you feel that it can be improved, then by all means. I would, however, urge you to go about the changes in a consensual manner. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Objectivity is based on third party mainstream sources, such as CNN or MSN which did indeed report the Chinese version. Your own research and sources is certainly not third party or independent. Read about sources. EgraS (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Certainly. We can for most part count on 3rd party sources. But since this incident involves accusations being cast on Falun Gong Practitioners by the CCP , it is vital to report what they have said in response - it really is a very much acceptable 'source' for this article. If some aspersion has been cast on Mr X, it is necessary to report what Mr X has said in response. Anyway, we do have sufficient 3rd party sources.

Oconfucious, with each passing day more people lose their lives , more innocent families suffer. By letting people know about the persecution, Falun Gong practitioners are only hoping that more good natured people getting to know the truth will result in the killings and torture being stopped. Nobody is trying to "prove" there is a persecution. The world is already aware. It is more a matter of human conscience - when innocents are being persecuted, some may choose speak out for them, some may choose to stay silent, some may even choose to cover up for the murderers - all are personal choices and in the end, I believe, we are all responsible for the choices we have made. I remember seeing this quote by Martin Luther King, Jr on a fellow editor's profile..

"I agree with Dante: The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crises maintain neutrality, there comes a time when silence is betrayal." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Am not saying this to argue with you friend - but please think about it - when innocents are being killed - how could anybody with a bit of human conscience keep silent? Would it help in anyway? Especially with the kind of persecution happening in China now?

Anyway these are not things directly related to editing the article. Regarding the article - all we need to do is conform to wikipedia policies. Some amount of restructuring may need to be done on the article. As I make the changes, I'll try my best to point things out on the talk pages.

I hope you are aware the recent escalation in killings that have been happening in china as part of ccp's "preparation" for the olympics - especially that of singer Yu Zhou ( http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2008/4/5/96088.html ).

Dilip

117.199.2.60 (talk) 14:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Categories: