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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by CyclePat (talk | contribs) at 03:57, 24 February 2006 (→challange to tag by 65.129.187.156: the cross is being set up! However no one want to speak up. meuh! Let's keep cool. and see what happens). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Refocusing

What are the substantive content disputes on this page? While I appreciate both of your positions, WP talk pages are for discussing article content, and not anything else. ARE there any content disputes? Please try to be concise, and don't comment on other editors. Comment on content. · Katefan0/mrp 16:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Folks,Katefan0thinks I brought trupatriot, and Mr. Dorsen, ScrdBldTtd5982, in to say nice things about me. As both of you know, I never talked to either of you (by email or otherwise) in my life. With Kate in charge of this page, it is best for me to not be involved. I am tired of being libeled, adn that was libel. Hope someone reads this, before she removes it too, while she let Pig say wikipedia sucked for months. Sorry Kate, you were dead wrong on this/

Both of you were out of line, but it's done. Over. So let's try to put it behind us and let sleeping dogs lie. It does nobody any good to keep whinging on about it. If nobody can articulate a content dispute, I'll assume there aren't any. · Katefan0/mrp 17:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

No Katefan0Kate, I am sorry. You wrote that I had two people write in here, and write notes of support, when I have never talked to either in their lives. You are a very bright person, and have access to top attorneys, so ask them: that was plain libel. As to Pig, I was wrong only in that I let myself be part of misusing this page. I should NOT have wasted space in defending myself. I should have let management handle it. But for weeks you did not handle it, just as you let him put up insane remarks like "why wikipedia sucks." And you were plain wrong in what you said about me this morning, it was an open libel and a lie. I am sorry, but I don't like that. I have treated you with the utmost respect, and if you think for a second that trupatriot, and Mr. Dorsen, ScrdBldTtd5982 knew me, had talked to me, were brought in by me, that is just crazy. There are plenty of content disputes, which i articulated as least as well as you or anyone else could, but frankly, you are too biased against myself to adjudicate them, by what you did this morning. oldwindybear

I wasn't even watching this article when this stuff happened, so there's no way I could have tried to mediate when I didn't even realize it was happening. If you think accusing me of ignoring something I wasn't even aware of is "treating me with the utmost respect," I respectfully submit that you are mistaken.

Outline whatever your content disputes are if you like, but this is enough. SaltyPig has stopped and so should you. If you want to take further actions against him, you are welcome to open a requests for comment at WP:RFC or a request for arbitration at WP:RFAr. But the constant recursive whining on this talk page, given that SaltyPig stopped commenting almost a week ago, needs to stop. · Katefan0/mrp 17:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Then you should have the decency to admit that I did not bring in anyone to comment on my behalf, and I will gladly drop the matter. You have a double standard, you get to libel me, but when I object, you complain it is whining. As for Pig, since he has stopped, I see no reason to harrass him. You addressed every issue but the one that mattered: that you claimed you removed material from this page because I brought people in -- people I have never spoken to in my life -- to write nice things about me. That is wrong, period. If you did not know about the "wikipedia sucks" and other craziness, then i was wrong, and I humbly apologize. I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. Are you? That comment on my bringing people in was a really low blow. oldwindybear

I'm glad to hear that you didn't. Please, let's turn to content now. · Katefan0/mrp 17:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Folks, the issues I had researched and were asking for comments on before attempting the article rewrite have been arhieved; if anyone is interested in really attempting to rewrite this article -- with it's present many glaring holes and inaccuracies -- i would be glad to send you my notes and research. in the interim, the issues that had been posted are archieved. Take care! oldwindybear11:26pmEST1/12/06

NPOV?

Notwithstanding the issues between users, I have an NPOV concern with these two statements: "However, he appears to have been the only posse member bothered in any way by his actions." AND "Most of these souvenirs were later sold, rendering even more disgraceful the conduct of Hamer and the posse who killed Bonnie and Clyde."

These two statements seem to display a blatant opinion, and I think they need to be removed. In the spirit of good faith, I'll hold off until we can discuss them further. I also gave the controversy and aftermath it's own section, since the events leading up to the shootings don't seem to be in dispute. Joe McCullough | (talk) 18:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Joe McCullough The statement on " However, he appears to have been the only posse member bothered in any way by his actions" is based on his being the only posse member to have ever expressed regreat and remorse for his actions that day, and his quoted statements, see The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde by John Treherne, and I can also refer you to three other books that make similar claims. I reworded it so it simply states the facts: he was the only posse member to publically express regret and remorse for his actions that day. I also reworded the sale of souvenirs, but the blunt fact is they were sold, 3 officers of the law were left to prevent people from doing things like cutting off pieces of Bonnie's hair and dress - which people did, and then sold! Or a man trying to cut off Clyde's finger and ear! Most people find that pretty appalling. I was extremely caerful to cite direct quotes from sources on the death scene, and I think you will find, as will anyone who checks, that it is correct and fair. Frank Hamer was in charge, and allowed it to happen till the coroner made himstop the people from doing these horrific things. I reworded so the facts are presented, not as an op-ed, but the facts, sourced, and people can make up their own mind as to whether it was disgraceful conduct. HOWEVER, you were right that it was not correctly worded, and I thank you and have tried to use dispassionate language thatlets people examine what happened, and reach their own conclusions. If you feel it needs more, just let me know. I have EVERY book on this couple in existence, and studied it from sea to shining sea. But you can always learn! Thanks for pointing out the language needed to be more dispassionate.old windy bear 14:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

just say... according to¨(source), he appears to have been the only posse member bothered by his actions. as for the second there appears to be a lot more sugestive information of perhaps a conspiracy? Why not just say, according to some historians the sale of of these souvenirs rendered the conduct of Hamer and the posse, who killed bonnie and clyde, "questionable". (put your source... and if you have a counter argument put it right after). Such as I dunno (I'm making this up)... "The police and general population's percepetion (at the time), however believe that this conduct was fair?"

The thing is there can be millions of POV's on wikipedia. (is that apple red... or is it "rouge vin" with some little freckles). Both should be mentioned. If you don't like the way it's worded thank refrase it.--CyclePat 21:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Rephrased is fine, my only point there is that those sentences read more like an op-ed piece than an encyclopedic article. Joe McCullough | (talk) 21:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The thing with wikipedia, is that it should always be based on the accounts of someone else (reliable source of course!). If it's the way the original editor wrote it... I sugest you find out if this was a POV or if it was based on his sources. And even so, the sources should be indicated. NOw if you are wondering about the relevance of this information to be included that may be something else. Is it important that we know "he was bothered by his actions?" or that the conduct was "disgraceful."... I think you're right about the disgraceful. Definatelly the last be reformated. Simply stating what happened and allowing the reader to figure out for themself might be best!!! (ie.: Hitler doesn't even have the word bad or awful). So, personally I would keep the first one (adding the source)(if this subject is important), and edit the second one (removing the last parts). (But that's just me... and I haven't even read this article) --CyclePat 21:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

CyclePat HI Pat! I think I have addressed Joe's concerns, and reworded, carefully, citing actual sources. Actually the public was more appalled by the way Bonnie and Clyde died than they were delighted, though certainly a large number were happy the duo were gone. I have reworded the statements Joe was concerned about, reflecting what the sources actually said. NO source supported the sale of the souvenirs, which was plain robbery -- the Texas Department of Corrections, or Frank Hamer, lacked the authority to authorize the seizure of other people's weapons, or Bonnie and Clyde's few personal possessions, and have them sold. As for the horror of the scene after their death, with a man trying to cut off parts of Clyde's body, and people cutting pieces of Bonnie's hair and dress, check The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde by John Treherne, generally regarded as the best sourced and researched book on the duo. Frank Hamer was in charge, and allowed it to happen, as did the posse members left on the scene -- all of whom took souvenirs of their own, again well sourced as noted. (I quoted directly from the coroner's horror upon arriving at what was happening - with Hamer not stopping it until the coroner asked him to do so. It is now worded literally from the direct source, and people can make up their own mind as to the disgrace, or whether it is just spiffy that an officer of the law let someone cut a dead girl's hair off and sell it. old windy bear 14:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

accuracy schmaccuracy

it's good that the historians and scrupulous researchers are minding this article:

Ironically, though they are remembered as bank robbers, they were not. Clyde preferred small stores or even gas stations.

even were the not-bank-robbers claim true (which it's not), how is that, by any definition, relating to, containing, or constituting irony? weren't bank robbers? see Twenty-first Century Update, Appendix Four, listing 10 banks known or suspected of being robbed by clyde barrow, some with the indirect participation of bonnie. clyde and his associates admitted to robbing some banks, and there were piles of witnesses corroborating that they did rob some banks -- facts not disputed except at wikipedia. if the point is that bonnie didn't rob banks, well she didn't rob stores or gas stations then either. the new version, as the old, treats them as a pair, so that's not obviously not the issue (though one never knows with the slippery). the "bank robbers" claim (added very early on) was never changed before the historians arrived, because it was neither misleading nor inaccurate. the article was edited further in (before the arrival of the historians) to state clearly that clyde preferred small stores and gas stations, and that he hit them far more than he did banks; didn't need to be addressed in the intro, and it still doesn't. they were bank robbers; elaboration can wait.

In her book about her year with Bonnie and Clyde Blanche Barrow also claimed Bonnie never shot anyone.

My Life with Bonnie and Clyde, page 66 (blanche barrow writing): Clyde laid one of the rifles across Bonnie's lap, with the barrel sticking out the window. He told Bonnie to hold it up and shoot. She did. We heard later that a woman was wounded in the arm.

only the start of how this article's gone downhill. we blame the ***PIG*, and remain: TruPatriot173 & ScrdBldTtd5982. 63.28.34.13 05:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Pig did some of the damage, but the one source you cited is contradicted by at least 5 other accounts of the duo which are better sourced - Blanche's was personal memory, written in prison, self serving, and she hated them both for what she considered getting her husband killed and her imprisoned. (Blanche forgot she made her own choices!) The article is consistent with the following sources, which all agree on Bonnie not shooting or killing anyone, and Clyde, while havnig robbed some banks, preferred smaller stores and gas stations, by a ration of 10 to 1 or greater!

• Treherne, John (2000). The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde. Cooper Square Press. ISBN 0815411065.
• DeFord, Miriam Allen (1968). The Real Bonnie and Clyde. Sphere Books.

Hinton, Ted; Grove, Larry (1979). The Real Story of Bonnie and Clyde. Shoal Creek Publishers, Inc. ISBN 0883190419.

• Shelton, Gene (1997). The Life and Times of Frank Hamer. Berkeley Books. ISBN 0425159736.
• Matteson, Jason, 'Texas Bandits: A Study of the 1948 Democratic Primary"

Cartledge, Rick "The Guns of Frank Hamer,"

• Milner, E.R. The Lives and Times of Bonnie and Clyde"
• Steele, Phillip, and Scoma Barrow, Marie, The Family Story of Bonnie and Clyde

Topeka Capital-Jopurnal

• Ted Hintonand and Alacorn justifying ambushing Bonnie and Clyde with no warning in the "Took no chances" article, Hinton and Alcorn tell Newspapermen Wednesday Night's Extra, Dallas Dispatch.
• See also Geringer, Joseph BONNIE & CLYDE: ROMEO AND JULIET IN A GETAWAY CAR downloaded from the Crime Library Online at http://www.crimelibrary.com/americana/bonnie/main.htm

A genuine effort has been made to make this article consistent with the facts as they are known. For instance, there were no warrants for Bonnie for murder, though Clyde had at least 10. John Treherne actually went to the counties, cities, parishes (Louisiana) and searched the old records! As to the laws, I went to the Library of Congress and checked the statues of the states involved, following up on Treherne's work, I was curious, and he was correct. If your biggest quarrel is that they robbed some banks, that will be added because it is the truth. But the facts on Bonnie not deliberately ever shooting or killing anyone is extremely well sourced, and the best historical record we have. I don't see how this could be Kate's fault? People for some reason either want to believe Bonnie was totally innocent, (she was not, she was riding around with a psychopath while he killed people!), or totally villianous, which she also was not. As pointed out repeatedly, the law was different then, and she could not be charged for a murder Clyde committed while she sat in the car outside. At any rate, read some of the sources listed - Gerringer's online account BONNIE & CLYDE: ROMEO AND JULIET IN A GETAWAY CAR is actually pretty well sourced and accurate -- and you will see the article reflects what is generally conceded to be the truth.old windy bear 13:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

sofixit · Katefan0/poll 17:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

you're in charge, katefan... 63.28.48.232 17:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

error

despite multiple protestations of how horrid and error-ridden the article was before the historians arrived and "cleaned" it all up (ha!), there still remains a blatant error the ****PIG* inserted by mistake. can't find it? ted hinton's son saw it immediately when *PIG*** asked him to read the article last fall. it's been sitting there for months now. such scrutiny! bet it's there next year too. as ever, we stand in awe. TruPatriot173 & ScrdBldTtd5982 63.28.92.146 10:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

TruPatriot173 HI Tru, I am genuinely trying to clean this article up, based on the legitimate sources available. If I have missed something - though I question Ted Hinton's son as the best source, given the controversy over his claims after his father's death about what happened on the night and morning of the ambush - please let me know, and I will fix it at once. You are nice people, and I would appreciate your help. If something is genuinely wrong, please let me know, and I will fix it. I have added the note that Clyde participated in up to 10 known bank robberies, even though the vast majority of his criminal activity was not robbing banks. I am honestly trying to clean up the mess Pig made, so your help would be appreciated.old windy bear 14:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

sofixit · Katefan0/poll 17:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

...you fix it. use your admin key. hit somebody over the head. threaten the article into compliance! 63.28.48.232 17:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

... as opposed to whining/trolling it all better, I guess. The great thing about Misplaced Pages is that it's the encyclopedia that anybody can edit. If you see an error, just fix it. Easy peasy. · Katefan0/poll 18:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

charming. kinda like walking around all day picking up litter. creates a market for litter. nah, you jangle those keys loud enough, and i'll bet the article will fix itself. jangle jangle jangle! jangle! i mean, it hasn't worked yet, but it's bound to. stay the course. 63.28.48.232 18:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As far as the historians arriving and correcting some of the errors you are misciting Blanche Barrow's book, which is not even regarded as the best source on the gang. Whether you like it or not these are the facts: Gang members W.D. Jones and Ralph Fults claimed Bonnie was strictly "logistical support," see John Neal Phillips book,"Running with Bonnie & Clyde: The Ten Fast Years of Ralph Fults." Also, in the book Riding with Bonnie and Clyde" W.D. Jones made the statement (as he had under Oath to the authorities) "Bonnie never packed a gun, out of the five major gun battles I was with them she never fired a gun." Writing with Phillip Steele in The Family Story of Bonnie and Clyde, Marie Barrow, Clyde's youngest sister, made the same claim: "Bonnie never fired a shot. She just followed my brother no matter where he went." The same accounts of Bonnie never shooting anyone is carried in The Real Bonnie and Clyde. by Miriam Deford, which is generally regarded as a good and thoroughly researched book on the duo. Probably the best source is John Treherne's work The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde. (2000) which also stated that after exhaustively traveling the country and interviewing anyone left alive who remembered the events, studying all the police reports, "Bonnie never killed or shot anyone."

As to the issue of bank robbery, the point was not that they never robbed a bank - 10 is a high number, most historians put it at 5-8, but 10 is possible, but it doesn't compare to the literally dozens of small gas stations and Mom and Pop stores that Clyde preferred. However, I changed the article to reflect that Clyde did rob some banks, so it is more accurate, while preserving the point the vast bulk of his criminal endevors, such as they were, (Dillinger, for instance, considered Clyde a bumbling amataur and Bonnie a love struck fool that gave criminals a bad name!) Your statment that Bonnie was with him is also incorrect. Bonnie was in the car during virtually all of the crimes Clyde committed, which under the law at the time did not make her guilty of those crimes. In 1934 the states of Louisiana, Texas and the federal government lacked the laws we have today on accessory in the first and second degree and conspriracy which would have allowed charging Bonnie for Clyde's crimes. Ted Hinton's son is not the best source for asking about Bonnie and Clyde either, since he and he alone makes the claim that his father helped Frank Hamer tie Methvin's father to a tree all night the day before and during the ambush -- a claim Ted Hinton never made in his lifetime, but his son released after his death, when no one could ask him! Blaming Kate for this is ridiculous. old windy bear 13:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, she didn't shoot/kill anyone, we get it.

Granted, the common perception of Bonnie Parker as a murderer on par with Clyde Barrow is clearly wrong. And granted that the bulk of the evidence, including the most credible sources, would indicate that she never even so much as shot someone. And granted that she was never explicitly charged with or wanted for a murder, regardless of wether she committed one. Even taking all of that on faith, is it neccessary to repeat this fact FOURTEEN TIMES in this one article? It's repeated so much, sometimes copying the same quote from the same source multiple times, and often inserted out of nowhere at the end of some other paragraph, that it sounds like you're trying to convince the reader of something that's not true.

I don't personally own any of the source material, so I'm not going to attempt to edit the article, but I would suggest that the editors that do have access to the sources:

1. Clean up the citations a bit; since you refer to the same sources multiple times, I'd suggest the more typical academic citations like "..... (Butler 2003)" as opposed to footnotes.

2. Move all of the stuff about Bonnie's killing/not killing anyone to the "controversy" section, which seems to be the best place for it. Also, if it's true that Blanche Barrow claims she saw Bonnie shoot someone, you SHOULD mention that as a counter-argument; along with any information that would assist the reader in judging her credibility. e.g. "Blanche Barrow, claims that Bonnie ...; this claim comes from her book ..., which was written from jail many years after her brothers death, which she has publically blamed on Bonnie Parker." Or whatever the case may be. A sensible reader will be able to compare 3-4 unbiased sources vs. one potentially biased source and make up their own mind.

Kutulu 20:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Kutulu Some of your ideas are good ones, such as using the standard sourcing type wikipedia generally uses. I also think some of the references to her not shooting anyone could be limited.

1) As to the reference to Blanche Barrow's book, first, it was written in prison, it was extremely bitter, (which she had a right to be), it contradicts all other evidence and statements -- under Oath in court -- by members of the gang, and finally, Blanche claimed that shooting was an accident, in which someone was grazed accidently, and not during a crime. The distinction is important -- all Blanche claimed, in contradiction to virtually all other evidence, was that Bonnie accidently discharged a weapon that grazed someone, while at home,and not as a criminal act during a Barrow gang crime.

2) I think it is important to make reference to this during the section devoted to Bonnie, simply because the general perception is she was Clyde's equal, and that was wrong. It is mentioned again in the ambush, because it became a very important question, was shooting her without warning, when she had not committed murder, a crime in itself? Again, this issue arises in the aftermath.

But you are right, there are too many, and the citation format needs to be changed, and will be. Some already have been made, several of the references to Bonnie's not killing anyone have been removed, as have repeated uses of the same book name, and Blanche Barrow claim that Bonnie fired a rifle Clyde put in her lap out a window has been added. Still, the bottom line is that public officials fired 130 rounds, shooting a girl to pieces who was not wanted for any capital offense, and was committing no crime at the moment. Then the same public officials let people cut her hair off for souvenirs, and let her clothes be stolen for souvenirs. I think that pretty much speaks for itself. old windy bear 22:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

As to the reference to Blanche Barrow's book...

if the book is such a poor source, why was it misrepresented as a source until it was pointed out that it disagreed quite explicitly with the claim? the book was good enough when it was incorrectly assumed to fit a pet thesis. now that precision has been added, however, enough disclaimers can't be found (including a highly questionable, blanket "under Oath in court" claim -- uncited as usual) to discredit the same source, covering the same subject.

all Blanche claimed, in contradiction to virtually all other evidence, was that Bonnie accidently discharged a weapon that grazed someone, while at home,and not as a criminal act during a Barrow gang crime.

wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong (literally 5 false claims in that single sentence), and the choice of the benign word "discharged" above is just more evidence of a crusade. the section of barrow's book cited above (page 66 and context) makes it quite clear that blanche barrow claimed bonnie parker shot a rifle, intentionally, from a car window, during a getaway from an attempted bank robbery, and striking, according to the editor's notes re a newspaper article, one woman in the shoulder and "wounding" another in the arm. the grazing mentioned in the book footnotes was in addition to the shoulder and arm wounds of the two victims, respectively. that was clear from quotes from the book on this very page, but through selective transmission it has now been converted, quite erroneously, into a grazing. when does this fantastic approach end?

contrary to distortion, significant evidence corroborates blanche barrow's account as perhaps being mild, and places the incident in lucerne, indiana, 12 may 1933. some witnesses reported seeing both women in the car (i.e., blanche and bonnie) using guns, from the car, in front of the Christian Church, firing "about forty shots toward a crowd of people who had poured out of their homes to see what the excitement was about." (pharos-tribune, 12 may 1933, via the footnotes in blanche's book.) the implied claim of opponents of these facts is that the moral difference between murder and peacefulness is somewhere around 5 minutes of arc, while shooting into a crowd of innocents from a moving car. absurd.

the article is now riddled with presumptuous, selectively cited, POV such as that refuted above. the new version is quite obviously on a mission to sanctify and protect bonnie parker, a woman who routinely aided murderers and thieves, living with abandon and without remorse off the proceeds of stolen wealth and lives. this is a woman who quite probably in march 1930 (with her cousin mary tagging along) burglarized a home, stole a gun, and smuggled it into jail for clyde's breakout. obviously, the key piece of info there is that clyde was in jail. she was the principal actor. good luck painting her a non-participant/saint upon a full examination of evidence. where is this burglary and direct role in a jailbreak mentioned while minimizing her role all through the article?

what about her participation in the planning and execution of the 1934 eastham prison break? is this just play material -- something the average woman does? is supporting operations in which people are killed somehow a complete separation of moral culpability? it just goes on and on. she was an accomplice to murder, more than once. this is lost entirely in the new fantasy. nowhere in the article edits has there been anything, even against clyde barrow, approaching the vitriol piled on hamer and the rest of the posse. if bonnie parker was shooting a rifle indiscriminately into a crowd of presumably innocent, unarmed strangers, how is that much different from what hamer did, except perhaps worse? the case against bonnie parker goes on for miles, but it's all denied actively in the "historian" version. where in the article is the voice of the many innocent victims of the barrow gang to counter the pained fretting over somebody trying to cut souvenirs from the corpses of criminals? the solution is to zap 'em both from the editorializing side, and report facts dispassionately.

there must be accurate neutrality in any attempt to explain that the murder of parker by the state was questionable. the article did have this neutrality, and did correct common misunderstanding clearly and objectively -- get in, get out. it was thrown away so that a biased author could hold forth from the pulpit, attempting to correct decades of misunderstanding by essentially painting bonnie parker as a helpless victim, and using misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, but including outright false claims) to do it. the debunking above is only the start of demonstrating how far off the article is now. but why should anybody else bother correcting it when somebody on a mission has a submit button that works overtime? no reason. the article will now stay a disaster, unless somebody wants to spend 5 unpaid months handholding and arguing against zealotry in POV and sloppy edits. what competent adult has the patience for that? 63.28.4.130 21:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

answering 63.28.4.130

63.28.4.130 First of all, I sign my name, so you know who you are talking too, you are merely an im who drifts in and out -- it sort of diminishes your credibility. As to the Bonnie Parker article, there is only one source that claims she fired a gun at someone, and that was Blanche Barrow, who wrote it in prison, for profit, while extremely bitter. It is disputed by every other member of the gang who TESTIFIED UNDER OATH that Bonnie never shot anyone. Now you can like it, or dislike it, but historically, their testimony under Oath carries more credibility than Blanche's recollections in prison, while not under Oath, and recollections which dispute every other member of the gang, 3 of whom put those claims -- that Bonnie shot no one -- under Oath, to the authorities!

Further, while you talk about misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, you fail to mention that BONNIE WAS NOT WANTED FOR MURDER. Clyde was. Does the article paint her a saint? Lord, no! Nor does it try to sanitize her stupidity in following and assisting a psychopath while he committed crimes! But you miss the basic point, or selectively refuse to address it, which is that NO RELIABLE SOURCE -- and sorry, but Blanche Barrow's account, not under Oath, not sworn, does not stand up legally or historically to W.D. Jones, Ralph Fults, Hnery Methvin's, all of whom swore under oath that Bonnie shot no one.

If you feel you have sources, then edit the article and cite your sources, instead of crying how the article is a crusade. The article attempts to list every source available -- including Blanche Barrow's, (which did claim Bonnie never killed anyone) -- rather than selectively source. You want it both ways. You cry if it is mentioned, cry if it is not. If you dislike the article so much -- rewrite it! That is the joy of wikipedia! Rewrite it! If it is so poorly written by those of us you claim selectively wrote it, then rewrite it, and source it yourself! You cannot dispute the plain facts, so you try to nitpick.

It is the duty of this encylopedia to give the BEST EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. And it has done so. I went back and reread Blanche's claim, and reworded to reflect that. But your constant harping does not change the facts. Do you really think that Bonnie Parker was a murderer? That she deserved to be ambushed and have her clothes and hair cut off for souvenirs? Then say so, and source it! If she was wanted for murder, state where and when!

The same thing with the incident you refer to in firing into a crowd - was there a warrant issued? That episode conflicts with most accounts. Where is your evidence??? Source it, and rewrite it, if you have it! old windy bear 02:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

as usual, heavily straw man argument. the only person who was pushing blanche barrow as a reliable source was you. has that totally escaped your view? when you thought her book backed up your theory, you pushed it. now that the inaccurate summation of her claims is debunked, you disparage her book. you obviously haven't read it thoroughly, because you say little that's accurate about it. you claim that it was written for profit. okay, how much did she get for her book, considering the manuscript sat undiscovered in a box for 12 years after her death in 1988, and the book wasn't published until 2004? according to its editor, the only person before 2000 other than blanche barrow to know of the manuscript's existence was a woman she didn't meet until 1951. doesn't sound like much of a "for profit" deal to me, considering it was written in the mid '30s. she had a deal with a publisher while in jail? document that. maybe you know something i and the editor of the book and the woman who was executrix of her estate don't. maybe you have inside evidence of why the reporter for the pharos-tribune, which published its 12 may 1933 paper completely independent of this source you claim is so tainted by profit, quoted eyewitness as claiming that the two women in the car were both shooting at bystanders. i guess you know better than the eyewitnesses, and that you can explain how this newspaper report being included in the footnotes by the editor of blanche barrow's book suddenly becomes tainted simply because it's in the book (though she had nothing to do with writing the footnotes).

tell ya what -- why not give us all a laugh and document your claims that WD jones, ralph fults, and henry methvin all "swore under oath that Bonnie shot no one." cite 'em. and when that's done, maybe you can tell everybody how that relates to the eyewitness accounts from lucerne, indiana, when only 4 people composed the barrow gang that day: bonnie parker, clyde barrow, buck barrow, and blanche barrow. are you asserting that WD jones, ralph fults, or henry methvin was an eyewitness that day in lucerne? if you aren't, your whole argument goes out the window. you probably won't understand that, because you're a man on a mission. NPOV, however, requires that this newspaper report be included with any claim that bonnie never shot anybody. quoting the editor of blanch barrow's book, "If the statements of the eyewitnesses are true, this is the only known hard evidence that Bonnie Parker ever fired a weapon in anger, much less wounded someone. It is also an indictment of Blanche's assertion that she never handled a weapon."

i wasn't there. i don't know if their claims are true, and neither do you. that's a fact. it is, however, highly notable, and should not be discounted merely because the newspaper report happened to appear in a book mostly written by blanche barrow. to imply that blanche barrow persuaded the witnesses or the newspaper to lie is ludicrous. it also should be noted that blanche's story on the matter is corroborated by the witnesses, except with regard to her shooting a gun as well. in other words, it fits nicely with the common opinion of B&C historians that blanche's story is mostly flawed only in that she paints herself as a cream puff. much of her information otherwise is well respected, and, keeping in mind the obvious flaws, makes her book one of the more valuable B&C references there is. combined with the scrupulous footnotes (which document the flaws in her story), it's a heavy hitter. regardless of what you say about the book now, even you can't seriously pretend that this edit doesn't exist. it's not going away either. 63.28.21.32 07:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

refuting 63.28.21.32 rant on Blanche Barrow

Blanche's book was cited because EVERY book that we could find on the duo was listed. If, as you claim, that newsaper article is "proof" that sworn statements by gang members were wrong, why weren't charges filed? Where are the warrants? If you have historial evidence no one does, cite it, put it in the article, instead of babbling about it back here! Blanche was with the gang one year. She was desribed in every other book on the duo as extremely bitter against them -- read The Strange Lives of Bonnie and Clyde, or any other reputable source. As for the sources that Bonnie never shot at anyone, see Gang members W.D. Jones and Ralph Fults claiming Bonnie was strictly "logistical support" (John Neal Phillips book, Running with Bonnie & Clyde: The Ten Fast Years of Ralph Fults) Fults was adamant Bonnie never fired a shot in any of the gunbattles the gang was a part of. Also, in the same book , W.D. Jones made the statement (as he had under Oath to the authorities), "Bonnie never packed a gun, out of the five major gun battles I was with them she never fired a gun." BOTH of them made those claims under Oath, see Phillips book! Writing with Phillip Steele in The Family Story of Bonnie and Clyde, Marie Barrow, Clyde's youngest sister, made the same claim: "Bonnie never fired a shot. She just followed my brother no matter where he went." John Treherne made the same claim in his well-sourced book The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde (and he went to every place such incidents occurred, and searched for warrants -- newspaper articles are fine, where are the warrants for her if that occurred?) where he essentially found that Bonnie was madly in love with a psychopath, and followed him to her death. She herself never killed anyone.

The incidcent you refer to is denied by the other gang members, and to the best of anyone's knowledge, no charges were filed against either woman allegedly involved! You obviously don't have a clue about good history, or how to write it. John Treherne traveled America visiting every jurisdiction -- including that one -- where Barrow gang crimes had allegedly been committed, and no warrants were filed on that day on two women. Th editor of her book was right, if true, this debunks Blanche's claim that she herself never fired a weapon - but the newspaper article does NOT explain why neither woman was charged for that alleged incident! Where are the warrants? Read Running with Bonnie & Clyde: The Ten Fast Years of Ralph Fults if you want his statements and W.D. Jones, and if you want the most meticulously researched book on the duo, try Trehearne's, where he actually travelled the country investigating every alleged incident involving the "Barrow Gang." And again, we come to the real question: if everyone else is doing such a poor job on this article, why don't you rewrite it? Source your rewrites, as we have the article in it's present state, and see what comes of it? If you have information on warrants we don't, or criminal charges placed we don't, bring them forward! Yes, Blanche's manuscript originally sat in a box, but it was written from prison, by an extremely bitter woman, who had hoped to make money on it! If you wish to change the article, source your changes and write away! Go read, if you know how, instead of whining, if you feel something is wrong, change it, and source your changes! old windy bear 12:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

deleting my comments in discussion by 63.28.10.16 and breaking all editing and discussion rules, making unsupported allegations by a sock puppet of someone

Katefan0Kate, I did not touch 63.28.4.130comments in editing -- I did challange them, not abusively, but factually, and that person (or whoever did it for them, 63.28.10.16 is not an editor, with the power to edit out my comments, or post personal attacks on the history page! If they feel they are improper, bring them to the attention to an editor, and ask them! Don't delete my comments -- which were clearly written in answer to theirs. They cannot debate facts, so they try to delete the responses! Again, if they have feel I violated policy, my goodness, complain to an editor like you! What they cannot do, and did, is delete my comments because they offend their particular agenda or political viewpoint. This page is precisely for the purpose of discussing issues related to this article. Because they don't like the facts, they cannot edit them out. But I tell you what, let us have an editor decide, Kate, please look at what

will you please tune in to reality, just once? you repeatedly put people in a position where they either have to clean up your mess, or, in an effort to try to get you to be a responsible, competent user, simply revert your disasters and let you try again. how long have you been editing here? news flash: everybody who edits here is an "editor". here's absolute, incontrovertable proof that you edited my comments, once again (probably unintentionally this time, but definitely by not paying proper attention to how wikipedia editing works). then when i once again restore my comments to their original state (by reverting to the version prior to your interference), once again you make the laughable claim that somebody's messing with your comments! it's just too ridiculous for words. all i did was return my comments to how they were before you reverted them (you probably still don't realize you did it, even now).

you've been here plenty long enough to have figured out how to sign/timestamp your comments (which you just figured out last month, apparently), and be able to read an edit history (still don't know). how you can spit out all the verbiage without checking the history is a real mystery. please stop responding to arguments and situations which nobody made and which don't exist. what a waste. if you haven't yet figured out that nobody is threatened by your words, you're not paying attention. nobody likes his comments messed with, and that's the issue at hand -- not some threat that your straw man argument poses. i will no longer clean up after you. i did it for weeks when you first got here, and that's plenty long enough. at least learn the basic technical aspects of wikipedia please, regardless of your edit content. if you don't understand what i'm talking about, please take a moment to figure it out before launching into yet another straw man argument. figure out what's going on here, because it should be obvious to any competent 14-year-old. respond to the relevant issue, or just let it go. and please stop screwing with other editors' comments and then playing the victim. nobody should have to clean up after you, or explain these basics to you yet again, considering how long you've been at this. 63.28.21.32 05:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

63.28.21.32 I refuse to endlessly use a discussion page to argue with someone who refuses to sign their name, makes no positive edits in the articles, and merely attacks other users. To paraphrase you, how you can spit out all this verbiage without checking the history is a real mystery -- I checked your history, you don't edit articles, you merely sit back and attack the users who write the articles, with this artifical veneer of scholarship as though you are some sort of brilliant master historian who disdains to actually work and write an article -- way too much work sourcing the work! You prefer to sit back and moan, and complain about the articles. I don't see in your list of edits a lot of work in articles, just complaints, complaints, complaints, and whine, whine, whine. You cry more than my 3 year old grandchild, and are about as articulate, when you strip away the attempt to verbiage us to death. On this im address, you sock puppet others, you have no edits at all in articles, just an attack on me. In what I suspect are your other sock puppet ID's, same pattern -- no edits in articles, just attacks on users who write articles. See a pattern there? You claim to be such a superb historian, edit the ARTICLE, and source it, instead of crying about how bad it is! If this article is so bad -- fix it! Go in there and brilliantly show us how it is done! But you never do that, you hop from im to im -- library or a school --and complain. For instance, you actually made an intelligent point that Bonnie cheerfully smuggled a gun into a jail - and perhaps that should be more emphasized (though she certainly was not severely punished for it, which you fail to mention; she was not charged with the felonies she could have been!) I could add this, but why don't you add it? Just once, in all your various disguises, (again, probably a school computer lab) you have never made ONE edit in an article, not one! Okay, show us you can actually do something constructive, instead of spit out vindictiveness or (mis)using all the multisylable words in the dictionary -- put in something in the article! Actually edit something other than a talk page where you anonymously attack the people who actually are trying to write the article -- try just once to actually improve an article, instead of crying endlessly; (you talk about edit histories; in all of yours, not ONE edit of an article, just endless attacks on talk pages!) old windy bear 12:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

it can be said very safely that you like my contributions to at least one wikipedia article. i know that with well-founded confidence. still, irrelevant comments about my IP addresses, lack of a login, edit history, whatever, have no bearing on the issues of accuracy i've raised here. rather than expecting others to fix your mistakes, maybe you could notice things like, for example, a single sentence with 5 errors, re a book you claim to own, and a situation for which the page number was handed to you ahead of time. even the page number handoff didn't keep out of the article a conjured, "window of a home" version of the story, utterly unverified. long as you have a submit button and require that all changes go through the version of history in your head, i'll just sit here shaking my head.

among the many sloppy errors in the current article, it states, "In her book about her year with Bonnie and Clyde, Blanche Barrow also claimed Bonnie never shot anyone during any of the gangs crimes. The only accusation that Bonnie ever even fired a gun that hit anyone was made by Blanche Barrow". obviously, that's ridiculously, demonstrably false in both assertions, even without getting into the questionable eyewitness from the grapevine, TX shooting. does it not bother you that you're inserting such inaccuracy into the article? (beyond the factual inaccuracy, "fired a gun that hit anyone"? c'mon.) i'm not going to fix it. period. it simply allows you to keep doing what you've been doing. here's a tip: don't make an edit you're not sure about and can't point directly to a reliable source for. accuracy matters. another tip: you and i aren't acceptable sources. everything put into the article must be either cited explicitly, or defensible with immediate, appropriate citations on request. most of the recent article changes don't meet that criterion. unidentified folklore and opinion do not an encyclopedia make. does it really escape you that the statement "This claim is denied by all other members of the Barrow gang that survived" makes no sense in the article's context? fact: you cannot cite a single definitive sentence from a barrow gang member other than blanche pertaining to the lucerne shooting. the other three members present all died that year or the next, without leaving any solid record on the subject that's been published. far as is known publicly, blanche was the only surviving barrow gang lucerne witness to have done so, and her story is corroborated and further enhanced (adding her as a shooter) by eyewitness reports. this is undeniable. stop pretending these facts away.

still waiting for someone to cite specifics backing up the repeated "under oath" claims re general statements of bonnie not shooting anybody in the presence of the 3 barrow gang members you named. who? to whom? what, specifically, was said? when? where? citation? all that's been done is you mention a quote or two, or simply assert a general claim, then say something about "under oath". playboy interviews with decrepit, retired gangsters aren't usually held under oath. and when the average gangster is under oath, it doesn't really mean much, does it? sadly, for your goal of bonnie protection, none of that's relevant to the shooting in lucerne, indiana, since none of those people was on the road with the barrow gang at the time. do these details really miss you, or do you just pretend them away for fun? read that again: none of those people was on the road with the barrow gang at the time of the shooting in lucerne. therefore, scruples require that anything they have to say on the subject be prefaced by, "in my time with bonnie..." if they didn't think to include the caveat themselves, it must be added indirectly by any honest researcher. you operate under a false premise that any member of the barrow gang is an expert on what happened when he wasn't there. every time you say "under oath" with regard to those 3 barrow gang members who weren't in lucerne, it's a vacant, overt straw man. you're rebutting strenuously a proposition that hasn't been put forth. fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. smoke. it means nothing to the matter of the lucerne shooting. why? they. weren't. there.

and when there's nowhere else to run to defend the pet thesis, you posit a theory that any crime for which a warrant wasn't known to have been issued probably didn't occur. okay, then apply that same requirement to the posse. warrants weren't issued for them, so they didn't break the law. if that's how things work in your world, then stick to it. i'm sorry if this is all too complicated for you to understand. i realize it isn't the information your grandmother, noted historian and investigator, laid out for you -- the silly reason we have to sit here and watch a solid article start POV'd into dust. you don't let stick any reversion of your edits without 27 hours of shoving facts in your face. again, who has the energy to go through that without being paid? my only possible enjoyment under the circumstances is watching you screw the thing up, then pointing out how it was done (have only scratched the surface so far). until wikipedia restricts access to articles, that's about the best option. Jerry R. Dorsen, Esq 16:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

response to Jerry Dorsen - the same Jerry Dorsen who previously, when I was writing what he wanted, said I was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Jerry R. Dorsen, EsqJerry, at least you signed your name, so I give you credit on that. I am sorry that you felt it necessary to personally attack me - I will try not to attack you personally, but your attacks are so personal and pointless that it may not be possible. Any person who states they get their "enjoyment" from anonymously attacking people, instead of making an effort to help, is a sick puppy. Your statement that these issues are "too complicated for you to understand" is amusing, considering your own words on my work, which I will get too shortly. As to intelligence, I would put my academic credentials against yours anyday, to your disadvantage -- though Essjay is right when he says academic credentials are much overrated! Facts are what matters, and you have none, as I will shortly demonstrate. As to my ability, you yourself put it best: Your work is sound and respected, and you must carry on. (see below for quote from Jerry Dorsen) As to the errors in the article, we can debate the issues all day, and you would lose all day. John Treherne literally went to each jurisdiction and studied the court records for the times and places in question, and found no warrants or complaints - you have to admit that if forty people were fired on, that someone might have filed a complaint? The best records a historian has to go on, and I should not have to tell you this, since you are an attorney, is literally, the record. By that, I mean court records, warrants, in the case of crimes alleged against a person or persons, or at least complaints! You certainly cannot rely on newspaper articles!

By the way, while you babble about my grandmother, my intelligence, etc. I guess you forgot writing this about my work on this article:

"Oldwindybear, I agree with the heartfelt and eloquent note from TruePatriot. You should know that many editors here have been discussing the malicious and utterly unfounded attacks against you, and we have your back. Saltpig will harass you further at his peril. You have my word on that, sir. Not only am I a retired lawyer and sometime administrative judge (with some limited prior work representing veterans, who were unfailingly bold and admirable men and women), but am quite active in several estimable historical venues upon which the penumbra, shall we say, of Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow fall. You may have seen my work at the Dallas Historical Society. In my retired life I have, at one time or another, facilitated in the bonded transport of some notable--and rather surprising--documents pertinent to this great country's founders. Regretfully, I am not at liberty to elaborate. To your role at Misplaced Pages, the truth about Frank Hamer and Bonnie Parker needs to be gotten out there, and you are just the man to do it... at THIS article. It would be a crime if you were to leave these august pages. Your work is sound and respected, and you must carry on. The article would be a shambles if it were not for your leadership and demonstrated acumen. From one Grey Ghost to another, Oldwindybear: Semper Fi. Jerry R. Dorsen, Esq, etc. P.S I will write Katefan0! Believe that! ScrdBldTtd5982 16:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

That was you, Jerry, telling me "the truth about Frank Hamer and Bonnie Parker needs to be gotten out there, and you are just the man to do it... at THIS article. It would be a crime if you were to leave these august pages. Your work is sound and respected, and you must carry on." Talk about forgetting things! This article would be a shambles without my leadership and demonstrated acumen! Remember writing that Jerry? I do. Please explain how my demonstrated leadership and acumen departed -- oh, it was when I disagreed with you! Boy, what a short memory you have, old hoss! Don't write how great I am, then try to write how terrible I am, it just makes you look sillier than you already do.

Back to the facts! Jerry, you, as an attorney, should know at least as well as I do, that the lack of a history of warrants, or even verified complaints from citizens, does negate such claims as the one on the lucerne incident. You simply ignore this, in order to launch personal attacks. Pitiful. YOu know full well if Bonnie Parker had shot someone, there would be SOME record of it somewhere! But there is none, no sworn complaints, no warrants. Period. Unless you have forgotten the basics of legal research - if you have, let me know, and I will send you some insructions on how to do same -- or is deliberately trying to steer people away from the truth. Historical research depends on FACTS, DOCUMENTED FACTS, not speculations and insults. And here are the facts that Jerry does not dispute: he alleges Bonnie and Blance fired on 40 people, and NOT ONE FILED A COMPLAINT??? NOT ONE??? His ability to deattach fact to reality is simply demonstrated in this latest "rant." He would have you believe that two women fired high powered rifles at forty (40) people, and NOT ONE COMPLAINED???? NOT ONE WARRANT WAS ISSUED???? This defies logic, and obviously is a joke. He claims newspaper articles are to be our sources here, not court records -- I guess then Jerry the National Inquirer is a source? not the public records? Please....

I am sorry that you feel the best you can do, is sit and laugh at people who are trying, as best they can, to work on the article. I suggest you POV anything you don't think is supported solidly by facts. I am sort of surprised that you would make this such a personal attack on me, on a discussion page for issues in a wikipedia article. You could have emailed me, and I would have been delighted to discuss this personally - but instead you prefer first anonymous attacks, then finally signing your name as though your "esq." trumps all. It doesn't. Neither does your sarcastic references to my grandmother, or any of your other bile. You cannot defend the lack of any records to substantiate your stance, so you attack the person rather than the issue. You asked about the statements W.D. Jones and Ralph Fults made, that information is carried in John Neal Phillips book,"Running with Bonnie & Clyde: The Ten Fast Years of Ralph Fults." If you want the page number, please, go look it up. It is there. Also, bluntly, you constantly attack people, myself, Kate, but never offer anything constructive for people who are volunteering their time to try to work on these articles. When genuine issues of fact and law are raised, you use a fine vocabulary to hide the plain blunt facts: the best way we can determine whether or not Bonnie Parker shot anyone is the presence of records on same, a warrant for the alleged assault, or at least a verified complaint from a citizen (not my grandmother, or your rather viscious opinions!). In other words, RECORDS, verifiable, real, records, that still exist from that era! John Treherne went searching this country for such records, to try to verify some of the newspaper reports, and could find none. In the absence of these, it has to be concluded that the statements of other gang members, like Jones and Fults, are accurate, and she was a star struck fool who followed around a psychopath.

Finally, you utterly ignore the ultimate question of whether Hamer had the right under the law as it existed at that time to kill a girl not wanted for any capital offense. You ignore that he stated openly that he intended to fire without warning, and had no regard for the nicities of the law. And then, until the coroner stopped him, let people cut off her bloody clothes and hair for souvenirs. You want a quote? Here is a quote from E. R. Milner's book: The coroner, arriving on the scene, saw the following: "nearly everyone had begun collecting souvenirs such as shell casings, slivers of glass from the shattered car windows, and bloody pieces of clothing from the garments of Bonnie and Clyde. One eager man had opened his pocket knife, and was reaching into the car to cut off Clyde's left ear." Quoted from "Death Came Out to Meet them, from The Lives and Times of Bonnie and Clyde, by E.R. Milner. The coroner realized he could not even do his job in a "circuslike atmosphere," and asked Hamer for help. Only then did Hamer order people away from the car, and to stop tearing bloody clothes, et al. Page 147 of Milner's book. You obviously think this conduct is great, I do not. Perhaps if it had happened in Stalin's Russia it would have been legal, but not here.

Thing is, you have a political agenda, a very right wing one. It is okay in Jerry's world to kill someone without any warrant on them for an offense justifying use of lethal force as long as the newspaper articles say she fired a weapon! Never mind that no record exists showing that any citizen actually complained to the police about that, something one might expect them to do! And when people disagree with Jerry's opinions, he attacks them personally, rather than discuss the issues. I should not have to educate you on the law, but obviously I do. The best record is the record; in this case, court records, witness statements, et al.

Despite being an attorney, you are still a Marine, so you may have actually fought for this country. I served during Vietnam, and I fought for a country where due process means more than being shot down in the street without a warrant out on you. Perhaps you think that standard is obsolete, but I do not.

You have at least identified yourself, and I am sorry you are so viscious in your language, and attacks on any user, let alone another veteran. Perhaps that also means nothing to you, it does to most of us. I actually feel sorry for you. You remind me of Clarance Darrow's famous saying, if you have the law, cite it, if you have the facts, recite them, and if you have neither, shout and call names. Having no law, and no facts, and no court records, you shout and call names.old windy bear 19:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

PS. I am done editing the Bonnie and Clyde page. I am working on the Military project for Kirill, (i took my "leadership and demonstrated acumen" as you, Jerry, wrote, and went away from here!) and have no time to bother with arguing with you endlessly. To quote Kate, when you were in one of your anonymous attack modes, fix it yourself if you feel it is so poorly done. I am working on the Mongol Empire, and thank God you are not over there attacking people! If you feel there are errors, correct them. If you attack me here, I will respond, but arguing with you is useless. Like most attorneys, you seize on a tiny error to try and avoid the real questions, such as the absence of records to substaniate the sensationalistic newspaper clippings you use as "proof." Oh, but I forgot: you are depending on ME to tell the "truth about Frank Hamer and Bonnie Parker needs to be gotten out there, and... (I am) just the man to do it... at THIS article." Remember writing that Jerry? You did. ON that same link you so happily display to mock my grandmother. Give this one up Jerry, and go do something positive. Leave this one to my "demonstrated leadership and acumen", as you yourself wrote! Given your own high words of praise for my work, your later bile is particularly silly. You look particularly silly. Is what Hamer did what you served your country for? So that a man could slaughter a girl wanted for no capital offense, committing no crime, and then allow people to cut off her bloody hair and rip her bloody dress for souvenirs? I certainly did not fight for that. I fought for our american way, due process, equal protection -- remember them? Give up jerry, in a battle of wits with me, you are unarmed, and more importantly, without facts, and damned by your own words of effusive praise for me. Sad truth: you have no facts, just an agenda. Sad...old windy bear 19:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

No!

Pig, you are smart enough to make a positive difference -- instead of this silliness, why not do so? I won't dignify your insults by replying -- I proved my manhood long ago, in places you would have run screaming from. But seriously, why not use that mind of yours to make a difference, instead of endless insults??? You don't hurt my feelings, but you waste a lot of time, yours and mine, and Kate's, on what? Stupidity? You are smarter than that! Email me if you want to talk, and we can, but use wikepedia for facts and education! old windy bear 02:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

no Jerry Dorsen

Turns out, alas, there is no "Jerry Dorsen, Esq." who is a retired lawyer and administrative law judge. No one in Texas, where he claims to be such a respected figure, knows him. He appears to be a sock puppet of Salty Pig. old windy bear 21:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

challange to tag by 65.129.187.156

CyclePatPat, since Kate has been challanged on this previously, I thought I would ask you to review. First, anyone who tags without identifying themselves is usually a sock puppet of someone under bann, in this case, I suspect, Salty Pig. If that person challanges the veracity of this article, they did to do so with a scholars accuracy, not the old "all through the page." This article has been worked on for a year, and unless that nameless im identifies, specifically, what sections deserve resvision, and why, i trust the editors will remove their tag. They should not hide behind the false personna of Jerry Dorsen -- a non-existant attorney -- or a nameless im, but specify what is wrong, why, and what sources they cite, or the tag removed until they do. You know better than I what is happening -- vandals such as Pig attack the articles, without legitimate credentials or sources, and expect these tags to stay. I am not an editor, but appeal to one, a darn good one, to judge whether such a tag can be placed by a nameless im without specific allegations of wrong fact, and sourcing for same...thanks Pat! The tag is not only wrong, but without specific allegations and sources. If we allow this, we allow endless chaos, which I believe is their ultimate objective...old windy bear 22:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

User: Katefan0(scribble) I am challanging the tagging of this article with specifics of fact and law, or sourcing of same. it is more of Pig's shenanigans...old windy bear 22:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

User:65.129.187.156 User:216.8.14.51 Until you specify what exactly you are tagging, (not the old Pig "whole talk page" but rather specifics), i will not engage in a revert war, but have asked the editors to decide whether an unknown, unsigned, im, from a banned user can tag an article. This article was the result of a great many people working a lot of hours - if you wish to challange it, do so with a REAL name, not the phony "jerry doresn" trick, or some other sock puppet, but real facts, real sources, et al. old windy bear 03:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

User:65.129.187.156 I have asked Cycle Pat and Kate to look at your challange, made without any specifics, sourcing, or references, which I suspect is another of Pig's sock puppets -- the editors will decide. I believe your vandalism well known, let us let the editor's decide - in the interim, this is moved to discussion page - if I erred, Pat or Kate will straighten me out -no tag is removed by me or anyone else which is backed by sourcing, facts, or references -- you do none of these, but simply once again vandalize the article. As I said, let the editors decide, if I was wrong, they have no trouble telling me}old windy bear 03:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I gladly accept the challenge. May I sugest you do not do anymore reversion because of WP:3RR. If you have a problem it may be a good idea to report it to the vandalism. However, I may sugest just keeping it cool. People will try to do many things to an article. I know you have been having a heated debate about much issues on the talk page. I haven't paid much attention to what the issues are. Asside, Thank you for the invitation Old Windy Bear. I will read over the article to see if I don't see anything for myself. Hopefully in the mean time, the person that nominated this article will stand up and explain. It only seems logical. Simply saying or putting on the dipute tag because of some discusiong that maybe have previously occured, in my eyes, is not the best way to do it. I hence must partially agree with Old Windy's comment and thoughts... that this may be vandalism. Please stand up when you nominate something. We will wait and see what happens. I'm sure we can wait a little, right? In the skeem of all things you only grow stronger from your experiences. (plus you don't want to be blocked because of some technicallity, do you Old windy?) I think that if we assume good faith and trust in God's good will we can only be building a temple of goodness within this article! Let them speak up and throw the first stone. Otherwise allow me and or Katefan to take down the cross the seem to have set up! --CyclePat 03:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)