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This article was nominated for deletion on 9 January 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

The link I posted in "External Links" is by an amateur Portuguese historian with the same academic credentials in this field as Arthur Kemp.

It would appear that Mr Kemp is currently in the midst of an extensive rewrite of his own biographic article.. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

encyclopedic notability

Even as a published author, I'm not feel'n it. and may propose this for deletion in a couple of days. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources

The sources used mostly don't seem to be reliable sources. I removed a few things that were clearly not good sources, marked a few places that need sources.

Mr. Kemps blog and books are only good for his opinion and response to things, not as facts for the article. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

after looking a bit more at splc, I'm inclined to remove the whole section as unverifiable. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum to either bash or promote anyone. I also put a note at the reliable sources noticeboard, hopefully some regular there has already investigated the reliability of the splc. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 01:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

also please sign your posts with four (4) tilde's (~), or the signature button (next to the red circle ignore wikiformatting button at the top of the edit box). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, the SPLC section is completely inverifiable, and, as I have said before, an obvious personal attack, based on completely made-up and invented alleagtions which have no basis in truth whatsoever. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Notable?

According to Gnews hits, it might appear so. However, Arthur Kemp should not be editing his own biography, and if he continues to edit war here, he should be blocked from editing. The article itself is quite poor right now, but I think it would almost certainly survive an AfD. SDJ 01:20, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

hmm, yeah. I guess so. Likely that stuff will take the article to places the subject will object to. Have to be a bit later though, to check out the newsbank articles. Hopefully, Mr. Kemp doesn't do something to get blocked in the mean time. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 01:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

If no one else cleans this mess of an article up, I may do it myself. As you say, Kemp may not like where the reliable sources take it though, so I'm not real anxious to dive in right now. SDJ 05:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Verifiable sources? All that will show is what I posted originally.

Once again, I want to highlight was happened here:

1. An anonymous poster made a Wiki entry on myself, quoting an utterly unprovable and unsubstantiated pack of lies;

2. I edited the entry, using references, pointing out the huge number of serious factual errors (starting with simple stuff such as getting my birth date wrong -- so much for the 'facts' being quoted)

3. My comments then get rejected because it is my 'point of view.'

I find it bizarre that anyone can post any lie they want to about somebody else, and then where the subject says 'no, that is not true' then his comment gets made out to be the 'bad' one. Amazing.

Let me give one example (there are many. many more). The original article said that I was an international 'contact' with the NPD in Germany. Now, I have never been to a NPD meeting, know no-one in that group and have never had anything to do with it.

Now, my comment to that effect gets marked up as needing 'citation' -- how on earth do I 'prove' that something never happened, when there are no references to it, precisely because it did not happen.

I hope you will see that this is fundamentally unfair, and I will not, under any circumstances, stand by while outright lies are published. You are free to say anything that is true -- or even repeat lies others have made, but if you do the latter, you MUST allow me right of refutation. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Quote: "An anonymous poster.." Not true; the original editor was quite properly named as Utinomen (talk), a nom de plume no doubt, but not anonymous. Emeraude (talk) 18:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Conflict of interest, .....and other stuff

I have reported this article, as well as Mr Kemp, on the Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, as well as trying to bring an Admin's attention to Mr Kemp's continued actions. In addition, due to Mr Kemp's above reference to someone as a member of a certain defunct German political party of questionable refute, I posted an attack warning template on his user talk page.Wuhwuzdat (talk) 01:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I have also reported the original biased article, which consisted of nothing but a pack of lies based on a single report from the well-known extremist leftist SPLC, whose "facts" were so utterly wrong that they could not even get my year of birth right.

As for 'calling someone a nazi' -- anyone reading that entry I made could see that reference purely as an example of how, according to these 'rules', anyone could write anything about anybody else, anonymously, and then when that subject objected, his comments are deleted because it is his 'point of view.'

It was in that sense, and that sense alone, that the remark was made, and it is OBVIOUS from the context what was meant. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Once again the entry has been edited by another anonymous user repeating the lies from the SPLC (which itself heavily edited its own article on me after first claiming that I actually live in a room in the National Alliance's chairman's house -- which so was so unbelievable that not even they could continue with such an outrageously hilarious lie) and subjectively accusing me of all sorts of things.

As I said before, if you want to keep this article repeating SPLC lies, then you are under an obligation to allow me the right to refute it. If someone makes up a story about me, I have the right to refute it. Common sense and fair play demand it.

Arthur Kemp (talk) 10:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Whitewashing, removal of sources, etc.

I do not have this page on my watchlist, but I noticed that the attempt I made to reincorporate some of the information from the Southern Poverty Law Center was removed. There was a note about this on WP:RSN to which I responded. I'm fairly certain the version that was reverted is better than the current version, so I'm going to revert back. However, if someone would like to explain exactly why we must remove any and all mentions of SPLC, please be my guest. I will note that the standard for inclusion on Misplaced Pages is verifiability and not truth. It could be that the SPLC is totally lying (I doubt it, but anyway). That doesn't matter to Misplaced Pages as long as it is properly attributed to them and it is clear to the reader that it is their accusation.

ScienceApologist (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The point is not 'removing any reference' to the SPLC, but simply allowing me the chance to refute their subjective, and for the greatest part, invented allegations. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Continuous Removal of Refutations

All I have asked for is the right to equally refute allegations made against me. Please desist from removing these refutations. Arthur Kemp (talk) 18:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Please stop editing the page per WP:COI. Your claim is in the appropriate section, and the claim is well referenced by a wp:rs. The fact you work for the BNP doesn't strengthen your denial. Verbal chat 18:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Once again, you reveal your subjectivity in the matter. As I have said repeatedly, I have not asked for the deletion of the allegations, merely equal space for refutation thereof.

I find it peculiar that you yourself put in my refutation at the bottom of the article, along with the SPLC claims, and then later add the SPLC claims once again, in the introduction, but this time seem intent on leaving out my denial. Why is that? What is your motive? Arthur Kemp (talk) 18:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You can't say "he has denied these allegations" because you haven't done. You must do it outside wikipedia and then cite where you denied them, otehrwise is constitues original thought which is not allwoed on wikipedia.--Patton 18:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

• The fact is, if you continue editing in this manner, you will be blocked. This article isn't meant for a debate on your character. It's meant to be an accurate representation of what reliable sources say about you. SDJ 18:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

AK, you have a COI here, and are going to get into trouble if you persist (however, you are very welcome to continue adding stuff to the talk page). That said, I think I'm on your side for the moment, on two grounds.

1. The SPLC says Arthur Kemp, a South African intelligence official in the era of apartheid, has been trying to resuscitate the neo-Nazi National Alliance in the United States. If we believe the SPLC, why aren't we reporting its claim that AK was an Int Off?
2. Why are people removing the assertion that he has denied the allegations of being a WS? AK *is* a RS for his own opinions, and I think he's made it pretty clear that he does deny these allegations (no? maybe no - AK, could you clarify this please?). I don't even see why this is controversial - just about everyone except out-and-out racists would deny that.

Oh, and note: you haven't *refuted* the allegations: you have *denied* them, a very different thing.

William M. Connolley (talk) 18:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Pat

I have removed all unsourced statements and removed an unreliable source. Arthur Kemp you are to stop editing your own article or you will be blocked. You have already crossed over into edit warring, but I am not going to block as you are a new editor and obviously confused about how Misplaced Pages works. Scarian 18:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this somewhat unnecessary? Its a non-controversial fact, and appears to be a good source for it anyway William M. Connolley (talk) 19:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Although the BNP aren't generally a RS, I think for the name of their web editors we can trust them. I also think the two sentences I added to the lead summarised the article content ok. Verbal chat 19:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure guys, that's fine if you wish to add whatever back in etc. I didn't check who added it, just did a quick sweep over of all the stuff that seemed unreliable etc. Scarian 20:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

"knowing" people who were found guilty

Is the allegation he "knew" people who were found guilty of a crime actually proper in a BLP? Is there a possibility of "guilt by association" inherent in such a claim, no matter how it is cited? Collect (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, your use of the word 'allegation' is itself suspect, but in answer to your question: Yes, it's prefectly proper. Look for other examples - there are countless cases on subjects knowing convicted criminals. Does the article on Kenneth Lay mention that George W. knew him? Is this a violation of BLP policy? Far from "guilt by association" being inherent "no matter how it is cited", it actually depends entirely on how it is cited. Emeraude (talk) 13:19, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You are arguing the reverse of this instance. An article on Lay should mention his legal troubles. In WP, by the way, "allegation" has a specific usage for any stetement which is proffered without proof other than it being written in a :reliable source." And per ArbCom: "Guilt by association 10) Guilt by association is never a sufficient reason to include negative information about third parties in a biography. At a minimum, there should be reliable sources showing a direct relationship between the conduct of the third parties and the conduct of the subject (i.e. a nexus), or that the subject knew or should have known about and could have prevented the conduct of the third parties." . WP:BLP "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. " Results from arbitration are about as close to "law" on WP as one can find. Collect (talk) 13:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You're quite right about my wrong-way-round example. However, I think it is still correct to say, in the light of your reference to WP:BLP that my comment that it depends "entirely on how it is cited" is correct and it is not right to say that such sources may never be used, as was suggested in the first place. Emeraude (talk) 14:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

And as it is currently used, it is improper per ArbCom dicta. Collect (talk) 14:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

March of the Titans

Is this Arthur Kemp the same guy as this Arthur Kemp? If so, surely this should be a prominent feature of the article. Paul B (talk) 17:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Not mentioned on his blog, and not a rare name. Could be, but find a reliable source for any claim about it. Collect (talk) 18:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

That Arthur Kemp is here: . dougweller (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems dispositive of any claim, then. Meanwhile a note about the lede and another editor -- it is supposed to contain a summary of material in the body of the article -- it is not to have unsupported charges not even mentioned in the body of the article. (Not a note to Doug) Collect (talk) 20:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "dispositive of any claim" means, but the person in the photograph linked by dougweller appears to be exactly the same person who appears in other photographs and videos of talks. His prose style is also very similar to the Kemp whose blog is linked. The article states he has published five books. Five books by Arthur Kemp are listed here . March of the Titans is one of them. Paul B (talk) 12:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Lists of books on such sites do not mean the author is the same - only that the name matches (sigh). Seems that the search engine does not keep info to separate people with the same name, so the results are not a source for any such claim. Nor is the search complete. Sorry. Collect (talk) 13:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Your sigh is rather petty and unhelpful, but what is most problematic is the fact that you seem less interested in the truth than in wikilawyering. We should be concerned with identifying the truth here not with trying to evade it. It seems very very likely that this is the same person. We should be about building knowledge not trying to hide it. Are you interested in finding good evidence or not? By the way, the site in question is not a "search engine" it's is an author site, wholly different from searching "Arthur Kemp" on, say, Amazon. Paul B (talk) 14:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I am in favor of verifiable cites. A search engine which searches for name matches is not a "people match" reliable source. And the site you give does searches, and also allows wiki-style entries -- which is what your ref appears to be. I could edit it and say he was a blue transvestite <g> which means it still fails any WP standards. Did you note that you could easily edit his entry? Collect (talk) 14:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why you keep explaining the obvious about what search engines are, as if that were relevant. They are tools for finding information. We judge the relevance of information found in that same way we do with other sources. My very first post made it clear that I was aware of the obvious fact that there is more than one Arthur Kemp in the world. Please stop repeating the obvious. The author page on Good Reads is a personal page. Any author can create one, but it is clear evidence that a person calling himself Arthur Kemp says that all these books are his own. There is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that this Arthur Kemp is the author of March of the Titans. However this page has been gutted by wikilawering. That's why I raised the issue here instead of adding material straght away. I was hoping that other editors might help to build reliable evidence. Judjing by your tendency to use legalese, I assume that you are a member of the legal profession. May I suggest that what we need is rather more an inquisatorial than an adversarial approach? Paul B (talk) 15:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

{ud}A blog, admittedly, but it looks as though they are one and the same . The Guardian makes it clear that our Arthur Kemp is a member of the BNP. and . Searchlight mentions March of the Titans . What else do we need? dougweller (talk) 15:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Find a specific cite for the claim per WP:OR and WP:SYN. So far none has been given. Collect (talk) 16:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Specifically, what claim? dougweller (talk) 16:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

March of the Titans is bizarre. Kemp claims that anyone not British is basically part black since ancient times. Kemp forgets that the Romans for 500 years brought their black slaves to England, he just leaves that out of his book. Kemp is a real nut case. 65.32.128.178 (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The Romans had African troops, but there's no reason to assume that they were slaves, or that they were black. However, black or not, their genetic contribution would have been utterly tiny. This page should not be for refuting March of the Titans, but it should include it. Paul B (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Kemp does not consider it tiny, his book makes a good deal of it in other areas where the Romans were, why not England too. Fair is fair. - And Romans of course had slaves as well as soldiers. 22:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course they had slaves, but slavery was not based on race in Roman culture. The overwhelming majority of slaves were white. Paul B (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

new article tags

The article has been tagged as needing a longer lede, that the article needs third-party sources, that it needs additional verifiable sources, that the article needs expansion, and that a "self-published source" should not be used.

There is some doubt as to whether the person is sufficiently notable for an article in the first place. The lede currently accurately represents the contents of the article in summary fashion, and does not include material which is not in the article. The material in the article is all currently sourced, although the "self-published source" is used only for a denial of an attack. The reference as used makes it clear that Kemp's denial is on his personal website, and is unlikely to confuse any reader.

As for "third party sources" - they abound here compared with many articles about not very notable people. Collect (talk) 20:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Ostara Publications

Only published Kemp's books - well, sells them at least, Lulu self-publishes them. dougweller (talk) 15:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Which is relevant for what reason when we already note the author published them?Collect (talk) 16:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Saying that the author published them is ambiguous, it could just be clumsy wording. There is no reason why we can't be specific about lulu.com (which I've put back in). Ostara seems to be just the name of his site on lulu, it doesn't publish his books. And 5 seems in error. dougweller (talk) 16:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems his website claimed 5 -- it is not a bone of contention. Meanwhile it is against policy to make parenthetical claims about a site being blacklisted as spam. Let's try to make this an honest NPOV article as far as possible. Collect (talk) 16:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There is definitely nothing in policy about my explaining why Misplaced Pages won't let me put the full url in a reference - it is blacklisted by Misplaced Pages, that is not a secret. Please don't accuse me of dishonesty for pointing out why I couldn't include the full url. I've replaced published with self-published to make it clear, and changed five because I can find more than 5 books by him that he is selling. Meanwhile I am waiting for a reply to my question in the section above. dougweller (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

No need to mention the site at all -- but saying it is blacklisted as spam is not NPOV. Note also that WP is not allowed as RS for any WP articles either. Collect (talk) 23:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

avoiding OR

Per WP:OR claims about the book should reflect third party sources. Using the list of chapters to make a claim about the book is SYN and OR. Collect (talk) 00:27, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No it is not. The contents of books can properly be summarised without transgressing OR. Paul B (talk) 08:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

In this case, it is not "summarising" the book. The "race mixed with non-white blood" is not found in the chapter titles or summaries. "By the presence of the Roman Empire" is not supported by the wording on the web-site. As the website is not RS for anything more than (at absolute most) the material on the website, any inferences from it are OR and SYN. Kemp may be despicable, but we can not violate WP policies to hit him harder. I can not actually even prove Kemp has anything to do with the site as it is registered under a Dutch company. Nor have I found any definitive proof that the Arthur Kemp is the only Arthur Kemp from South Africa. Collect (talk) 11:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The website is legitimate as a source for its contents in an article on its author. Regarding its theories, which are legitimately within the category of WP:FRINGE, it is clear policy that such sites can be used to describe the theories they contain. This includes NPOV summaries, which are normal practice. It is found in articles on other fringe authors, including other so-called "white nationalists". There is no actual dispute that this Arthur Kemp is author of March of the Titans, which is repeatedly cited by members of the BNP. This is not about 'hitting' Kemp, but about providing basic information about him which is currently being suppressed. One learns almost nothing from this article. Paul B (talk) 11:27, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

As non RS, it can be cited for what it specifically says at most, not for what one desires to imfer from it. In the case at hand, the site does not say what was imputed to it. I found no sign of it being sold on the BNP site, which means that part was unsupported. There is more than enough here to condemn Kemp's positions without pushing the WP policies. As to OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, that is a remarkably weak argument. This is a BLP, and must conform to that policy. Collect (talk) 11:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, but what is says can be properly summarised. I am not sure what is "imputed to it" that it does not say. You will have to specific. NPOV summarising inevitably means that some complexities of arguments will be lost. This is true of summaries of any text or viewpoint. It is certainly sold by the BNP, but it is not, as far as I know, marketed through its website. I do wish you would not quote policies that have already been shown to be irrelevant. Citing OTHERSTUFF is irrelevant to an explanation of how Misplaced Pages actually works. Paul B (talk) 12:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The material in the claim did not fit what was on the webpage. If you stick to precise quotes, you should be safe. And I would suggest the average reader can darn well figure out what sort of person he is from the material already here. Collect (talk) 12:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Constant Vandalization of Article

This article has become the target of constant vandalization by 66.194.104.5 who is also known to Misplaced Pages users as a disruptive influence http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Alvestrand/POV-history by inserting lines which have nothing to do with the subject and which are merely pushing his own POV on the topic of racial mixing in Classical Rome and Greece. He has now resorted to outright lies in this effort. For example, one of the irrelevant lines he has inserted into this article reads as follows: "Agreeing with Kemp's claims are Afrocentrist works such as Martin Bernal's book Black Athena whose thesis is that Blacks built Ancient Greece." Kemp argues nothing of the sort: in fact he argues that whites built ancient Greece, not blacks. This is obvious from both Bernal and Kemp's books. He is engaging in deliberate distortions and lies, and needs to be prevented from further vandalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.229.242 (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

First, Misplaced Pages does not allow slander of living persons, and Alvestrand never positively identified 66.194.104.5. Second, that contributor simply pointed out that Afrocentrists do indeed have some common ground with Kemp. Both believe there was significant African presence in Europe.

Encyclopedia Britannica Contradicts Kemp

The following is well sourced and must be included by Misplaced Pages rules, where there in the article where Kemp listed the sources that supposedly agree with him: Contradicting Kemp's claims is the Encyclopedia Britannica's entry for Slavery in Ancient Greece, which states that Athens' slaves were of Aegean origin. from Britannica 2005, p.290, vol.27 66.194.104.5 (talk) 13:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably much better suited for an article on the book in itself, rather than in the BLP where I have doubts about the amount of space already devoted to the book. Collect (talk) 13:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

KEMP INSERTED SOURCES AGREEING WITH HIM, SO CONTRARY SOURCES SHOULD NOT BE EXCLUDED. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.104.5 (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

You need an RS for any claims you wish to have in the article. And the claims must be remotely relevant to the BLP. Collect (talk) 21:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Kemp's research not peer reviewed

Added the following, Kemp's research was never published in any peer reviewed scientific journal. It is impossible to disprove a negative and this is necessary for perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.157.50 (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

If you can not find an RS which makes that observation, it can not be used here. See WP:RS and WP:V Collect (talk) 21:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of content

Can someone explain if there's a good reason for this? --Yuma (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it comes down to whether the Intelligence Report, published by the Southern Poverty Law Center, is a reliable source. Given that the Report has won journalism awards, my inclination is yes, although the follow-on question is whether they are neutral. I'm inclined to restore the text (except for the uncited comment at the bottom of the article which was also deleted). —C.Fred (talk) 22:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Be advised that SPLC report on the subject has already undergone several major edits by the SPLC staff, after the original report was exposed as containing a series of outrageous lies, including the laughable allegation that the subject actually lived in a spare room at the National Alliance chairman's house in Ohop (actually the subject lives in the United Kingdom). As a result, in this particular instance, the SPLC report has been shown to be a pack of lies, and the allegations contained therein can not in any way be regarded as accurate. As such, quoting from that report is contrary to Misplaced Pages's BLP policy, and must be rejected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.144.129 (talk) 22:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Who exposed the "outrageous lies" in question? Knowing that would allow us to evaluate the claim and then remove the statements, once disproven. —C.Fred (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The refutation has already been sources in the article itself. Please see the entry under the "criticism" section. For your information, the reference is http://www.arthurkemp.com/?m=200712 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.144.129 (talk) 22:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

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