Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by El C (talk | contribs) at 06:31, 19 January 2006 (→[]: Glad to help, though I do suspect it'll get increasingly more difficult from here on. Still, *cautiously* optimistic). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

If you have the capacity to tremble with indignation every time that an injustice is committed in the world, then we are comrades. – Che.

Southern Rhodesia draft:

Archived Discussions

Archive Sam Spade apology

1948 Arab-Israeli War

You unprotected the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article, with comment "I hope the protection period proved productive". I am sorry to crush your hope, but the matter is currently under arbitration. Unprotecting the article would be unwise at this time.-- Heptor _talk 03:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

PS: Did you make the fractals yourself? Cool. -- Heptor _talk 03:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi. No, they're from Commons. My hopes are not crushed, nor was the page unprotected yet, I am still waiting to review any objections. Regards, El_C 03:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the page should stay protected for now, at least until we see how things are going in the arb case. Btw, your input on that page would be most appreciated. --Zero 07:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, okay, if you think that's best. Sure, I'll try to figure out what's what soon. Bring on the paranormal investigators! Regards, El_C 07:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Ehm, the reason for this request is mostly that I stayed up a little too late yesterday. If this it bad, you should have seen what I wrote on the ARMA model (fixed it now, of course). -- Heptor _talk 12:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Heh, no, you're good; but I think you got the wrong idea what was meant by "paranormal investigator", which luckily will have no bearing on the accuracy or lack thereof in the investigation of the paranormal. El_C 13:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

OMFG, PPPLEASE DON'T!!!! -- Heptor _talk 18:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly! I mean, what? Regards, El_C 01:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Islam in the United States

Hi El C. There have been responses to unprotection here. Thanks --a.n.o.n.y.m 17:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Regards, El_C 01:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Wishes

Hello, I wish you and your family a prosperous and happy New Year 2006! We shall surely remain actively involved in the Project Misplaced Pages. --Bhadani 17:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Many thanks, Bhadani. Best wishes to you & yours for a joyful as well as productive 2006! Yours, El_C 00:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew wiki

Try the 1929 massacre "טבח חברון" The role of the mufti there is well shown and if you copy thisd into 1929 you will be reverted. So to argue that that Hebrew wiki is "the authorative source" can not be accepted. Zeq 06:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I made no such argument, 'tis a featured article, though. Copy what? I'm not following that at all. El_C 07:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

If you're interested

Been working hard on the Shoshone National Forest article as I promised...have a look...have recently expanded the section discussing glaciers and global warming...I'm almost done covering most I can and I'm probably going to send it off to peer review in a week or so...if you see anything that needs changing, well, don't hesitate!--MONGO 12:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking good! Real good! Well done. Will have a closer look soon. Cordially & sincerely yours, El_C 13:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

k, sorry

I just saw the comment by Pgk that it messes up the main page, didn't realise that - You didn't say *why* you were changing, which would've helped :) --Mistress Selina Kyle 14:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem. I see. Still, when in doubt, please ask (i.e. assume a rational impetus). Thanks again. El_C 14:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Costa Rica

Squeakbox says the Costa Rica statement violates the NPOV i dont think it does because its just a statement people have made to about Costa Rica. XGustaX Could you please help me out buddy? XGustaX

Has the matter been resolved now? Looks like you both violated 3RR. As mentioned earlier, the passage was translated from a print encyclopedia, and I also provided further authoritative sources at that time (on the talk page). El_C 23:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

For last year's words belong to last year's language

And next year's words await another voice.

And to make an end is to make a beginning.

T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"

Happy New Year! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Happy New Year! El_C 23:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC) — Now! El_C 00:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Er...

Tried what? To delete that userbox? -- Миборовский 04:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Tried to indent my signature without all the blank space. El_C 04:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Wording

I apologize for my use of the term "illegal". What I meant was "out of process" (i.e. not following WP:TFD). In hindsight, I agree that the original term was too inflammatory. Firebug 15:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Apology accepted. Thanks. El_C 15:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Userpage

What's the latest change to your userpage supposed to mean? -- Essjay · Talk 15:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Good question! Sadly, I no longer recall much, except that looking at Mia suddenly made me very, very sleepy. Almost as if she was singing to me: ♪Trust in me, just in me, close your eyes and trust in me.♪ Hypnotic! /slips into silent slumber, sails on a silver mist. El_C 15:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Faux-wikiStalinist userbox

Your Che picture and quote give me indigestion inspires me to adopt the revolutionary path, but that userbox goes on the list of funniest wikimoments of all time, and it's now on my userpage and User:Phroziac's userpage, thanks! Babajobu 17:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

For sure! I also applied some friendly censorship to your outrageous counter-revolutionary subversion! El_C 17:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Reproduced

Counter-counter response

Users who disendorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Your lameness knows no bounds. Kitty 12:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   I echo that. Stop following me already! El_C 12:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   Not to mention you stole that template. Kitty 12:29, 1 January 2066 (UTC)

   I have no idea what you're talking about. El_C 12:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   Riiight. It wasn't funny the third time, it's not gonna be funny the sixth time. Idiot. Kitty 12:30, 1 January 2666 (UTC)

   Actually, I laughed. It was funny! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   I laughed, too. It's actually very funny. I particularly like the "and would do it again." LOL Sarah Ewart 14:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   LOLZ-until-heart-attack, that is so funny, OMG thank you El_C, I'm putting it on my userpage!! Babajobu 16:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   You reproduced it? Why do you even bother? Nobody cares. Kitty 12:45, 1 January 2060 (UTC)

   Can you just shut up already. El_C 18:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The Counter Strike

Template:User survived   - By User:Miborovsky --81.77.195.114 15:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

  Users who think this is all playground madness (sign with ~~~~):

1. See, now everyone can see you stole it from Hmib. Idiot. Kitty 16:00, 1 January 2606 (UTC)

   What, I didn't say anything! El_C 16:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

   This is just pathetic at this point. Ugen was right to mock you. And you actually approached him on his talk page! I can't believe what an idiot you are. Kitty 12:45, 1 January 2660 (UTC)

What the heck

What the heck is going on here? I just went to have a little NPA chat with Kitty, only to see Red's note and wonder if I'd missed something. Somebody please tell me what the heck is going on! -- Essjay · Talk 03:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I doubt he'll comment. I think that, at this point, Kitty is concentrating on less NPAing — wish him luck! El_C 16:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Qur'an Image Removal

The image is not suitable to Quran holiness Zanoon 17:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, do not consider any book to be holy, but that aside, why do you find it unsuitable? El_C 17:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hi El C. Happy New Year! Just wanted to point out that banned user:enviroknot is currently editing the Islamist Terrorism article using anon IP 66.69.139.191. Definitely enviroknot; check contribs where he tried to remove the sock tag from an old enviroknot sockpuppet. Thanks. --a.n.o.n.y.m 18:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Happy new year, AE! I'll try to have a look at it soon, but now is not a good time, I'm afraid. El_C 18:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

A familiar problem

I think you've probably had some experiences with User:CJK (I imagine none good). He has, unfortunately, found the page List of dictators that I am one of three or four "maintainers" on. As a start, he started out adding various USA boosterism to talk pages (or more specifically, anti-Communist ranting). That wasn't so bad, being talk pages and all. But unfortunately, it seems to be leading where I thought it would lead: mostly, so far, to moderately bad changes to the Castro entry (chiefly, so far, in removal of citations on the grounds they are not "sufficiently anti-Castro"). But I fear it portend even more obnoxious changes, probably spreading to other items.

I think he'll probably violate 3RR soon (takes one more edit). So maybe that will keep him away on a short-term block. From what I can see of his edit history, such would be very transient relief though. Any advice by chance? These ideological warriors are just so damned frustrating to deal with while editing any pages with vaguely political content. The dictators one, maybe not surprisingly, gets more anti-Castro fanatics than all other destructive edits combined. Moreover, it's not even a dispute about listing Castro, it's just that they seem to feel that the annotation isn't sufficiently long and vitriolic for their tastes (but what they add is never germane to the list inclusion criteria, which is what we annotate). Blech! Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Bletch! indeed. When an encyclopedia project reports the lie about "free elections" in Cuba, I feel the need to resist. How evil of me. CJK 19:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, but I'll have to review this issue later, I need a bit of a reprieve from conflict. Thank you both for your patience. El_C 19:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by 12.41.207.162?

Earlier today you reverted nearly two dozen edits by 12.41.207.162 where the user added links to the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base" web site. At first blush, this appeared to me to be spam, however upon further review, I am not so sure now. While the link is clearly not appropriate for some of the more specific articles such as Babbar Khalsa and National Liberation Front of Tripura, it looks like it could be a good external resource link for more general articles such as Nationalist terrorism, State-sponsored terrorism, etc. --Kralizec! 18:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't reviewed the website closely, in that sense (though I would prefer x terrorism-specific, preferably non-repetitive links) — use your discretion. El_C 18:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

This was gleaned from the MIPT website's "about us" page:

The National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT) is a non-profit organization dedicated to preventing terrorism on U.S. soil or mitigating its effects. MIPT was established after the April 1995 bombing of the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City, and it is funded through the Department of Homeland Security's Office for State and Local Government Coordination and Preparedness (OSLGCP).

The United States Congress directed MIPT to conduct “research into the social and political causes and effects of terrorism” through our automated information systems and to “serve as a national point of contact for antiterrorism information sharing among Federal, State and local preparedness agencies, as well as private and public organizations dealing with these issues.” MIPT firmly believes that the accurate dissemination of knowledge on terrorism is a critical ingredient for combating terrorism. Serving the needs of emergency responders, counterterrorism practitioners, policymakers, and the public, MIPT offers access to a wealth of information resources including its knowledge base initiatives, its website, and its library collection.

While I could be mistaken, this looks to be a good resource for the general purpose terrorism articles. --Kralizec! 18:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm leaning toward singular usage (i.e. Terrorism) at this stage; see my comment above. El_C 18:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

possible request for comment?

I am inclined to let it slide because I think I am dealing with a nut-case. But do you consider this (the last sentence) an anti-Semitic threat? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it certainly seems suggestive of being exactly that. Let me know what happens. Regards, El_C 19:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Widey pages

I have no idea. It seems to do that every few weeks. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:08, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

You must fix that immediately, or terrifyingly harsh penalties will follow! El_C 20:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Is the poem below by Ghoreselkhi, or by Brecht? It sounds like Brecht (meaning: it is good). As far as I can tell the wideying problem on Slim's talk page has NOT been solved. About pages for deletion, would you mind nominating it? I'll second, but I have been such a contentious part of the debaate on the talk page I do not think I am the best person to make the initial proposal, Slrubenstein | Talk 21:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, by comrade Ghoreselkhi! :) Looks solved to me, but maybe I'm running a higehr resolution than you. Anyway, it's listed here. El_C 23:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks X 2 Slrubenstein | Talk 00:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

NP. AfD is kinda complixcated now; took me a while to figure out I need === for the title (not one, not two, not four, nor five). Of course, all I actually had to do is look at any other entry, but no, I had to go through a process of elimination! Yay! El_C 00:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Moderate, Mediate, Whatever

Yeah, I did :-P I am technically moderating regardless, but i'll page move. karmafist 05:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to overtax the subtleties! El_C 05:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

DOM

Thank you, El C for responding! I followed your suggestion and placed my thoughts on the DOM talk page for your consideration. Please let me know if it is concise and your thoughts, too. Sincerely, Johnski 05:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll keep an eye for responses as well as try to study it further soon. Regards, El_C 05:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Sincerely, Johnski 05:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear El C, Have you had time to look at these unresolved issues? Sincerely, Johnski 07:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I havne't; it has been just madness around here. I will try to attend to it hopefuly sometimes this week. Regards, El_C 07:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi again. I have reviewed and responded to your comment. Thanks again. Regards, El_C 12:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear El C, Thank you for taking the time to respond, and I believe I understand some of what you are saying, but don't think my questions may have been clear enough, so I've asked again in different words. Kindly try again to see my points, and find a solution to giving balance and accuracy to the DOM article. Sincerely, Johnski 01:13, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi again. I responded to your comment, which deals specifically with clarity (or lack thereof, rather) of the items. Thanks again. Regards, El_C 01:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

accurancy dispute

Mr. El C,

Perhaps you didn't see it because it is in the middle, but on the DoM talk page I wrote to you the following, and since have written more on the new subject I started yesterday:

Mr. El C, I hope you don't mind me helping with this subject. I would suggest by starting with making the Washington Post article reference accurate.

The current article has it this way,

An article in the Washington Post reported that DoM was "diplomatically recognized" by the Central African Republic, in 1993, but opined that that nation would probably "recognize the State of Denial if it had a letterhead."

The portion in question of the acutal article states:

"You get the feeling that the Central African Republic would recognize the State of Denial if it had a letterhead."

So I suggest our article should state accurately:

An article in the Washington Post reported that DoM was "diplomatically recognized" by the Central African Republic, in 1993, but commented "you get the feeling" that that nation "would recognize the State of Denial if it had a letterhead."

The main point is to change "probably" to what the article actual said, "you get the feeling" so please feel free to use different wording outside the quotes. Best, KAJ 00:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC) KAJ 20:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I answered on the article's talk page. Thanks. Regards, El_C 22:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

My Request for Adminship

Hmm.... El_C 14:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Mh? —Nightstallion (?) 14:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Mh, I'm afraid. El_C 14:34, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to elaborate? —Nightstallion (?) 06:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I realized that I am not prepared to elaborate at this time. I will let you know. Thanks for your interest. Regards, El_C 09:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay then. Take care! —Nightstallion (?) 10:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

about the picture ,,,

Hi , first of all for this anon , I'm not sock puppet for any person and this is big insult , any way , my concern about the picture is in one thing only: the picture is not related to the key topic (it can be suitable to sub topic , any other thing , but as a key topic it is not related at all , that is it ). I'm not against the picture , and zora said that : "the women even didn't touch the picture " actually according to the Islamic faith , there is no single issue if this women was naked and touch quran , touching in our faith ( and in the quran script doesn't mean real touch , but means "understanding" ). and zora said something about picture for the Christ , actually the comparison is not fair at all , since the picture was under topic photography , so if she is going to compare , she should compare holy books key topics to each other,

so , the issue is very simple and is not related to any thing other than it is not suitable at all,

thanks. Mostafa bakry 08:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Mostafa, and thank you for the prompt response. In partial answer to your question, it's an enormous Qur'an, commissioned by the Timur of Iran — it's difficult to argue that it's entirely unrelated. I realize that in terms of the historical impact of the book, this is trivia, but at the same time, it's an encyclopedic piece of history nonetheless. No, it isn't crucial, but it adds positive, if marginal, colour to the article. Since it is, then, fairly marginal, ordinarily, I would'nt care (and I don't, really) if it's dropped from the article — however, there is a more fundamental issue at play here. I am not willing to give in to objections which, seemingly, are rooted in misogynistic reactions to the woman in the picture (which add the human versus enormous Qur'an proportion). I strongly feel that Misplaced Pages should strive toward secular and modern presentation, not subject to the, in this case, sexually ascetic 'whims' of this or that religion, and in general, their peculiarities playing a role in this aforementioned presentation. This, of course, isn't limited to religion, and it's the same thing for an atheist monarchist to write Her Majesty for a queen as it is for a Muslim to write Peace be upon him for Ali. And it dosen't mean disrespect is the order of the day. A much less clad woman would be disrespectful — I'm not in favour of rubbing conservative Muslims' (or Chirstians, Hinduists, Jews, etc.) nose in what offends them, as irrational as I myself may find it. Still, if it's a matter of sleeves, then I don't think Misplaced Pages should 'capitulate' to objections which stem from this tendency. This, because the oppressive laws & customs which (I argue) dehumanize woman to such an extent, in countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, are ones that not only I, myself, consider outrageously discriminatory against women, amounting to a form of fascism, but is also a view shared by the majority of of editors on Misplaced Pages. Editors who are predominatly from secular Western (and to a lesser extent, Former Eastern-block) nations; that is, although most of whom are theists, they at the same time, more-or-less-so follow secularism in a political-legal (I would say libertarian for even greater accuracy, but the word has been so distorted beyond any and all recognition) sense. Thus, I think you are likely to see a lot of opposition to these sort of protests, maybe not so much in this case (then again, maybe so), but for more crucially-related issues and themes, certainly. So what amounts to an edict by an Islamic regime, which is compulsory in those countries, will likely be approached more in the sense of condeming those laws and viewing those regimes as outcasts (which I support) rather than appeasing them —beyond the aforementioned respect accorded to secular theists, agnostists and atheists as per the ascetic-to-hedonism continuum. And while genuine wikipedians will be polite and careful to explain themsleves with utomost precision and all due moderation (those wikipedians are a dying breed, though, it seems), the rational itself, or at least the principle behind the stance, will remain the same (even from Islamophobes who themsleves invariably suffer from other acute forms of chuavinism just as the Islamists do). I am, of course, not suggesting by any of that that you, Mostafa bakry, are an Islamist (meaning, an Islamic fundamentalist), a proponent of Islamic regimes and compulsory laws, and so on, I merely undertook this depiction on account of its overall clarity, dialectically. Clarity which I hope did not get lost in the verbosity. Thanks for reading. Regards, El_C 14:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you for your support of my RfA; I appreciate your confidence. Best wishes for a happy new year, Tom Harrison 13:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure. Same to you. Best, El_C 14:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not

As another user has also tried to shorten Misplaced Pages is not censored for the protection of minors to Misplaced Pages is not censored, I have started a section on the talk page to discuss the proposed change. As you seem to know the history of the section heading, I thought I would alert you to it. -- Dalbury 20:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that was me: I realise now it should probably stay if only because of the quirks of US and US state "obscenity" laws, even though it does refer to that it's not censored for anyone, not just "minors" --Mistress Selina Kyle 21:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice, Dalbury; I will try to review and comment on that page soon. Selina, US and US state obscenity laws, especially those of the State of Florida, are one factor. But a borader issue is the epistemological ambiguity; as in, not censored in terms of what (I censor Holocaust revisionism presented on par with mainstream Holocaust historiography all the time, for example). While I agree that the censored against minors criteria is limited, I am nevertheless of the opinion that a more qualified title(s) is needed to avoid confusion in that sense, as well as curtail potential abuse via wiki and wordlawyering. Hope that makes sense. Regards to you both, El_C 09:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Healing Misplaced Pages

I wonder if there is a way to heal the issues and differences that DCV's arbitration has brought to the foreground? In some ways, this entire affair has been bad for racial relations here at Misplaced Pages. Those who don't like how DCV acts have said that their actions are solely in response to DCV not being "nice" (so to speak). Those who don't like what has happened to DCV (like me) see the affair as being driven by racism and bigotry. The funny thing is that there is overlap between the two sides. A number of those pushing to sanction DCV admit that some of actions against her have been wrong and haven't helped racial issues here (and that some of the users pushing the issue against her are doing so for possibly racist reasons). Almost all of us opposed to the actions against DCV admit that she is abrasive and has violated Misplaced Pages guidelines and should be more civil in her discussions here. What we see, though, is a double-standard at work, with users appearing to gang up against non-minority editors like DCV for being less than civil but not doing the same to white editors. If this subject interest you, I'd encourage you to post you thoughts here on a special talk page I created.--Alabamaboy 21:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree strongly with your sentiments; I will try to review and comment on that page soon. Regards, El_C 09:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Jewish lists and categories

Hello, I have made a compromise proposal at Misplaced Pages talk:Centralized discussion. Regards Arniep 23:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice; I will try to review and comment on it soon. Regards, El_C 09:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Edit Conflict at Ariel Sharon

I accidently reverted some of your (legitimate) edits when trying to revert vandalism at Ariel Sharon -- sorry! GabrielF 20:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I know, it's perfectly fine. :) While you were writing this note, I wrote one on your talk page here. Sorta an edit conflict, too! Best, El_C 20:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

My Request for Adminship

Hey man, thanks for voting in my RfA, I got it! :) If you need anything, just give me a shout. PS. I hope I'm right to put this above rather than below the images ;) - FrancisTyers 00:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure; will do. Best, El_C 03:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Castro

Hopefuly, the article dosen't further degenrate into a propaganda vehicle... It probably will, given the kind of discourse that has been rendered acceptable on Wikpedia following the list of dictators AfC debacle, which voted away NPOV on pages dealing with political figures disliked in the United States. The "list of dictators" article directly inspired the movement to classify Castro as a dictator without attribution in his article. The U.S. perception of the Cuban Revolutions will inevitably dominate Misplaced Pages articles. Still, Comandante is not an articulate counterweight to other POVs. He rarely, if ever, uses the talk pages; and he seems to go out of his way to make provocative edits. 172 03:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I have repeated the same WHO source so many times, to so many people, noted it on the article propper, et cetera, etc., to no avail. Eventually, I just gave up and let TDC et al. and Comandante battle it out. Point is, there are more of them than him, or me, or you. El_C 03:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that I going to be regarded as further to the 'left' than most Misplaced Pages editors. Ironically, they have little idea that throughout much of Latin America I would probably be pigeonholed on the 'center' or 'center-right.' Similarly, for example, if Fernando Henrique Cardoso started to edit the English Misplaced Pages's articles on Marxism, many editors here would undoubtably characterize him as a 'far left' and 'pro-Communist,' though he is now almost universally regarded as a neoliberal in Brazil. Still, editors familiar with other world views have no choice but to accept the fact that the English Wikipeidia is as deeply anchored in the cultural Anglosphere as any website. The WHO source is probably never going to be palatable ideologically in the Castro article here on en.wikipedia. Still, you do have some room to maneuver in shaping the content of articles on this topic, despite the inevitable political climate in a website dominated by users from the United States. It is an improvement, after all, if an article goes from disseminating disinformation to being at worst uninformative. In other words, if you cannot add verifiable claims because of the political reaction, you can at least try to remove the unverifiable claims of other users. 172 06:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Very little room to maneuver; free, well-sourced speech so long as it's brief and inconsequential. El_C 06:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Regrettably. Still, brief and inconsequential content is preferable to overt disinformation. 172 06:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. We'll see how long I can keep it up. Not that I'm doing much, to begin with. El_C 06:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

er...me again. What is the WHO source (yes I followed the link, I presume you mean a specific report somewhere)? There are obviously plenty of options from AI as well. Wikibofh_(talk) 03:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, welcome! Please refer to Implied Causation, literacy issue again (archive 6). El_C 04:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you better start with my comment (noting the WHO source) @"Great" healthcare and literacy increases (my comment is 2nd). El_C 04:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

See them. Not convinced, but need to look further (sleep required). In particular I wonder about the reliablity of WHO numbers when they are probably reported by the government. The argument is more convincing on the face of it than numbers provided on voter turnout however, where editors espouse high voter turnout shows better democracy, ignoring that the opposite is actually true. Wikibofh_(talk) 04:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

In other words, the WHO can be fooled, again. I see no conclusive reason to doubt their findings. El_C 04:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• Yes. The "could" be fooled, but I have no evidence of that, having done no research on it.  :) I'm an eternal sceptic and believe "trust but verify". Wikibofh_(talk) 14:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

From the nameless

Rfa thanks

You did it; even though you suck at the internet! Congrats! Kitty 11:ɸ5, 7 January 2006 (UTC

My RfA

Hi, I just want to say thanks for supporting me on my request for adminship! It passed by a 58/3/0 margin, so I am now an administrator. If you need me to help you out, or you find that I'm doing anything wrong, please don't hesitate to contact me. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 19:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure; in all due lameness, please look into getting a user name — both you and AE! El_C 11:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

And my RfA, too! Thanky Thanky to El_C!

Oh, God, every time I'm in your user space, with the pictures of Che and now the revolutionary poet in mid-oratory, my head starts to spin and I'm sure I'll pass out...but I wont let that stop me from thanking you for your very kind support of my RfA! I'm now an admin, and if there is any way at all that I can be of service, or if there is anything I do that you have questions or concerns about, please let me know! Meanwhile, your faux-wikiStalinist userbox has spread like a meme...it's on numerous userpages! Thanks again for the laughathon that it produced the first time I saw it amidst all the chaos over l'affaire userboxen! Babajobu 15:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm regreting it already! Need more revolutionary symbols to finish the job, I reckon.... Erm, I mean, hope to have some drinks (& tuna) in a reeducation camp near you some day, Babajobu! that userboxen rebelion was very, very stupid, but I'll forgive you, I guess... This time! Kitty 17:4ʒ, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Obsessionality

Definitely exists. Used by psychiatrists a lot. I look forward to seeing a proliferation of it, even an obsessionality about it, in your future posts. SlimVirgin 21:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Will do! Obsessionatively yours!, El_C 21:19, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Note for you on snuh. About posting above the pictures: it means we can't use the tab at the top of your page, which always posts at the end. I think that's why you keep finding posts there. It's easier for lazy people, of which I am one. SlimVirgin 01:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so how do I fix that without being an idiot (or less of an idiot, at least) ? I command you! El_C 14:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Well hello there!

It's been some while, has it not?

What's been going on, El_C? How've you been? Heard you left for a brief spell before being lured back by a certain someone (King Henry in the snow before Canossa, maybe?). Drop me a line, we'll talk. Wally 21:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Wally! It has been too long — good to have you back! I've been alight, nothing too new or exciting to report (though perhaps my alterfeline, Kitty, would wish to expand). I've taken a few breaks here and there, but haven't actually left. Currently engaged in providing updates and attempting to restore some sanity at Ariel Sharon. Looking forward to having you around! Best regards, El_C 21:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

F**k

Hola Jefe! I was defending this place Vs market place terminology but found this place as being a jungle. Please, I need your advice and comment in this situation: here -- Szvest 23:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Now he finds out; cute. :) Anyway, I'll send him over. Kitty 23:3ξ, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

lol, Kitty rocks.. I think you owe El C drug stho. :) --Mistress Selina Kyle 23:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

As the old saying goes, flattery will get you everywhere! Here's a poem I wrote whilst licking:

tuna is good, catnip is great; my owner is an idiot. /bows Kitty 00:0ʈ, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Have you reached any comment, guys? - Szvest 01:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not entirely clear what is meant by that. El_C 01:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

El C! I thought you kept the Kitty as your Guardian! I was not aware of the tiger you got (not a kitten). I was just asking el Jefe about their opinion. Cheers -- Szvest 01:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, he's napping. He's a guardian who sleeps 16 hrs a day! El_C 01:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Jefe! I fear the kitten would turn out to belong to Category:Felines instead of Category:Murder victims. Cheers -- Szvest 02:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's hope! What? El_C 02:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Lol! I'm confused myself now! Ok, let's hope Einstein is wrong! No, I support him! But well, He was just like us. Cheers -- Szvest 02:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Free drugs, again! El_C 02:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I told ya! Ya told meah! ;) Hey, hey! Robert Deniro. --

High school

Please don't stalk me. That's creapy.--Muchosucko 01:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Who are you? El_C 01:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

No seriously, let's just forget about it alright? I'm sorry for whatever comment I made. Please, no games. Just chill alright?--Muchosucko 01:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? You were nothing but a fleeting memory until now, really. El_C 01:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Foundation Wiki

Noticed your changes to your userpage, and I'm wondering how you got an account on the Foundation Wiki...Feel free to leave a note on my Meta talk or email if you don't want the secret getting out here. ;-) -- Essjay · Talk 08:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

does your kitten accept bribes for cat espionage (~wants an account too!~) ? --Mistress Selina Kyle 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, Kitty only espionigezeses in the interest of the revolution. :) But everything is open to read, and it's far from as controversial as it may sound. ;) Anyway, I thought I might as well make myself accessible. But I should stress that I did not approach it as secretive or anything, teehee; such has not been my experience. Essentially, I saw some errors in Hebrew on the foundation fundraising thingy, wanted to edit it, got directed to the meta requesty page, created an account on meta where I can also help with tranlsations, too (I had one, but I forgot my password, much like with Kitty's account; I've since learned my lesson), placed a request copying the format, and was approved by Danny who I've known for a long while now (he's one of the good guys; and a good translator, too). Anyway, let's say Danny translates this or that but he has to leave town for a few days, and the thing is only 3/4 finished and hasn't been proofread, now he has one more person he can seek direct assistance from (without account-holding intermediaries, and so on). Sorry to report it isn't more sensational than that! :D El_C 14:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Justforasecond

Okay. Grace Note 02:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Alright. :) El_C 02:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Missing the point

Of course my comments were not aimed at getting her to stay- she's already decided to leave! Isn't the next best thing to simply end the conflict? I find it a bit curious that she's apparently not interested in either ending the conflict, or in working on the encyclopedia. I wonder what that leaves? Friday (talk) 00:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Her arbitration case. El_C 00:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

hehe

heehee. you're funny, mr. el c :) -Justforasecond 03:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't underestimate the pathos, Mister Justforasecond. El_C 03:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

deeceevoice's departure

If you're interested in speculating about deeceevoice's departure. -- Jim Apple 05:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

What the...?! Shameful provocation. El_C 13:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Turin

El C, can you please explain me why you have reverted my edits in the article Turin. As long as there is a Romanian version of the website, why should it not be listed. I'm not curious about your thoughts but Misplaced Pages is NPOV, isn't it? So, spare me. You can find the romanian version here. --Danutz

That the website isn't in English, so our readership here on .en are unlikely to find much use for it (as opposed to readers on the .ro). El_C 14:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see. But why do you remove Romanian. I see Spanish, French listed there. I understand you removed the external link (that was just as a proof) but why also the language? I explained all in the discussion page. :) --Danutz

I only remove what I am immediately privy to; feel free to remove any other non-English links. El_C 16:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Paris Page

Hey, thanks for fixing the vandlism on the Paris page - and good to see you around. As you may well have seen things are still far from sparkly there, but (on your advice) leaving that aside, I have started a portal, project and a few articles. The Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Paris Streets will be the most relaxing and fun of the lot. In short, I'm getting used to things.

Thanks, and Take care!

THEPROMENADER 15:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, Josef! Good to see you still at it and making good progress. Don't hesitate to drop by to say hi from time to time. :) Best, El_C 15:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your greeting, and the same to you. I'm not sure that I'm glad to be back, exactly, but if I didn't take the plunge now, I'd probably have stayed away permanently. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I hear that. This place definitely ain't getting less strange, to say the least. Regardless, it will be good having you around. Best, El_C 17:44, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Confusion

Success at last. -Will Beback 19:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I am easily confused, mind you... GJ, though! El_C 19:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Benjamin Franklin vandals

Would you also consider protecting Benjamin Franklin using {{sprotected}}? - CobaltBlueTony 19:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I've semiprotected it. --BorgQueen 19:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! :) - CobaltBlueTony 20:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

And I didn't even do anything! ;) El_C 02:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Link removal

What is external links for? To the casual user to read? Or something related to the subject, most notably governamental websites, etc? One was Guinea's news agency. Information for the article should be in the article and not in the external links that can be in any language with the proper warning that it is in another language, that occurs in every wikipedia, even in EN. So I'll add the links again, because those in the article present an English perspective (often with lack of knowledge) and unrelated to the country. The given links are websites made by nationals, which I think it would be more interresting to the interested reader. There are language schools everywhere where one can learn another language. Somebody who is interested in the country, may already speak the language. People use wikipedia very differently from the use you give to it. -Pedro 20:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Pedro. The guideline is at WP:EL (WP:WEB is in the works). The problem I have is that our casual (meaning, average) reader is not going to be able to read Portuguese. And those who do, are likely to check out the article on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. I can appreciate that there is a dire shortage of coverage on Guinea-Bissau, so I might be willing to reconsider what I'm otherwise more strict on (let's say, versus Brazil). Still, I would like to hear your thoughts on my rational regarding non-English links. Best, El_C 02:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

RFA Campaigning

Since campaigning for or against RFA's is frowned upon, I'd say you acted correctly. It is spamming when a person doesn't even bother to see if the people have voted or not (Dunc, for example, had already voted). Guettarda 07:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm relieved to find you feel I acted correctly. Regards, El_C 07:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I did check, then as I stated in my Talk page I misread part of the list. And there is no "El C" who voted in the new RFA, so I was at that point on the correct list. (SEWilco 08:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC))

That is correct, I'm not going to participate in RfAs in the foreseeable future. Regards, El_C 08:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Upsetting me

You didn't upset me. I understand what you were doing. I was simply asking you not to do it to my page any more. No hurt, no upset. Grace Note 08:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Good, I'm glad. Will not do. Thanks for rearticulating that. Regards, El_C 08:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have reverted my talk page too. I only read it sometimes, and I appreciate people letting me know what is happening. You could have added to it rather than subtract somebody else's message. Please don't do it again. --Audiovideo 13:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, I will refrain from editing your talk page in the future. Sorry, if I upset you. Regards, El_C 08:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Refrain from reverting my talk page in future. Dmn 21:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, I will refrain from editing your talk page in the future. El_C 08:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Help

Hey El C,

Would you please be able to revert all of 61.247.238.182 (talk · contribs)'s edits? One of the worst cases of spamming I have ever seen. --Khoikhoi 02:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. Regards, El_C 04:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. --Khoikhoi 05:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems that he/she is still doing it. I've given them 1 final warning, but I can't block them because I'm not an admin. If they insert another spam link, I'll notify you. --Khoikhoi 08:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I know, I just reverted Rajasthan. Thanks, that saves me from doing that. El_C 08:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

User added links to Ranthambore and Resort. I gave him/her a final warning, and they did not follow up to it. I suggest that they be given a 24 hour block. --Khoikhoi 00:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

McKhan

You wouldn happen to be on IRC so we can discuss this would you? NSLE _(T+C) 07:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, no. I seem to have been blocked from there due to lameness. El_C 07:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

It'd be possible to talk in a different channel, like the Esperanza one or something, still, surely. NSLE _(T+C) 07:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, okay. What's the channel? El_C 07:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we'll use #wikisocial for today. NSLE _(T+C) 07:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm there. El_C 07:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

DCV

Thanks for injecting sanity (again). Guettarda 14:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"Sanity", I've heard of it. El_C 14:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The more I look, the more I am convinced that you are probably the only sane one in this place. Guettarda 18:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

♪ I'm all things, to all men, all of the women, all the children... ♫ Down with imperialism! Long live armed struggle! El_C 22:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

anon user ip: 210.23.154.96

El C, please accept my apologies for adding that external link yesterday without discussing it first. I am new to Misplaced Pages. I thought the link would be good to add as it gives another view of Tantra. I certainly don't wish any bad feeling to exist towards that website due to my actions. (That spiritual school offers free courses on the web and in study centres and is a not-for-profit group.) Is it possible perhaps to include a paragraph in the article about the use of the so-called "white tantra" or "alchemy" in gnosticism? And the same again on the Alchemy article? Sorry again. :) Regards, David, 13/01/06.

Hi, David. No apology needed. I removed the link because it mostly consisted of a page hailing the benefits of eroticism and sexuality (no argument there) but with little explanation on how this relates to the subject matter, except in refering the reader elsewhere. By all means, feel free to add content to these articles, though I encourage you the employ the talk page first so as to get a feel for the consensus. Regards, El_C 10:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding El C. That webpage relates to the Tantra article in that "Alchemy" is a term meaning "Tantra" or in particular "White Tantra" in some mystical schools hence I added the link to both the alchemy article and the tantra article. The webpage I linked to is just a general introduction to that gnostic schools view of tantra. In light of your understanding can you remove where it shows my ip address is blocked on the history page only that it reflects badly on my ip in the history page. I shall not post anything on these two articles without consenus first. Kind Regards, David, 16/01/06.

It doesn't say your ip is blocked, nor is it, so don't worry about it (material is only removed from the history in the most extreme cases). Regards, El_C 02:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I was confused only because this is what I see on the history page for where you did the revert: "04:41, 12 January 2006 El C m (Reverted edits by 210.23.154.96 (talk | block) to last version by 80.135.2.91)". "block" is in blue on the screen and holding the mouse cursor over it makes a little dialog box pop up which says "Special:Blockip/210.23.154.96". Sorry to take up your time with this. David 19/01/06.

your message

hey El C, well I based the changes on the article on Germany and Greece. Since the name of the article is the name itself (and you can see, for example I did not change anything on Republic of Ireland, my understanding is to start the article first with the actual name of the article, followed by the official name. I think at least for European countries this can be safely used, or for Venezuela for example. The article talks about the country in general, of which the official name (reflecting the present form of government) is a part of, is my understanding at least. I hope you don't disagree with all the changes.... :-( Gryffindor 17:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Do not despair. But as you can see, someone has already reverted in Israel. I tend to agree. Why don't you submitt a proposal @ Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries? Regards, El_C 18:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Robert I arbitration

If you wish to make a statement at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Robert I, please do so. I have started working on it. Fred Bauder 18:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate the notice. El_C 18:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Investigations

Does this mean the first historic case to be undertaken by this? And if it does, is the investigation not in danger of being thrown out for insufficient insufferability in the manner in which it was suggested? And can we watch?

And while I'm at it, is the Syrian Arab Republic a country, or merely a state, while Syria is a country? Or is me wondering about this merely the result of me having grown up in a country that didn't know whether it was a country or not (or possibly two countries) but was fairly sure that it was in a state?

Yours, not very clearly, Palmiro | Talk 21:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

That's right, I forgot about my stupid association! Finally, something productive for it's idiot president to do. In answer to your question, The State is a state (of...), though it may not be a country, possibly a county, therefore, much like Australia, Syria is a Republic. I hope this has been enlightening for you. Our beloved president sends you his best regards (i.e. napping). Yours, El_C 22:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Clearing up misunderstanding

In response to your comment here, I thought I should clear up a misunderstanding. That was totally an accident -- I fell asleep on my touchpad and hit the block button with my nose. Turned out a diff from the "Misplaced Pages is communism" vandal was up on my screen at the time, and well... Anyway, I've been taking credit for that far too long, and I am glad to get it off of my chest. Thanks. Jkelly 00:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I did the same thing with the same vandal, except my mouse was hovered over the unblock button. What a strange coincidence! El_C 00:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

RFC/KM

You commented on Kelly Martin's second RfC. it is up for archival. you may vote at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Kelly_Martin#Archiving_this_RfC. CastAStone| 03:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Defending the Motherland (or whatnot)

Comrade Compatriot,

You might be interested in a deluge of one-setence stubs about Chinese prisons that mostly cannot be verified, coming from an editor banned on 4 wikis and a track record of making stuff up. See whole discussion or the AfD page. Please? -- Миборовский 06:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

He says to tell you: "keep offending the Motherland, Hmib!" I'm not entirely am sure what that means, or confident as to his sanity... Regards, Kitty 14:50, 14 January 2°°6 (UTC)

RFA thanks

Thanks for supporting me in my RFA. --TimPope 14:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure. El_C 02:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Haukurth(2)

With great trepidation I have accepted another nomination for adminship. - Haukur 20:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

See this. El_C 02:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Greece

I rv'd your last change with a comment that was more dismissive that it should have been; I was POd about something else and I was needlessly harsh; unfortunately, change comments, unlike edits, cannot be retracted. Please accept my apologies.

That said, one should use Wiki formatting instead of HTML whenever possible (See Help:Editing and elsewhere). And the two-line format looks better and is more usable (and more standard) than putting everything in one line.

Cheers, Sysin 21:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but it dosen't look better to me. Seems like redundant space (and slightly more scrolling) for naught. I'm not sure it's correct to enforce a certain style just because the templates aren't written to sit on one line by default. Anyway, I think it looks better on one line. El_C 22:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Dominion of Melchizedek

KAJ/Johnski is up to his old tricks again, attempting to change content on the above article to put a positive spin on Melchizedek. I've just reverted his latest attempt, but if you could keep an eye on it as well it would be appreciated. --Gene_poole 00:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I offered him to cite the Post passage in full, but it was broken in his addition... My challenges as per sources are on the talk page. Regards, El_C 00:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Mr. El C: Sorry for breaking it, but now have given it in full as you offered, and even kept Gene's opening, "opined". Hope this settles that issue. On the other issues have quoted with links to sources, CBS, Forbes and Context magazine articles and tried to make my other points clearer. Hopefully that will bring us closer to settling the other issues. Best KAJ 01:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, KAJ. I'll try to study these soon. Thanks for taking the time. Regards, El_C 01:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Mr. El C: Thank you very much for helping to solve the problem between myself and Gene on the issue of the Washington Post quote. I hope this marks a new beginning of cooperation. Thanks for taking the time to help also with the pending issues. Best, KAJ 06:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Glad to help, KAJ. Though I do suspect it'll get increasingly more difficult from here on. Still, cautiously optimistic. Regards, El_C 06:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

poetry

Why should poetry not be a slogan?

Why should poetry not be

biased

when life is not at all itself

For life's sake,

I expect a poem to be

a slogan

a dagger

a fist

and a bullet if necessary

---

---