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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thincat (talk | contribs) at 13:40, 6 May 2008 (→Image:Anne Frank the Hollywood photo Oct10 1942.jpg: This is a very partiocular photograph. keep). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 13:40, 6 May 2008 by Thincat (talk | contribs) (→Image:Anne Frank the Hollywood photo Oct10 1942.jpg: This is a very partiocular photograph. keep)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

April 18

Image:Silk Smitha.jpg

Image:Silk Smitha.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Arundhati lejeune (notify | contribs).
  • This non-free image is not being used in a way consistent with Misplaced Pages policy. The article has not described properly about the use of this image, except in the caption of the image itself. Thus image violates WP:NFCC#8. It's just an screenshot which does not add adequate value to the article as would be required by WP:NFCC#8. NAHID 18:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep How do you propose to replace a deceased actress's image from a film appearance? Resurrect her and pursue a producer to cast her? Have you noticed that the NFCC#8 bit applies mostly to people alive? While applying that policy so wantonly, would you also consider a deletion of Image:Iub logo.gif? It seems to have no description in the article either. It doesn't even have a source properly cited as described in WP:CITE#IMAGE, which may even be considered as ground for speedy deletion of the image. But, you don't really see people jumping at every opportunity to propose a deletion of material uploaded by another editor, simply because they have chosen to harass, stalk and pester that person. As you can see, Misplaced Pages policies are meant to be used with discretion. Perhaps you also have noticed that fair use images like Image:3 Occasional Pieces.jpg for deceased people are also used in FA-class article, as that discretion in policy use is an accepted norm here. I also am sure that you can see how it has become difficult for me to assume good faith in your actions. Aditya 22:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The actress's deceased or alive, that's not the fact. The fact is, there is no explanation about this screenshot anywhere in the article (required by NFCC#8). Screenshots can only be used in discussions of the TV show or movie they're taken from. But this matter absent here and apparently it's a violation of NFCcriteria#8--NAHID 19:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately there is little difference between a general photo and a screenshot in this case. Either would be non-free, either would be covered under the replaceability clause that deals with people who are no more. This interpretation is very much accepted by the community, as you would see that it is a fairly common practice for FA grade articles, which are considered to be examplary good work on the Misplaced Pages by community consensus. Check James T. Aubrey, Jr., Nirvana (band), Samuel Beckett and more (interestingly the last two examples here depict their works). If the name of the film in the caption is confusing you, you may change the caption. There is no immediate need to look for commentary on the film. That wouldn't apply anyways to an infobox image. It is highly regrettable that you choose to ignore everything I said above, and kept harping on a non-issue. Which amounts to nothing but petty lawyering. Something not expected of an editor of your experience in good faith. Ignoring all rationale and repeating a non-issue over and over again doesn't help Misplaced Pages grow, and doesn't establish the credibility of the nomination or the nominator. It just helps you make the last word. Aditya 11:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Image:Lifeofdapartyvideo.jpg

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The result of the debate was Delete (speedy I5) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Lifeofdapartyvideo.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Fergie forever (notify | contribs).
  • I do not believe screenshots for music videos qualify as fair use in song articles under normal circumstances, and nothing with respect to this case indicates this is any different. Skomorokh 01:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
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Image:Gabriel of Belgium.jpg

Image:Gabriel of Belgium.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Morhange (notify | contribs).
It is okay to give uploaders a few days time to rectify the license situation (5 days according to WP:IFD), but Morphage had already been notified on April 18th. And her comment here does seem to indicate that it is not possible at the moment to confirm that this photo is in the public domain - even if the described statement by the rights holders could be found again, it would probably be the standard release of the image as part of a press kit for promotional use only, which is not sufficient to declare it as freely licensed for all purposes. Regards, High on a tree (talk) 14:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Image:2008Swingstate.jpg

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The result of the debate was Delete (speedy I1) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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Image:Whitman's mother.jpg

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The result of the debate was Keep —David Eppstein (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Whitman's mother.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Sherurcij (notify | contribs).
  • I had disputed the fairuse rationale but the template was removed so I'll explain again. This does not to seem to satisfy Misplaced Pages:NFCC#8. There is no indication that the image would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in any way. The only mention of his mother's death in Charles Whitman was that "Just after midnight, he killed his mother Margaret. The exact method is disputed, but it seemed he had rendered her unconscious before stabbing her in the heart. He returned to his suicide note, now writing by hand." An image of her body afterwards is not necessary, especially given the total number of people killed that day. If someone else is interested, Charles Whitman has eight other fairuse images, which may seem excessive. Ricky81682 (talk) 07:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, if the other eight images were of bodies, or of his mother, it'd be a strong reason to delete this. However, as it stands the image is owned by a government source, so there is no commercial loss to the photographer, is it of a non-repeatable subject and adds significantly to the article as it shows the level of calm and such that he left his mother's body in, she wasn't thrown down a stairwell, there aren't bloody handprints on the wall, it's not a gory scene, he arranged her body lying in the bed, yet she has defensive wounds across her arms where she was clearly cut by the knife Whitman used to kill her. This isn't a "random victim", this is his mother - and clearly notable. Sherurcij 08:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
  • There is no mention of any of this in the article and that just makes this approach original research about how he killed her. How does the image help the understanding of how he killed her when there is no mention of the details (which ultimately aren't that relevant to the article as a whole). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
That's the purpose of an image, to demonstrate what isn't included in the prose of the article. It would be OR to write about the defensive wounds on her arms, or that her body was placed in her bed as though asleep, since we haven't found media articles from the day. But it's not OR to simply include the image of the body. Sherurcij 13:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
But you are claiming that the image is significant to the article because of these things that you are admitting you couldn't put in the article. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, because it's not "ORiginal Research" to simply show the image. Sherurcij 15:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Ricky, can I ask you to consider the possibility that you may have a misconception on original research? We agree that original research is proscribed from article space. But are you sure that unreferenced conclusions are proscribed from talk pages discussions? I believe you are mistaken and that Sherurcij is fully entitled to draw reader's attention to things he has no references for -- on talk pages. Geo Swan (talk) 01:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep (from talk page this morning) - But the picture provides information, to somebody who study criminal minds, crime scenes, provides a lot of information, just wathing the picture you can realize how he loved his mother, placing her as sleeping, taking care of details, as a crime scene is very intresting, as motivaition of the criminal gives a lot of light. Deleting images who provides information is a crime. 189.149.64.69
  • Keep -- Whitman's note said that he tried to minimize the suffering of his wife and mother when he killed them. The photo confirms this. I believe this photo DID increase my understanding of the topic. Geo Swan (talk) 01:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Look, I am not saying that OR is proscribed from the talk page discussion. My problem is people claiming reasons based on OR that aren't in the article. My concern is saying that the article is significant for a reason that is not clear from the article itself. The article merely describes her passing. If we are going to have a minimal use of fair-use images, this image does not seem necessary in my view. I cannot go and use a copyrighted image and then when asked about it, claim that it is significant to the article for a bunch of stuff that isn't or can't be in the article itself. The image also does not seem to pass the "omission would be detrimental to that understanding" part of #8 (which I'll readily admit is being fought over, so I won't focus on that), as you can easily remove the image and the article would clearly be exactly the same. Again, the article only mentions that he killed her and that he stabbed her. Everything that everyone is noticing is just stuff that they are seeing from the picture or from outside information that could never be put in the article. This is not the way to argue that image are necessary under our fair-use guidelines, in my view. If another admin thinks this satisfies, I'll leave it be, but I am more seriously concerned about the Time and Life magazine covers and the other copyrighted images on the page. Image:Coversvanity demi.0.jpg is an example of a good fair-use of a magazine cover, not the way it is being here in this article (but that's a completely separate point). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was Delete (speedy I5) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC) Image:Anarchocommunism.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Karmus (notify | contribs).

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete (speedy I5) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete (speedy I4) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete (speedy I4) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

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Image:Anne Frank the Hollywood photo Oct10 1942.jpg

Image:Anne Frank the Hollywood photo Oct10 1942.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Humus sapiens (notify | contribs).
  • This image fails WP:NFCC policy #8 on significance, because there is already another non-free portrait used in Anne Frank. The text in the image could simply be quoted in the article. Ilse@ 21:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
    • I do not agree with this image's supposed non significance. I found it (and other photos of Anne Frank in the article) crucial to my overall understanding. --128.195.54.180
      • There is no purpose of use description that justifies the use of this image. – Ilse@ 15:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
        • You are entitled to your opinion, Ilse. Others may think otherwise. Since this image is listed as LIFE's 100 Photos that Changed the World: digitaljournalist.org, and was on Anne Frank's page for years now, I am removing your tag. ←Humus sapiens 10:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
          • If the portrait in the image is significant because it "changed the world", this should be explicitly mentioned in the featured article Anne Frank. And also, only the portrait image should be shown, applying WP:NFCC #3, since the text is also copyrighted because Anne Frank died less than 70 years ago. – Ilse@ 11:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
          • Ilse is quite right. It shows what Frank looked like - something that is adequately addressed by the infobox image. If the image itself was discussed in the article, or if that portion of the diary was discussed, it would be a different story, but despite the supposed importance of the image, it is not discussed. Nor does the fair use rationale offer anything more than a generic rationale. The image and text are copyrighted by Anne Frank Fonds, and we should be using unfree media sparingly and only when necessary. People saying it is "crucial" need to do something more than just say so, and need to demonstrate how it is crucial. To say that this image is crucial to an understanding of Anne Frank is simply not true. The article existed as a featured article long before the image was added, and somehow people understood the article. It's a nice image, and it's interesting, but it's not crucial. Rossrs (talk) 08:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
            • This photo reflects her ambitions and aspirations, important for understanding her character and her fate. It was special enough to be listed as one of LIFE's 100 Photos that Changed the World, so the reason for listing it for deletion as "insignificant" is nonsensical to say the least. It's been included in the article since 2005 and there were no complains. Why is this sudden urge to delete now and disfigure the article on Yom HaShoah? ←Humus sapiens 10:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
              • The photograph may be acclaimed and historically significant but that is not what is being discussed. It is not used with any degree of significance in the Anne Frank article. This has nothing to do with Yom HaShoah. Please keep to the topic. As for disfiguring the article? It was made a featured article long before the photo was added. Obviously it wasn't considered "disfigured" then, or it would not have been promoted and displayed on Misplaced Pages's front page as one of it's "best" articles. Please discuss the use of the image in relation to our existing policies regarding fair use, and stop injecting emotive statements into the discussion. We're discussing a photograph, its copyright status, and our right to use it within our existing policies, and that's all. Rossrs (talk) 12:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - This image is not owned by LIFE, nor is it copyrighted as far as I know. It is in widespread use and of such a significant nature that I don't possibly see how its use could be a problem. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
    • We don't use unfree images just because they are not "a problem". We could harmlessly use numerous unfree images but our policy is that we use them only when absolutely necessary, so to keep the image its necessity needs to be established. Rossrs (talk) 12:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep it - it really did help me to understand and relate to her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.78.226 (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Request for clarification: would someone clarify the claim that it is copyrighted? I agree that it would, in principle, have been copyrightable, but it comes from an era when copyright generally required registration, and did not happen simply by default. I presume Dutch law figures into the matter, and I know nothing about the status of such an artifact under Dutch law. Who, precisely, is supposed to hold the copyright? The estate of Otto Frank? - Jmabel | Talk 20:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • According to Melissa Muller's biography of Anne Frank (ISBN 0 7475 4523 5), Otto Frank bequeathed the intellectual property of the diary and its contents to the Anne Frank Fonds which currently holds copyright and receives all income generated. (The actual pages of the diary, rather than it's text was bequeathed to the The Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation.) The Fonds was established in Basel, Switzerland, and is therefore subject to Swiss law. I'll try to find a weblink. The Fonds has taken legal action against copyright infringements in the past. Obviously more serious issues than merely the use of a photograph, but they have demonstrated that they take their copyright ownership seriously. It's important to note that we're not just talking about a photograph of Frank but a reproduction of text from the diary, which is copyrighted. As I said, I'll try to find something more substantial to refer to than just my own assertion. Rossrs (talk) 22:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Link to Anne Frank Fonds copyright page - in part "The AFF protects all personal rights of ANNE FRANK and Otto H. Frank. Jointly with the ANNE FRANK-House it claims the rights to all photographs of ANNE FRANK and to the facsimile of her handwriting." So we have three aspects in this image that are subject to copyright - her image, her text and her handwriting. Rossrs (talk) 22:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep It increases the understanding by the reader without reducing the commercial potential of the sale of the image. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep The image, and its use in Anne Frank, meets all WP:NFCC criteria. In particular, it is significant and its significance is (now) discussed in the article. Thincat (talk) 09:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment – image fails WP:NFCC policy #1, #3, and #8. This image is a composite image of two copyrighted photographs. The first component shows Anne Frank and is only significant as a second portrait when its significance ("changed the world", see discussion above) is explained in the featured article; until then the use of this component fails WP:NFCC policy #8. The second component shows a photo of her handwriting and this is not significant and replaceable by a simple quotation; therefore the use of this component fails WP:NFCC policy #1 and #8. The use of the composite images does clearly fail WP:NFCC policy #3. To conclude, I would like to suggest that the image will be deleted and a different version of the portrait alone is uploaded and well-embedded in the article. – Ilse@ 12:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Reply: I still agree with Ilse. I understand that many people like the image - I also like the image. I don't honestly believe it affects the copyright holder's ability to commercially use the image etc and I don't think Anne Frank Fonds is about to launch legal action against Misplaced Pages. But that is really not what we should be discussing. We have a specific policy for the use of unfree images, and we have to determine whether it meets or does not meet the criteria as described in our policy. So to address Ilse's points - as I noted above there are 3 things in the image that are copyrighted, which Ilse has also highlighted. Do we need all of them? Is the quote so relevant that it needs to be given? If so, it can be added into the article as text and yet in the 4 years that this has been a featured article, nobody has thought it sufficiently important to add it. Do we need to see an example of Anne Frank's handwriting? No. It should be of no consequence to anyone but a handwriting expert and her style of handwriting is not significant. This fails #8. The photo itself? It shows what she looked like but we have another image in the infobox that shows what she looked like. On the other hand, if this was the image that captured the imagination of the world, perhaps this is the one that should be used in the infobox. I think it would be the more appropriate choice, and we should limit ourselves to one. I would suggest that we delete the current image, because the handwriting and text fail our criteria as mentioned, delete also Image:Anne Frank.jpg as we cannot justify the use of two unfree images that own show only her appearance, and then use this in the infobox. Rossrs (talk) 11:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. We've established earlier that copyright is not an issue here, but the reasons for deletion keep shifting throughout this discussion. Something that does not interest you today may be educational to others or even to yourself at some other time. Many users have spoken in favor of this long-standing image. Both images are world-famous in their present form. ←Humus sapiens 08:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • We have not established that "copyright is not an issue". There is no doubt that the image, text and handwriting are all copyrighted, and unless each use fits in with our existing policy, the image should not be kept. It's not a popularity contest - it doesn't matter if 1000 people say they support the use of the image, if it doesn't comply with our policy, it should not be kept. It's really that simple. I take exception to your comment that the reasons for deleting "keep shifting". They don't. My own comments have been consistent, and Ilse has related her comments to specific policy points. You initially supported the use of the image by linking to LIFE, which shows only the image, and Ilse and I each suggested a different way in which the image could be kept. You rejected both, which suggests that your main concern is not the keeping of the image that you said was so important, but the extra unfree details such as handwriting, text and a second image which also shows only what she looked like. Each suggestion was a compromise that seemed to be in line with your early comments, but in rejecting each option, you 'shifted' your reason for keeping. Clearly we are not on the same wavelength here, and there is probably no point in either of us restating our opinions. Something to be aware of : what you write in anger or frustration remains in the history, and the damage is done even though you have later removed it. You made a comment about "improving content" which seems to be directed at least partly at me, even though I've treated you with courtesy and in good faith from the beginning of this discussion. You could look here and here and here to see my long standing attempts at "improving content" for the article in question. Rossrs (talk) 14:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • First, the image listed on LIFE's 100 Photos that Changed the World was claimed "nonsignificant". Then you claimed that "It was made a featured article long before the photo was added" even though the article was featuring this image for long 2.5 years, while being only 0.5 years without it. Then, you complained that the image is not discussed in the article (I agreed with this and addressed it). The concerns about copyvio went out the window when it was pointed out that Anne Franks' House links to our article as the first online resource, so you switched to "her style of handwriting is not significant", etc. And now you attempt to paint your opponent as someone uncompromising while at the same time accuse him as changing positions - when I tried to address your own shifting concerns for removal as best as I could. BTW, a human face shows much more than merely "what she looked like" - and this was her favorite photo. I also tend to think that handwriting style is important in an article about a writer. Writing a great encyclopedia is not a mechanical enterprise and WP:NFCC is still a matter of interpretation, so please spare us of posturing yourself as the defender of WP who knows what's best for others. I respect your opinion, please respect mine. Again, most of the reasons listed above for removal have been addressed. Let's move on. ←Humus sapiens 22:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • It would make no sense to move the text in the image into the article itself (presumably with translation) unless the image is retained. The text refers to this specific photograph: not any photograph of Frank. There is, and can be, no free equivalent; there is minimal use (1) of this image; the image is of (considerable) significance. Thincat (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Jasonsheemun.jpg

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Jasonsheemun.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Jasonla (notify | contribs).
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Image:Jasonla.jpg

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Jasonla.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Jasonla (notify | contribs).
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Image:Old_town_kopitiam.jpg

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Old_town_kopitiam.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Jasonla (notify | contribs).
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Image:Hillcity.jpg

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Hillcity.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Jasonla (notify | contribs).
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Image:Zboruvate li angliski.ogg

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The result of the debate was Delete —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Zboruvate li angliski.ogg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Bjankuloski06en (notify | contribs).
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Image:Earthquake Information for Pakistan.gif

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The result of the debate was Invalid nomination, article does not reside on Misplaced Pages. Deleting local copy of description page. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Earthquake Information for Pakistan.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Deeptrivia (notify | contribs).
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