Talk:Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee

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SWC's supposed approval

Re Zuroff, look at . Apparently, Bäckman wrote a very contorted letter to SWC, got back a form letter condemning Nazism as an ideology, and then performed synthesis to claim in his blog that SWC is supporting him. We'd need either SWC press release or an independent confirmation before claiming SWC is backing Safka regarding the seminar. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

In specific, Paju writes that Zuroff consulted Mark Rõbak regarding the book and Bäckman-Zuroff discussion, and as a result of discovering the deception, will no longer contact with Bäckman. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Considering that Bäckman's misrepresentation of Zuroff's position -- itself obtained by deception, as documented by Imbi Paju in the above-mentioned article -- may bring disrepute to Efraim Zuroff, an experienced hunter of Nazis and a living person, WP:BLP applies. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Bäckman and University of Helsinki

Reportedly, the University of Helsinki has made a statement asserting Bäckman's political views are his own and not the University's: . Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Colchicum's question

Offliner, how did you get here two hours after the article was created? Colchicum (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

External links

As far as I can tell, the Committee's only websites are blogs: Leena Hietanen, Johan Bäckman, collective. Should we link some of them under External links? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

A blog is a blog is a blog... Well, in this case it may not be. Many organizations use blog-platforms, including Wordpress, for their official web-sites. Some even use the free Blogspot site. This does not however make these sites personal weblogs. Maybe next year we will have companies who's only internet presence is in Facebook — or Second Life. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Tundra Tabloid's overview in English

While this is not itself an WP:RS, Tundra Tabloid has a reasonable overview of the events, in English, at . For understandable reasons, most of the news regarding Safka is in Finnish or Estonian, with occasional Russian and Swedish reports of larger activities. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You may want to link to this also: Putin-Jugend in Helsinki. The Finnish-Russian Civic Forum may also be notable in itself. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Is it RS? It looks like a blog. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 04:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not signed, so I guess it represents to "official" position of the organization. The Finnish-Russian Civic Forum can hardly be regarded as "pro-Russian", it is definetly "anti-Putin" and possibly "pro-Chechen". It is headed by Heidi Hautala, the target of Bäckmans earlier "attack-book", Finland washed with Anna Politkovskaya's blood. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. - The article has been reprinted by La Russophobe: see NASHI in Finland

It may be interesting, but it's irrelevant; blogs are generally not considered RS. Besides' it's not like this is 2007: there's a lot of discussion in mainstream media now regarding Putinist Russia's attempts to use propaganda as a tool of foreign policy. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 07:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

"Commitee" is a publicity stunt

This "Committee" is a project of three persons (Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn). This is NOT a real organization. This article is under deletion in Finnish Misplaced Pages and will probably be deleted by 30th March. Background: "Committee" was formed by Bäckman and his blog writings . Bäckman met a couple of same thinking persons (Hietanen, Krohn and later Tammi) and they decided to maximize their media coverage. This "Committee" is nothing more than a publicity stunt. Peltimikko (talk) 19:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. However, we can't discuss the people in their own articles -- none of them is notable enough for that. We used to have an article for Bäckman, and after discussion, it was deleted. The remaining two have even less to their individual names than Bäckman.

Since their collective notability (and quite a bit of news coverage) stems from this publicity stunt, it makes sense to have an article for said stunt -- and since it claims to be an organisation, the most intuitive name for such an article is that organisation's name. However, maybe a better, more descriptive name could be used. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 19:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you User:Peltimikko for uploading most of the images in Commons:Category:Nashi demonstrations. I have difficulty following your logic though. I seems that you either 1) consider the activities of the Committee notable, as you have provided so much media, or 2) you were a participant in the counter-counter demonstrations organized by Suomen Sisu, and would oppose anything the Committee does, making you an involved party. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no Committee. Only a couple of people who need their daily media coverage. I already started article of Johan Bäckman, maybe the rest of the gang will follow later. Peltimikko (talk) 20:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

But it's the same thing. What do you think other committees are?

As for the article on Bäckman, I don't think it will be able to withstand another AFD. Bäckman might have printed another book, but it's not any less SELFPUB this time.

In Estonia, there is an old man who's published four books. He had to self-publish them, because no publisher would take them seriously. Fascinating bloke. His latest book tells all about how physicists got it wrong, and how the perpetuum mobile should really be made. But his speciality is economics; apparently he's the first person ever to discover that money can not be borrowed. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 21:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I almost forgot. Another obsession of his is embezzlement. He's repeatedly claimed that the hyperinflation era of late 1980s meant that commercial banks embezzled the riches that, according to him, Soviet Union invested in Estonia. It seems he had been living very frugally since 1960s and collected hundreds of thousands of roubles to Soviet banks by 1990. I guess everybody here knows what happened to roubles at that time. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 07:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

You're a member of this Committee. Who are you to tell anybody about conflicts of interest? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 19:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

And people had best be quite careful for WP:BLP violations, because I will be watching this page very, very closely. Also, Peltimikko, you realise that Johan Bäckman is totally unsourced? That is unacceptable on a WP:BLP article - that needs to be fixed. --Russavia 06:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Considering your track record, why do you think it is notable that you'll be reading this interesting page? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 06:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well it seems not only does one have to keep an eye on Digwuren for attacking other editors on talk pages, but they also have to keep an eye on his edit summaries too. --Russavia 06:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I present you the Pigcam. The wild hogs and their piglets most often show up around the nightfall. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 07:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The first pigs of tonight have arrived. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 17:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Based on the concerns mentioned above, I'm expressing my opposition to such a split. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I oppose such a split too, the individual members are simply not notable enough. The article is about the committee, not the individuals. Martintg (talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"Neo-stalinist"

The committee has not declared itself "neo-stalinist." The neo-stalinism claim is not a fact, but an opinion of one Estonian journalist. Also, it does not "specialize in justifying stalinism" - this again is only an opionion by an Estonian journalist. Offliner (talk) 10:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Have an alternative secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent and independent of the subject that states otherwise? Martintg (talk) 10:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

If you prefer to research this matter in an original manner, check out the criteria for Neo-Stalinism. They're pretty simple to understand. Then, compare them against the public positions of the Committee.

The experience could be enlightening. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 11:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Basic Misplaced Pages policy requires that you attribute such claims to their source. So please replace "it is a neo-stalinist organization" with "according to Estonian journalist XY, the organization is neo-stalinist." Offliner (talk) 12:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

That's an absurd request. Why "Estonian journalist"? Why not "Blue-eyed baldy"? Why not "Male forgetful news person"? Why not "Whitebread liberal media representative"? All of these classifications violate both WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. As for attribution, we'll always have <ref>. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not an absurd request, it is exactly how attribution is done on WP. I will support Offliner changing it to attribution as required by numerous policies. --Russavia 07:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure some people would just loved to have been able to dismiss Helen Thomas' reporting on Bush as "an old single female journalist writes ...". Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 08:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you got me wrong: I'm not demanding that you mention that the source is Estonian. Just "according to (name of the journalist)" will do. Although it would be nice to know that the source is Estonian, since Estonia is an involved party in this. In a similar manner in the 2008 South Ossetia war article we always mention if the source is Russian, since Russia was an involved party in the war. But what is not acceptable at all is to just state the neo-stalinism claim as a fact like you currently do, because it is not a generally accepted fact. Offliner (talk) 10:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Tammi is not a member

Tammi is not a member of the committee, so please remove his name from the lead. Offliner (talk) 10:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

What is your source for this information? Martintg (talk) 10:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The cited source clearly says that Tammi is "joined" with the Committee. Do you have any contrary source? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 11:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Which source? Could you provide a citation? I haven't seen any indication that he is a member of the committee, just that he "joined" the group of protesters on that day. Offliner (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

What's your source? I'd gladly review it to clean up this misunderstanding. My source is listed in the article. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Tammi is not a member, and the most of the Finnish media didn't even published his anti-Estonian opinions in "Nashi-demonstration" in March 2009 in Helsinki. Tammi joined very late with his two friends to demonstration. News releases of demonstrations were writen/lead by Bäckman (in the name of Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee) and they were signed by Bäckman, Hietanen and Krohn. ( read: MANIFEST OF ANTIFASCISTS IN HELSINKI 23.03.2009) Peltimikko (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I removed some speculations of Tammi. Tammi gave couple of interviews, claiming he was a former KGB agent. Nobody have not even taking these talks seriously. At least, I have not seen any articles where someone has actually investigated Tammi's claims. Tammi just wants his 15 minutes of fame (again). Peltimikko (talk) 20:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says Tammi is a wannabe KGB agent? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 21:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately I did not find any scientific research of Tammi's claims, for or against (see my earlier comments). But I found some articles. The researcher Piia Latvala who studies Finnish Christian Missions in East-Europe in 70s thought that Tammi's story is possible, but she has has not seen Tammi's name in her sources or interviews ( in Finnish). Also, I found that even Tammi's own party comrades did not member him ( in Finnish). There is also deep interview of Tammi in english . Lot of different religions and political parties. Peltimikko (talk) 06:35, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Then, we can't say he is not a former KGB agent. NPOV requires us to say that he claims to be one, but the claim is generally considered unreliable. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 07:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Tammi is not a member of the committee, and as this is an article on the committee, his views are irrelevant here. It may be relevant however to an article relating to himself or his own organisation. --Russavia 14:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Some Russian language sources

Here are some Russian language sources with translations:

Press release

Nochnoy Dozor: Ночной Дозор поддержит антифашистов Финляндии 12.03.2009 (Night Watch will support the anti-fascists in Finland)

...and Estonian

Terijoki'laste vaimne liider kuulutab peatseid provokatsioone
Eesti Ekspress Üheskoos Eesti vastu: antifašist Bäckman ja natsimeelne Teinonen (18.03.2009)
Eesti Ekspress, 4 April 2009: Pekka Erelt: Ajalugu - Eesti-vastase infosõja relv (History - a weapon in Anti-Estonian Information Warfare)

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Sections

I tend to agree, we need sections. There's a whole lot of tightly attributed text, and without subheadings, it's nearly unreadable. But I'm not yet sure of the appropriate way to chop up the original WallOfText. Let's discuss it here. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 10:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

How many Petri Krohns are out there?

One. He has said it himself, and considering the etymologies of the parts of his name, it's credible. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 15:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source which confirms that he really is who he claims to be? Offliner (talk) 15:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

If the real-life Petri Krohn has said in a reliable source media that he is the Misplaced Pages editor User:Petri Krohn, then there is of course no problem. But I agree with Colchicum that crosspage redirects are not good. Offliner (talk) 15:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Estonian nationalists violating Misplaced Pages rules

It is clear that several Estonian nationalists are violating rules while editing this article - these violations have been reported to Misplaced Pages moderators. Interesting that strange accusations about "KGB-links", similars that are represented by dirt articles by notorious KAPO officer Andres Kahar in Estonian press, are repeated in this article. Abdullah Tammi has only himself claimed he was KGB-agent. There is no evidence about this. Probably Tammi made himself PR in this way. Underlining unexistent neo-nazi or KGB link is typical strategy of KAPO and their aids. This is reported to KAPO as well. Be careful! Follow the rules of WIikipedia! --91.152.84.165 (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The claims made by the Estonian writers of this aricle are unbelievable. They claim all "publications" of the committee are published by a former KGB-agent. However, the committee has no publications, and there are obviously no sources for such publications. The source is Estonian yellow nespaper, which is very unreliable. Please find better criticism against this organisation, something else than "stalinism" and "neo-nazi" ties, and "KGB-ties". --91.152.84.165 (talk) 19:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The initial version of this article was simply horrible, and even now the article is nowhere near neutrality. But it seems to be getting better now. I hope this continues. Offliner (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Allegation of neo-stalinismn

Somebody is always returning claim that Safka is neo-stalinist. This has been only once presented in well-known fascist newspaper in Estonia. That is not enough to say the Safka has been labelled as neo-stalinist in the media. If one fascist says so, it is not enough. Please find more sources from "the media" which show Safka is neo-stalinist. Estonian fascist newspapers are not reliable source. --91.195.247.200 (talk) 17:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Why are you against being called "neo-Stalinist", are you ashamed to be associated with Stalin? Perhaps in your heart you really believe Stalin is equal to Hitler and Stalin really did occupy Estonia and the deportations ordered by Stalin were awful crimes, and thus you are ashamed to publicly call yourself "neo-Stalinist", yes? Otherwise you would wear the "neo-Stalinist" tag as a badge of honour and cry from the roof tops: "Yes, we are neo-Stalinist and we are proud of it!" You should be happy and proud a fascist newspaper should call you "neo-Stalinist", but instead you try to hide this away. Why? Martintg (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Given that the claim is only made by a single source, I have removed the category from this article. And Martintg, be aware that WP:BLP applies even on talk page. --Russavia 03:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Manifests and declarations

Would it be accurate to summarise in /* Manifests and declarations */ that most of the Committee's public statements discuss Estonia, its history, and its right to exist as a state? It seems excessive to just quote all the statements. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 12:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

In popular culture

Eesti Ekspress' Christmas special, lampooning events of the year 2008 in , labels Bäckman and Hietanen "Finnish estophile dwarves" and has them sing "We're happy Stalinists". I'm not entirely sure, but I think the song is supposed to use the tune of "Hi ho, hi ho". Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if fair use would allow using one of the cartoons in the article. The Bäckman cartoon is jolly good, the Hietanen cartoon may break WP:BLP. My personal favorite is however the one with the Bäckman hand puppet and the KGB bear, as it shows the true brains behind the committee. (See all three.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:27, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Category:Anti-fascist organizations

The Category:Anti-fascist organizations is problematic in this article, as the Committee's understanding of fascism differs considerably from the common understanding. In such contexts, because category members can not be annotated in MediaWiki, the categorisation policy recommends against using categories, and that lists or naviboxes instead. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is such a concept as self-identification. If they say that they are anti-fascist, and if there are sources which indicate this is the case, then the category is valid, as much as it "is" for neo-stalinist organisations that you are advocating putting it into based upon a single source. --Russavia 14:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Self-identification is a form of WP:SELFPUB. It's only encyclopædically appropriate if it's backed up by reliable source.

For example, the Discovery Institute claims to be a scientific organisation -- but it would be against WP:FRINGE to accept this self-identification. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 14:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Membership

The currently cited source states, and I translate: "The so-called Finnish Antifascist Committee (SAFKA) consists of three members: Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn. They are joined by Abdullah (former Risto) Tammi, leader of the not yet created Finnish Islamic Party, who has publically admitted that for decades, he spied on Finnish religious movements as a KGB informant." Considering that the organisation is not officially registered, it does not have an official roster of membership -- we're stuck with what public sources say about its members. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 13:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

In an old revision there was a mention that Safka has 20 members in the organization. I was wondering did the editor mean that almost 20 people have signed the petition "Support group of Johan Bäckman for the European parliament 2009" . Bäckman's opinions are far from the mainstream, and seem not to attract people. Peltimikko (talk) 19:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of attribution

In his edits yesterday Digwuren (talk · contribs) has removed attribution from several Estonian "neo-stalinist" style claims. (see ) I strongly protest against these edits. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Ofcourse you do. But this is encyclopedia, references are referenced in references section. Suva Чего? 01:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Is my Google biased?

I started this at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2009 April 8#Template:Neo-Stalinism in 21st century but I am expanding it here because the search results are directly releted to this article.

Estonian sources are very usefull indeed! If I go to the Finnish language version of Google (www.google.fi) and search for "Eesti Ekspress" – that is for the newspaper Eesti Ekspress – the first link I get is the this: Eestil on fašistlik apartheidivalitsus. Now does this mean we should include Estonia in the {{Apartheid}} template or in the {{Fascism}} template? Or maybe in both? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The Estonian version of Google (www.google.ee) does a better job. A search for "Eesti Ekspress" returns the home page of the newspaper as the No 1 result. Eestil on fašistlik apartheidivalitsus drops to result number 2. The opinion piece is almost a year old. I guess Estonians must be really mad by now, if they have been seeing this for the whole year, every time they search for their favorite newspaper.

On Google.com we are somewhat shielded from the "neo-Stalinist" propaganda. You have to click More results from www.ekspress.ee to see this as result number 8.

The relationship to this article is of course that the text has been written by two members of the Committee. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

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