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Requests for clarification

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Request for clarification: WP:ARBR&I/scope of topic ban of Mathsci

Initiated by Mathsci (talk) at 03:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Statement by Mathsci

At the close of the case WP:ARBR&I, I readily agreed with arbritators on a topic ban by mutual consent, even after an arbitrator had suggested a shorter topic ban, which would have been over by now. I agreed to this because I no longer had any interest in editing content in the area of race and intelligence, broadly construed, and because, as I said during the case, my presence editing articles was wholly dispensable and completely desirable. My compliance and agreement with almost every point made by arbitrators significantly shortened the closing of arbitration. My topic ban was carefully formulated and did not apply to process pages and noticeboards.

During and after the close of arbitration, Captain Occam, joined by his girlfriend Ferahgo the Assassin, have militated to have sanctions imposed on other editors, notably WeijiBaikeBianji (talk · contribs) (and to a lesser extent Muntuwandi (talk · contribs)). Third parties have appeared on wikipedia in the past month or so, since a topic ban was imposed on Ferahgo the Assassin, whose sole purpose so far has been wikihounding and harassing WeijiBaikeBianji. I have communicated off-wiki with arbitrators about some of these issues, in particular Shell Kinney and Newyorkbrad, which are violations of the topic bans of Captain Occam and Ferhago the Assassin. On specific occasions it has been suggested that I contribute to arbitration noticeboards. I have additionally been asked asked whether information I have provided can be passed on to other arbitrators.

I have no views on the editing of WeijiBaikeBianji. I made a brief statement containing only one very general piece of constructive advice on methods of editing and adding sources that would apply to any editor. Since the close of arbitration, Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin's activities in militating have not declined and the reports I recently made to WP:AE reflect this renewed activity. This has resulted in a logged warning for Woodsrock (talk · contribs), for personal attacks, and a block for Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs) for tracking his edits. In my perception both incidents formed part of a campaign of harassment and wikihounding of WeijiBaikeBianji. Another example are these kind of edits by a newly arrived editor. ,

In addition I have identified and reported a series of troubling sockpuppets of Mikemikev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), some with specifically antisemitic overtones, including Suarneduj (talk · contribs), Juden Raus (talk · contribs), RLShinyblingstone (talk · contribs) and Oo Yun (talk · contribs).

I am requesting that arbitrators please clarify the particular nature of my topic ban by mutual consent and whether it should in future apply to process pages, for which there has been no indication so far. Please could arbitrators also provide guidance for administrators overseeing the arbitration noticeboards as to whether they may change the nature of carefully formulated topic bans of this kind.

Response to Newyorkbrad and Shell Kinney

Thank you for these kind comments. Even if my name at any stage were formally removed from the list of those topic banned, I should make it clear that for my own sanity I would continue not to edit articles or their talk pages in this area.

Out of process extension of topic ban by EdJohnston and Timotheus Canens

According to this diff these administrators, without any clear remit or justification, claim to have extended my topic ban in some imprecise way to policy pages. Please could arbitrators explain whether this is permissible and could these administrators please explain their reasoning a little more carefully.

Further comments

I have made two requests on ArbCom noticeboards since WP:ARBR&I was closed on August 26 2010:

• Nov 22: about Captain Occam and possible meatpuppetry, a somewhat complex situtation. The result was that Woodsrock received a logged warning from MastCell. I had corresponded prior to this with members of ArbCom.

• Nov 26: Ferahgo the Assassin blocked by MastCell for contravening her topic ban.

ArbCom carried out a checkuser on the two users mentioned above. From what I understand ArbCom is concerned about issues connected with meatpuppetry. Several administrators made comments about that in the first request. After the extension of the topic ban to cover RfCs was announced, Ferahgo the Assassin posted five times to the RfC/U in question: I mentioned this to EdJohnston in a recent email. It seems unlikely that ArbCom would impose restrictions on participating in RfC/Us. In almost all circumstances they concern issues of user conduct not content editing. My outside view in this particular RfC/U, which does not conform to standard RfC/Us, was anodyne and commonplace, having no relation whatsoever to any kind of topic ban. I have also contributed to the RfC/U on YellowMonkey and will continue to do so while views are still being posted. If any administrator attempted to block me for doing so, I assume that they would risk being desysopped by ArbCom.

Additional statement about meatpuppetry

Details of another account, recently active in this area since the topic ban of Ferahgo the Assassin, have been sent in private to a member of ArbCom, who has passed on the details to other arbitrators. This additional evidence, found completely by accident, seems uncontestable at the moment.

Reply to Timotheus Canens

Many thanks for your statement. I had assumed this in the interim. I was not intending to comment in the RfC/U any further, even if I agree with some of the subsequent statements. I sent a wiki-email to EdJohnston concerning WP:AE and will forward that email to you. Apologies that I did not do so before.

Comment on Captain Occam's additional statement

This is directly related to the recent information that members of ArbCom have been sent in private. Both EdJohnston and Timotheus Canens are now aware of the issue. I have no complaint at all about the advice offered on WP:AE, which seems extremely sensible.

Statement by Captain Occam

Since this thread discusses both me and Ferahgo, I think Mathsci should have notified us about it, but now that I’ve found it I’ll offer a statement here.

As someone who was accused of meatpuppetry in one of Mathsci’s recent AE threads, I beg to differ with the assertion that Mathsci’s participation in process pages has been completely harmless. I would recommend that arbitrators read this thread before concluding that Mathsci is correct to claim this. Apparently Mathsci is convinced that Woodsrock and Sightwatcher are both meatpuppets of mine, and this has resulted in a week-long AE thread, although almost none of the people commenting (and no admins) have believed that there’s a good reason to assume this. Even so, Mathsci is continuing to claim that I am violating my topic ban (as in the statement above), and bringing up this accusation in unrelated discussions where the accounts that he suspects of being meatpuppets have participated. (Such as here). I have neither been blocked nor warned for violating my topic ban since the end of the arbitration case, and as far as I know Sightwatcher and Woodsrock are just a pair of new uses who happen to disagree with Mathsci (although I admit it wouldn’t hurt for Woodsrock to improve his civility), and for Mathsci to keep bringing up this accusation against us is very irritating.

More importantly, dealing with these accusations first from Muntuwandi and now from Mathsci has made it very difficult for me to work on the other articles that I’d like to. My style of editing is that I prefer to fully focus on one article at a time, and not allow myself to be distracted by anything else until I’m reasonably satisfied with it, but this requires me not having to constantly deal with accusations being made against me. During the three months since the end of the arbitration case, there has only been around one month during which I was left alone sufficiently to do this, during which I wrote the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case article. I had been hoping to get started on my planned rewrite of the William Beebe article over the past week—I’ve now done all of the research that I need to for it—but while Mathsci is continuing to badger me, that’s not possible.

As can be seen from the proposed decision page before Mathsci volunteered to be topic banned by consent, when he agreed to this the arbitrators were already voting in favor of him receiving a topic ban identical to the one received by me and David.Kane, and opposing the lesser remedy for him. The only reason Mathsci received a topic ban that was voluntary rather than involuntary is because he volunteered for this four days before the case closed. The “Review of topic bans” decision also states that applications for topic bans to be lifted will not be considered less than six months before the close of the case. To make an exception to this in Mathsci’s case because his topic ban was voluntary would send a message that any time an editor is clearly going to be sanctioned in an arbitration case, he can avoid being subject to some aspects of the ruling by volunteering to receive the sanction that arbitrators are already voting for. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Additional comments

Although it’s correct that Mathsci is no longer participating in the RFC, he’s still using unrelated fora to snipe at the people who express disagreement with him there. Is Mathsci’s participation in discussions like that one really helpful, and something that ought to be encouraged? --Captain Occam (talk) 19:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Mathsci

By any objective standard, it’s disruptive for you to hijack an unrelated discussion in order to accuse an administrator who disagreed with you in the RFC of “silliness and absurdity”. I’m obviously not a party to your private communications with ArbCom, and neither are the admins who will be closing the AE thread, but I don’t see how any kind of private communications with ArbCom would justify acting this way. You’ve made it clear what your excuse about this is—that all of what you’ve been doing recently is acceptable in light of your private correspondence, but that since you can’t actually tell anyone else about the content this correspondence, the admins closing the AE thread will have to just take your word for this. You’ve been in private correspondence with ArbCom for around two weeks now. Isn’t it a little inappropriate to use this secrecy as a one-size-fits-all excuse for whatever you want to do in the meantime? --Captain Occam (talk) 20:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Questions about EdJohnston’s new sanctions

I don’t think it’s a bad idea in principle to extend topic bans to all discussions related to the articles in question, and I know this has been done with topic bans from other arbitration cases. But I have some concerns about the process by which EdJohnston made a decision in this particular case. When I discussed this with EdJohnston in his user talk, he said that I should ask ArbCom about it in this thread, so I’m doing so. The thread where I explained my concerns to him is here. Since EdJohnston has suggested that ArbCom examine this situation, I think arbitrators should read the thread there.

As I stated there, EdJohnston originally suggested in the AE thread that this expansion of topic bans from the R&I case be extended for Mathsci as well as me and Ferahgo, because he and Timothy Canens both felt that all three of us have contributed to the continued conflict over these articles. Mathsci subsequently contacted both of these admins privately via e-mail, and shortly thereafter, EdJohnston and Timothy Canens decided to sanction me and Ferahgo but not Mathsci. No other admins commented in the discussion about this. As far as I know, after EdJohnston’s original proposal to sanction all three of us, the only thing that changed about the situation was Mathsci e-mailing him. (Unless you count Mathsci’s new comments directed at Cirt, but those would argue in favor of him being included in the additional sanctions, not against this.)

In the discussion in his user talk, EdJohnston has said that his decision in the AE thread was not influenced by Mathsci’s e-mails. He also said in this comment there that once Mathsci began e-mailing him, it would have been a good idea for him to close the AE thread with no action, in order to avoid the appearance of being influenced by private correspondence. But even though EdJohnston clearly agrees that it would not have been appropriate for him to let e-mails from one of the involved parties in an AE thread influence his decision there, he has not been willing to explain what other than Mathsci’s e-mails caused him to change his mind about his initial proposal to sanction all three of us equally.

I consider this a problem for two reasons. First, even though EdJohnston is basically agreeing that it might have been a better idea for him to close the thread with no action in order to avoid the appearance of being influenced by private correspondence, he is not willing to do anything to reverse the fact that he’s created that impression. He’s unwilling to reverse the decision he made there, and he’s also unwilling to explain what caused his reversal of opinion about sanctioning all of us equally. And second, according to this decision from a past arbitration case, EdJohnston has a responsibility to explain why he chose to sanction me without sanctioning Mathsci. EdJohnston has not explained this, despite my asking him about it several times in his user talk. According to this arbitration principle, if EdJohnston was not prepared to justify the reason for this decision in public, he should not have made it. (And as stated in the comment that I linked to, EdJohnston seems to agree that perhaps he should not have made this decision, but he’s still not willing to undo it.)

Can ArbCom clarify what’s the appropriate course of action here? This is the first time I’ve ever had an admin sanction me and then later express uncertainty over whether it might have been a better idea to take no action, while still being unwilling to reverse their decision. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:24, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by VsevolodKrolikov

I'd like the ban to include RfCs connected to the topic, broadly construed. I struggle to see how the involvement of any of these three editors at the RfC concerning user:WeijiBaikeBianji is not going against the purpose of the topic ban. I also think that MathSci's repeated allegations that the RfC has been instigated by the other two need to stop. There is no evidence for this that I have seen, and it heightens tension when all the active editors in the area want WBB to do is WP:HEAR the concerns of other editors, and not edit against consensus or be "bold" when it's really unwise to be. RfCs are not there to enforce sanctions, and we are not "reporting" WBB, but trying to bring him into a better mode of editing.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:02, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Question for Shell Kinney You don't think the repeated allegations of meatpuppetry are at all problematic? The calling for an AE enforcement in what looks rather like a response to a genuine RfC, on fairly flimsy grounds? I have to disagree with you that his involvement has been entirely benign. I simply don't see the need for topic banned people to be involved in the RfC. RfCs don't hand out sanctions. They're meant to be attempts to sort out problems in an area without resort to sanctions. It shouldn't happen with topic banned editors snipping from the sidelines trying to influence how people edit in the topic.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 12:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

For Professor Marginalia I find your statement somewhat contradictory. You emphasise how MathSci has only been civil, yet you think the claims of Captain Occam instigating interference are not justified. Civil accusations are still accusations, and the way that they seemed to rope in more than just these two editors raised tensions. My own feeling getting involved in all of this is that far too many people were just too jumpy. What do we have? One uncivil editor who got blocked without any complaints, and another who has accepted - albeit grudgingly, that the RfC should come to an end - an RfC suggested by an admin. MathSci also endorsed the statement "This RfC seems to be ideologically motivated, I think you're hoping for ArbCom to overreact and hand out a topic ban. Do try proper dispute resolution rather than bringing out the big guns to get people banned", an aggressive, accusatory statement that certainly seemed unnecessary. (Remember, it was an admin who suggested RfC as the way forward in the dispute). MathSci of course wasn't the only endorser - the jumpiness seems more widespread than that. "Suspicion" has been used a few times here to imply guilt on the part of the suspected. There's communication going on off-wiki with arbcom that we're not all party too; dark hints about what might be found regarding meat puppetry also haven't helped. Having someone whose only role is to "sniff out socks and trolls" sounds all very nice. The thing is, even if there are no witches, having a witchfinder general around the place doesn't make for a happy community. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Tijfo098

The constant stream of administrative complaints from topic banned users is a proxy way of influencing articles in this area. The single-purpose accounts is probably another. Presumably NYB & Shell intend to carve a "whistleblower" role for Mathsci, who will exclusively deal with filing administrative requests in this topic area from now on, in contrast to the other topic banned users who, by emerging AE consensus, aren't going to be allowed to do this anymore. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

I remain of the view that input by topic-banned editors in topic-related processes, including DR, is neither necessary or helpful in general, nor useful in this case. All it seems to accomplish is to encourage the topic-banned users to continue to snipe at each other and watch the topic area closely, personalizing the disputes further and fostering battleground behavior, instead of properly disengaging. The fact that no admin was inclined to address the bulk of Mathsci's most recent enforcement request before it was archived for the first time is telling. T. Canens (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@Mathsci: In case it isn't clear: so far no one has purported to actually expand your topic ban. Admin comments at AE are not sanctions until and unless they are acted upon, by means of a notification on user talk, logging at the case page, and so on; and as long as WP:ARBR&I#Discretionary sanctions has not been vacated, administrators have the remit to impose sanctions they deem necessary and appropriate. T. Canens (talk) 19:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Professor marginalia

The ambiguities in arb comm's sanctions and/or advice only inspired Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin to explore all manner of alternatives to influence the articles *besides* directly editing them after their topic bans, including the one-sided schmoozing and prospecting for proxy edits on user talk pages. The both of them tune out what they don't want to hear, so hints and fuzzy lines merely open doors to crazy-making. For their own sakes they should be given bright white boundary lines.

Mathsci's continued involvement seems to have limited itself to sniffing out socks and trolls, which have been springing up like mushrooms. It's a delicate balance - between WP:BITE and WP:DUCK. But he's not shooting wildly - his targets (rightly or wrongly) fit the profile of socks (new and sleepers) - and he's got a lot of company sharing his suspicions. I'm suspicious too--we're seeing a rash of newly hatched newbies who are just way too comfortable with wp, with policy, editing tools, userboxes, with template and article creation, with subscription only access to professional journals used in references, and several (most bizarrely) adopting a peculiarly skewed interest in the tedious arbitration conducted months before they registered. Off-site recruitment was an objection raised against some of the now topic banned users during the arbitration. Despite sharing some of his suspicions, I myself wouldn't go so far as Mathsci to blame Captain Occam of instigating here. Yes, there is a history, a pattern, but for me I know that the editing of articles with kinds of back-page baggage as these involved articles have inherited can get derailed by juvenile hijinks and intrigues pointing in any number of directions, always at the expense of those focused on the "substance" in disputes.

With that said, I really don't see that mathsci's involvement has been disruptive. He's been civil-magnanimous even. I generally try to "tune out" or wp:DENY those I suspect of being trolls, socks or proxies--but I realize they are disruptive and somebody needs to meet them head on. Since the accusations against him he acknowledged when he voluntarily imposed (later ratified by arb comm) his own topic ban narrowly focused on incivility, I again come back to--I don't see where he's being uncivil. In other words, I think the disruptions were already there--Mathsci's involvement simply forced attention on them via the dispute channel or WP styled "chain of command". Professor marginalia (talk) 08:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Answer to VsevolodKrolikov: Let me clarify that I do think Captain Occam has instigated interference--but I can't say he's the mastermind responsible for socks and meatpuppets. And I disagree that Mathsci's accusations have "roped" anybody here-others have been posting these allegations weeks before he weighed in. WBB inherited three newly registered antagonists and a fourth whose account was inactive for years at the exact moment his old one, Ferahgo the Assassin, is delivered a topic ban. Just one week after benign disagreement between the two following his first and (at the time) only edit to a race/intelligence related article and Sightwatcher is backing Ferahgo against WBB over on AE. There's no "witch hunt" here. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

Please see the result of a request at Arbitration Enforcement. Wider topic bans were imposed on Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin. For convenience the Sanction portion of the AE is reproduced in the box below:

This thread was closed with no sanctions on Mathsci. Obviously Arbcom can make a decision to lift Mathsci's ban if they want to. The AE request mentioned the behavior of two new editors who have recently become active on R&I, and might possibly be socks:

• Woodsrock (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and
• SightWatcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Woodsrock has made some personal attacks, and was notified of the R&I discretionary sanctions by MastCell on 22 November. He has not edited Misplaced Pages since then. SightWatcher seems to be more of a good-faith editor, and I don't see any misbehavior yet that would justify notification under the R&I sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I personally believe that, with the closing of the AE request without any change in the scope of Mathsci's topic ban, the main reason for Mathsci to seek a clarification here has gone away. My own opinion is that the strengthened sanction on Captain Occam and Ferahgo will help to reduce the unneeded process activity around Race and intelligence. The closure of the AE request does reflect a lesser concern about Mathsci's process activities around R&I (and those of David.Kane) than those of the two others. I can think of some reasons why Arbcom might want to continue their review of Mathsci's clarification request anyway:

1. If they believe it is time to lift Mathsci's topic ban, as suggested by one arb.
2. If they think that sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry around Race and intelligence are significant and require their attention. If so, then the need to handle confidential information might be a reason for the further study to take place within Arbcom rather than at AE. This clarification request could serve as a dialog to receive input from the community regarding possible violations of WP:SOCK. At present we know little (except for what Mathsci has said in various requests) about the status of Arbcom's review of the possible meatpuppetry. We have heard that a checkuser was run, presumably at the request of the arbs and not per SPI, regarding Woodsrock and SightWatcher. I asked this question of Captain Occam on my user talk: "I would welcome any clarification you can give as to whether you think SightWatcher or Woodsrock could be anyone you know personally or have communicated with electronically". He replied that that he had sent email to Shell Kinney. This does suggest that at least some of the arbs may be interested in pursuing this question. EdJohnston (talk) 05:23, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Awaiting statements. I am specifically open to the possibility of lifting Mathsci's topic-ban at this time, to avoid disputes about its precise borders, given his statement that in any event he does not intend to return to editing the articles themselves. It may also be that we need to review the behavior of various editors on these articles since the case closed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Waiting for additional statements here, but I don't believe Mathsci's participation in process areas for this topic has been disruptive. Shell 04:19, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Willing to lift the topic ban, given Mathsci's voluntary withdrawal of editing articles in the topic area. SirFozzie (talk) 19:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Palestine-Israel articles

Initiated by Cptnono (talk) at 08:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Cptnono

1/rr was just rolled out across the topic. It has already proven to not mean much but the main reason I am bringing this up here is because editors do not know where to take requests for enforcement. There will be violations even though we all wish they didn't come up. Does it come to AE or the edit warring noticeboard?

Statement by George

I think that edit warring noticeboard is more adept at handling simpler, first-time infractions of the 1RR sanction, while more problematic, long term, serial sanction violators should be referred to AE. Just my two cents. ← George 08:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Well I have 3 cents and it says that AE is superior since it is focused on topic areas of heightened conflicts and should receive faster and stronger results :) I can see problems with both since the edit warring noticeboard is more likely to be ignored but AE is more drama. Edit warring board might also have admins fresh to the topic area (which could be a good thing) but they are less informed on problem editors (although AE has not taken care of problem editors). I don't think it matters too much but it needs to be efficient so whatever makes most sense for the guys looking at the issue is a good thing.Cptnono (talk) 08:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't have a problem if other editors want to go to AE first, but I think we should be free to go to either (though not both for the same incident, which would be forum shopping). AE is about as focused as a wrecking ball operated by a drunk... it may swing this way today and knock everyone out, or it might miss the building entirely. Keeps life exciting, at least. :) ← George 08:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I was not using a wrecking ball today!Cptnono (talk) 08:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

Requests to enforce the 1RR itself can be taken to AN3. If you ask for action to be taken under the discretionary sanctions provision (i.e., beyond a simple 1RR block), take it to AE. T. Canens (talk) 08:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, TC. That is one admin. We don't need a dozen or anything but if we have a few say how they prefer it then others can take it from there. It isn't like we need a set rule or anything but being able to say a simple "hey it would be best if you went that direction" might be nice.10:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

• If you take a look at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142 you will see some cases of Arbcom sanctions being handled at AN3, in a workmanlike fashion. Violations of 1RR are well within the abilities of AN3. Here are three examples:

-- EdJohnston (talk) 06:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I think the views above are reasonable; I have no objection to simple xRR enforcement being handled at AN/3RR if the enforcing administrators find that to be a more suitable venue. Kirill  02:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• Recused on this case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:01, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• The comments pretty much have it here - simple revert warring enforcement can be handled at 3RR but anything complex should be handled at AE. Shell 04:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Generally agree with my colleagues.. my first thought is that AE should be the first place of business, but anywhere that gets a cross-section of aministrator attention is fine by me. SirFozzie (talk) 19:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)