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Mediation talk

I think this might be the space for us to fight it out without clogging the talk page of the article, or the original request for mediation. Also, it might be a place where others can say how wrong my appeal for mediation is. There's tons of space, so go for it. I've said pretty much all I need to say atm. We only talk in circles without a mediator, I'll hold my replies to challenges until the mediator comes. So shoot. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Alastair, you are currently the only person that hasn't expressed an opinion on Rushyo mediating the dispute (). Can you please do so, so we can move this along? Ilkali (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The Issues

Hi folks, my name is User:L'Aquatique, and unless you tell me otherwise I guess I'll be co-mediating, with Rushyo leading the mediation. This will be my first attempt at mediation here on the Wiki, but I've done a lot of similar stuff in real life. Since no one has posted here in a while (as I write this this it's 7:45pm on 27 June, my time) so I'll see if I can get the ball rolling while we wait for a supreme cabalistic decree from the man upstairs (Rushyo, I mean). Anyway, it seems that most of the information supplied to us (the mediation cabal) was written by Alastair. I'd like to hear what the other interested parties feel about the three main problems (according to Alastair), which if my interpretation of his statement is correct are as follows:

1. There is contention about the title of the article. Since some of the article deals with polytheistic religions, is it appropriate to call the article Gender of God (singular) as Alynna originally did? If not, what should it be called?
2. Alastair then created a section called Comparative religion which addressed the first concern. It is not clear from Alastair's statement how well written this section was, whether it was sourced, etc etc, so I plan on going through the history to see if I can find it. In any case, it was apparently removed and personal attacks ensued.
3. A small section regarding the definition of gender and the difference between gender and gender identity was also removed. According to Alastair, this section was sourced, however he does not mention whether they were reliable sources. No reason for its removal was given.
   

Now, I'd like to hear from each of the interested parties about these three issues. Alastair, was my interpretation of your statement correct? Ilkali, Alynna, what is your perspective on these issues? At this point, let's try to avoid arguing and simply get the facts of the matter so we can move on to the actual mediation.
Just a final statement. I would strongly suggest that everyone involved, before you do anything else, go read WP:CIVIL, WP:DICK, and WP:CON. This is not a place to make personal attacks, to place blame on others, or to behave in a manner inconsistent with your age. Preview every single edit you make to this page, and think carefully about how you would feel if you were the one on the receiving end of the message you are about to post. And above all, remember that the other contributors, including Rushyo and I, are living, breathing people with thoughts and feelings, and any anonymity the internet might grant you is not an excuse to treat us any different than you would be if we were all having this discussion at the café over coffee. L'Aquatique 04:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Howdy L'Aquatique. Good to have you helping. In order:

1. I'm mostly neutral on the title and topic of the article. I have no problem with it being about either the gender of God or the gender of gods, but it should definitely be one or the other. If it's called 'Gender of God', it shouldn't address any deities that are not God.
2. "Dispute resulted regarding this text, but was expressed in terms of personal attacks. "Plagiarism", was one term; and, surprisingly given the first, "unsourced" was another". 'Unsourced' is not a personal attack. Neither is 'plagiarism'. For whatever it's worth, I don't think the text is plagiarised, and although I think the sourcing could be better, that's not a major problem for me (since it could always be improved). Alastair claims that "The text was never discussed in detail", but there was an entire talk page section dedicated to its removal, which Alastair gave no signs of ever reading. I maintain that the content is far too general and hardly at any point addresses the gender of God.
3. "A small section regarding the definition of gender and the difference between gender and gender identity was also removed". Checking the history, I'm actually not sure what happened there. I removed only the comparative religion section, but after I was accused of also removing the gender section, I assumed the claim was accurate and that I had removed it for the same reasons - the two blurred into one in my mind. Looking back, I don't actually have a problem with having a small section on gender. I think the text Alastair is proposing could be improved, but I don't intend to remove it any longer. I apologise to Alastair for not having more thoroughly analysed the situation.

There is also disagreement on the lead text, but I'm not sure if that's still an issue, since Alastair didn't include it in his dispute summary. I will wait for him to clarify the matter before I start making a case.

Regarding civility: Throughout this entire process, Alastair has on dozens of occasions accused others of making personal attacks. I believe that examining the history will show that this accusation is often ill-founded (such as when he accused me here, after I gave him a suggestion on how to create new talk page sections). His eagerness to take offense, combined with his propensity to jump straight to issuing 'warnings' (the details of which are never specified beyond those conveyed by "I'm warning you"), have aggravated and considerably slowed the proceedings on Gender of God.

I have more issues with Alastair's conduct, including a belief that he is trying to own the article, but I'm not sure that this is the place to raise them. Should I limit myself to talking about the content? Ilkali (talk) 06:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts:

1. It is my understanding that this article is about what various religions have to say about the gender of their main or only God. That's a different topic from the gender of multiple deities. It's clear that monotheistic religions belong here. I'm less sure about polytheistic religions in general, but for ones where the term "God" (as opposed to "god") is meaningful, they can be included too.
2. I haven't been following this aspect of the debate very closely, but it is my understanding that the section was either too long or too general. I believe that the current section "Clarifying the term "God"" was meant to address the same concern.
3. I haven't really been following this part either. I would have no objection to a short, relevant discussion of what "gender" means -- it would go well with a short, relevant discussion of what "God" means.

I was under the impression that the main current issues were the lead text, and which revision we should start from in working towards a consensus. The latter issue has recently brought work on the article to a standstill, so I hope it can be addressed in this mediation. --Alynna (talk) 15:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all I'd like to apologise profusely for not posting sooner. I've been unexpectedly rather busy IRL and unable to dedicate the time required to assist (thanks L'Aqùatique!). I'd like to just confirm the ground rules by stating that, yes, one really ought to just worry about the content. Discussing the actions of others seldom assists in actually helping further the discussion.

It seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the debate regarding the title is a semantic one and I don't think it'll be too hard to find common ground on that if every party states their opinions up front.

I'd really like Alastair to make a post outlining his viewpoints regarding his perceived worth of the disputed texts that were added/removed (such as verifiability, whether they were in context, etc). From there everyone concerned can have some things to find agreement about and specific points of disagreement can be focused upon, since it seems the other parties are somewhat unsure of the details of his complaints (including myself). -Rushyo (talk) 14:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For record's sake, this is the section that is in question: Comparative religion L'Aquatique 17:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello everyone, here are some replies.

I think Alynna describes exactly what an average reader may want from this kind of article. "It's clear that monotheistic religions belong here. I'm less sure about polytheistic religions in general, but for ones where the term God (as opposed to god) is meaningful, they can be included too."

I say "this kind of article", because originally it was called God and gender, which was much vaguer, and more naturally allowed exploration of polytheism. In fact, a small section was devoted to basic comparative religion distinguishing polytheism and monotheism.

Now I still agree with Alynna's old suggestion to change the title, which I supported and still endorse. However, I would not support a change of subject matter under the new title, since the question that was explored by the creators of the old article obviously mattered to them, it is apparent from the text they left, and can be developed by referencing a wide literature in reliable sources.

In fact, as Alynna's comments show, God and god are distinct terms and polytheism, monotheism, etc. are linked to the title in different ways. So these clearly need clarification from reliable sources. Also, although neither Ilkali nor Alynna have mentioned it, animism is also linked to the title and the subject matter, Shinto being a very large contemporary example—the official religion of Japan, no less. Some forms of Buddhism consider Buddha to be a god, or God himself. Obviously Buddha was male, but in his divine manifestation, do they consider him to be masculine, or like Islam, view the One Supreme Being as beyond gender as well as beyond sex.

That raises another issue, gender is not simply a matter of sex. A very considerable literature distinguishes biological sex from interpersonal gender roles as understood in a variety of cultural settings. Arguable it is monotheism where a single God cannot properly be spoken of as having gender, because there is no interpersonal relating at the divine level. In fact, Islam appears to adopt precisely this approach, whereas Christianity has a complex trinitarian understanding, where the role of the Holy Spirit is argued by a few as being feminine in contrast to the masculine Father and Son.

Now, the reason I requested this mediation is because the points I make above were being dismissed as irrelevant, without meaningful engagement with the ideas, without reliable sources being cited in support of those claims, by appeal to majority opinion and by ad hominem attacks. I would like the points discussed to consensus and the personal attacks withdrawn. As I understand it, we have no choice regarding the things I request, since "no personal attacks" and "consensus rather than votes or democracy" are simply Wiki policy.

I hope my reply clarifies the simplicity of the procedural problem, while outlining the fascinating depth of the topic this article addresses. Alastair Haines (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"I would not support a change of subject matter under the new title, since the question that was explored by the creators of the old article obviously mattered to them, it is apparent from the text they left, and can be developed by referencing a wide literature in reliable sources". I don't see your argument here. An article's creators don't have any more say than anybody else, and much less if they're not even here. I am invoking a simple tenet here: The subject matter of an article should be predictable from and consistent with the article's title. If the title is specific to God, the content should be as well. If an article were called "Gender of George", we would not expect to see sections describing the gender of Peter or Claire.

Framing this as a matter of monotheism vs polytheism clouds the issue. There are two types of religion that should be included: Monotheistic and henotheistic. Those are the religions in which the proper noun God is meaningful. Additionally, in the case of henotheistic religions, which may include multiple deities, we have to address only that single deity that is God. The others are outside the scope of the article. That's one of the reasons I object to your lead, which references "God or gods". If a deity is not God, it is outside the scope of the article.

"In fact, as Alynna's comments show, God and god are distinct terms and polytheism, monotheism, etc. are linked to the title in different ways. So these clearly need clarification from reliable sources". It's not necessary to clarify every term that could conceivably be misunderstood, and this one isn't a high risk. We include wikilinks so people can independently decide to read more about topics they're unsure about. I don't think we need to shepherd them into learning these things.

"Also, although neither Ilkali nor Alynna have mentioned it, animism is also linked to the title and the subject matter, Shinto being a very large contemporary example—the official religion of Japan, no less". Shinto is only within the article's purview if it contains a God entity.

"Now, the reason I requested this mediation is because the points I make above were being dismissed as irrelevant, without meaningful engagement with the ideas, without reliable sources being cited in support of those claims, by appeal to majority opinion and by ad hominem attacks". We're supposed to be talking about the content only, Alastair. Save the sniping for some other venue. Ilkali (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

All right, sports fans, gather round and pass me the soap box. It seems you agree that in this context God does not necessarily refer to the various deities of polytheistic religions. I'd like everyone to take a look at the article God, especially the hatnote: This article is about the term "God" in the context of monotheism and henotheism. See deity or god (male deity) for details on polytheistic usages. For other uses, see God (disambiguation). Do you guys believe that a similar notice placed on your article would help to solve this disagreement? L'Aquatique 23:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Great suggestion, specifically because it hits the heart of the issue. It would appear that Ilkali and Alynna tend to think of this article as addressing henotheism, where I consider the creators of the article to have intended it to address the history of human thought on gender as regards supernatural persons—i.e. it is much broader than either monotheism or henotheism (neither of which is as clearly defined as we may like anyway).

The problem I have with the suggestion is that it proposes (charitably) a content fork or (uncharitably) a POV fork. I'm not having a go at you L'Aquatique, even POV forks have their place, perhaps even in this case. However, I make a case against that in this article in the following way.

Max Müller, who coined henotheism is one of the 19th century scholars of religious thought, whose views the disputed section I added represents. These scholars did not isolate their attention to henotheism. Their interest was in the relationships between various religious views, seeking a "grand theory" explaining the history religious views, in particular the (contemporary for them) dominant monotheism v. atheism of European thought. In fact, although henotheism is a helpful theoretical category, just precisely which religions are classified by it would be highly controversial. For example, Mormonism is henotheistic (as far as I understand). Ilkali seems to view Christianity as henotheistic, although it has condemned that view officially since Nicaea. Ilkali's view appears (he didn't say much) to be similar to the view of Jewish scholars, who describe the Christian view as shituf. The Jewish scholars are actually divided on whether Christianity is henotheistic or polytheistic.

Additionally, it is not simply religious views that this article would seem to address (given its history prior to my arrival). Metaphysics in several traditions proposes pantheism, often conceived of as feminine Gaia. Now, we could POV fork so Gender of God (henotheism) reflects "Sky Father" religions and Gender of god (other views) reflects "Earth Mother" philosophies. For some reason, the latent feminist in me finds this objectionable. I'm sure others will appreciate the problem.

On the other hand, there's really not all that much more that needs to be said about this than has already been said—in the disputed section and in the comments above. These provide a context for the list of religious views, and explicitly invite significant alternative POVs into a single article, for a reader's ease of comparison.

The article title addresses the English language question, "What is God's gender?" The article itself needs to put that question in a worldwide and historical context, noting the English language question presupposes to a vague extent Judeo-Christian views. Plenty of reliable sources exist to contextualise more widely in a responsible way. In most cases these clarify both the words god and gender.

In any case, even were this article to cover henotheism only, it would still require explanation of that term, which immediately invokes the 19th century scholars of comparative religion. It would also require clarification of the meaning of gender in the supernatural realm, including the views of religions that are "polytheistic in practice".

So, I support the comment in so far as it points directly to what needs clarification right at the top of the article, but not in so far as it suggests two articles addressing separate sides of what has historically been an interactive dialogue. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

"It would appear that Ilkali and Alynna tend to think of this article as addressing henotheism". I think of it as addressing God. I mention henotheistic religions simply because they include God entities.

"I consider the creators of the article to have intended it to address the history of human thought on gender as regards supernatural persons". I reiterate that the creators of an article do not get special privileges regarding its future direction. If the scope of the article is to include entities that are not God, it should not be called 'Gender of God' (or 'God and gender').

"Ilkali seems to view Christianity as henotheistic". What gave you this impression? Regardless, whether it is monotheistic or henotheistic is irrelevant; what matters is that it uncontroversially includes a God entity whose gender (or lack thereof) can be discussed.

As mentioned previously, I am not opposed to having a small section clarifying the relevant aspects of gender - the difference between gender and sex, etc. Ilkali (talk) 09:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

L'Aquatique: I think it's a good idea to use a hatnote to clarify the article's scope, provided we can reach some conclusion on what that scope should be. From my perspective, a note like the one you describe, highlighting that the article specifically addresses God (rather than other deities), would be good. Ilkali (talk) 10:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

(unindent)No offense taken. Look, I'll be real honest with you and please don't take this the wrong way, Alastair, I think you're making this more complicated than it has to be. I see from your userpage that you are a scholar- years and years in collage has ingrained in you that technical writing must be written in a very precise way. I know how that feels because I'm the same way! But I really think that if you step back and stop trying to read meaning into this situation where there isn't necessarily any meaning at all, this will be much, much easier. Again, this is not intended to be a personal slight, merely an observation.
I'm curious what the other two participants think of using a hatnote to solve this issue. L'Aquatique 05:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase my last post then. Henotheism seems too scholastic for the lead to me, you introduced it, not me. What my user page doesn't say is that I've spent decades working with teenagers. Let's not speculate on scholarship driving either of us crazy. You don't know me, I don't know you, and ad hominem speculations, even if not slighting, are still not addressing the issue.

What the average dudes who first opened this article seemed to be interested in is whether there is any boy-ness or girl-ness to supernatural figures in real religions, rather than in, say, those of online games. I think I have little choice but to accept you introducing the scholastic approach, since this is an encyclopedia. I just can't follow how it's OK for you to go scholastic, and then suggest it is me that's making things complicated. The literature says the referent God simply is complicated when generalized. I would have thought it's our job to make what the literature says as easy to follow as possible, not to dismiss subjects because they're more complicated than we'd like. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)