Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Johnski (talk | contribs) at 19:37, 22 December 2005 (→Current Remedies: fairness to both sides). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Current Remedies

This comment is about the current remedies being offer. I'm not sure why it is so difficult to block people, especially given the fact that you have IP addresses. It is true that the pages can be protected. However, once they are unprotected, I guarentee you those associated with DOM will begin to aggressively edit them again.

The remedies that are being suggested are not enough. I believe if the Arbitration Committee doesn't send a clear signal about the behavior of Johnski and his associates, that this will be an ongoing problem. A problem which will end up right back before the Arbitration Committee yet again.

I strongly urge the Arbitration Committee to consider more punitive measures that will better protect Misplaced Pages from being a propaganda tool. Davidpdx 23:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur with Davidpdx's comments above. Johnski is obviously a member of "Melchizedek", which is a criminal gang responsible for defrauding millions of dollars from people around the world over more than a decade. He has clearly co-ordinated the activities of other gang members as well as creating sockpuppets of his own in order to insinuate pro-Melchizedek content and delete anti-Melchizedek content from at least a dozen articles, ranging from Antarctica to Jerusalem to Bokak Atoll, over many months, in a campaign of targeted vandalism that has required massive amounts of effort from many other editors to rectify. Johnski and his associates are not members of the Misplaced Pages community, and their presumed criminal links bring the Misplaced Pages project into disrepute by association. All IPs associated with this gang should, in my opinion be banned from editing all relevant articles for a period of 6 months - and then banned permanently if there is a recurrence of the vandalism. --Centauri 05:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

We cannot block EarthLink Fred Bauder 14:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Fred, I understand now. I guess it is good information to know. In that case, I will be contacting Earthlink personally and giving them an earful as well as referencing this case.

Are all the IP address Earthlink? I was able to do a search on the IP addresses and I believe only a few are Earthlink. I realize sometimes it is difficult to block or ban people that cause problems, so I'm just asking for everything possible to be done that can be. Thanks for listening. Davidpdx 14:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I have read the modifications on the proposal and I think the Semi-Protection is a step in the right direction. I am still going to do my part though by complaining to Earthlink about vandalism coming from their IP addresses. Hopefully, they can be of some assistance as well. Davidpdx 15:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

If we can't block certain IP's then can't the committee simply declare the vandals in this case personas non grata, allowing any reverts made by them to be automatically reverted without reference to the 3 revert rule? This seems to have worked with a group of dedicated editors and admins thwarting Wik and his army of sockpuppets. --Gene_poole 02:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

We can try, but I think this sort of problem is just what semi-protection was designed to handle. Anytime you want to unprotect it and try that will be fine. Fred Bauder 03:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

But can we get arbcom clearance ahead of time that when the page is unsemiprotected changes made against consensus by Johnski et al may be automatically reverted by an admin and result in an automatic block? Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 04:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Currently most of the findings of fact sound like declarations about the new approach to be taken. I'd like to see some findings of fact that actually declare that what Johnski, et al have done is wrong and is not to be done in the future. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 04:06, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jdavidb, certainly I feel that first glance this was a watered down slap on the hand approach by the Arbitration Committee. Although I realize it's not the final decision yet, it seems like it will leave these articles open to vandalism just as much.

I've looked at the semiprotection page and think it's a great idea. The problem is that it is unclear when it will be implemented. Everyone realizes that these things don't happen overnight nor may they happen for a few months. There is always the chance there will be bugs in the system which need to be worked out. Therefore, I see this as a good solution for a long term approach.

Which brings us back to the short term. Once this hearing is over, it is very doubtful that those involved will cease their behavior. I realize that some IPs can't be blocked, but users can be blocked. Which leads us back to Johnski. I am renewing my call for a 6 month ban from Misplaced Pages on him as well as a one year probationary period. If he breaks it by using another IP or user name, then we at least can go to an admin and point to the arbitration committees decision and they can act. I also would like to ask for a finding of fact that Johnski has engaged in strong pov edit waring, especially given this statement, "So you'd rather see a reversion war than deal with a compromise? Cordially,Johnski 08:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)"

In return, I have promised to contact IP providers and make them aware of the situation and get them to launch an investigation. We can either deal with this now, or have a situation where we end up coming back to arbitration wasting everyone's time. I honestly would hate to see that happen. Davidpdx 05:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the issue is this: If we ban the users, they will just create new user accounts. I get the sense that the pro-mel people aren't interested in their reputation among the Misplaced Pages community (whether Wiki is a clique or not is a discussion for another day), only in whether Wiki's articles are promoting their biased agenda. I think semi-protection and allowing reverts without having the 3rr broken will keep the articles in line--especially if users keep the pages on their watchlists. Samboy 10:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Samboy, I agree that semi protection is a good idea. However, as I said we have no idea when that will be implemented. In the mean time, my point is the arbitration decision should be firm not something that says, well he did it, but he's not being held accountable. That's all I ask.

Yes, they may create other accounts, but at the very least it should be pointed out to him that he is in fact wrong and have it on record that he has been admonished and banned. Whether or not he will abide by it is another story, I agree with that. The outcome could also makes it easier to bring him before arbitration again in the future, if necessary. The way I see it, either your going to send a strong clear message "your wrong" or a muttled message that says go ahead and keep reverting. Davidpdx 14:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. An outright 6-month ban on Johnski should be the minimum penalty in this case. He might well try to get around it by registering other accounts, but the important thing is that the committee will have made clear that his actions are wrong, and deserving of punishment. --Gene_poole 02:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• So anyone that tries to edit out bias, mis-quotes, expand controversial articles is a member of the entity that is the subject of the article, and those that join the editing, reverting are too? Why would anyone want to edit articles at Misplaced Pages if he would be subject to such allegations? I request that the arbcom also deal with the issues that I and others have raised. I look forward to a solution that is fair to both sides of this debate.

• Dear Davidpdx, you have quoted me out of context, and in response to my question (which had to do with meditation), you said you would rather see an edit war. I didn't say I wanted to see one, only asked if you did! Sincerely, Johnski 19:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Working Version

After seeing the option given by James about a working version, I happened to search for an article which was under the same requirement. I found Armenian Genocide/Working version which is being used in the same way.

I have many questions about how this works. First, how does the working version get to the protected version? What would prevent the working version that is vandalised getting moved to the protected version. I'm sure these things have been asked before, but I'm curious. Davidpdx 02:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)