Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ronconte (talk | contribs) at 03:54, 15 March 2006 (removed my old remarks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Let me point out that the Catholic Encyclopedia online, for all its usefulness, was published in 1911. It does not represent the Catholic position given once and for all -- that in itself is a misunderstanding of the Catholic ideal of the "development of doctrine". I am not at all sure that a NPOV means "give a link from two sides of an argument", as though there are only two positions. For instance, to take one NOT AT ALL UNCOMMON misunderstanding, popes does not practice infallibility habitually. MOST statements by the papacy are not taken by anyone, even the most rigid Roman Catholics, as infallible. --MichaelTinkler

New to this list - but great to see the response. Created a page about The Doctrine of Papal Infallibility to go with the "UNOFFICIAL" Pope John Paul II at: http://zpub.com/un/pope/

Here are the comments people have added about Papal Infallibility since August 6, 1998 http://www.greenspun.com/com/zpub/un/pope/infal.html

... I welcome the responses and the chance to participate in this project. - rp

The 'critique' is a tad - ahem - chip-on-the-shoulderish in tone (and spelling). NPOV does demand that wikipedia should present other views, but this one is going to have to be (a) researched (e.g., what bishop said what?) and (b) edited. --MichaelTinkler

Link http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/papal.htm don't work for me. Could somebody correct this ?

This bishop was Joseph Georg Strossmayer iirc. --Taw

Merge

This article needs a history merge with Papal Infallibility and end up here. Luigi30 (Ταλκ) 22:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I disagree. Vatican I and Vatican II did not teach in vacuums. They used technical theological terms that included a lot of meaning in them. If you read the debates at Vatican I and Vatican II, you will see that the bishops gathered there understood exactly what these terms meant, and chose their words very carefully.

Since we cannot assume that Misplaced Pages's audience understands these terms, they need to be explained in detail. Therefore a short phrase in a council document becomes a long description on this page. While I wouldn't have phrased the five bullets in the Papal infallibility#Conditions for papal infallibility in exactly the way they appear here, all of these are indeed required conditions. In fact, there are additional conditions that aren't listed -- such as the need that the pope be freely exercising his judgment (not held at gunpoint). Lawrence King 21:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Update: I edited this section to clarify some points, and remove redundancies. Lawrence King 22:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This point was addressed by my response above.

What you call "my unique ideas" are exactly the conditions for infallibility that you will find in Ludwig Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma", Francis Sullivan's "Magisterium", and any other standard theology textbook. Lawrence King 20:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You truncated this sentence. The rest of the sentence has often been interpreted to include non-revealed matters. THat is in fact how the CDF interprets it in this document signed by Cardinal Ratzinger in 1998: . Section 6 addresses this issue explicitly and section 11 gives several examples of infallible statements in this category. (Non-revealed truths that are taught infallibly are called the "secondary object of infallibility", and are discussed in "paragraph two" of the concluding formula of the Professio Fidei to which Cardinal Ratzinger's commentary refers.)

Read it again. Pay attention to the parts I have put in bold:

The object taught by this formula includes all those teachings belonging to the dogmatic or moral area, which are necessary for faithfully keeping and expounding the deposit of faith, even if they have not been proposed by the Magisterium of the Church as formally revealed. Such doctrines can be defined solemnly by the Roman Pontiff when he speaks "ex cathedra" or by the College of Bishops gathered in council, or they can be taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Church as a "sententia definitive tenenda". Every believer, therefore, is required to give firm and definitive assent to these truths, based on faith in the Holy Spirit's assistance to the Church's Magisterium, and on the Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Again, see the document I linked to. Section 11 specifically lists "the canonization of saints" as falling within the secondary object of infallibility.

"To be definitively held" does refer to infallible teachings, as is clear in the passage I have quoted. If you look at section 10 you will see that the assent required by non-infallible teachings is "religious submission of will and intellect". Lawrence King 20:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The article needs to be rewritten. Also, the section on dissent is too long.

I agree that it seems excessive to include separately "what Methodists believe", "what Reformed churches believe", etc. But I don't feel strongly on this issue either way.

Well, right now it's an encyclopedic description of an idea and the impact it has had on the world. This impact includes reactions to the idea. I don't see why this isn't encyclopedic. Lawrence King 02:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)\

No, I have taken the writings of Cardinal Ratzinger, now the current pope. I am reverting your changes. Lawrence King 20:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's avoid edit war

Before we get into a full-blown edit war, please read the entire document that I linked to: . You will see that Cardinal Ratzinger very carefully and systematically divides doctrines into three categories:

1. Definitive teachings that are part of revelation. Theologians usually call these dogmas. These are discussed in Paragraph One of the Professio Fidei, and in sections 5 and 8 of the CDF document I linked to. These are infallible, as Ratzinger states in section 5. Catholics must accept these teachings with "the assent of theological faith".

2. Definitive teachings that are not included in revelation. Theologians usually call this the secondary object of infallibility. These are discussed in Paragraph One of the Professio Fidei, and in section 6, 7, and 8 of the CDF document I linked to. These are infallible, as Ratzinger states in section 6 (see my quote above). Catholics must accept these teachings with "firm and definitive assent". In section 8, Ratzinger reminds the reader that although # 1 and # 2 differ in the kind of faith involved, "there is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent which is owed to these teachings".

I am looking at many documents, as you know because we have discussed this already. I will list more of them here:

* The "Professio Fidei" itself, which every Catholic teacher on this planet is required to swear to.

* The CDF commentary on the Professio Fidei which I linked to above.

* A commentary published by Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone, when he was Secretary of the CDF: “Theological Observations by Archbishop Bertone,” L’Osservatore Romano, Italian edition 12/20/1996, English edition 1/29/1997.

* The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 88 says that the "fullest extent" of the church's teaching authority is used when either defining a matter in revelation or when defining something that "has a necessary connection" with revelation. These are, respectively, the categories called # 1 and # 2 above.

*The near-unanimous consensus of Catholic theologians. For example:

* Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (the most important pre-Vatican II textbook)

* Francis Sullivan's Magisterium and Creative Fidelity (he was a professor at the most important Catholic university on the planet, the Gregorian University, from 1956 to 1992, serving under five popes as the acknowledged expert in ecclesiology)

* The writings of conservative theologians who study infallibility, such as Germain Grisez, Lawrence J. Welch, Livio Melina, Mark Lowery, Avery Dulles

* The writings of liberal theologians who study infalliblity, such as Hermann J. Pottmeyer, Richard R. Gaillardetz.

All of these sources agree that truths outside of revelation can be taught infallibly. For example, Article 6 of Pope Alexander VII's bull Ad Sacram Beati Petri Sedem (1656) taught infallibly that the propositions listed in Pope Innocent X's Cum Occasione really were in Cornelius Jansen's book, a matter of fact (not revelation) that the Jansenists had disputed.

You are right that if I "only had one source" I might be misunderstanding it. Are all these theologians misunderstanding it? Was Poe Alexander VII misunderstanding it? Lawrence King 23:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

That is false. What do you think the CDF is? It is the Vatican's doctrinal office. Their job is to release doctrinal pronouncements, and there is an entire section on the Vatican website devoted to their documents. This is how the church teaches most of the time. Papal encyclicals are rare.

That is exactly what I am doing. You are the one who insists on taking a passage from Vatican I, a passage from Vatican II, and interpreting them yourself without looking at any other facts. Lawrence King 23:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

3. Non-infallible teachings. These are discussed in Paragraph One of the Professio Fidei, and in section 10 of the CDF document I linked to. Although these are not infallible, Catholics must accept these teachings with "religious submission of will and intellect.".

In section 11, there are examples of each of these kinds of teachings. Canonization of saints is included among those of type # 2, and are therefore (according to Ratzinger) infallible. Lawrence King 20:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Clearly you haven't read anything I wrote above. I cited the Catechism, several CDF documents, documents from two popes, and nine different theologians. If you aren't going to be reasonable then I have two choices: an edit war, or abandoning this page. I choose the latter. This page is yours; feel free to edit it however you want. Lawrence King 21:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Views of Reformed Churches

The whole part about the Pope being the Antichrist has been removed from the Reformed version of the Westminster Confession for some time now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.110.131.181 (talk • contribs) 01:05, 20 February 2006.

You should update that section, then! Lawrence King 04:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)