Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by J Readings (talk | contribs) at 18:12, 11 May 2009 (→Proposed removal of references to James Valliant and The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics: remove). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Proposal for Deletion of Content Fork Articles

I propose listing these articles for deletion: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Objectivist_metaphysics

• Objectivist metaphysics
• Objectivist epistemology
• Objectivist ethics
• Objectivist politics

Not speedy deletion, as some editors may want to review them for opportunities to merge content with the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article. Karbinski (talk) 11:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Result

Closed without concensus. --Karbinski (talk) 14:46, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Merge Criticisms of Objectivism with Objectivism article

A discussion started here: Talk:Criticisms_of_Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#An_article.2C_without_an_article --Karbinski (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Result

The merge took place. --Karbinski (talk) 11:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I contend that there should not be a page or section dedicated simply to criticism. Such entries should be merged into the relevant sections of the articles they concern. CABlankenship (talk) 03:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Bibliography of work on Objectivism

What to do about this? It was pointed out on the talk page years ago that it contains unsupported appraisals of the quality of the works listed. Okay, it has a template asking for cites, but I am assuming the commentary is the original work of an editor, and not drawn from third party sources. No objection to it as a straightforward list, like other Misplaced Pages biography articles. Surely the commentary has to go?

Also, the title is a problem, partly because of the use of lower case "w" which makes it hard to find. I think the article needs to be called something like Objectivism (Ayn Rand) Bibliography, and the current page redirect there.KD Tries Again (talk) 13:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

I was somewhat confused as to why a Bibliography wasn't just a list --Karbinski (talk) 13:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Normally it would be worth posting on the talk page of the editor responsible asking whether he/she could supply citations, but my experience with this IP editor has been that he/she doesn't engage in discussion.KD Tries Again (talk) 14:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Proposed Changes

Here is what I think needs to be done in order that the article can become a balanced, verifiable resource, and be consistent in approach with other articles of this kind.

1. There is a bibliography of Rand's works at Ayn Rand. This article should list only her works on Objectivism and include a link to the Rand page for a full bibliography. Also, her works should be merged into the main alphabetical list. A separate list of periodicals should follow.

2. The section on writers "influenced" by Objectivism should be deleted, as there are no references and the article has been tagged since December 2007.

3. The critiques which are explicitly about Objectivism should be merged into the main alphabetical list. It's not usual practice at Misplaced Pages, and in fact it's OR, to have editors splitting works into pro- and anti- camps.

4. Same treatment for the works published after her death (why the split?) with the OR commentary removed.

5. The list of "academic" authors who have written on Objectivism has only two references. It seems to be included to make an advocacy point about Rand's recognition by academica - otherwise, why wouldn't the books/articles written simply be included in the main list? Is it suggested that none of the writers in the other lists are academics? I think it needs to go, although the two references given can be merged into the main list. If an editor knows what Michael S. Berliner wrote about Objectivism, then it should be inserted in the main list. A bibliography should be a list of works, not a list of authors claimed to have written on the subject.

6. Finally, there are questions to be raised about some of the works included. For example, Holzer, Henry Mark (2005, McFarland & Co.). Supreme Court Opinions of Clarence Thomas 1991-2006 is actually "about" or "on" Objectivism?

KD Tries Again (talk) 13:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

#1 (no duplication with Ayn Rand#Bibliography)

The bibliography article could be a master list, should it? --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

#2 (zap influenced section)

Questionable relevance, and if the influence is generally not verifiable, prob. should have been zapped long ago. --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

#3 and #4 (sub-lists)

How should the re-structured article be broken down? by AR - books - periodicals / by others - books - periodicals. Hmmm, it sounds NPOV to just have a neutral list, but is it really NPOV to bury the few critiques amongst the rest of them? How about the by others section be sub-sectioned by topic - such as Biographical, Objectivism (about the philosophy - like Objectivism, the Philosophy of Ayn Rand), Influenced (like The Ominous Parallels), Analysis (such as Essays on Ayn Rand's <insert book here> and critiques), ...? --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

#5 (zap list of authors)

Lets do this real soon - clearly not relevant to a list of works. The list of works sorted by author just needs to be re-sorted (and the item entries changed) --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

#6 (quality filter)

There will be "discussion" I'm sure, I would recommend this is left as the ongoing task of editors after this re-structuring effort. --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I largely agree. I don't really mind how the list is sorted, and I don't have strong feelings about the suggestion for 3 and 4, but I'm not sure I have the knowledge to do it. I'll zap 2 and 5 unless someone raises an objection here soon.KD Tries Again (talk) 23:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Cleaned up pretty much. For myself, life is too short to edit the Rand cites into the same list as the other writers.KD Tries Again (talk) 03:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Hard work - someone took out all the critical works? I re-added them. If someone else wants to re-add the online sources, go ahead.KD Tries Again (talk) 04:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Discussion opened for Epistemology article to be blanked-out

Talk:Objectivist_epistemology#Blank-out_and_re-direct_to_section_in_Objectivism_.28Ayn_Rand.29 --Karbinski (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, support.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Result

Was blanked-out and re-directed --Karbinski (talk) 21:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion opened for Ethics article to be blanked-out

Talk:Objectivist_ethics#Blank-out_and_re-direct_to_section_in_Objectivism_.28Ayn_Rand.29 --Karbinski (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Result

Redirected to Objectivism (Ayn Rand). Skomorokh 22:36, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Evasion (Objectivism)

I have proposed the Evasion (Objectivism) article for deletion. Please by all means feel free to decline the proposal if you can find significant treatment of the topic in reliable sources. Thanks, Skomorokh 19:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deployment of Template:Objectivist movement

Objectivist movement
Ayn Rand
Philosophy Objectivism Rational egoism Individualism Capitalism Romantic realism
Organizations Ayn Rand Institute The Atlas Society Nathaniel Branden Institute Objectivist Party Liberal People's Party Libertarianz
Theorists Ayn Rand Ayn Rand Institute Leonard Peikoff Allan Gotthelf Harry Binswanger Tara Smith Andrew Bernstein Yaron Brook John Ridpath Other David Kelley George Reisman Tibor Machan Stephen Hicks Nathaniel Branden Alan Greenspan
LiteratureCapitalism: The Unknown Ideal For the New Intellectual Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology The New Left Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand Philosophy: Who Needs It The Romantic Manifesto The Virtue of Selfishness Objectivist periodicals The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies The Fountainhead Atlas Shrugged
Related topics Objectivism and homosexuality Objectivism and libertarianism Objectivism's rejection of the primitive Randian hero
Philosophy portal
v t e

I have made this navigational template to facilitate browsing between articles on the topic. I propose that it be deployed on pages related to the movement, and that {{Ayn Rand}} be used on pages about Rand or her works. Skomorokh 22:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a useful and very beautiful template. Some things need to be changed (e.g. "Neo-Objectivism" redirects to "Objectivist movement" now), but it's something that's been needed for a long time. I say, go ahead and deploy it. -- eksortso (talk) 05:03, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words and helpful edit. I'll start introducing it tomorrow unless there are objections. Skomorokh 01:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've rolled out the template on a limited number of articles (mostly the longer biographical ones), it may need to be included on more articles but I'll leave that up to editorial discretion. Skomorokh 08:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

James Valliant in strange places...

See here. Many if not most of these are inappropriate. In other places his name needs to be de-wikified. Also, someone should remove his snarky comment from The Passion of Ayn Rand, and his accusations against Rothbard in Libertarianism and Objectivism need to go unless a better supporting source can be found. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I've removed a few, but the book is about the Objectivist movement, and the remaining articles it appears in all pertain to that. What is the problem with the references? Unless I've forgotten, we never established decisively that Valliant's work was unreliable. I trust we're not giving any credence to the unsubstantiated hearsay regarding the identity of IP 160? Skomorokh 08:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, it's a bad idea to remove internal links to James Valliant, even though it's no longer a standalone article. As long as Misplaced Pages has information on a discrete topic, that topic ought to redirect to wherever the information is, so interested readers can find what they're looking for. Skomorokh 08:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure why he's in the list of sources for Patrecia Scott. I also think it's just a helluva thing to charge that Rothbard was making things up about Rand, especially considering how much of a partisan Valliant is. TallNapoleon (talk) 10:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I confess to not having read Valliant's book, so can't comment on partisanship, but it is subtitled The Case Against the Brandens, so we should expect it to contain material on the Rand-Branden affair and fallout, in which Scott apparently played a major role. The charge against Rothbard is not exclusive to Valliant – see this account of the conflict from a source sympathetic to Rothbard – and whatever its merits, at least it's attributed as opinion in the Libertarianism and Objectivism article rather than fact. I'd like to see full citations with page numbers and quotes, but that's probably wishful thinking. It's a recurrent problem across the Rand articles how to deal with criticism and right-of-reply without seeming to take sides. I'm biased towards Rothbard, but I would like to see a rebuttal from his camp to the charges in Libertarianism and Objectivism. Skomorokh 17:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I would be interested to learn if a single editor was responsible for adding all of these Valliant references throughout Misplaced Pages, and if so who. J Readings (talk) 01:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikiblame might be able to help you out there. Skomorokh 01:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting tool. Thanks for sharing. Incidentally, would anyone be surprised to learn that anon IP 160 was responsible for adding Valliant's book to The Passion of Ayn Rand? I'm not. J Readings (talk) 01:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

No worries. I'm going to propose the removal of all references to Valliant here tomorrow, after a conversation at Talk:Objectivist movement#Valliant. Hopefully that will clean up some of the dubious content and put suspicions behind us. Skomorokh 01:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed removal of references to James Valliant and The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics

Following several discussions calling into question the work of James Valliant as a reliable source (e.g. 1, 2, 3), I propose that all references to it be removed from Misplaced Pages until such time as it is shown to satisfy the criteria for reliable sources. If there is consensus to do so, I will begin in one week's time.  Skomorokh  15:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm in favor of removing them. J Readings (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)