Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 69.196.139.250 (talk) at 01:28, 5 March 2006 (→Criticisms of the Phrase). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

famous persian jews?

Are Moshe Katzav, Shaul Mofaz and Dan Halutz considered to be "famous persian jews"?

I don't think Dan Halutz is even a Persian Jew. As for the other two, I'm not sure how much they emphasize their Persian roots. Basically, if you want to know if someone is a famous Persian Jew, first make sure he/she is famous. Then ask someone to write a paragraph about him/her. If the paragraph contains the words "Persian" or "Iranian" then that person could be famous Persian Jew. This is certainly the case for Ester. I don't know about Katzav or Mufaz. Aucaman 06:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Dan Halutz is indeed of Iranian origin (both his parents were born in Iran), but he himself was born in Israel and I don't think he has any knowledge of the Persian language (Farsi). Both Moshe Katzav, the current president of Israel, and Shaul Mofaz, the former Chief of Staff of the IDF and the current minister of defense, were born in Iran and are fluent in the Farsi language. There was even a scandle around this during the funeral of Pope John Paul II, where Katzav claimed he spoke to Iranian President Mohammad Khatami in farsi during the occasion.

Are there really only 11,000 Jews remaining in Iran today?

I've heard the number was actually between 25,000 and 30,000. Have the number of Jews living in Iran diminished to only 11,000 in recent years?

The official number is 11,000 but the actual number might be closer to what you're suggesting. Most sources seem to say 11,000. I'm not sure where it's coming from. Aucaman 06:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info.

Criticisms of the Phrase

I removed the following paragraph:

It is strange how the Persian Jews are not accepted. Persians Jews have been in Iran for 2,700 years. That is 90 generations ago. In, addition, they have been in Iran over 1200 years before Islam ever exsisted. Yet, to lots of unaccepting Muslims, they are too different to be regular "Persians". They do not need any acceptance; all Jewish Persians are as Persian as Muslim Persians and Armenian Christan Persians. A simple practice of religion does not affect one's race, yet they are discriminated against.

That may be true, but I think it is irrelevant to a section titled "Criticisms of the Phrase" and its wording strikes me as somewhat patronizing (i.e., non-compliant with the non-POV policy).TheMcManusBro 15:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I am a Persian who is non-religious. I have always felt that the Jews are different and they should leave Iran. Nobody had invited them to Iran in the first place. I have NEVER felt the same way about Armenians. I feel Armenians of Iran are just as Iranian as myself but Jews are different. Armenians contribute to the society. Jews network AGAINST the society. That's the difference. 69.105.39.132 09:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

69.105.39.132 how dare you make such statments. You know nothing about Iran and humnaity to make such disgusting statments. Shame on you for slandering fellow Iranians who are just as much Iranian as anyone else, if not more. They were there before the majority and may even have more archaic Iranian genes. You can not single out Jews or other groups like that. I wonder what you think of Zoroastrians. Shame on you! Readers these statments are made due to the actions of the Israeli government and its attacks on Iran. The funny thing is the majority of Iranians Jews are anti-Zionist. You can not equate Iranian Jews with Israel. The actions of the Israeli government are a vicitimizing force for Jews across the world.

69.105.39.132 a triat of Iranian culture has always been tolerance for thousands of years and respect. I see you are estranged from Iranian culture and values. How dare you write such anti-Iranian (yes it is anti-Iranian because it tears away at the fabrics of Iranian society which Iranian Jews are a part of) statments. 69.196.139.250 01:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hideous nonsense. Jews have been living in Iran longer than a lot of other Iranians. Armenians have only been living in (proper) Iran for the last 100-200 years. Not even comparable. Most Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against simply for political reasons that have very little to do with Iran or Persian Jews. The ones left in Iran (not that many) are kept in such horrible conditions that they can't even network against the country even if they wanted you. You're just giving into Islamic Republic's propaganda. Aucaman 13:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Firstly Armenians have been living in Iran as long as Persians. Armenia was a part of Iran or a vassla of Iran for much of its hisotry and the boundries are unclear. That is an incorect statment. Itranian Jews are an important part of Iranian history and society and any comments against them is an attack on all Iranians. Iranian Jews are also mostly anti-Zionist and against Israel.

2 not 1

I remember seeing a news peice on CNN that said there were TWO jews in Afghanistan, not one. I could be wrong seeing as how this was a couple of years ago, but if anyone has the time to track it down it might be worth looking into.

At least one has since died (it was in the news)... if not both of them... they were both quite elderly. Tomer 07:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

Some recent edits have been rather disturbing:

• Some here tend to think any Jew living in the Persian Empire is a Persian Jew. Unfortunately that's not true. For example Egypt used be part of the Persian Empire, so Egyptinan Jews are Persian Jews? That's why it's important to note that they must speak Persian to be Persian Jews.

• Some also like to suggest that there has been substantial interbreeding between local Persians and Persian Jews, to the effect that one cannot tell the difference between Persian Jews and local Persians. This is also wrong. Although there has been interbreeding, most Persian Jews tend to have certain (linguistic as well as physical) characteristics that distinguishes them from the local populations. In beginning of the 20th century (parallel to the rise of Nazism in Germany), there was widespread Persian literature about these characteristics which classified Persian Jews as "Semites" and not "Aryans"--hence not "real Iranians". Aucaman 04:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Are Persian Jews ethnically Semitic? Are they not Semitic? Has there been "substanstial interbreeding" ("intermarriage" would be a better choice of words) with non-Jews? Mass conversions of non-Jews to Judaism in previous eras? There is no evidence to back any of this up, and it's irrelevant either way. I am, however, curious about this allegedly "widespread" Persian literature classifying Persian Jews as Semites, which I personally find doubtful. There were a few Nazi sympathizers during the 1930s in Iran who bought into their racist propaganda, but they were most definitely fringe. SouthernComfort 15:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the page history, you'd see that people have been trying to add what I explained to be wrong information to the article. That's all I was trying to say. I'm not going to add any of the things I said to the article, so there's no point asking me for evidence. Those who add new information to the article are responsible for providing evidence. Aucaman 07:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

No conversation about Jews that entails a discussion of "interbreeding" can be good... Tomer 01:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This was one of my points.Aucaman 03:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This deals with Persian Jews but I will talk about all Iranian Jews. Let me tell you that there is marriage between Jewish Iranians and both Christian and Muslim Iranians. There have also been many Iranians who converted to Jews and many Jewish Iranians who converted to other religion. There are very few differeance and it is safe to say most Iranian Jews are identical to other Iranians. Another example would be Tats they are Aryan peoples who became Jews and are not Semetic of whole tribes of Kurds. Please do not try to create a Jewish race, because there are Jews from every race. Additionlly last time Iranians checked they never looked any Iranian Jews as different from other Iranians.

Well the use of the word "race" is controversial in any case. What you're saying is not relevant to this article. We're not having a discussion about a "Jewish race" - I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Aucaman 11:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the fact that some people incorrectly are trying to say that Iranian Jews are a different race beacause that is totally on ture. Jewish Iranians are as Iranian as anyother type of Iranian and most would die for Iran.

Conversions during Parthian times

From time to time, there were cases were there would be converts to Judaism, most during the Parthian period.

This is apparently the claim the anon has been insisting upon. Any sources for this? SouthernComfort 01:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Expansion required

This article barely has any information concerning the contemporary life of Persian Jews in Iran. Also, why the inclusion of information and links to Jews in India and Pakistan? Are they related to Persian Jews? The sentence about Aghanistan is also misleading - the vast majority of the Jewish community there fled due to the Soviet invasion (obviously along with many other Afghans). By the time of the Taliban, most were already gone. This same information was in the Afghanistan article until I corrected it with a link to a Washington Post article (primarily revolving around the issue of the single Afghan Jew left there). SouthernComfort 01:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The community dated back 800 years and still numbered 5,000 in 1948, but most remaining families fled the violence and repression that followed the Soviet invasion of 1979. From the article linked above. SouthernComfort 01:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Dzhidi

According to Ethnologue, there were 60,000 Dzhidi-speakers in Israel in 1995. . Does anyone have more recent figures? Also, is the language taught in Israel as well? SouthernComfort 02:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see this post. I remember I found a source saying there were 93,000 Persian Jews in Israel, so I was the who put in the 100,000 estimate (the source was at least 8 years old, so it's even a low estimate). I'll try to find that source and add it in within the next two days. Also, I think the number in the U.S. should be a little higher, but I didn't have to time to do any research on that.

As for the second question, I doubt Persian is taught in any Israeli high schools, but it's probably taught in many universities.

Aucaman 13:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I added a source. Today's numbers are probably above 100,000, but they've been assimilated into the Israeli public. Aucaman 10:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Forced conversions in Pakistan

What is the source of this information? SouthernComfort 02:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything, so I'm going to take it out. Aucaman 11:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

There should be a New Article called Iranian Jews that deals with Tats, Persian Jews, and othe Iranic Jews

An article should be started about Iranian Jews which mentions the historic relations of the Jewish faith with Iranic peoples and includes Persian Jews, Kurdish Jews, Tats, and Lori Jews amongst other Iranian people of Jewish faith.

There are no "Persian" Jews!

Jews and Persians are two different races and ethnicities of their own. The proper term is "Iranian Jews" not "Persian Jews". The article should be renamed to "Iranian Jews". --ManiF 02:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That's not a neutrality or factuality dispute. Both terms are used, and referred to in the introduction. If you want to suggest an article name change, please provide Misplaced Pages policy reasons why it should be done. Jayjg 02:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me add that classfying people by "race" is highly subjective and usually not acceptable. See the race article for more information. Persian Jews speak Persian and share many other cultural traits associated with being Persian. Aucaman 03:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

In Aucaman's words, I have every right challenge the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article, and I have done that. Whatever you do, you're not supposed to take out this tag unless the dispute is solved. In this case, I consider the term "Persian Jews" contridictory and not factual. Th term "Iranian Jews" should be used. --ManiF 04:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

So you think Jews who live in Afghanistan are Iranian Jews? Aucaman 04:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Those are "Afghan Jews", they should have a section of their own. The term "Persian Jew" was coined when "Persia" was the official name of Iran and "Persian" the official nationality. The term "Persian Jew" has no relevance in modern times, the correct name is "Iranian Jew". --ManiF 04:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

We're talking about Jews who spoke Persian. They don't necessarily have anything to do with modern country of Iran. Iran is a modern political term and has nothing to do with Jews living in the Persian Empire 1,000 or 2,000 years ago. Why do you want to call them Iranian? Aucaman 05:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Then you can change the title to "Persian-speaking Jews". The term "Persian Jew" was used to refer to the Jews who were citizens of Persia, it has no relevance in modern times. The correct terms would be "Iranian Jews" or "Persian-speaking Jews". But "Persian Jews" suggests ethnic and racial connections between Persians and Jews when there is none. In that context, a "Persian Jew" would be someone of mixed ethnicity. --ManiF 05:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You don't know what you're talking about. Persian Jews are more than just Persian-speaking. Before the Islamic revolution they were involved in all sort of things Persian. There were Persian Jewish singers, composers, writers, linguists, musicians, etc. There were also Persian converts to Judaism--how can you say they're not Persian? Aucaman 11:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Mani jan, they have been living in iran for almost 2700 years, that makes them more Iranian (Persian) than many of those other people who arrived much later (Turks,...). Needless to say their language is a mixture of Hebrew/Persian. Amir85 18:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Iranian Jewish singers, writers, musicians, etc are still identified as ethnically Jews not Persians. The fact remains that the term "Persian Jew" has no ethnic/racial meaning. Jews and Persians are two different ethnicities and races of their own. However, given the fact that the term "Persian Jew" is simply a noun and an alternative to "Iranian Jew", still in use since the time of "Persia" when "Persian" was also a nationality, I've decided to withdraw my objection. --ManiF 18:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Ya it is a fact of ignorance. Iranian Jews are the smae genetically and in all ways but religon from Iranian Muslims and Christians. The term Persian Jew is write becuase there are other non-Persian Jews, such as Kurdish Jews and Jewish Tats. A lot of these people were not Jewish faith Hebrew immigrants, but converts. There were whol towns in iran that converted or even provinces/principlaities in Kurdistan. The Jewish community in Iran is older than the Muslim community. What you are equating this to is a statment saying Zoroastrian Iranians are not really Iranian or a race.

Persian Jews and all other Jewish Iranians are an important and integral part of Iran and "Iranianism." Persian Jews are ethnic Persians who are Jews. There are also Lori Jews and other Iranian people who are Jewish......... 69.196.139.250 01:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Also user:Acuman you prove how little you know about Iran by stating that iran is a modern political term. Iran is one of the world's oldest entities and was called Iran from the beginning by the Aryans. Iranians never refered to Iran as Persia but always as Iran.