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This whole dispute is going nowhere
It seems that one of the main edits in question is this. I first learned of NLP from my optomotrit Dr. Erwin Jay; I later researched the topic that night. I researched this topic again, only to confirm that NLP is highly variant and vague in all but a few key points, such as program one's self(in one or more aspects) to perform more effectiviely by adapting a mindset modeled after one that already seems to work. I have seen nothing that says that NLP cannot involve such "energy"; such opinions will vary from one NLP enthusiast to another...
Comaze, I would have to say that your reversions are quite tedious and unproductive. While disagreement is fine, reverting articles all day does nothing but increase stress. For such a vague idea as NLP, you should not be so selective in which views you keep on the article.
Faxx, and anyone else for that matter, if you don't have anything constructive to add, then leave.
As for the others, making a dramatic list of criticism of Comaze, especially during edit wars, is extremely futile(see Talk:Ted Kennedy/Archive_5). I have been through this type of thing before and learned from it. Also, he has done nothing to get banned(indef. block), so such suggestions are just ridiculous. If you do want an RfC against Comaze, then put it elsewhere. Article talk pages are not the place for this.Voice of All 03:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- Voice of All, thank you for your comments. I will focus my attention on discussing to establish consensus (especially on controversial issues). --Comaze 03:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- This is an interesting topic, so I might stay, but I still have to bone up on some of the smaller details. I am considering archiving this talk so we have a clean slate; this helped out for the Ted Kennedy article (altough ultimately some disputes were never resolved due to trolls). I don't see Comaze as a troll, so this should work if executed, assuming everyone is willing to drop the hatchet...hopefullyVoice of All 04:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi VoiceofAll - welcome and thank you for joining.
I think archiving this talk would be good - there's already an archive made till last month, expanding that with the current discussion would work? COuld you also provide some guidelines (what does "drop the hatchet" mean?) for us to work to in this period? (or do we just work as normal?)
The description you give (program one's self to perform more effectiviely by adapting a mindset modeled after one that already seems to work.) is an interesting one. Yes NLP is about modeling, taking on someone elses patterns of doing something, almost always to become more effective. The other thing that doesn't vary are some principles, and a set of patterns generally taught (some useful in modeling someone, some useful in taking on a new pattern, some simply modeled from therapists). From there what people did with the modeling and the patterns goes all over the place - though I've been surprised that when reading from prominent NLPers the message is more consistent (and comes back to the basic modeling + some core patterns + some of their own patterns).
I'd appreciate it if you could also read the parallel page (linked at the top of the article). The differences in the 2 versions will give you a good idea of where our differences are, I think (note that as of a week ago an edit-difference doesn't work). GregA 08:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Keeping it productive; Voice_Of_All
Well, I found that listing Comaze's activities helped progress a lot (the Comaze reversions/deletions were reduced to one or two daily). I will move it to arbitration though just to see what they think of it. I think its about time. If it stops him from winding everyone up on their personal talk pages, then that would be great.
Totally grateful that someone else is writing about how vague and broad NLP is. Some proNLP editors here seem to think that only a few obscure epistemology books are warranted, with the theoretical or scientific ones being automatically deleted. I feel the page itself is coming along fine with NPOV (albeit quite slowly). Hopefully proNLPers will also stop demanding umpteen refs per criticism. Personally, I just want to keep it all in order. CheersHeadleyDown 04:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"Totally grateful that someone else is writing about how vague and broad NLP is." I am not sure what you mean by that. (Nevermind, I thought I saw disgraceful, not grateful, I am too tired--need sleep:-))
NLP is basically like innovation in engineering--see what behavior patterns works and integrate it into your system. While spirituality can certainly be added, it is neither a contradiction to NLP nor an implicit feature.Voice of All 04:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
organized crime uses of NLP speech elicitations
Because NLP can use specific linguistic cues to elicit speech from designated subjects, a call-demand network operates methodically to collect words and phrases, primarily through the telephone. Network operators can also be said to razz their subjects, in addition to other judgmental cues applied during call sessions such as scolding, condemnation, coaxing, cajoling, threatening, teasing, and wheedling. All words and phrases elicited during each 'session' are used to affect social change in some way, using vocal demand strategies as evidence of the application of NPL to seek rewards, enrichment, or social approval outside the range of the subject respondent. Beadtot 04:38, 19 October 2005 (UTC)10/18/2005 04:38, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, this is an interesting line of study. I remember reading something about this in one criminology tome a few years ago. It was about jurisprudence, but there was something about con men and persuasion also. I will try to dig it up, but if you know of any other sources, that'd be great.CheersHeadleyDown 16:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- Beadtot, Do you mean the other NLP (ie. Natural Language Processing)? --Comaze 05:04, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds like he means NeuroLP, in addition to various other strategies (eg the logical fallacies can be USED to argue - ie attack the man instead of what he says, etc), even all the things the wikipedia say NOT to use can be used by people to argue reasonably effectively (just not accurately). If you have effective patterns of communication (and influence), people who want to communicate effectively (and influence) will use them (for good and for bad). GregA 07:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The word 'Programming' indicates some degree of volition, which occurs as one result of 'Natural language processing' which human organisms necessarily engage. 207.200.116.8 18:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC) 10/19/2005 Beadtot
NLP info
Sensory acuity
I want to add something about sensory acuity. This may go in the NLP Modeling (or NLP training) section. Basically, sensory acuity emphasizes the development and calibration skills of five physical senses: visual perception, hearing (sense), taste, feeling, and olfaction. Comments please. --Comaze 22:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- It would seem useful - it's another thing that differentiates NLP from other change work. I don't know where it would go - it's something crucial to modeling excellence as well as calibrating a subjects state for change work. GregA 23:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Metamodel
I think we should look at merging the metamodel stuff from the parallel page.GregA 00:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Modeling
I think we should look at merging the modeling stuff from the parallel page. Also, Dilts just announced that his previous modeling has often not been NLP-modeling, so we should include that. GregA 00:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Useful links?
Hi everyone and VoiceOfAll. When I put in a link, I read a passage and think "is there some more information that someone interested in this page would like to read, to further their knowledge of this subject". Often there is. There are also things we can link to that aren't really related - eg: Bandler taught a novice woman... - where it distracts. ... Where do you think a link belongs, and where doesn't it? I see VoiceOfAll putting links into years - like "Bandler 1988" - is this distracting as it doesn't further the readers knowledge of NLP or Bandler, or not? In the case of a year, I think the readers would notice that pretty quickly and know every year is just generic (as long as we never link to the actual "bandler-88" book). ... Thanks for your thoughts :) GregA 23:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, it is a bit annoying, so away I go to edit page...this will take a while to delete though...:)Voice of All 23:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- OK, I think that all the reference links are back to normal now.Voice of All 23:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
THanks ViewOA. Just some of my usability/design background coming out :)
NPOVing
Once again, I'll put a smaller amount of these in and also see if I can be even more neutral. If someone could comment specifically on disagreements this would be excellent. I firmly believe that a NPOV will only come about through discussing, I can't do it alone (it'll be my POV), and neither can anyone else. GregA 23:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- Greg, Just write from a neutral point of view (NPOV). A test for good NPOV is that when a third party reads it, she cannot cannot detect bias. I am going to work on my style as well. For every change we do, let's consider it from the perspective of all major viewpoints. That is something we need to reach consensus on, what groups represent the major viewpoints for this article? --Comaze 23:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, I know you and I largely agree on what we say, but with lack of feedback from others let me know if my stuff can be improved? (also, I think we disagree with HOW something is said...)
Your question is really interesting! I would guess the viewpoints are:
- people who have been burned by NLP
- people who have had a great experience with NLP
- people who simply don't understand what NLP is
- trainers wanting to explain NLP
- psychologists wanting to test NLP
And these overlap. What do you thinkGregA 00:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Fine summary, though you blipped it out as I was previewing it. Beadtot 10/19/2005 00:23, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Summary of reasoning for my changes(REPOSTED)
Reposted user's edit explanations.Voice of All 00:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I've shown the existing quote from the page as bullet point, and answered beneath:
- Originally developed for use in psychotherapy
Well.. no it wasn't. NLP was developed to work out the difference that made the difference, to model. On the path to this, Bandler wanted to know what he was doing (with Gestallt) that his students weren't doing. Grinder had no interest in therapy at all as he considered it a method of getting people to conform to societies expectations. They were both interested in modeling and human communication.
- NLP has since been applied
It is useful to clarify that NLP modeling and NLP processes have both been applied.
- Empirical studies have concluded that NLP is unsupported...
Headley keeps saying this is the same thing as "studies have not supported". I don't think so. And if he thinks it's the same why does he care which way it's worded?
- NLP emphasizes the mind-body-spirit connection.
No it doesn't. Some NLP practitioners do, it's up to them. As do some trainers.
- I definetely agree here.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I added: "NLP's primary focus is on modeling, theories are secondary (they affect implicit modeling)
Is this disputed?
- The swish pattern... primarily focused on... engrams
Some people might think so. I liked Comaze's comment that the swish pattern is based on internal representations, which is undebatable.
- The NLP practioners goal is primarily to change a person's state and reprogram their beliefs and self-beliefs
Really? Where did you get this? The goal is either to model someone or help them change in a way they want. THey may use state change, belief change, etc.
Agreed. That is not their primary goal, but it will likely happen, but it is not thier goal.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- NLP practitioners claim to help clients replace false perceptions...
I wouldn't claim that's what I do (depends on the client), I would claim it's something I can do.
This line doesn't seem to useful.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- some NLP patterns of persuasion within NLP seduction are designed to create negative beliefs
What's "NLP seduction"? NLP patterns aren't designed to create negative beliefs - at a pattern level they can influence beliefs, what beliefs are influenced is up to the person doing it. OK.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- NLP has been applied to many applications outside of therapy.
"applied to many applications"? should say "applied to many fields"
Agreed.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC) "NLP has been applied outside of therapy" implies it is a therapy. Therapy is one of the fields it's applied to. LGATs may be one place (is Hall your only reference?) but if you want to pick one specific 'unethical' application, you should add a counter example (I added Christian).
It is not really therapy, altough it could be integrated into it, so that wording is a bit fuzzy.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- "practitioners claim it's not uncommon... (phobia 10mins)
Some practitioners claim. Not all. Also JP implies that Griffin says all 3 of the claims (including "make someone fall in love with you in 5 minutes" - but this is not clear. Does he?
- claimed that the presuppositions of Jesus have been identified using NLP modeling
You then link to a site unrelated to NLP modeling. I changed this to "some Christian ministers have identified principles used by Jesus"... a far different claim! (and this is the link you give) You also want to write about Dilts Jesus modeling, but this is repeated 10 lines down - do you need twice?
- Jesus' modeling,
you remove that Grinder says this is not NLP modeling. Dilts also released today a paper defining NLP modeling under Grinder's terms and calling what he's done elsewhere as "Analytical Modeling".
Some of the far out clams seem to be strawmen, they probably should go. They don't represent NLP as a wholeVoice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- Upward eye movements indicate visual....
I added that eye movements correlate with internal representations and people vary.. upward movements generally mean visual. Why don't you like this?
- NLP advocates connect this with hemispheres....
I combined this with the same hemisphere stuff 2 paragraphs further down. Problem?
- Unsupported research stuff...
I moved this around but kept everything. I wanted to change stuff but for now thought I'd keep peace by simply neatening it up. Read it... it's all there. I did add that Heap and Druckman acknowledged flaws in the research - which is true!
- Meta-model can be reduced to "what specifically"....
This is Grinder's current model, and should be written as such. I also separated milton model into a second paragraph.
- The first subjects of study were claimed by Bandler and Grinder to be experts in the fields...
I changed this to "The first subjects of study were from the fields... surely that's no debate?
- Eisner: "exaggerated claims by the more professionally unqualified NLP certificated practitioner
- and: "qualified NLP practitioners can be hired for more complex work
I changed the second to say "professionally qualified NLP certificated practitioners" and JP said that was wrong (which I thought too, but someone quoted it). So instead I switched the first to "qualified NLP practitioners"... okay? I also removed "can be hired" - is payment relevant to whether it requires external assistance?
- Neuro linguistic Psychotherapy
added another NLPsychotherapy link.
- Coaching... in personal development fields similar to EST...
EST is not relevant to the application of Coaching. I moved it (to not make waves) to the last paragraph.
OK.Voice of All 00:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Please tell me what of any of the above you disagree with. Headley is saying it is "NLP rhetoric, ... spam excuse, .... and hype from NLP". I find none of that above. GregA 11:07, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Research
Hello Voice_of_All. I believe your changes have been quite reasonable. I do have some suggestions though, regarding research. The Heap and Einspruch statements (methodology problems) are both very out of date, and really don't have the weight that they seem to represent presently. Firstly, Heap's statements are 18 years old, and are more of a case of scientific fussyness, and Eispruch's research was disproved in 1987, when researchers conducted further studies and found Einspruch had been hyping things (and the study is 20 years old). Of course, we have other reviews (Levelt 1995, Drenth 2003, Lilienfeld et al 2003 and Eisner 2000) who all say that NLP is unsupported, and that Einspruch was wrong. They (amongst others) also conclude that NLP is pseudoscientific. I will update the "scienctific testing" section to clarify this.HeadleyDown 02:21, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree that NLP is generally scientifically unsupported. The article should definitely show this clearly. Seems fine as it is now.JPLogan 05:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree the research side needs to be redone, I was about to have a stab. BUT, I'm sure you and I will have vastly different takes on this. We need to look at the quality of research, biases (for and against!), and what they're actually saying. Would it be useful to post detail and discussion here? (ps. I won't do stuff on the main page for now, so we don't delete each other's changes etc) GregA 02:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The research has already been done. It shows that NLP is scientifically unsupported. Heap concludes that NLP is scientifically unsupported, as do Druckheim and Swets. Einspruch et al are the only ones to say there was a problem but this was totally wiped out by Sharpley who provides a great chunk more actual research for proof and concludes "certainly research data do no support the rather extreme claims that proponents of NLP have made as to the validity of its principles or the novelty of its procedures". Platt agrees with this, and all the recent research says the same thing, including some very scathing remarks about NLP being junk, misleading, dangerous, daft etc (Headley just stated some of those refs). Scientifically unsupported is a neutral statement. There is no dispute about that. Scientific linguists, psycholinguists, psychologists, psychotherapists (and some journalists) all conclude that NLP is scientifically unsupported. I will make the minor adjustments (movement not deletion) to the opening in order to reflect the article.DaveRight 03:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I also have a review by the British Society of Psychologists that says NLP is theoretically erroneous, ineffective and pseudoscientific. Comaze just reverted this statement. I will place it back in the opening section because it is far more accurate and up to date than the one proposed on the alternative page.AliceDeGrey 04:01, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Scientific research on specific NLP processes generally concludes that NLP is scientifically unsupported eg (Heap 1988)(Sharpley 1987)(Lilienfeld et al 2003). This has led to NLP being classed as pseudoscientific (Eisner 2000)(Lilienfeld et al 2003).
- My appologies. I accidently reverted your edit. It's back now and I've copyedited your post to follow proper citation standards. best regards, --Comaze 04:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- Dave, Headley just said that Heap, Druckman weren't relevant any more, though I agree they are. THey seem to be some of the highest quality neutral reviews we can get our hands on. I agree that "scientifically unsupported" is a neutral statement. It also makes no judgement on the quality of studies etc, and doesn't preclude future scientific research. I have asked for more SHarpley information, none has returned (yet!?). We should also fairly represent the studies, and try to get some that go outside of PRS.GregA 05:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg. I don't think anyone is saying they are not relevant. Just that the research should be conclusive (as it is). I have the Sharpley papers. What would you like to know?JPLogan 05:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- Critics say NLP is simply a half-baked conflation of pop psychology and pseudo-science that uses jargon to disguise the fact that it is based on a bunch of banal, if not incorrect, presuppositions (Sanghera 2005)
- That's a classic line. Straight from a newspaper too. I mean, I thought pop psychology was considered pseudoscience already? So what happens when you bake them together? Or... worse... half-bake them :) More importantly, of course the presuppositions aren't claimed to be original (ie they could be banal), nor are they said to be correct (just useful). Classic :) GregA 05:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a general view (criticism) I think it represents the criticisms very well, using a reference, and it even has an NLP term in it. Psychopablum is also used in similar articles. I will include that at a later date though. It seems that the thing to do now is not get in Voice_of_all's way.JPLogan 05:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Grouping common themes?
On reading through I noticed a few common themes spread througout the article. I'm wondering if it would be useful to group some of those themes under a heading. For example - "NLP and Theory"
There are also certain things which simply repeat what is in another section. I know sometimes this is necessary, but should we move others to the appropriate section? In particular, I'm thinking in "Goals" section, the last paragraph is entirely criticism (which I'd say wasn't a goal of NLP)... perhaps that should be in the LGAT criticism section, and "extraordinary claims"?.
The line at the end of NLP Presuppositions that Dilts modeled Jesus seems to be perfect for the modeling section. New Age stuff belongs under spirituality.
As I said, sometimes it is necessary as a reminder (eg: under eye accessing cues we should note that PRS studies do not support PRS, see section X). Thoughts? GregA 02:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I removed the criticism paragraph from the "goals" section as it is redundant.Voice of All 03:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)