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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hiberniantears (talk | contribs) at 04:23, 13 January 2009 (→TAF and Edit Warning: thanks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Archive 1

Τσου

Κανένα μικροedit εδώ κι εκεί θα κάνω, όπως πάντα. Ο Γιώργος έχει RL issues οπότε δε θα τον ενοχλήσω προς το παρόν. Που θα πάει, θα επιστρέψει όμως! Καλως μάς γύρισες κι εσύ. Τα άρθρα σου για τη διασπορά είναι πολύ ενδιαφέροντα (phallkloric χα). 3rdAlcove (talk) 04:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Slavic scripts

Yes, you're keeping the reference, but deleting the referenced material. I'll be happy to discuss stuff you have a problem with on the talk page, but blanking pertinent material ref'd by reliable sources is not appropriate. And no, we do not use other encyclopedias as references. They are not considered reliable. (I can't go through a page in the EB without finding a factual error, but this is also Misplaced Pages policy.) kwami (talk) 06:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

You have violated WP:3RR at Glagolitic alphabet and Early Cyrillic alphabet. I expect you to revert your changes immediately, or I will report you and ask to have you blocked. Yes, we should reach consensus, but meanwhile you should not be pushing a POV as fact. kwami (talk) 11:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

You are clearly projecting, as well as abusing your admin priviledges. Xenovatis

Skopje Airport

Both of you are editwarring, please stop or you may be blocked for disruption. —— nixeagle 19:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You guys also look like you are reverting each other at Airport St. Paul the Apostle as well. Please stop. —— nixeagle 19:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's not just us guys. It was me and user:Aramgar which, for some reason I can't possibly begin to imagine, dragged in someone with whom he has a RL relationship (as stated in their user page). Seems like a pretty obvious ploy to circumvent 3RR.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

If you think so, report to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Regardless all parties need to stop and start discussing. —— nixeagle 19:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no intention of taking it there as they don't have a nationalst agenda. My intention is to resolve this in talk, permanently.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

It is up to you, I only noticed your dispute because I'm running a bot that detects these sorts of things, and you guys triggered it. :) —— nixeagle 19:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your intervention. It has helped. Take care.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Xenovatis. What are "spirited clams"? Is that like a quohog, or is it just a typo? ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 20:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Saelogo.gif

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Winnifrith

Thanx. I know the site you quote from. Quite dormant lately. You've got to take Winnifrith with a pinch of salt (i.e. be cautious about him). His allegiances lie with the philhellenes. (He translates from Ancient Greek into English as a professor of classical literature what he is and the Vlach stuff is more of a hobby than his main "subject". His main concern is not to offend the Greeks thus he does his best to belittle that segment of the Vlahizmos (so to speak) that was by no means pro-Greek. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 15:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Quotes on the Pontic Greek genocide

Hi Xenovatis, I replied to your question on Wikiquote here. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Invitation

Please accept this invite to join the Unreferenced articles WikiProject, a WikiProject dedicated to decreasing the number of unreferenced articles on Misplaced Pages. As of December 2024 there are approximately 71,000 unreferenced articles on Misplaced Pages, so we need your help! Simply click here and sign your username to accept! Thanks!  ~~~~

--Captain-tucker (talk) 01:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek genocide

The page has now been moved. It would be greatly appreciated if you could be active in tweaking the text in places appropriately to reflect the more inclusive nature of the article and its title now. I have begun the process and there isn't a lot more work to do (because of the nature of the content), but your help will still be appreciated. Thanks. Bebek101 (talk) 03:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

My bad

Wasn't signed in. I always thought of cutting back on those two but I really could never do it. 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:42, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Btw, there's a claim regarding Digenis Akritas in the section: is that in the source or an original idea? Know who added it? 3rdAlcove (talk) 21:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I did, the source only mentions that his father was Syrian.--Xenovatis (talk) 21:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I will remove the case in point phrasing. Do you think that is enough or would it need removing?--Xenovatis (talk) 21:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting but probably still WP:OR. Sorry for being so nitpicky about things I do notice but since you're going for FA... 3rdAlcove (talk) 21:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, I will remove it. WRT race in byzantium i found another ref here that says it wasn't an issue. Tell me what you think. I am taking this discussion on the article's talk if it's allright.--Xenovatis (talk) 21:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, of course it didn't. My point was about the interpretation of the specific example. It's fine. 3rdAlcove (talk) 21:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Here are the references you requested all of which indicate that the Greeks "emerged" in Greece. Take as much time as you need.

• Dietrich, Bernard Clive. The Origins of Greek Religion. Walter de Gruyter, 1974, ISBN 3110039826, pp. 1-2. "Such features include the destruction of older settlements, like Eutresis and Central Greece, the foundation of new settlements, the expansion of cist-grave burials, and the "systematization of the megaron-type of houses". At the same time the so-called Grey Minyan Ware began to appear throughout Greece, and this distinctive type of pottery was naturally coupled with the arrival from the north of invading Indo-European tribes together with their culture and religion. But no single item on this list is entirely novel, in the sense that it possessed no forerunners in previous periods, so that inevitably some doubt attaches to the theory of a mainland invasion by an Indo-European or any other race at the beginning of Middle Helladic."

• Dietrich, Bernard Clive. The Origins of Greek Religion. Walter de Gruyter, 1974, ISBN 3110039826, p. 3. "It can be said, therefore, that there are no convincing archaeological grounds for supposing an invasion of Greece in Early Helladic III. It is possible, of course, that migratory movements into this region left no recognizable archaeological traces; but this is a dangerous and unworkable argument. It seems best then to abandon the belief in a large scale incursion accompanied by a clear and sudden cultural break."

• Polomé, Edgar C. and Winter, Werner. Reconstructing Languages and Cultures. Walter de Gruyter, 1992, ISBN 3110126710, pp. 482–483. “In fact, the balance of the archaeological evidence is now firmly set against the once-prevailing view that three migratory waves of Indo-Europeans (whether or not they had already become linguistically “Greek”), entered Greece bent on territorial expansion by military conquest (cf. Hooker 1976; Chadwick 1969: 80 – 82). It is perhaps fitting that so undistinguished a fabric as “Grey Minyan ware” should have been at the leading edge of debate concerning so spectral a subject as “the coming of the Greeks”. At any rate, the pottery evidence no longer supports these phantom invasions, since “it is now seen that the technique of manufacturing Grey Minyan ware was developed locally in Greece.” (Hooker 1976:29).

• Polome, Edgar C. Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture and Religion: Studies in Honor of Edgar C. Polome. Institute for the Study of Man, 1992, ISBN 0941694372, p. 29. "However, it is difficult to find archaeological evidence for an invasion of the Balkans, that might be associated with the Proto-Greeks."

• Runnels, Curtis Neil and Murray, Priscilla. Greece Before History: An Archaeological Companion and Guide. Stanford University Press, 2001, ISBN 080474050X, p. 64. "It seems to us an inevitable conclusion that Greek life as we know it from the annals of history began in the humble Neolithic village of Thessaly and the Peloponnese. To say that little has changed in Greek village life from the Neolithic to early industrial times is a cliché and an oversimplification, of course, and while it may be true that mud-brick houses, agricultural rhythms, and simple tools and pots have similarities across the centuries, culture has also changed, as it is expressed in language, custom, kinship, the arts, religion, and social structure. But patterns of life do persist for centuries, and in the absence of evidence of great rifts in this fabric we have no reason to suppose that a profound change in ethnicity, however this may be defined, has occurred. Neolithic civilization stands as the first true Greek civilization, indeed the first recorded European civilization, and for this reason the few precious finds recovered from archaeological excavations in the Thessalian tells have special significance for the world."

Thanks for opening this discussion my friend. Happy Holidays. Deucalionite (talk) 23:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Cuisine

You can always ask User:Macrakis for input wrt the particular section. I'm sure he'll be haaappy to point out other inaccuracies and errors as well. 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for rewording- great job! and Merry Chirstmas GreyisthenewBlack (talk) 14:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Geia sou, Xenovati. Thanks for your contributions to the Greek cuisine article (among others). Did you have a particular issue you wanted to talk about? --macrakis (talk) 04:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Cypriot British

Hi. Thanks for adding more detail to the Cypriot British article. If it's OK with you, I might try to merge that paragraph with the existing text because it's written as if Greek Cypriots haven't already been discussed by that point in the article, when they have been. Also, I wasn't sure that it was all relevant. For example, "there was also an increase in the number of Greek Cypriots leaving, especially for the Middle East" and "Today more than two thirds of the Greek population in Cyprus is urban" probably belong more in an article about Cyprus or Cypriot emigration than in an article about Cypriot Brits. What do you think? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, looking at it again, I think pretty much all of the information you added other than the bits about emigration to the Middle East and the urban population was already in the article. I'm going to remove it for now but come back to me if you think there is something worth including. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. However one fairly crucial bit of information was somehow omitted. That has now been rectified. Merry Christmas.--Xenovatis (talk) 22:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

What was that? I see you made this edit, but none of the references provided back up the claims being made. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Did you actually read the cited passages? I mean the parts where Holland for example talks about "ethnic cleansing".--Xenovatis (talk) 22:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but he's talking about 1958 whereas you're using it to support a statement about 1974. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

And the Sicilianos reference you've just added doesn't support it either. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Can we just use the Borowiec reference? That seems to be pretty clear. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually I found some more and they all seem to support the case for ethnic cleansing by turkey in the occupied lands. I suggest we keep only 1 that includes them all in order to deter future vandalism.--Xenovatis (talk) 23:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't understand that? You want to keep one or all of them? Cordless Larry (talk) 23:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Sicilianos says, and I quote: "In occupied Cyprus on the other hand where heavy ethnic cleansing took place" etc. Pretty obvious support. But it is not one of my strongest.--Xenovatis (talk) 23:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Now I see it. The version on Google Books has two page 24s for some reason! Cordless Larry (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. Are you happy with the current format?--Xenovatis (talk) 23:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Almost. Borowiec gives a lower figure though, suggesting that the 200,000 is only used by government sources and suggesting that it might be unreliable. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I am happy to go with his figure of 140-160.--Xenovatis (talk) 23:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could put that and then say "and put as high as 200,000 by Cypriot government sources"? Cordless Larry (talk) 23:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

OK.--Xenovatis (talk) 23:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Although I can't help but think that all this detail would be better placed at Turkish invasion of Cyprus, which simply gives the 200,000 figure. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I've added the information to Turkish invasion of Cyprus. I think we could lose the number of people displaced at Cypriot British because it doesn't really have any relevance to the article. We already have the number who came to the UK, which is the relevant statistic for this article. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi again.

Here is another source regarding the "emergence" of the Greeks.

• Catling, H.W. "Archaeology in Greece, 1973-74". Archaeological Reports, No. 20. (1973 - 1974), pp. 3-41. "Lake Copais area. Th. Spyropoulos reports preliminary results of his research into the prehistoric settlement of the Copaic basin. Of particular interest are the rich Neolithic finds (Fig. 33) from a cave, Spilia tou Sarakéou, on the west slopes of Mt Ptoon, occupied continuously from Paleolithic, through Neolithic to Middle Helladic times."

I think it is safe to state that the "proto-Greeks" emerged in Greece rather than in central Europe. I don't think there is a lot of hard proof to substantiate an Indo-European migration of "would-be Greeks" from the Pannonian Plain to Greece in prehistoric times.

I recommend incorporating the following sentences:

The progenitors of the proto-Greeks emerged in mainland Greece during the Early Helladic period. However, the Mycenaeans became the first Greek-speaking people, as attested by the Iliad and Odyssey and later the deciphering of their Linear B script.

The so-called "mingling" between the "proto-Greeks" and "pre-Hellenic populations" is a throwback to 19th century scholarship that acknowledges an Indo-European migration(s) that in reality is nothing more than a simple phantom invasion(s). The fact that there is a demographic continuity from Paleolithic times up until the Middle Helladic period (i.e. "Minyans" or "proto-Greeks") should help clarify as to where the "would-be Greeks" first originated.

Enjoy the holidays my friend. Deucalionite (talk) 07:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

P.S. If you want replace the "Early Helladic period" with "Neolithic era" or "Paleolithic times", then go right ahead. Deucalionite (talk) 07:40, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Kales Giortes

I checked the Greek identity article and think it's sort of redundant (not a bad idea though) since everything about Greek identity is in the "Greeks" article. Don't worry about spatial constraints, because a lot of FA articles are very long. I think it would be best to reincorporate the "Genetic origins" section back to the "Greeks" article (if you look at the Jews article, it has the same thing). Deucalionite (talk) 14:51, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

P.S. As for the "Greeks" article, I think my "bold" statements fulfill both WP:BOLD and WP:RS (as far as Misplaced Pages policies are concerned). Deucalionite (talk) 14:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that all ethnic group articles have a genetics section but I always fancied we were unique in not placing emphasis on this component for membership in Hellenism. If however you think it is required by all means re-add a paragraph on genetics as a separate section in the identity section. I will try to do it myself and condence the material so that it includes all sources. Eucharisto Deuci.--Xenovatis (talk) 14:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

I'm not sure what you mean by "science". Is there any physical proof to substantiate the "Out of Central Europe" theory? If there is, then I support your proposal 100%. Don't take my obstinence the wrong way. I think you're doing a wonderful job. However, I don't want sections of the "Greeks" article containing throwback 19th century scholarship that passes itself for "modern science". Readers deserve better. Deucalionite (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Counterproposal

Here is my counterproposal. Consensus or not, if there is no evidence to substantiate the "Out of Central Europe" theory, then that theory is not scientific. This being Christmas and all, I've decided to maintain the first sentence reflecting the "consensus view". As far as the physical evidence is concerned, any 19th century "admixture fetish" between proto-Greeks and pre-Greeks is useless and must be removed.

• Proto-Greeks are thought to have emerged in Central Europe, in what is called today the Pannonian Plain. However, there is no physical evidence to substantiate this theory. Their progenitors were likely to have been present in mainland Greece since prehistoric times. The Mycenaeans were ultimately the first Greek-speaking people, as attested by the Iliad and Odyssey and later the deciphering of their Linear B script.

1. Renfrew, Colin; McMahon, April M. S. (2000). Time depth in historical linguistics. Cambridge, England: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. p. 486. ISBN 1-902937-06-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Indo-European poetry and myth. Oxford : Oxford University Press. 2007. p. 8. ISBN 0-19-928075-4.
3. Polome, Edgar C. Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture and Religion: Studies in Honor of Edgar C. Polome. Institute for the Study of Man, 1992, ISBN 0941694372, p. 29. "However, it is difficult to find archaeological evidence for an invasion of the Balkans, that might be associated with the Proto-Greeks."
4. Murray, Priscilla; Runnels, Curtis N. (2001). Greece before history: an archaeological companion and guide. Stanford, Calif: Stanford University Press. p. 64. ISBN 0-8047-4050-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
5. Catling, H.W. "Archaeology in Greece, 1973-74". Archaeological Reports (20): 3–41. Lake Copais area. Th. Spyropoulos reports preliminary results of his research into the prehistoric settlement of the Copaic basin. Of particular interest are the rich Neolithic finds (Fig. 33) from a cave, Spilia tou Sarakéou, on the west slopes of Mt Ptoon, occupied continuously from Paleolithic, through Neolithic to Middle Helladic times. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |coauthors= and |month= (help)
6. "'Mycenaean language". Encyclopedia Britannica. US: Encyclopedia Britannica Inc. 2008. Online Edition.

This, I think, is better since it acknowledges the consensus view while revealing its major faults. That way, the article maintains some kind of scientific credibility. Deucalionite (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Maps

Nah, I don't mind. I still think the green one is a bit sub-par, though. There might be other good ones around. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Let's collaborate

Like I said on my talk page, you are right to insist that we do things based on collaborative efforts. Tell me what you want me to collaborate on, and I will do my best to help. By the way, I am not trying to engage in an edit war. I may be obstinate, but not unreasonable. Deucalionite (talk) 19:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Alexander in Classical section

Do you mind if we keep a version more faithful to the previous one? I understand that this might be a bit touchy with some Greeks (I'm not referring to you, obviously) but there is genuine disagreement on motives (and as you know, even relationships) so I'd rather that we take a more indifferent (as in, not showing "preference" indirectly) view. We could perhaps sidestep it altogether with a bit of reduction. 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. Go right ahead. We could say something like "the avowed purpose was revenge for the Persian invasions but the actual motives were more prosaic eg conquest, loot etc." --Xenovatis (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

Sorry to bother you again, but I've provided a suggestion on my talk page regarding the "origins of the Greeks". Feel free to stop by and tell me what you think. Deucalionite (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Just so you know, I provided a response to your suggestion. Deucalionite (talk) 22:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Greeks and Pre-Greeks

I noticed that you achieved a compromise with D. mentioning that "Due to the paucity of physical evidence in support of this theory, it has been suggested that the proto-Greeks were present there since prehistoric times." Is ANYONE disputing that? I suppose one could argue over the meaning of "proto-Greek" but the point here is simply that we can't be entirely sure about the date of the IE-to-be-Greek migration/infiltration, not that they weren't present in Greece since prehistory (even 1600 is prehistory for Greece, of course). His insistence, to be perfectly honest, has more to do with his theories of "Greek autochthony" than anything else, including a need to adhere to the Truth. Frankly it's getting a bit annoying. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

If I adhered to the "Truth" 3rdAlcove, then I wouldn't even bother to compromise with Xenovatis let alone collaborate with anyone. The only reason you find me and my "Greek autochthony theories" annoying is because your preference is towards abstract IE theories instead of hard evidence. To each his own as far as I'm concerned. However, if you have a problem with the compromise Xenovatis and I established, then please come up with some counterevidence and make your case. Talking s**** behind my back gets you nowhere buddy. Now that's annoying. Cheers. Deucalionite (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Deuci please understand that this article is problematic as it is and highly unlikely to pass muster at any sort of review. The peer review it has received so far was extremely critical and in fact mentioned, twice, the mycenaean section and the undue weight given to the autochthony hypothesis. Under these conditions I don't see how it can remain in the article. I realise you feel it is correct but untill the wider academic community comes around it doesn't have a place there.--Xenovatis (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I understand your bias and the biases of other users completely. That is why I compromised seeing that Misplaced Pages is not ready to acknowledge all the hard facts. I'm sorry for being obstinate, but I don't see how one measly sentence complementing the consensus view creates "undue weight". Just because some users don't like certain facts doesn't mean that they are not relevant to the article.

As long as the academic community acknowledges the faults behind the "Pannonian Theory", there is no way that one measly sentence violates WP:UNDUE. My friend, you accomplished a feat when you managed to convince me that two sentences in support of the so-called "autochthony theory" would cause dissonance. Please don't ruin it. Deucalionite (talk) 16:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

If I wanted to "talk shit" (you messed your asterisks up) behind your back I wouldn't do it on a public talk page. No, what will not get us anywhere are "compromises" with you. You've made it clear before. 3rdAlcove (talk) 16:03, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Who cares about the asterisks. Public or not, your grievances with me should be taken to my talk page where I can provide you with a proper response. Deucalionite (talk) 16:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

True enough wrt "Western reviewers", though I believe that most(?) problems regarding an "essential", monolithic Greek identity, unchanging through time (even the horrifying "admixture" for the hardcore ones) have been addressed to a great degree since your major edits on the article (now and back then). 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you could always invite some of the people who contested such matters in the past (I could name names) and met some resistance from our compatriots. A harsh, or at least foreign, Western, English-speaking-world, viewpoint might actually be constructive in creating a really good article in the long run... 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Pmanderson and Macrakis for example. It's unfortunate that Giorgos isn't around these days. Yannis and Dr. K could also be of help. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you think you could add a line regarding foreign influence on surnames (eg Arvanitic, Venetian, Turkish in roots and suffixes)? Have any sources handy? 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:01, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

So, what are your thoughts for the article's future? Fut.Per. seems to be back, btw, so a request for comment might help. 3rdAlcove (talk) 16:03, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Good luck.

Seems like everyone αραιώνει, lately. Btw, I think you've done a pretty decent job on the Greeks article so far (especially considering how difficult such articles are to work on/with, for a variety of reasons that you're familiar with, from space limitations to...). Everyone who envisions it as an "FA finished product" certainly can't evaluate the work done so far, especially without reviewing it. I hope you get back to it soon, anyhow. I might add a few things, now and then. 3rdAlcove (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

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TAF and Edit Warning

It isn't that I disagree with your overall sentiment as far as the facts you are trying to add to the Turkish Armed Forces article. However, the content is editorial, rather than NPOV, and is clearly only going to start an edit war. If you want it in the article, very well, but take it to the talk page and develop an NPOV version of it first. Because you are a regular, I am not dropping a template warning, but consider this your first warning. Hiberniantears (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Better version the second time through. Consider my warning removed, and you have my thanks for removing the rhetoric. I suspect it will still get hit with some edit war action, but it has lasted most of this evening, so it may yet have a chance. Hiberniantears (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)