Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Giovanni Giove 2nd

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Romaioi (talk | contribs) at 17:34, 30 June 2008 (→User:Giovanni Giove: more defence - modifying layout to suit originally intended defence (i.e my larger passage written chronologically before accusor additions).). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 17:34, 30 June 2008 by Romaioi (talk | contribs) (→User:Giovanni Giove: more defence - modifying layout to suit originally intended defence (i.e my larger passage written chronologically before accusor additions).)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

User:Giovanni Giove

Suspected sockpuppeteer

Giovanni Giove (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Suspected sockpuppets

an IP probably associated with the above
123.2.111.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
144.138.1.184 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
121.73.14.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

likely socks but to few edits to prove (yet):
144.138.1.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Michaelsweatt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Rasputin65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Topmalohouse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Historyneverrepeats (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Report submission by

--noclador (talk) 08:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Evidence

strong nationalist POV pushing of always the same (false) claim that "7th Bersaglieri Regiment took 6500 POWs at Mersa Matruth" 1st by Generalmesse, 2 by Steyr2007, 3 by Flylikeadodo
strong nationalist POV pushing in topics dealing with WWII battles with Italian participation or as he says: I have done much to rectify their image as "poor fighters"
this being the only topic that seems to be of interest to the users
all above are discussion resistant - if they head to a discussion page: insults, threats and lots of anger at "official allied historians" "that were embarrassed to admit defeat when Italians were involved" an example by Solarinoridge
none of the above signs comments
this: Generalmesse creates User Radio Berlin
all are experts at using google book search - i.e like Captainantoniocorelli whose third and last edit uses a google book by Tim Ripley as source Captainantoniocorelli and exactly the same book is used by RadioBerlin
insults - i.e. this one - also this is the 1. edit in six months and it exactly supports the opinion of the above and insults User:Kirrages and me - or this one insulting User:Nick Dowling and another insult
all have a very aggressive and threatening ton in their comments
his primary sources are: "Radio Berlin" (during WWII - go figure! what a neutral source!) "Radio Rome" or even worse: "The three Italian divisions have held their own through the rigours of winter, which was particularly bitter for them," Hitler told the German Reichstag" (in April 1942) - he uses that (!) as a source to prove that Italians fought bravely during WWII
if he is not pushing nationalist POV he is trying to justify the Dirty War in Argentina by quoting official (!) 1980 documents published by the perpetrating junta to describe the "danger" of the Argentine left... = same pattern of sourcing as he does with Radio Berlin and Radio Rome
If one begins a "discussion" another of the above socks continues it: Generalmesse & RadioBerlin (this edit also connects RadioBerlin to Drunkgeneral who both indulge in some obscure platoon positions ("R.3, R.4, R.5, R.6 and R.7") in the Battle of Tobruk Drunkgeneral and this would not be complete with Generalmese immediately chiping in with the same info as well here
always it is Australians, British and New Zealanders that lie about the "heroic Italians" this one comes from 144.138.1.184
a common love to add prisoner of war numbers (like trophies taken) - as well as inflating prisoner numbers by 500 on a whim 1 2

3 4 5

Comments

In short: be it edit style, reference formatting (or rather lack thereof), edit summaries, insults and topics point to a single person, who abuses aforementioned accounts to manipulate sensitive topics with biased edits. I first filed a report at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#sock master User:Generalmesse and after being informed about many similarities with indef banned user:Giovanni Giove I decided to request a check on the user here.

I made an error: this is not the 2nd but actually the 5th (!) case of Suspected sock puppets of Giovanni Giove!

I added User:Romaioi: just 100 edits but these are only in Italian WWII military topics (and at that: the usual ones: Tobruk, El Alamein,...) also he copies text that Generalmesse wrote directly into other articles

I'm just noting here that I've read the evidence but have not checked diffs. I'll sort through contrib logs to evaluate plausibility of this being one person. It seems possible so far; further results will come later. Yechiel (Shalom) Editor review 05:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

added User:Regione. Reasons: Manipulating the same articles as the above; with the same fascist propaganda bemoans the same "anti-Italian bias" (example) and so on... --noclador (talk) 11:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

added User:Ronpillao a dormant user who comes back to life today and continues the same nationalist propaganda crusade where the today blocked User:Generalmesse left off. Generalmesse edit Ronpillao edit(talk) 19:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Ronpillao 24 hours for violating 3RR at First Battle of El Alamein. EdJohnston (talk) 04:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Saintsarecomingthrough clearly another sock to go on were User:Ronpillao left off tonight. --noclador (talk) 08:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Added user:Topmalohouse canvassing for support for this editors campaign on User talk:DagosNavy (DagosNavy has been canvassed before and doesn't co-operate). Diff here:

Added user:Historyneverrepeats edited canvassing for support for this editors campaign on User talk:DagosNavy (DagosNavy has been canvassed before and doesn't co-operate). Contribution history fits the pattern of the banned editors activities on the Dirty War. Justin talk 10:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Addendum. See editor refers to message canvassing by other suspect sockpuppet. Justin talk 10:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

In an edit summary, User:Saintsarecomingthrough announced his intention to recruit meatpuppets from the comandosupremo forum. I looked at the forums at http://comandosupremo.com but did find any recruiting post. Also, that web site appears fairly serious, so he might not have had any success.
As to whether User:Historyneverrepeats could be a sock, he appears to a be a bona-fide long-time contributor and I didn't see him making any abusive edits. It also seems that User:Topmalohouse is a regular editor who works on military history. In this comment he identifies himself as David Aldea. An author by that name has published a book about the Falklands War. How we managed to get an edit war involving both El Alamein and the Falklands is still a mystery.
It's possible that there is a regular content dispute at First Battle of El Alamein besides the abusive sockpuppetry, and we should avoid tarring people unnecessarily. EdJohnston (talk) 14:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong and if you look closer you'll see what I mean. Did you read the comments by those editors on User talk:DagosNavy. They clearly link those two editors and the sockpuppets Generalmesse and Ronpillao - one refers to me reverted his edits. The link between the Falklands and the First Battle of El Alamein is simply that this editor sees his mission to prove that the Italians and the Argentines were "good fighters". Look closer at their contributions as well, they're very similar to teh pattern of this editor. Finally, as soon as one sock is exposed another arises - I think this guy has a ton of sockpuppets ready, as soon as one is blocked, he brings out another. This isn't a content dispute either, its an attempt by an editor to force his biased POV into the article, the counter arguments are fairly clear with some meticulous research on the Talk Page of the El Alamein article. Justin talk 14:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

as for EdJohnston comment that Topmalohouse and Historyneverrepeats are not socks:

Topmalohouse (who has 6 edits in total) says: "Me dicen que estoy cometiendo vandalismo pero si ves mis contribuciones,..." "No se porque un tal Noclador ha decido hacer la guerra contra mi en cuanto a mis ediciones sobre las fuerzas terrestres alemanas en norte africa y en el frente ruso." Me, I do, my, me, my - this are his words - but were are his edits??? Topmalohouse has done not a single edit in articles about "norte africa" or "el frente ruso" but Ronpillao, Flylikeadodo RadioBerlin Generalmesse Steyr2007 MedagliaD'Oro Drunkgeneral Regione have... Topmalohouse = is part of the aforementioned sock circus and that without a doubt!

Historyneverrepeats claims to be a a published author?? Come on, he can say any name he wants... I doubt that a published author will resort to massive socket puppetry to manipulate wikipedia. Anyway: Want proof that Historyneverrepeats is a sock of the above? Here it comes:

Topmalohouse leaves his comments on DagosNavy talkpage at:

Historyneverrepeats comes back to life after a 6 month hiatus and his first edit is:

11:11, 28 June 2008 (hist) (diff) Operativo Independencia with this edit comment:‎ "I hope this book helps, it's me David, please read my request for your help at http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:DagosNavy " oh he calls himself David - just like Topmalohouse. and interesting: which comment on DagosNavy's page does he mean?? Historyneverrepeats hasn't written one... but Topmalohouse has... So is it now clear that these two are also part of this sock circus??? --noclador (talk) 19:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I see that Topmalohouse admits to usage of multiple accounts here: Mira, si he cometido un pecado, es del tener varias cuentas para editar, pero pense que eso no era un crimen... (Look, if I've committed a sin, it is to have various accounts for editing, but I didn't think that was a crime..).

Since Generalmesse is now blocked for a month and has been unable to edit since 12:33, 27 June 2008, assuming that Topmalohouse is his sock and was editing on 28 June that represents block evasion. (We don't need to see evidence of abuse by Topmalohouse, just any editing at all while the main account is blocked). I've blocked Topmalohouse and Historyneverrepeats one month each. (They were both notified about the ANI thread but did not respond). EdJohnston (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I added the IP 123.2.111.245 Reason: from this edits here it is clear that it is User:Romaioi IP edit Romaioi edit furthermore this IP was the one copyediting the large pro-Italian paragraph into Italian Army 1 taken from Military history of Italy during World War II, a paragraph writeen just hours earlier by Romaioi 2, but Romaioi claims: I expanded it from a “poorly” (and largely uncited) written version I found under Italian Army some time ago... he found it there before he himself copied it there???

Also: Romaioi say: "It is a topic that requires addressing because of the long legacy of English texts to have a largely dismissive, non-factual, non-"NPOV" towards Italian soldiers.", "It’s objective was to point out that Italian soldiers of the era were not cowards, as depicted in too many English texts.", "I am have recently made contributions on Italy and its military in WWII and Istrian exodus etc is because they are topics are not covered very well in English texts - which my language (and what is covered is usually in disparaging/dismissive tones and not based on the facts)." "As a scientist,...", "My skeptisim comes from the tendency of authors of English texts (particularly the older ones) not have done their homework regarding the Itatalian contributions and other minor powers, literally. Further, they tend to be almost always grossly and unfairly dismissive of Italian involvement." It is 1:1 what Generalmesse is saying and the claim with the scientist... oh dear, yesterday he wanted to be a published author,... --noclador (talk) 13:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

PS: Both IP's are from Australia. --noclador (talk) 13:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The above passage (passages now) is highly manipulative. The comment that noclador claims is mine, has been modified. It looks to me put together from several sources, and frankly, comes from a past conversation under User talk:Romaioi:

"My skeptisim comes from the tendency of authors of English texts (particularly the older ones) not have done their homework regarding the Itatalian contributions and other minor powers, literally. Further, they tend to be almost always grossly and unfairly dismissive of Italian involvement."

Then noclador says this is "1:1 what Generalmesse is saying". I don't know what Generalmesse is saying, so please disclose here, seeing that the time was taken dig through some of my "Chats" to dig out the dirt. This has already taken much more of my time and energy than I could allow for.

Let me point out that if you read, for example, Ian Walker's, Iron Hearts Iron Hulls, you will find several passages like this in the introduction and conclusions. The book is available to purchase to everyone on the planet and has been out for 5 years. I doubt I am the only one to have read it.

I implore administrators to view my assertions at User talk:Romaioi and User talk:Noclador and note that my contributions to Misplaced Pages have all been verified by citations - from English sources, not the fascist sources that noclador claims. My IP's are from Perth, Australia. Last week I was in Brisbane for work (and did not contribute to any topics). If an administrator contacts me on a private channel I can verify my locations and my identity. I have already admitted at User talk:Romaioi that I am of Italian descent. I do not know how this is 1:1 Generalmesse. I have not read the passages. It appears from the conclusions that he is from South America. Frankly I do not have the time. Yes, I am a scientist. So what? Should I apologise for that? My PhD was in physics and chemistry - I had already admitted this previously. If I told you my name, you could Google it. But now I feel that I and my family may receive personal and defamatory attacks. I will be contacting my Lawyer tomorrow concerning this matter. This is not a joke and its becoming very personal. Being that it should be a professional environment, there are liability issues involved. What I am being exposed to is anything but professional.

At any rate the evidence is highly circumstantial. Until I started to reply today, there was no evidence on Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Giovanni Giove (2nd) pertaining to my username! Now I have discoved this manipulative garb. This now becoming a joke. EdJohnston states above that we should stop unfairly tarring people. Well that’s exactly what is happening to me!!!!!

Regarding IP 123.2.111.245, I disclosed this to be ME at User talk:123.2.111.245, note the date and the content of conversations (May 27th, 2008). Why has this been conveniently overlooked? I did not really know how to use Misplaced Pages back then. I used this before I registered as romiaoi. And afterwards when I forgot to log on, I naturally would have contributed as IP 123.2.111.245 (being at the same physical location). Either way, view the content changes that I made as IP 123.2.111.245! They are predominantly minor edits etc. Please note that noclador assumptions as per this passage:

"large pro-Italian paragraph into Italian Army 1 taken from Military history of Italy during World War II, a paragraph writeen just hours earlier by Romaioi 2, but Romaioi claims: I expanded it from a “poorly” (and largely uncited) written version I found under Italian Army some time ago... he found it there before he himself copied it there???"

are wrong. There was an original version of it under Italian Army, as I stated at User talk:Romaioi. The revision history is - edit made at 03:17, 1 June 2008. I copied it to Military history of Italy during World War II, as I said. Then later, when I was finished modifying it further, I copied it back to Italian Army. Note that I said at User talk:Romaioi that I kept it under Italian Army because I did not want to annoy the originator of it. (It has since been removed). You will also see that this is where I borrowed the sentence fragment almost always grossly and unfairly dismissive of Italian involvement (for a personal conversation on my talk page) that noclador inserted above in his attack against me. The location of where the original passage that I expanded was there right under noclador's nose to see in the history of revision for Italian Army. Yet he decided not to point out the truth to you all in attempting to implicate me. So what else is he lying about?

Also note, that whilst noclador claims that this modified contribution, currently under is revisionist fascist propganda, please note that User:Kirrages believes that the passage has a place(). Once again, note the source of the citations that I have contributed.

So let me ask. Does noclador have some other agenda? I would like to know what it is.

Note that noclador has also gone to the trouble of extracting an earlier, relatively INCOMPLETE, version of what I said at User talk:Romaioi in order to make the dirt look its worst!

This is not what I signed up for. noclador is trying very hard to incriminate me as being Generalmesse, yet he did not bother to see that the link to me, Romaioi admiting that I was IP 123.111.245 User talk:123.2.111.245. noclador is being manipulative and has been spurred on my assertions, which were intended to highlight my sincerity, but rather have been used against me.

Can the administrators please read my contributions closely, take into account my assertions at the above mentioned talk pages, and note that my contributions have all been supported by English text citations. I stand by my contributions. I believe I can make them with some authority, as yes, I do have an educated background, and I have been studying to topic of the involvement of minor powers in WWII for over 10 years as a hobby. In light of the historical legacy concerning these topics in English texts, I feel that these are topics worth considering. Please also note, that I have only made considerable numbers of contributions for a little over a month. I do have a day job and a family, so as my time is constrained I have not yet had to opportunity to contribute to a wider range of topics, let alone be intimately familiar with the administrative workings of the encyclopedia.

Further, can you please source the precise location of the IP's? I am certain you will note that the locations are different. You should at least be able isolate the domain down to the individual cities. Actually, suburbs. Use some advanced version of http://www.ip-adress.com/, or something like it. Who would have the energy to run around from location to location in order to write from multiple nic's? Surely, anyone who did such a thing would not be taking things seriously. Let me also ask, would I be this angry about the matter if the accusations were true?

Once again, please read my contributions closely. And if the administrators could open up private channels of communication with me I would like to disclose my identity in confidence. Please give me an email or phone number to contact. I do not want to disclose mine here in fear of personal attacks.

Frankly, this is now at the point where it is defamation. I would like a retraction and an apology.

Romaioi (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Proof that Romaioi is the aforementioned IP 123.2.111.245: look at last lines

Note that the large passage above (now above Romaioi (talk) 17:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)) was being written before this garb here. The passage below addresses this. If the chronology of the cross links are examined it can be seen that I provided full discolsure that I was IP 123.2.111.245 when I signed up was Romaioi. See User talk:123.2.111.245 and User talk:Romaioi I was speaking with Raven in Orbit about it. Surely a third person can see the sincerity in my posts? Read the content. This is not a circus. This is a witch hunt!!!!! Can someone in authority please put a stop to this???????????? There were no anti-Romaioi accusations on this page before today.

Romaioi (talk) 16:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

This is proof that a little over a month ago, I did not know how to sign in, nor how to sign a post with "4tilda's". There I was trying to mannually insert a signature to follow the form of Raven in Orbit's who was kind enough to give me some pointers.

It is interesting that someone who did not know these things a month ago was able to log in as multiple users and type away for all those months (and years?). In case you didn't guess and wanted to use it to implicate me, that was sarcasm. How is the witch hunt going?

Romaioi (talk) 17:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, don't just look at the last lines, read the whole passage at User_talk:123.2.111.245 and note the sentences in the middle: I have registered the username Romaioi, as the create account page states "You are recommended to choose a username that is not connected to you." But I notice that some users appear to be using their names. Does this read like someone with lots of experience here? Moreover, does it read like someone who is trying to be deceitful? The whole user talk reaks as though I did not know ho things worked. I believe it is becoming plainly apparent (to a reasonable mind) that my accusor is the one who is being deceitful. Romaioi (talk) 17:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

also: it seems that this is an entirely new sock circus and not tied in with Giovanni Giove: Giovanni Gioves unblock request, made by an Italian IP, while the above are Australian and Brunodam has a Bromfield CO IP. --noclador (talk) 14:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

added User:Ferruccio Vio reasons: one article edit sock, who refers to Allied POW camps as concentration camps just as the various sock of Brunodam do: i.e. Brunodam in the guise of Pannonicus refers to Allied POW camps as "Concentration camps" here already as he starts the article. --noclador (talk) 16:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Conclusions

You could probably make a decent case that some of these accounts are sockpuppets (or meatpuppets, I suppose) of each other. I offer no opinion on that since my activity level at the moment is low and I don't want to jump head-first into a sockpuppetfest, with all the fun that brings. What is clear, however, is that none of these accounts are Giovanni Giove - they don't talk or act like him, and these articles were not within his area of interest. – Steel 17:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
As someone familiar with GG, I have to agree with Steel. This isn't him. Not his style, or his area of interest. Given that we appear to be dealing with a whole laundry basket full of hosiery here, it's more likely in my mind is that this is an extension of Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Brunodam. Reasoning: a) Strong Italian nationalist POV, shared by Bruno; b) Bruno's history of socking ; c) Strong interest in WWII and the Italian role in it, shared by Bruno .
If there are any IP's in the long list of users above beginning 4.231... that'll seal it. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I suggest renaming this report to Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Generalmesse, since the connection to Giovanni Giove has been questioned, and there's not enough research yet to connect with Brunodam. (Brunodam has not shown any interest in the Falklands War). Generalmesse is most likely a South American of Italian descent. Any supporters for this idea? EdJohnston (talk) 17:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- To be honest I don't think anyone involved is at all concerned with whether its renamed or not, the frustration is with the disruption caused to the articles. Justin talk 18:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I see no point in renaming this. I made a spreadsheet for the contribs of all users except Giovanni Giove himself. Since GG finished editing after a couple of users began editing, the possibility for an overlap analysis exists, but if other users are sockpuppets of one another then they'll be blocked regardless. Overall I think the trend of sockpuppets is pretty compelling. It's weird how some accounts disappear for many months then suddenly reappear, all interested in the same fairly narrow POV. It's more likely to be sockpuppetry than meatpuppetry. The log entry of Generalmesse creating some other account is also virtually irrefutable evidence that those two are sockpuppets. I will send this to checkuser if it hasn't already gone there, but if checkuser comes up as a question mark, I think there's enough behavioral evidence to block virtually everyone. Before doing that, I would need to review the data again to isolate any individual accounts that might not be sockpuppets.

I see no reason to change the name of this page. Yechiel (Shalom) Editor review 20:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser has been filed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Brunodam & Giovanni Giove and Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Giovanni Giove. Please check both pages. Yechiel (Shalom) Editor review 20:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)