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Himariots Origin? Time to ignore it
Too much noise for nothing. Himara is very small compared to the echo and discussions about it. People, simply IGNORE IT. History of every Balkan country contains falsifications, sometimes heavy ones. History books were (yet are) widely used as propaganda tools. Soon or later the scietific writing will arrive in all Balkan countries. Big surprises will come for some (see Serbia with Kosovo). Himara's history will be reviewed too, when Albanian + Greek politicians and historians will be civilized enough to tell things right. Unfortunately they have still long way to do in both countries.
To my personal knowledge and much experiences with Himariots, Himara name is definitely of Greek Origin, but it stays perfectly to Albanian language too. And that is an impression you get always from them (but not in denigrating sense). Himariots are so proud of themselves that this goes to the crazyness level.
Tracking their origin, you will find strong Helenic hints as well as strong Albanian hints. So what is the point what are they ??????? I met Himariots calling themself ancient Greeks, others Albanians, others Albanian-Helenized (so Greeks), others neither Greeks, nor Albanias but simply Himariotes (in these case you get the smallest nation in the world with few thousands people). Let "crazies" do their lifes.
Even, Enver Hoxha ignored to deal with them (because of Himariots strong sense of freedom and proud). For those who really know how powerful was Hoxha with citizens of Albania, they can better understand what I mean. Hoxha was cruel to death with everyone that was not looking him as the God and his Party as surprime religion.
AFwiki (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Even, Enver Hoxha ignored to deal with them (because of Himariots strong sense of freedom and proud)?? lol yeah right.Where were the Nationalist Greeks when Hoxha was in power?--Taulant23 (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Chaones were a Hellenic (Greek) tribe
Nice to mention about the Chaonian head-form. This is a common characteristic of the people of my region -Ioannina and maybe and the nearby area and villages. Glad to hear (by Aristophanes) that it was common in ancient times too.Alexikoua (talk) 21:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
This article has been badly vandalized by Greek nationalists. I myself am from what the ancient region of Chaonia is now called Laberia (specifically from Fterra) and testify that records have been kept at least since the Ottoman Invasions in the 1400's. Chaonia (Albanian Kaonia) is the area that was found by Kaoni (sometime around 8th-6th BC), which means the "bull herder" in ALBANIAN, hence its Bull Head as an ancient emblem. It has no connection whatsoever with Greece. Songs and ballads have been sung to great heroes over the centuries in Albanian Lab music, in what some ancient "Greek" authors call "sheep bleating" and unintelligible. These songs have a memory lifespan of 300-500 years, wich means that today's Albanian Lab culture and people are well connected with the ancient culture and ancestral families of ancient Chaonia.
Chaonians even still look the same from physical descriptions:
Pliny the Younger also mentions the Chaonians in a comment he makes in the context of an Aristophanes play; "This man must be certainly Chaonian because he looks like a mushroom due to his oversized cranium, which is certainly to his advantage because he does not thus need an umbrella to protect himself from glare of the sun".
Now please take a look at the pictures of some current Chaonians (my family).
seitalikaj .tripod. com/ id17. html
the anectode
Does anyone else feel that the anectode is out of place in the middle of the History article? It is not really informative. It may be added as extra info at the end of the page, or something like that.
Interesting info!
I managed to scrounge up some info regarding later Medieval immigration of Himariots into Italy and their background. You can translate this with an online translator pretty well;
Albanesi e Corfioti immigrati a Lecce nei secoli XV-XVII >Dedicato a quanti di noi oggi non sanno, o non vogliono, accogliere come fratelli i fuoriusciti dell'altra sponda che, non più per motivazioni religiose o in nome della libertà, ma soltanto... in cerca di lavoro e per illusione di benessere, affrontano i disagi di una nuova vita. >Il 29 maggio 1453 Maometto II espugna Costantinopoli e da quel giorno si assiste a un rapido succedersi di invasioni turche: nel 1456 cade Atene, nel 1460 la Morea e la Tessaglia. >Ma già nel marzo 1444 s'è costituita in Alessio una lega dei popoli albanesi 1 con a capo il principe cattolico Giorgio Castriota Scanderbeg, allo scopo di frapporre una salda barriera alle conquiste ottomane che in effetti si realizza mediante un'interminabile serie di battaglie, combattute in nome dell'Occidente cristiano contro gli aggressori d'Oriente. >La lotta2, fatta più spesso di guerriglie, di agguati e azioni audaci, dura 25 lunghi anni (1444-68) , proprio fino alla morte del suo eroe, definito dai papi "defensor Fidei"3 e "fortissimus Christi athleta"4. Essa serve a frenare la dirompente espansione dei musulmani e a impedir loro di avventarsi, almeno in quel quarto di secolo, sulla nostra Terra d'Otranto. >Gli Schipetari comunque, con due diverse spedizioni5 (1460-61 e 1461-62), la seconda delle quali personalmente condotta dal Leone d'Albania 6, sono anche in grado di recar soccorso all'amico re Ferdinando I, cui il pretendente Giovanni d'Angiò vuol togliere il trono di Napoli. Questo perché i legami con la dinastia aragonese sono molto forti e già Alfonso I, a sua volta, in più occasioni ha inviato aiuti d'ogni tipo per la difesa contro i Turchi. >Terminata la guerra di Napoli (1463), numerosi Albanesi rimangono7 nel Salento, favoriti dalla benevolenza del re, da privilegi e da esenzioni: l'Albania tarentina , a quanto pare, è la loro prima colonia in Terra d'Otranto. >Successivamente l'improvvisa scomparsa dello Scanderbeg, avvenuta nella veneziana Alessio il 17 gennaio 1468, determina dall'altra sponda un più massiccio esodo diretto in particolare alle coste brindisine, che si intensifica nei decenni seguenti, soprattutto nel 1478-79 alla caduta in mano ottomana di Drivasto, Croja, Alessio e Scutari, ultime piazzeforti veneziane. >Le notizie del generoso trattamento verso i connazionali già dimoranti in Puglia e in Calabria8, la sicurezza dell'ospitalità e l'analogia religiosa costituiscono motivi di grande attrazione per le genti d'Albania costrette alla fuga. Anche l'imperatore Carlo V si prodiga in aiuti verso di loro: così nel 1533 Greco-schipetari di Corone e Modone9 possono stanziarsi intorno a Melfi e nell'isola di Lipari e nel 1535-36 a Lecce e a Brindisi. >Ma l'espatrio prosegue ininterotto ancora per tutto il secolo10. >Già il veneziano papa Paolo II (1464-71), descrivendo l'emigrazione della seconda metà del Quattrocento, osserva11 come sia "lacrimabile inspicere navigium fugentium, ad Italos portus appellere, familias quoque egentes pulsas sedibus suis, passim sedere per littora, manusque in coelum tendentes, lamentationibus suis cuncta implere"... >D'altra parte il suo immediato predecessore, Pio II (1458-64), s'è mostrato disponibile ad accogliere gli eventuali profughi, augurandosi "optare Georgium12 in terris Ecclesiae refugium, si regno pelleretur a Turchis: refugium pulso in agris Ecclesiae non defuturum, si pro religione pugnans ab hoste fidei eiciatur". >Obbligati dunque all'esilio, gli Albanesi trovano sicuro riparo specialmente nelle contrade del Salento già abitate da popolazioni greco-bizantine o colonizzate dai benemeriti monaci basiliani13. >Non si dimentichi, per esempio, che dal cenobio di S. Andrea in insula di Brindisi dipendono molti luoghi da Lecce a Ostuni e dall'Adriatico a Mesagne, in possesso degli arcivescovi brindisini proprio dagli inizi del secolo XIV alla prima metà del XVI14. E di grande richiamo per i fuggitivi dell'altra sponda si rivelano anche le terre dell'abbazia di Cerrate15. >Per di più fra il 1456 e il 1463 la natura e gli uomini si sono accaniti contro la nostra provincia: un terremoto, una pestilenza16 e la guerra di Napoli hanno infatti sconvolto e spopolato casali e città. Così gli Albanesi, i nobili, i soldati e gli agricoltori, specie nel Tarantino, ma pure nel Brindisino e a nord di Lecce, si insediano nei centri abbandonati, ridanno vita alle campagne dei conventi rimaste incolte, si amalgamano con i Greci preesistenti e con i Latini , sebbene talvolta vivano anche come nomadi. >In particolare, per quanto riguarda Lecce, Ferdinando I già nel marzo 1465 concede privilegi e franchigie a chi vi si trasferisca: in questa città difatti gli Epiroti vengono esentati17 dalle tasse ordinarie "quia noviter venerunt a partibus Albaniae, nihil possident"; nel 1500 poi la regia Camera ordina al percettore provinciale che Lecce e altri luoghi non siano molestati18 per le rate del testatico dovute da Albanesi e Greci dimoranti. >La storia degli insediamenti schipetari in Terra d'Otranto può benissimo riassumersi nelle frasi del giureconsulto secentesco G. B. Manerio19: essi, "ob Turcharum invasionem, ad hoc Regnum devenerunt et ab initio non habebant sedem permanentem, sed per diversa loca vagabantur, domos subterraneas et tentoria incolentes... Si habitaverint spatio viginti annorum in loco20, duxerint uxorem, emerint domum et stabilia, tunc quia habent animum permanendi, acquirunt civilitatem in loco, sunt numerandi in Numeratione ordinaria" e, quindi, soggetti al pagamento dei tributi usuali. Si spiega in questo modo perché a metà del Cinquecento non v'è nella nostra piccola penisola paese che non ne registri la presenza. >A questo punto vale la pena passare in rapida rassegna gli stanziamenti nel regno napoletano. Ne troviamo nel Molise, oltre che in Basilicata, Calabria21 e Sicilia22; nel Foggiano e nel Barese23, ma in special modo nel Tarantino, ove si forma la cosiddetta Albania tarentina24 comprendente al principio ben 17 centri a nord-est del capoluogo jonico. >Per venire più vicino a noi, si rilevano nuclei schipetari nelle diocesi di Oria e di Brindisi, soprattutto a Erchie, Cellino, Tuturano e a Brindisi stessa. In quest'ultimo porto o nei suoi dintorni naturalmente sbarcano in continuazione profughi o mercanti, tanto che sin dal 1485, insieme a Greci e a Schiavoni, anche gli Albanesi vengono ammessi al governo della città25. >È ovvio che se ne trovino poi ad Otranto, lo scalo più vicino all'Oriente. >Assai numerosi risultano gli immigrati a Mesagne e nel suo vasto territorio26, favoriti per giunta dal fatto che nel 1515 il paese è dato in feudo27 a un diretto discendente di Scanderbeg, Giovanni Castriota28: a metà del Cinquecento29 Missagna , oltre a famiglie indigene, ne annovera 22, circa 110 abitanti,
- Thanks for this - Babelfish says:
- Albanesi and Corfioti immigrate to you to C#lecce in centuries XV-XVII > Dedicated to how many of we today do not know, or they do not want, to receive like siblings the spillages of the other side that, not more for religious motivations or in name of the freedom, but... in only tries of job and for illusion of well-being, face the uneasiness of one new life. > 29 May 1453 Maometto II storms Costantinopoli and from that day it is assisted to an express to succeed itself of Turkish invasions: in 1456 Atene falls, in the 1460 Morea and the Tessaglia. > But already in March 1444 s' an alloy of Albanian people 1 with to head catholic prince George Castriota Scanderbeg is constituted in Alessio, in order frapporre one knits barrier to the Ottoman conquests that in effects is come true by means of an interminable series of battles, fought in name of the Christian West against the aggressori of East. > the lotta2, more often made than guerrillas, of ambushes and it sets in action audacious, hard 25 long years (1444-68), just until death of its hero, defined from papi "defensor the Fidei"3 and "fortissimus Christi athleta"4. It serves to refrain the shattering expansion of the Muslims and to prevent they to throw, at least in that quarter of century, on our Earth of Otranto. > the Schipetari however, with two various spedizioni5 (1460-61 and 1461-62), the second one di.le which personally lead from the Lion of Albania 6, are also in a position to bringing aid to the friend king Ferdinand I, which the expecting Giovanni d' Angiò wants to remove the throne of Naples. This because the ties with the Aragonese dynasty are many forts and already Alfonso I, in its turn, in more occasions has sended aids of every type for the defense against the Turks. > Finished the war of Naples (1463), numerous Albanians rimangono7 in the Salento, favorites from the good will of the king, privilege and exemptions: Albania tarentina, to how much seems, is their first colony in Earth of Otranto. > Subsequently the unexpected passing of the Scanderbeg, happened in the veneziana Alessio 17 January 1468, determines from the other side a more massive direct exodus in particular to the coasts brindisine, than it is intensified in the following decades, above all in 1478-79 to the fall in Ottoman hand of Drivasto, Croja, Alessio and Scutari, last piazzeforti veneziane. > the news of the generous treatment towards the connazionali already dwelling in Puglia and Calabria8, the emergency of the hospitality and the religious analogy constitutes reasons of great attraction for forced people of Albania to the escape. Also the prodigal emperor Carl V in aids towards of they: therefore in the 1533 Greek-schipetari of Corone and Modone9 they can allocate itself around to Melfi and in the island of Lipari and 1535-36 to C#lecce and to He drinks a toast myself. > But the expatriation still continues ininterotto for all the secolo10. > Already the veneziano Pope Paul II (1464-71), describing the emigration of the second half of the 1400's, osserva11 as he is "lacrimabile to inspicere navigium fugentium, to Italos portus to appellere, familias quoque egentes pulsas sedibus suis, passim to seat for littora, manusque in coelum tendentes, lamentationibus suis cuncta to implere"... > Of other part its immediate predecessore, Devout II (1458-64), s' is shown available to receive the eventual profughi, auguring itself "to opt Georgium12 in terris Ecclesiae refugium, reign pelleretur to Turchis: refugium pulso in agris Ecclesiae not defuturum, for religion pugnans ab hoste fidei eiciatur ". > He obligates to you therefore to the exile, the Albanians find sure shelter especially in the contrade of the Salento already inhabited from populations Greek-bizantine or colonized from the meritorious ones monaci basiliani13. > he does not forget myself, as an example, that from cenobio of S. Andrea in insula of He drinks a toast myself depend many places from C#lecce to Ostuni and the Adriatic to Mesagne, in possession of the archbishops brindisini just from the beginnings of century XIV to the first half of the XVI14. And of great callback for the escaped ones you of the other side the lands of the abbey of Cerrate15 are revealed also. > For more between the 1456 and 1463 nature and the men they have been raged against our province: an earthquake, pestilenza16 and a war of Naples in fact have upset and depopulated country houses and city. Therefore the Albanians, the noble ones, the soldiers and the agriculturists, species in the Tarantino, but also in the Brindisino and to north of C#lecce, insediano in the centers abandon themselves to you, give again life to the campaigns of the remained convents uncultivated, amalgamate themselves with the preesistenti Greeks and the Latins, although sometimes they live also like nomads. > In particular, as far as C#lecce, Ferdinand already in March 1465 grants privileges and exemptions to who are moved to you: in this city indeed the Epiroti comes esentati17 from the ordinary taxes "quia noviter venerunt to partibus Albaniae, nihil possident"; in the 1500 then direction Room it orders to the provincial collector who C#lecce and other places are not molestati18 for the installments of the capitation due from dwelling Albanians and Greeks. > the history of the schipetari takeovers in Earth of Otranto can very well be reassumed in the phrases of giureconsulto the secentesco G. B. Manerio19: they, "ob Turcharum invasionem, ad hoc Regnum devenerunt ET ab initio not habebant sedem permanentem, sed for various loca vagabantur, domos subterraneas tentoria ET incolentes... Habitaverint spatio viginti annorum in loco20, duxerint uxorem, emerint domum ET stabilia, tunc quia habent animum permanendi, acquirunt civilitatem in native place, sunt numerandi in ordinary Numeratione "and, therefore, subjects to the payment of pays usual. It is explained in this way because to half of the 1500's v' it is not in our small peninsula country that of it you do not record the presence. > To this point it is worth the pain passing in fast review the appropriations in the Neapolitan reign. We find some in the Molise, beyond that in Basilicata, Calabria21 and Sicilia22; in the Foggiano and the Barese23, but in special way in the Tarantino, where so-called Albania tarentina24 comprising to the principle is formed very 17 centers to the northeast of the capoluogo jonico. > In order to come more neighbor to we, schipetari nuclei in the dioceses of Oria are found and of It is drunk a toast, above all to Erchie, Cellino, Tuturano and to It is drunk a toast same. In this last port or its outskirtses naturally they disembark in continuation profughi or merchants, a lot that sin from 1485, with to Greeks and Schiavoni, also the Albanians come admitted the government of the città 25. > It is obvious that if of it finds then to Otranto, the port of call more close to the East. > Much numerous they turn out immigrates to it to you to Mesagne and in its immense one territorio26, favorites for reached from the fact that in the 1515 country is given in feudo27 to a directed descendant of Scanderbeg, Giovanni Castriota28: to half of the Cinquecento29 Missagna, beyond to aboriginal families, it numbers 22, approximately 110 inhabitants,
- -- ChrisO 06:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Geo links
Palase redirects to a link about a card game. Instead, Palase is a village of Himare. Also, Ilias is the name of another village of Himare and should not redirect to the Iliad. (unsigned comment by User:Lorenaruci 2006-10-15)
- Thanks for catching this problem. Please see this edit to see how to handle this kind of ambiguity. --Macrakis 17:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Northern Epirus?!
It is clearly a break of the WP:NPOV policy to purposefully consider Himara part of a non-existent region, such as the Greek claim of Northern Epirus. Therefore, I am editing the article accordingly. Himara is located in the Republic of Albania, not in any imaginary region! Please, respect the WP:NPOV.--Arbër 14:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
watch here too.This needs to stop.--Taulant23 (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
POV
"the long standing dream of Himariotes to unite with mother Greece"?What on Earth does that mean?Someone please have the courtesy and stick with neutrality.Amenifus (talk) 09:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
himar shqiptare vdekje greqis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.26.177 (talk) 14:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Chanonians Greek ??
Move to delete .. impartial reference is needed to make such a statement. The references given do not support this statement. --79.97.11.216 (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Himara in Northen Epirus ??
Move to change the statement ... Epirus was a kingdom in antiquity. It is inappropriate to place geographically a modern city/village in a political division such as a kingdom that has not existed for over a millennium.
--79.97.11.216 (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I am appalled at all the mistakes in this article, this is rubish, first of all there is no such thing as "nothern eptrus", 2nd of all the Chaonians were not a greek tribe, nor were to Molissians or Thesprots there are enough ancient greek and roman writing to prove this, 3rd of all the explantion of the name is not correct, Himara was never, ever greek so the name is with illyrian origin, 4th of all, the greek army did not liberate Himara and they barely and very shortly stayed there, and most importantly, throught the article the people are called "himariots" which have been under Albanian control, here is a newsflash THEY ARE ALBANIANS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.252.133.56 (talk) 04:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
North end of Corfu
I think it is not normal to say that Himara is in North end of Corfu. It is like saying that Monaco is in North end of Corsica, or like saying that Barcelona is in the east end of Majorka. I am going to remove it. Do you agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 15:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I am doing it right now.This article about the Albanian city of Himara needs to be cleaned up.--Taulant23 (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Name
We should add: The second theory proposes that the city took its name from the ancient Albanian word used in these area "Hi(j) Marë" - "Eja Marë", which means an invitation extended to a girl or neighbor girl to take part in a family celebration, or to join a group singing acapella or a polyphony. Marë is a well-known Albanian name for a girl in Himara, in southern Albania and up to the northern Albania.--Taulant23 (talk) 20:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Do not delete discussion page Thank you!!!--Taulant23 (talk) 20:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
apparent "Greek presence"
Could someone please point out where in the claimed source it states that 1) Himara is notable for its Greeks and 2) Their presence may date to antiquity. I have removed it until this is clarified. BalkanFever 22:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
It is strange, I don`t think any reference that says that a certain region is "notable" about a minority or a majority, exept of internet forums, or nationalistic websites and books.balkanian (talk) 12:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm, did anyone actually bother to read the ref? "The pocket near Himarë and Poliçan may have always been Greek." How about that? Considering the original inhabitants were the Greek-speaking Chaonians, it shouldn't take too much effort to put 2 and 2 together. Notice that I even kept the use of the qualifier "may", but even that was too much for some people. The Greek community of Himarra IS notable, if only for its distinct history, dialect, and customs, which render it unique. It is unlike any other Greek community anywhere else, and has a long and distinct history. Reading the article now, where every mention of any Greek element has been "cleansed" from the intro, one would be led to think that there is not a single Greek left in Himarra, and that people such as Pyrros Dimas and Vasilis Bolanos are just Self-Hating Albanians. As for the style "Himarra is notable for..." I just borrowed it from the Komotini article. If we can say such a thing about Komotini, but not Himarra, that is clearly a double standard. In any case, the Greek presence in Himarra is sufficiently notable that it does deserve to be mentioned in the intro, one way or another. One mention, that's all I ask. I don't think that's too threatening to Albania's territorial integrity.--Tsourkpk (talk) 14:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I hear some "It is Komotini, why not Himara", or its just a missunderstanding? Who says that "Himara is notalbe for its Greek communitiy". Is he an historian, a journalist, a bodybuilder, or is he just you? Please quote your sources in a more acquariate way.balkanian (talk) 14:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- Do me a favor and read the whole of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, in particular the bits about "Inherent Notability" and "Precedent". WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is bad for deletion debates, but not always an invalid argument. Anyway, let's see what other users think. --Tsourkpk (talk) 14:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
This is not the case of "precedent" and thats becouse wiki`s policies work on another logical base. Komotini may be notable for its minority, but this does not mean that Himara is too. On the other hand I do not understand whats the meaning of "being notable for a population". In my opinion in this case it means that: Komotini has a senseless (crappy) sentence, but Himara does not have to have that sentence.balkanian (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- "The Greek community of Himara is notable" and "Himara is notable for its Greek community" are two completely different things. BalkanFever 09:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I confess that I am responsible for the statement "Komotini is notable for for its Turkish-speaking minority which constitutes 50% of the city's population.(ref)" I was never very happy with that solution but stand by the sentiment: Komotini is an unusual case, well known within Greece for its mixed population and insofar as it is known outside of Greece primarily for the same. I am unsure what exactly is at issue here. Is it that Himarë is notable for Greeks, that the Greeks of Himarë are somehow notable, or that the Greeks are mentioned at all in an article about Albania? The last of these seems to trouble the anonymous ips most and can be easily dismissed. The long-standing Greek community in Himarë and the surrounding villages is well established. Revert them and add sources as necessary. As for questions about notability, why not adopt a solution that omits the word entirely, similar to Tsourkpk's modification to Komotini . I suggest, "Himara is home to a significant Greek community, whose presence may date to antiquity.(ref)" Aramgar (talk) 23:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
That`s a Pov statementAramgar. "Himara is home to a significant Greek community" What about Albanians. Isn`t it home to a significant Albanian community. I think that the reference from Pettifer and Vickers is great. "The town has a mixed Greek- and Albanian-speaking population". balkanian (talk) 08:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
reference
- Pettifer, James (1996). Blue Guide Albania. New York: WW Norton. pp. pp. 183-4. ISBN 0713637854.
{{cite book}}:|pages=has extra text (help) "The town has a mixed Greek- and Albanian-speaking population."
- There need to be references on the actual size of the Greek minority, and Arditbido has provided sources. Tsourkpk has provided what is basically a source for a speculation: the Greeks may have always been there, without telling us how many. It does contain some assumptions on numbers, but they are for a larger area, not just Himara. So how significant is this Greek minority? Maybe we can use the source right above, but that's up to the rest of you. BalkanFever 11:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Any talk about numbers is a non-starter because numbers are impossible to come by, as a result of deliberate Albanian government policy. So much for numbers then. Now, as far as the reference I am providing, it is by a respected academic and 100% reliable. It says "may have always been Greek", so I say "may" as well. I also prefer "notable" over "significant", because the latter implies large numbers, and we do not have those. So I think that should address BFs concern about numbers. Now, including a sentence in the lead about the Greek community in no way negates the Albanian community, nor does it imply that EVERYONE in Himara is Greek. Far from it in fact. For a town like Saranda a sentence to the effect of "The town has a mixed Greek- and Albanian-speaking population" is fine because the Greek community there isn't THAT different. Himara, however, is a special case. The Greek community in Himara has a distinct history, customs, dialect. It has produced famous people, it is unique, and it is therefore notable. The main problem so far is Taulant and his ill-tempered edits that border on vandalism. --Tsourkpk (talk) 13:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Tsourkpk, what you said above is totally an WP:OR. Please, give us a academic article, study or whatever citation that states that the Himara is "notable" for its Greek minority. What are you doing is called original research.balkanian (talk) 13:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
September 2008 (UTC)
ethnic composition & reference #8
Someone is obviously intentionally misreading sources, supporting claims that Himara is mostly Greek with the http://www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm .The source states anything but that, and even if it did, relating that and a possible election outcome is at least incorrect.Unless someone responds I'll have to make the necessary changes myself.Amenifus (talk) 09:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Many impartial international readers believe that the whole article in English about Himara here is completely bias, and with completely unreliable and even slender "sources" and filled with flat lies. This so called article here is nothing else but a low level peace of propaganda of Nazi style. If an impartial reader and/or researcher enters and try to correct information there and write the real truth based on facts, he/she is blocked immediately and his/her corrections/changes reversed. It's like a classical Pinochet/Stalin/Greek Military Junta style dictatorship, monitoring and censuring about this "article". So freedom of speech and democracy are unknown and foreign concepts for the "facilitators/handlers" of this article. This runs against the very principles and spirit of Wikipidia as an open forum for free exchange of information and ideas. Many believe that this piece in English here is run by some kind of Greek Mafia, Greek radical extremists, or even Mafia segments in Greek Asfalia. It appears that the "facilitators/handlers" of this propaganda and anti-Albanian psychological war "article" will understand what freedom of speech and democracy is when these concepts become main stream in Greece itself, and when the 4 million oppressed ethnic Albanians in Greece (living in their territories for 10 thousand years) gain all their human, language, cultural and national rights. Oct. 1, 2008.
Flyhigh McFree
Are you afraid about stating your own opinion and claiming that it is just entirely yours? Let these impartial readers express themselves too, if they believe that's something is wrong (so far they didn't). Why should wikipedia have wiki-adcvocates? And the most tragic they imagine fictional situations? That reminds me on cold war period scenarios, during Albania' s Hoxja regime.--Alexikoua (talk) 12:22, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Article about Himara - a low level propaganda full of slenders and lies
Someone is vandalizing the article repeteatly. The expressions ancient albanian or chaonians are an Illyrian tribe written by the vandalizers are tottaly unhistoric and misleading and off course without sources. I have heard that in Albania during Hodja time, historical books wrote something like that, and tried to name all epirot tribes as Illyrian. Unfortunatelly these books are not forgotten. The albanian wiki states the above false statements too...with sources from the communist era. Please do not add low level propaganda, try to open some books first. Discussions are always open for new topics. The truth might be slightly different than we initially knew.... Alexikoua (talk) 07:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Many impartial international readers believe that the whole article in English about Himara here is completely bias, and with completely unreliable and even slender "sources" and filled with flat lies. This so called article here is nothing else but a low level peace of propaganda of Nazi style. If an impartial reader and/or researcher enters and try to correct information there and write the real truth based on facts, he/she is blocked immediately and his/her corrections/changes reversed. It's like a classical Pinochet/Stalin/Greek Military Junta style dictatorship, monitoring and censuring about this "article". So freedom of speech and democracy are unknown and foreign concepts for the "facilitators/handlers" of this article. This runs against the very principles and spirit of Wikipidia as an open forum for free exchange of information and ideas. Many believe that this piece in English here is run by some kind of Greek Mafia, Greek radical extremists, or even Mafia segments in Greek Asfalia. It appears that the "facilitators/handlers" of this propaganda and anti-Albanian psychological war "article" will understand what freedom of speech and democracy is when these concepts become main stream in Greece itself, and when the 4 million oppressed ethnic Albanians in Greece (living in their territories for 10 thousand years) gain all their human, language, cultural and national rights. Oct. 1, 2008.
Flyhigh McFree
By the way, your statemements are totally unhistoric, with a clear nationalistic view. Supporting that a nation lived somewhere 10 thousand years continuusly, reminds me on Adolf Hitler's 'Mein Kapf' about the supperiority of a nation over the others. If dear (fake signed) user believe the above, why dont read articles about tottalitarian regimes and propaganda? I believe wiki has a nice article about how the Nazist German reggime changed historic books in order to support racist views.Alexikoua (talk) 19:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
4 million? Nice! Are you sure it is not 10 million??? Or perhaps 20?? (Thanks to wikipedia, we also learn some very interesting local gossips of some countries). Interesting,Michael X the White (talk) 07:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
ref#8(again)(Tom J. Winnifrith)
I'm continuing this here.Otherwise it would end up in an edit war, and I lack the patience for that. To my point: a)Winnifrith states that a pocket near Himare might have always been Greek, not the city itself, b)He also states that the number of Greeks has been greatly exaggerated, and c)The demographic section deals with the ethnic composition of the CITY and has nothing to do with past, present or future elections, mayors and political rhetorics.Whoever seems so keen on adding that, can do it on the Party's article, not this one.Amenifus (talk) 08:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- a) Winnifrith means the area around Himara, and this article deals about the general Himara area in addition to Himarra city. So I don't see a problem with that.
- b) He does state that, but he doesn't give any figures for the minority. I am not using Winnifrith to say that Greeks are a majority, or a huge number, but just to show that there ARE at least some. Even if the size is exaggerated, that doesn't mean there are none.
- c)The electoral politics are highly correlated with ethnicity. --Tsourkpk (talk) 14:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
So we agree(at least on some points).I didn't doubt the presence of (at least some)ethnic Greeks in Himara, but you ARE using the source to state that Himara is MOSTLY Greek when it says no such thing.Amenifus (talk) 07:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Oh, and I was actually referring to ref #2 and #7 mostly(which are the same btw).Amenifus (talk) 07:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Municipal Elections and Demographics
a. It is more than obvious that a minority's party popularity is a reliable indicator to show if a minority does really exist there(and in which scale)or not. There are several examples to prove that: in Bulgaria, the Turkish party is popular in regions that are inhabited mostly by Turks, in FYROM happens the same with the Albanian parties.
b. The country hasn't conducted a census based on nationality since the communist regime (1988), so the results of such elections, gives us a nice picture (provided that the elections take place in democratic country and the people are free to choose without terror off course).
c. There is too much supersition about this region, does the term 'minority' mean 'nightmare'in some language ? If there are any examples or arguments oposing this view lets hear. But, the sentence is just 2 lines, and it supports briefly the fact.Mariosbiourd (talk) 18:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Nobody is trying to undermine the Greek minority, you are raising other points and not exactly responding to any.It's the wrong interpretation of the source that is frustrating.It doesn't state anywhere that Himara is mostly Greek;some editor(s) took the liberty of taking a single sentence from Winnifrith's survey ande drawing their own deductions.Again: even if Greeks comprise 100% of the city population(which is practically impossible), there's not one single source pointing to that.The demographics section regards population & ethnic composition info only, not claims like "this party is popular there, hence they all support it, hence they're all Greeks etc".Such data belong in the specific party's own article, and since they don't provide any info on the city's demographics they should be removed.I hope my point is clear, I'm repeating myself for the third time and it's starting to get annoying.Amenifus (talk) 09:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The exact source (no. 8) although it mentions irregularities at the 2000 municipal elections, contradicts the statement on the text. I have to agree that it should be removed, because it leads to confusing results. But the other 2 sources are mentioning about the city's ethnic composition in accordance to the election results:
a.'...mainly ethnic Greek-populated -SE times taken from Albanian News, Focus - 22/01/07
b. ...a Greek minority resides... Human Rights Watch 2001 No.8 source is confusing, if not contradicting, so you are right about that. But there are still arguments to make this connection. Ethnic minotiry parties tend to have high concentration levels among ethnic minority members (as i mentioned above) and vice versa.
The main idea of the paragraph is to give an unclear image about ethnic composition and there are neutral sources that support both points.Mariosbiourd (talk) 23:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Demographics, greeks, albanians of Himara
Stop editing before we resolve this. Alexikoua you claim that the area is home to greek since minority, Pakapshem claims that greeks settled the area on modern times or that they are hellenised Albanians. Personally I believe that those called part of the greek minority today in Himara are hellenised Albanians, so everybody give references, in order to resolve this. But until that do NOT edit anymore as a sign of good faith. Last edit was by Pakapshem, so let's stop there for now. --Sarandioti (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
To understand what Chimariotes are in majority, or every part of them we have to go to byzantine sources and later ones.
1)Cantacuzene named the Himariots "Αλβανοι αυτονομοι νομαδες"(Albanian autonomous nomads) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarandioti (talk • contribs) 18:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
2) Himariots are listed as one of the Albanian tribes. This is from "History of the Greek revolution" in 1844. .And a 2008 version And really in these cases the excvuse "this is outdated" does not "work". This is not an ethnographic or scientific matter. This is a simple case. --Sarandioti (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
3) This is one is a bit strange. This is from a GREEK author in 1845 These are the Molossians or as they are now called Albanians..for the turbulent Molossians and CHimariotes have not changes materially in character. . Well, according this they are ancient inhabitants of the area, but they are Albanians descendants of Molossians, and then we would have to make a major edit in the MOlossians article. Well, I don't know if the molossians-albanians hypothesis is correct but regardless it calls them Albanians , and it comes from a greek author--Sarandioti (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Aleks, why don't you answer to Saradioti's sourced material instead of trolling around and readding information that is unreliable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by I Pakapshem (talk • contribs) 19:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Saradioti, u seem to be an intelligent person. Albanian-Molossians? whats that? timetravel?Alexikoua (talk) 23:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- The sources provided by Sarandioti are completely inappropriate, worthless, and irrelevant. It amazes me the length that nationalists go to try to prove their point. They will claim any scrap of paper from the 19th century is a "source" if they deem it helps their cause. Source is a medieval Byzantine nobleman, sources and are a travelogue by an English nobleman at the Greek war of independence from the 19th century, while source is from 1845! By contrast, the Zhelyazhkova source fully meets WP:RS and unambiguously states that the ethnic Greeks element is predominant in Himara. It meets all the criteria for being a reliable source: It is academic, secondary, current, verifiable, and provides a bibiliography. Same goes for Tom Winnifrith, a professor who specializes in this area. The persistent, obsessive removal of these sources is nothing more than highly tendentious nationalistc disruption. I will therefore restore them, and will seek adminisrative assistance if they are removed. I've had enough of this. --Athenean (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
So you are actually saying that tom Winnifrith a biased researcher, is more reliable than Cantacuzene, who was a Byzantine noblemane!?!? Winnifrith speculates for eras he didnt see with his own, by having as source his own instinct, Cantacuzene was there to characterize what the medieval chimariots were. You are the nationalist claiming all things to be neo-greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarandioti (talk • contribs) 06:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I see you r still continuing the same action in Saranda. Is it so bad to mention that there is a minority there according to rs's? The points you mention r far from npov. Your view about the topic is beyond encyclopedic level and charasteristically you claim:
I am Sarandiot and I can tell you that if you come and raise a greek flag in our town, you will see "how" warm our "welcome" will be.
Sarandiot the Greek name does not question the Albanian sovereingty (borders dont have to change, because there is a minority, or a historical background). About the possible threads about raising Greek flags... oh man, you seem so immature dealing with naming disputesAlexikoua (talk) 06:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I' m not talking about the name of Sarande. Ahtenian removed the official data, and added that "greeks are a significant majority in the town". Does that seem NPOV? I just replied in the same "tone" he continues to act.--Sarandioti (talk) 06:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
it says 'predominantly inhabited by member of the Greek minority'. Whats wrong on that? (You feel still offended?)Alexikoua (talk) 09:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Exactly my point, they are a small minority in Saranda town, not a majority. Saranda elects PDI. PDI is the party of the Chams. Do you really think that would happen if Saranda was a greek majority town? --Sarandioti (talk) 09:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm talking about Himara. Saranda has also a community of minoritare, as they r usually named there. By the way, you seem to be an experienced vandalizer, taking into account your extremist views here: ] Alexikoua (talk) 09:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Athenean who are you to judge what source is worthless, inappropriate and irrelevant? Are you an authority on census data on Himare? Have you ever been to Himare? Have you ever lived in Himare? What's academic about zhelyazhkova? How about Winrith? Who made them experts on the demographics of Himare? Who is the nationalist here? Who made you an expert on Himare? The one who should stop vandalising and pushing his clealry extreme nationalistic POV, is you and Aleks. Neither Himare or Sarande have any greek minority communities, whatsoever. The official recognized greek minority community is situated in the valley of Dropull around 6-7 villages, which for the most part have been emptied after 1990. You can't forcefully claim people are greeks just because they happen to be orthodox and bilingual. It would be just as ridiculous as the Italians claiming there is a sizeable minority of italians in Durres, just because many people from there speak italian. Aleks, Molossian could have been anything but ancient hellene, let alone modern greek.--I Pakapshem (talk) 14:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
You have initiated an arbitration case and you still reverting? I'm sorry but your partner is already blocked for a month. What kind of serious arguments are these? See article on Molossians, and don't start this nationalistic violation on that article too plzAlexikoua (talk)
Protection notice
Because of the extent of recent edit-warring, I've protected this for a week so you can discuss it without tempting yourselves into further warring in this period. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
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