Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Stifle (talk | contribs) at 13:10, 28 March 2006 (Arbcom violation). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

*Archive 1
*Archive 2

Advice

Glad to hear you're doing better. If you want my advice of the matter, I'd first say you should take things one point at a time. Changing all of them makes it much more susceptible to a revert because of individual changes. I recognize the location issue is the most important to you (though I think it is for DG as well). So here's how I see it. Disambigs are primarily used for navigational aid between Misplaced Pages articles, not ideas. So, if the topic is truly that important, the location theory, perhaps you should write an article about it. This would present the theory NPOV-ly with its detractors and supporters. If you are up to that (which is, after all, more important for the encyclopedia than battling over a disambig), and it might need to survive an AfD, then it would need to be in the disambig. Without an article, the case for it's inclusion seems more strained, since it's seems to be overreaching out of POV. Dmcdevit·t 08:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Moving the dragon

The procedural concerns are valid (though see my points in the archived discussion) but there was a reasonably solid majority for the form I preferred. By the admin's count the vote went 21/15 in favor of it and after that it was discovered the User:CDThieme had voted with his sockpuppets, bringing the human vote on one side down a few notches.

On the other hand this really wasn't worth spending so much time on and I probably should just have let Jonathunder have his way at the time and spent the time writing articles instead of arguing about spelling. - Haukur 22:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Like many proceedural points, this has substantive implications, however. It has now been demonstrated that someone can unilaterally move an article between the Anglicized and Icelandic spellings, and be fairly sure any appeal to WP:RM will result in no consensus. And remember, this works for moves in both directions.

I expect this to happen again. Whatever the merits of the present case, I think this is a bad thing. It means a lot of futile WP:RM discussion, and it will not encourage comity. The way to suppress it is to establish a custom of status quo ante, so that the unilateral move will have no advantage over the proper course: bringing such moves to WP:RM in the first place. Septentrionalis 17:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your point and I too think that Process is Important. But I would really like not to go deeply into this again. Jonathunder and I have since had rapprochement and the next time a debate occurs it will hopefully be in a more cordial atmosphere and I think we will at the very least manage to agree on procedural issues. For the record I don't want to push my views through some bureaucratic or procedural loophole against the will of the community.

The procedural issues were discussed at length at the time. If you have the patience for it, and I wouldn't really recommend it since it makes for aggravating reading, most of that discussion can be found in Talk:Níðhöggr/archive1, Wikipedia_talk:Requested moves/Archive_5#Gaming_the_system and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive56#CDThieme_sockpuppetry.

Incidentally I'd like to invite you to give your view at Talk:Grœnlendinga saga on the name of the article. All the best. - Haukur 23:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, one more link from the procedural discussion Though, as I implied, there are a lot of more fun and productive things to do than wading through this. - Haukur 23:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

answer

I've answered your question at the bottom of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections January 2006/Candidate statements/Netoholic. Hope that clarifies my position. -- Netoholic @ 19:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

R. J. Rummel

Thanks yes I read the answer by Septentrionalis, but as I had not moved the mouse over the name I did not realise that Septentrionalis was an alias for User:Pmanderson. I have not replied to you posting there because I think you have answered all my questions on the issue. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Can I get some back up. I read WP:BIO and R.J. Rummel is non-notable under WP criteria. You know who keeps deleting the tag. --Scaife Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 02:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing for nor against Rummel. I just stumbled across the link, and having, years ago taken some classes and interest in criminology and genocide, thought the figures were suspect. I Googled the fellow's name and he seems, as I said, a LaRouchie type nut. But, more than politics, it seems like the fellow is trying to sidestep history and lay claim to a field of study just by coining a term--whether or not his stats are correct. Obviously, Ultramarine is a colleague of this guy, and will defend him no end. I've too many interests to worry over it, but obviously others feel this Rummel is some sort of plaudits stealer. Thanks for the warning, though. NormalGoddess 22:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back

I just noticed your return. Welcome back! -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've always regretted the decision of registering under my real name, so I changed my username as soon as I found out it was possible. Other than that, I'm trying to figure out a way to keep up with my watchlist... -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Just noticed that you were back today, again, welcome back - your contribution is always welcome at the Democratic Peace Theory page, which has gone rather quiet recently and even, believe it or not, been labeled as a good article! Robdurbar 13:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, on a mostly unrelated subject, you might want to take a look over this AfD vote on a POV fork. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 03:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine

I have to go on what I feel when I recuse. I can't just go on what seem to be the facts. If I can't make a fair decision I need to recuse. I wrote the original article which contained prominent links to totalitarianism and dictatorship and addressed the massive human rights violations which have resulted from Communist Parties seizing power without democratic support. The current article seems to me pathetically lame, being barely factual and essentially unsourced. I don't think much of Ultramarine as an editor, but not much of his opponents either. There was very good reason to recuse. I was so upset that I created a fork, originally spending my own money on hosting. There is no way I could have been fair to anyone involved. Fred Bauder 14:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

DPT

Sorry, I wasn't aware that edits on this page were ongoing. Robdurbar 17:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well Im not gonna argue over the redirects though I worry as to whether there'll just be another edit war on this article... Robdurbar 10:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, Im happy for you to make the changes... I must admit I would have created an article 'studies concerning the dpt' rather than 'stuides supporting the dpt', but hey ho :) Robdurbar 17:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry mate - you're probably right - but as you can probably tell, I've lost patience with the whole situation (plus Im wasting all time having on List of best-selling music artists which seems to get vandalism on a more-than-daily basis) Robdurbar 23:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that the DPT article may be a lost cause. It seems as though Ultramarine is insistent in deifying R.J. Rummell to the point that the article has lost its objectivity. If it were up to me the article would be scrapped and redone altogether in order to show both points of view. As I have demostrated on the talk page for DPT, it seems as thought this user is wholly against NPOV in this case, perhaps so much so as to be vandalism? -- Scaife 19:53, 06 February 2006 (UTC)

I tagged it for deletion with the understanding that someone will probably take it off essentially negating it. The intent is to get a conversation going. -- Scaife 20:10, 06 February 2006 (UTC)

With reference to what you worte me, I am afraid that the Bremer article that you referenced is unavailable on JSTOR, so it might be awhile before I can collect it at the library. However, on pg 337 of the Bremer article on the DPT page states that although he believes that the dyadic theory has proven that democracy is an important factor in eliminating conflict, more studies should be under taken to understand completely what the mechanism is... BTW this is an awfully obscure reference, what gives? -- Scaife 22:55, 08 February 2006 (UTC)

Chimaera

Thank you, Septentrionalis, for alerting me to the mediation process; I did post quite a detailed comment yesterday at about teatime, but today I see that it is non-existent. Anyway luckily it seems it wasn't crucial to the outcome. TobyJ 15:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Single anon edit VfD pages

Hi. I want to point out that the single anon edit VfD pages which I've nominated for deletion are not real "deletion records", but only appear to be because of their titles. No debate or discussion occurred on any of these pages, so they were probably never linked from the articles or transcluded to the VfD page. Certainly no deletions resulted from them, as no votes were cast. BDAbramson T 14:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• Are you suggesting that deletions were ever decided on the basis of a single anon edit? With no other commentary, even from the person making the deletion? Actually I do know something about old VfD's - they were made in templates not in Misplaced Pages space, because the old wiki code would not permit transclusion of pages. These, therefore, were initially created in the wrong space! BDAbramson T 16:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Chaos theory and counting!

Hi, I answered your question there. Lakinekaki 05:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

If you responded to me elsewhere, you need not reply here. Septentrionalis 05:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Too many dubious afd descisions

That's odd. I don't recall having made many AFD descisions at all, especially not in the last half year or so. I'm puzzeled! What did I do wrong, and how can I fix it in future? Kim Bruning 20:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, my first, last, and only foray into TFD. The template in question did violate policy, but people opposed its being speedied. I've mostly stayed away from most templates since then, since many templates do not contribute to the encyclopedia directly anyway.

Thanks for reminding me of that set of mistakes. I would like to point out that people who try to regularly get things done will also regularly make mistakes, as an unfortunate consequence (I'm not a politician, as you may have noticed :-) . I hope that you're reassured that I do actually learn from my mistakes, and try not to make them again. Kim Bruning 21:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if it hadn't seemed heavy handed, it wouldn't have been a mistake. I finally reached a consensus with the creator of the template, who wasn't at all unhappy with me. What I hadn't reckoned with was the altered perception of admins on wikipedia. Before, admins were just nice users who'd earned some extra buttons (or at least were trusted not to blow up the wiki with them). Now apparently they're demigods (or minor demons). Seeing as I'll just be on the reserve bench by the looks of it, I hope to be able to work on that latter problem in the coming year, if possible. :-) Have a nice evening! Kim Bruning 21:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Oof, it's been a long time for me too. More than 3 months for sure. If I come across it, I'll drop you a line. Kim Bruning 22:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Wait, found here. Actually one of 2 situations might come to mind: either: Misplaced Pages:Conlangs/Votes or Template:Vote_bar. The latter being kept is a little tricky, as it needs to be watched carefully. :-/ Kim Bruning 22:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman provinces

In most cases I agree with your concerns about long running names and standardisation. However, there is precedent for standardised place-names as with cities in the USA. And the Ottoman subdivisions present particular problems. First, there is the case of these province names overlapping with different provinces of other countries of the same name especially those in present-day Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. For example, the Ottoman Basra, Baghdad, or Mosul provinces were radically different beasts from the current Iraqi “provinces” and some of the provinces are now their own country (Egypt, Cyprus). I would agree with the use of vilayet but most of the provinces were eyalets before the mid-19th century and some used other terms (e.g. khedivate) as well as the informal term “pashaluk.” See Subdivisions of the Ottoman Empire for details. LuiKhuntek 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

About Özi Province, you say that “calling something that included Bessarabia "Silistra Province" is just wrong.” I’m not sure what this means but the Ottoman Silistra eyalet existed for over 100 years and included the Black Sea coast from Istanbul to present-day Ukraine and at times stretched all the way to Vidin. Only one source calls it only Özi (Imber) and others explain that Özi was an alternate name for Sislistra. Özi could not have been used consistently since the Ochakiv (Özi) area was often outside of the eyalet system. Maps of this can bee seen at:

or in Paul Robert Magocsi’s Historical Atlas of Central Europe. (2nd ed.)

Donald Edgar Pitcher’s An Historical Geography of the Ottoman Empire has both maps and a text explanation of this (p.128) that cites original Ottoman records. LuiKhuntek 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

“Province of Timişoara” doesn’t use a Turkish/Romanian hybrid – it’s the current English form. None of the other provinces use the Turkish form for areas now outside of Turkey. (e.g. Bosnia, Herzegovina, Egypt, Baghdad) (And it’s no more anachronistic than Serbia for Servia, Kosovo for Kossovo, Rumelia for Roumelia, Romania for Rumania, etc.) LuiKhuntek 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Economics of fascism

That article is a POV mess from start to finish. It relies almost exclusively on libertarian authors and is slanted in their favour. The comparisons with the New Deal are just the worst part of it. But I've learned my lesson from the whole Ultramarine affair. This time, I'll look for a large collection of sources first, then go in to fix the article. Expert POV pushers, like Ultramarine and RJII (the author of the Economics of fascism article) use similar strategies: They support their POV by selectively quoting the sources that agree with them, and then arrogantly claim that their POV is widely accepted opinion (witness RJII saying in the Talk page that most historians believe the New Deal was economic fascism). Thus, the best way to counter them is to amass a large number of sources that oppose their POV. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 10:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting on Eyalet of Temeşvar

I added another rename proposal to Talk:Eyalet of Temeşvar that preserves the Turkish name: Eyalet of Temeşvar → Temeşvar Province, Ottoman Empire

Please (re-)vote if you care to.

LuiKhuntek 07:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sale of the Daily Express

I have added some thoughts on the date of transfer of the Express to Beaverbrook on Talk:Cyril Arthur Pearson. Perhaps you'd like to take a look when you get the chance. Regards, BillC 00:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Menander

Hi, I saw that you are trying to update the article of Menander the greek commediographer, I'm very interested about greek litterature in general and drama specifically, I would if you'd like expand a bit Menander, i wrote some on menander talk things that I will do if you agree. Thanks for any of your replies. Salutem Filippus dat--Philx 13:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

I have expressed my opinions on the article talk page, if you agree , i'll start that section. --Philx 19:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not the best possible for the reader, although including English translations in a bibliography should make that all right. But why not write the article for the Italian wikipedia first, and then translate, which should save both of us a bit of work, and show what you have in mind? Septentrionalis 19:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if i bother you, but honestly, I can't get, your point, should I translate the critics of italian wiki because critics is present there? So why not start a new section in en wiki adding italian soureces and english ones? Thank you for any reply --Philx 20:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Phil, I think he means, why dont you translate the work into Italian first on the Italian Wiki, then translate that into English and move it over here to the En Wiki. If you want me to help on this part, plz let me know. Ciao for now--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 02:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi septemtrionalis, I understood your point of view about the sources, i'm trying to recover the soureces in it wiki, when i'm done with the sourcing and wikification i'll start to translate, Regards. --Philx 13:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for voting!

Hello there! I wanted to thank you for taking the time to vote on my arbitration commitee nomination. Although it was not successful, I appreciate the time you spent to read my statement and questions and for then voting, either positively or negativly. Again, thank you! Páll 22:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Administrative divisions of the JAO

Hi, Pmanderson! Thanks for moving the JAO divisions article to the "the"-version; that was totally my mistake. I was wondering, however, if you would be able to help me resolve another problem of the similar kind. I am not completely sure if a definite article is needed with the names of Russian krais and oblasts (such as Primorsky Krai or Tambov Oblast). On one hand, it should be used (e.g., in the French Republic→in the Primorsky Krai); on the other hand the Primorsky Krai sounds quite silly (at least to me, but I am not a native speaker). I was unable to find any definitive guidelines regarding this, and Google returns both variants (with most of the hits being from the English-language Russian websites anyway). Any advice will be much appreciated.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 16:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It has generally been accepted to use "krai" and "oblast" instead of "territory" and "province". This is partly because there are no established English translations of both words ("territory" and "province" are by far the most commonly used equivalents, but they are not by any means standard), and partly because in reverse translation "territory" corresponds to Russian "территория" (territoriya), and "province"—to Russian "провинция" (provintsiya), which are separate words on their own, both of which have subsets of meanings competely unrelated to the meanings of the words "krai" and "oblast". Provintsiyas also used to be administrative subdivisions of Russia in the past, which certainly does not help matters as far as translation of modern terms is concerned.

As for the examples, here are some:

• A common construction: the government of (the?) Primorsky Krai, (the?) Tambov Oblast, (the?) Belgorod Oblast... (a complete list of Russian federal subjects can be found here).
• Standard article intro: (the?) Lipetsk Oblast is a federal subject of Russia (an oblast)...
• a fairly common sentence construction: This oblast borders the Republic of Mordovia, (the?) Vladimir Oblast, (the?) Tula Oblast,... Here, "the" before the "Republic of Mordovia" is obvious, as it would be if constructs like "the Oblast of Tula" and "the Krai of Khabarovsk" (cmp. with "the state of California") existed (they do not).

An interesting part is that when "oblast" is replaced with "province" (and "krai"—with "territory"), the definite article sounds a lot more natural: the Tula Province, the Stavropol Territory, but it still probably is incorrect (cmp. with the Wisconsin State, which sounds plain wrong unless it's a part of a construct such as the Wisconsin State Lottery).

I don't know if these examples are going to help, but if you could look into this, I'd certainly much appreciate it. My English isn't too shabby, but little things like this are what separates native and non-native speakers, and articles have long been a personal weakness of my own. I am somewhat afraid, however, that this may require help of a professional English teacher/educator. Reference materials certainly have not been of much help so far.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 21:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Re:Democratic_peace_theory#Poland-Lithuania

Tnx for letting me know - I'll take a look and surely comment in a few hours!--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:16, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Rodney Stark

Could you please help to write a biography. I wrote him an e-mail and requested him to release a picture of him to be released under GDFL. Andries 21:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Your sig

Why does your signature read a different name? Just wondering. Infinity0 22:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Aristarchus

Thank you for taking the time to answer each and every point. If I ever stumble on a serious argument in wikipedia, I will seriously consider asking for your assistance (with the danger of not agreeing with my point - for sure).--FocalPoint 10:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Pmanderson/David Dailey

Done. —Cryptic (talk) 04:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll speedy it in 24 hours. Septentrionalis 04:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

AN/I

The administrators' noticeboard is somewhat outside my scope as mediator, you're basically requesting outside assistence and advice when you post there.

However, since no one has seen reason to respond and it's already halfway up the page, I've simply removed that section. <innocent look> I take it it shan't be missed.  :-) Kim Bruning 20:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It's stored in the page history, just before 20:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC) Kim Bruning 20:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Re:The Sejm and most wars.

If I find any references, you'll be the first to know, but my search is drawing blanks here. Nonetheless most is correct, as Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618) is a good example of a war which was not voted down by Sejm.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion review#List of interesting or unusual_place_names

Further to your views on the undeletion, you may be interested that the page was relisted on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of interesting or unusual place names (2nd nomination). Regards--A Y Arktos 07:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Dubious Rummel

Actually he worked on the Correlates of War project with Singer. He took the observations that Singer had made and then codified it into what constitutes a liberal democracy and war, as well as expanding the time frame. I included the references, and this is how I read it. If you read it differently, let's change it. --Scaife 00:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Democratic peace theory

As you probably already know, I archived the talk page because it was a bit too cumbersome and most of the converstaions were dead. Well you know who has decided to crusade about it. Let me know what you feel about it, I think that you can just make a link to the prior discussion or start another one. I wasn't starting anything but he sure thinks I was "gaming the system". I hate Poindexter... BTW I am not getting on this thing for awhile, I am really irritated about this. --Scaife 08:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Any thoughts on this? You missed alot of fun last night. Look at my talk page I saved some of it. Cheers! --Scaife 19:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I kind of changed my mind. I was seriously getting irritated last night before Mr. West got on and supported me. Other sections were deleted, but if you look throught the history he was threatening me, browbeating me and making the most inane arguments over semantics. I emplored with him over the span of 4 hours to do exactly what you said. I even returned some of the other articles to compromise, but he could not be satisfied. I really only archived those sections that had either been dead for 7 days or were resolved. If he keeps up, I might initiate another arbitration. This behavior is very disruptive and I am tired of being accused of conspiring against him all the time. I propose that the DPT article is merged with R.J. Rummell and then I can turn my attention to Mother Teresa. :D --Scaife 19:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

So now, DPT has lost its second mediator: UM refused the first, and drove off the second. What do we do now? I mean, we were actually getting somewhere for a while on producing an article. I suppose it couldn't last. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

See my comments on User Talk:ScaifeRobert A.West (Talk) 16:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Private Message

Look at your alumni account for an urgent private message. See also Margaret Garner. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Faucounau

Hi, I noticed you got involved with this guy at Phaistos disk and Pelasgians who seems so addicted to that Faucounau "Proto-Ionian theory". I feel I have to warn you, in all likelihood this is one of the lesser-desired spillovers from Usenet. There is strong evidence that this anon user is none other than the Usenet persona "grapheus", who in turn is believed by most people on Usenet to be none other than Faucounau himself. Look here: Stylistic comparison between grapheus and Faucounau, and you'll probably recognize a pattern. If my suspicion is correct, there's little hope for him to ever produce anything useful, "grapheus" is an absolutely fanatic, inveterate, single-minded POV-pushing crank. Lukas 17:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

My first requested undeletion! The last version before its second deletion is at User:Pmanderson/proto-Ionian theory as requested :-) - David Gerard 22:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt that User 80.90.57.154 is the same as grapheus. At 15 February 2006 80.90.57.154 was posting with the IP 80.90.39.81 Phaistos_Disc:history. The same did grapheus at groups.google.com. Be warned! Gbrunner 23:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

In reply to your question about the linguistic side: I don't know much about it, but there was indeed a long debate about the pre-history of the dialectal divisions between the Greek dialects. There's a fairly accessible summary in the first chapter of G. Horrocks, Greek: A history of the language and its speakers, 1997, ISBN 0-582-03191-5. IIRC, it's much more complex than a simple opposition between a "Risch-Chadwick" and a "Kretschmerian" theory. Risch and Chadwick were prominent participants in that debate, that much is true. The undeleted article is basically correct in describing the "Proto-Ionian theory" as a fringe thing mostly unheard of outside the internet activities of "grapheus"/Faucounau. BTW, that style comparison I quoted wasn't mine, but I still think it's brilliant, and thanks to Gbrunner for providing that further piece of evidence. Lukas 08:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to thank you for your contributions to Phaistos disk, especially actually reading Faure -- I had been putting off going to the library.... At this point, it would seem that the best policy is simply to declare consensus and ignore anon. --Macrakis 22:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine

Haha. Yeah, he appear to be a typical troll. I'm currently involved in several important edit so I don't have time to engae him. I might come back when I have time. Best way is to bait him to violate something obviously out of NPOV. See ya. ~

I cannot agree, especially with the personal attack . Ultramarine is usually editing in good faith; he merely regards all means as justified when Proclaiming the Rummellite Truth.Septentrionalis 16:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice your reply. He certainly isn't a vandal troll. But his profile page make it clear that he revel in edit war. And his type is very annoying. My external link was meant to be humourous. For one, we are both assuming that he is a male and not old. It's must be a hormone thing. FWBOarticle

Phaistos Disc

I have seen your last changes at Phaistos Disc. Did you really want to do this work for every attempt? svoronan lists 50 to 60 attempts until now. I fear we will get a new article at the end of this hard work.

(BTW for Faucounau you will need: A-side first; reading inwards; A-side begins Template:Polytonic...) Kadmos 22:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at my sandbox. Feel free to edit. Kadmos 03:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Answer: H. --> S. --> F.: To say "based upon" is maybe to strong. But see yourself:

S. starts: "Last Jaunaury (1911) there appeared in Harpers Magazine an essay by Proffesor Hempl, ... we who follow follow reap the advantage of his labour, ..."

F. starts his book from 1999: "A la mémoire de Florence Melian Stawell qui pressentit, la première, la solution de l'énigme."

Between two of them there is only a subset of symbols with a similar meaning/interpretation. For instance H. and S. start in A I with Α/α. But such similarities exist. Never mind, it's not really important. Kadmos 05:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I have requested for unprotection. (I use this account only for the battle with our anon. Therefore the disclaimer at my talk page.) Kadmos 08:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Seems that I was to late. Sorry for that. Kadmos 19:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Democratic Peace Theroy SHE

To be honest, part of my motivation for deleting was to remove the article from my watchlist. I don't feel I have the requesit expertise in the DPT to get invovled - in hindsight my contributions to the page were probably a bit 'clueless newbie'-esque, and I'm happy to be away from the whole thing. Robdurbar 17:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Democratic peace theory (Specific historic examples)

Regarding the AfD for Democratic peace theory (Specific historic examples): could you please provide a link to the previous AfD? Aecis 19:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Knight

What do you by idealogy, when you mentioned it on the Knight article discussion page? Why do you say that?Zmmz 05:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

WHEELER

I noticed you reverted WHEELER at History of Sparta. He has been adding links to his highly original essays to a number of our articles. Due you think you could have a word with him? He seems convinced that I am the embodiment of evil, so my messages have not had much effect. - SimonP 01:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes I see that you two have your own history. Don't worry then, if this continues I'll leave a note at AN/I and try to get a neutral party that way. - SimonP 01:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Aeneas

Actually, while I agreee that the legend of Aeneas as a founding legend doesn't have a great deal to do with the objective history of the Roman republic, it is important in that it ties the Roman culture into the Hellenistic one - at least in the minds of the Romans.

Were the article The History of the Roman Republic (which will probably be calving off soon), just about the history, then I'd agree. However, since the article is supposed to be an overview of all aspects of the Roman republic, tying it all together is imporant.

I realize that the section on Roman culture hasn't been written for that article yet, but the hooks are there to tie in the sections when someone finally gets around to it. - Vedexent 21:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Why do you seem to have an aversion to mentioning the Roman's view of their own historical origins? More to the point, why take out any reference to the founding of the city at all? Histories start at the beginning. If you don't like how a section is written up, then edit it for valid reasons. Ripping out relavant sections completely is not a good thing. If you want to discuss the origins and founding of the city in different terms - say 1/2 archeological 1/2 mythical - that I can see. Blanking that part and pulling the Monarchy period out of some nebulous "once upon a time" seems sloppy to say the least. If there is no certainty, you place the various contending viewpoints together, you don't rip the issue out. - Vedexent 01:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I can only say that I agree with Vedexent. You are simply ripping out stuff that is important, if one is to understand the view the ancient roman had about themselves, without giving any good reasons. Flamarande 01:12, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway/Workshop

I have just done a massive refactoring of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway/Workshop, in order to

• remove personal attacks, irrelevant comments, and bickering
• make the page readable and usable for the arbcom, as at its previous size of 183KB, it was not.

As your words appear on that page, I'm letting you know so that you may review the changes. I have tried not to let any bias or POV I may have color my summaries; however, it's a wiki, so if you think I've misrepresented your words, please fix them. Wearily yours, Mindspillage (spill yours?) 08:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway/Workshop (Again)

I have just readded three proposed remedies to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway/Workshop, which had been removed. I have also refactored these comments to

• remove personal attacks, irrelevant comments, and bickering
• make the page readable and usable for the arbcom, as Minspillage recently has done.

As your words appear on that page, I'm letting you know so that you may review the changes. I have tried not to let any bias or POV I may have color my summaries; however, it's a wiki, so if you think I've misrepresented your words, please fix them. Respectfully yours, InkSplotch 14:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Roman Republic

Did you read Talk:Roman_Republic#Self-sufficient sections? You didn't respond, you just reverted the change without comment. - Vedexent 01:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Good point, you're right - I apologize, I incorrectly characterized the change. It's also been suggested that the founding myth be migrated in the Roman Kingdom article, which leaves a single myth, in the Roman Republic, which probably could get rolled back into the article as a single sentence and a {{see|Lucretia}} template. Hasn't happened yet, but that would cut out two sub-section paragraphs and add only a sentence and a link - Vedexent 02:02, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess my point was that discussions of the Roman founding myths can be moved offpage. I recognize that an in-depth discussion of the founding or monarchy period doesn't belong on the Republc page - I just think it's useful to a "new reader" to have a brief synopisis of "what has come before this point". Unfortunatly, with Roman history it's hard to talk about without referencing "myth-history".

Personally, I think the existence of the Founding of Rome article is a godsend, as it allows a brief 1-2 paragraph mention of the founding, and a link to a more in depth article for those that are interested. I havn't seen a similar article for the overthrow of the monarchy, just the Lucretia article, which isn't really history. The Roman Kingdom article could be such an article if I had a section on the mythical overthrow - or perhaps a totally new article Fall of the Roman Monarchy in the same vein as the Founding of Rome article?

In the larger scope of things I think the article can be "pared down" by migrating much of the historical material to a History of the Roman Empire article, and having the 4.x level topics (in the numbered TOC) summeraized by a paragraph or two, with links to the appropriate section of the History article. - Vedexent 17:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Tenedos and Imbros

Thanks for the heads-up on that. I didn't have the page on my watchlist, so hadn't noticed that the subject was being reopened. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Put in my $.02. Robert A.West (Talk) 07:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Curiously, de:Pennsylvanien is a redirect to de:Pennsylvania. This is the opposite of what I would expect, and I find it mildly irritating. The article appears to be a clone of the English-language article, which may explain it. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

sock- or meatpuppetry

It remains a hypothesis, but I think it is safe to say that 80.90=grapheus is J. Faucounau. (see here). this reply, in a disconcertingly familiar attempt at sarcasm

grapheus has HELPED J.F. to write his (very rare!) papers in English

Now considering Rose-mary, I have no doubt that this user would not hesitate a second to make up cock-and-bull stories as he goes along, and for this reason it seems most probable that he is, after all, J.F. If he isn't, he as at least admitted that he and Faucounau are "old friends" and that he "helped him write his papers in English", so that he would at the very least qualify as a meatpuppet. French academia is a bitch. The top bananas go berserk if anyone questions their dignity, and the amateurs do their best to imitate them. Grapheus has been keeping going on usenet for years without getting tired of his game. Faucounau has gone and sued people about their statements towards grapheus on usenet. We are dealing with a beautiful specimen of the proverbial crank :) dab (ᛏ) 20:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

loyal niece, maybe :) I see no indication that Faucounau's Greek is above a good highschool level, though. He emphasizes the ā to ē thing (which is explained with the first declension in any introductory Greek grammar). He shows no appreciation of how implausible his linguistic claims are. His decipherment is heavily based on Homeric Greek. I am sure that any good crossword solver can come up with a reading of the Phaistos disk in any language, given a decade or two of fiddling with syllable values. Faucounau happened to start out with the Homeric lexicon, had he started out with Biblical Hebrew, he would now be pestering us with a "Proto-Phoenician" theory. If he is an amateur linguist, he is quite amateurish. I think grapheus' apparent lack of understanding of JF is more a problem of his English. We should try editing the French article, we would then soon find out about his ability to represent JF in French :) dab (ᛏ) 21:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

well, of course, it is perfectly possible that the Disk language is Greek, and that there was a Mycenaean-Ionic division already at the time the Disk was made. It's just that JF's work doesn't go a tiny step towards proving anything of the sort. I mean, 3000 BC, constellations, Pelasgians and the Phaistos Disk, give me a break, it sounds like a parody of bad scholarship :oD dab (ᛏ) 21:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I thought nobody in his right mind would endorse this stuff in REG :) "Sea-faring Ionians in 1500 BC", well, we don't need M Faucounau to tell us that, it would be pretty much the natural assumption that "Southern" dialects began to split around that time. If they didn't immigrate as distinct dialect groups in the first place. In 2000 BC that is, there is nothing that would point to a 3000 BC immigration. After a separation of 2000 years, the language would have diverged so far from Doric that it would not have been readily recognizable as cognate. Jesus Christ, I have JF's 2001 book in front of me, it's a joke, all he does is re-assert over and over again that "all evidence points to Proto-Ionians". Except that his assertions are the only thing that do... dab (ᛏ) 21:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

right you are, I'm off to bed. I think I am wasting so much time here because I am secretly attracted by the cranky mindset, it has a something je ne sais quoi, absurd and surrealist, essentially human. There is a raving kook in each of us I am sure... regards, dab (ᛏ) 22:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Template:Otherarticles

A useless template (IMO, of course) needs not be replaced. Nothing in the TfD guidelines states that a template can only be replaced, never deleted. Note criteria #1, and hey, even #2, it's redundant to the category list. --Golbez 20:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Then defend it as well as you are with me. Convince the community it's needed. --Golbez 21:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack and very serious unsourced accusations against a living person

Septentrionalis, you seem to want that Misplaced Pages should contain personal attacks and very serious unsourced accusations against a living person. Please do not continue with this. Ultramarine 15:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Please reconsider

First, you are correct about Finland, but your blind revert was completely unwarranted. In the light of the Nuremberg Laws of 1935, it is totally wrong to imply any continuity of the Universal suffrage in Germany and Nazi-occupied lands. BTW, how did Finland fared Universal suffrage-wise during WW2? Please edit the article accordingly before I or someone else does. Second, your comment shows dire need to read WP:AGF and WP:CIV. Cheers. ←Humus sapiens 06:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

MarkSweep RFC

I am close to neutral on the Userbox issue, but I agree that MarkSweep should, at a minimum, be dequired to reapply for adminship. I don't see why this isn't an Arb case; I've just been through one and don't want the trobule, or I'd statrt one. Let me know if I can help. Septentrionalis 21:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It certainly looks like that will be necessary - under the constraints of WP:AGF I don't think taking either of the other two to ArbCom would be of any value (especially since DocGlasgow has made a genuine attempt to create a consensus-based policy that will solve the whole userboxes thing, and 'dispute resolution' is the point of this process after all), but I would welcome an RFAr on MarkSweep, especially since he's still doing it Cynical 21:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Proto-Ionians

I did read JF; I deserve to have some fun out of it.

my thoughts exactly :) good job dab (ᛏ) 07:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Myson of Chen AfD

Hi Septentrionalis, I hope you don't mind my opposing your AfD nomination. It seems to be swinging "my" way right now. I'm a rather strong inclusionist when it comes to obscure classical topics (just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Brykhon); when all those classical and Byzantine writers and copyists and compilers took so much trouble saving some obscure name from "the ever-flowing stream of time that washes away everything into the abysses of oblivion", then I think it only fair if Misplaced Pages does what it can to stem the tide! :-) Just out of curiosity, I don't really know anything about this Wikinfo vs Misplaced Pages thing, could you explain a bit why you felt taking over the article from Wikinfo was a bad idea? Cheers, Lukas 14:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. I can see your point now. However, I don't really think it's necessary to worry that much about this copyright notice. Why should material taken over from a GFDL-released foreign project (by the same author who created it on both sites) be treated any differently from material created under GFDL by any other editor within Misplaced Pages? If I write an article and my text later gets completely superceded, then my previous authorship is no longer visible, but still recoverable and credited in the page history. Why should the same not be sufficient for the Wikinfo authorship, which (as far as I understand) has exactly the same legal status? Just as an example, anybody could at any time have gone and boldly redirected the page, to Seven Sages of Greece or anywhere else. That way, the copyright notice would have been made invisible too. Would anyone argue that the presence of the copyright notice would have made normal acts of editing such as redirecting illegal? - And in the worst of cases, if it really can't be done, the reference can still be reworded to follow similar license templates (e.g. Template:FOLDOC), and placed in such a way as to make clear it's not really a source reference in the sense of "verifiable source" etc. Lukas 09:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Templates

Hi, I responded to your comment on AUM. Can you reply there? — Omegatron 15:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Dechristianization of France

Okay, no big deal; would you like it to not be included in the template, or the template to not be included in the article, or both? Tom Harrison 03:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Æ as an abreviation on tombstones

Thank you for your addition to the article on Æ. In further research I have found many tombstones with the inscription "Ætatis" and I have not found any with the inscription "Ætate" or "Ætate sua". Wouldn't it seem reasonable that the abreviation (which I have also seen as "Æt.") is for Ætatis? I'm afraid my Latin is non-existent. Are these simply different forms of the same word?

Thanks

This user thinks it is ironic that thanks for supporting Cyde's successful RFA came in the form of a userbox.

Here's a userbox for you. --Cyde Weys 04:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

JDoorjam's RfA

Thank you! Pmanderson/Archive 3, thank you for your support in my RfA: it passed with a final tally of 55/1/2. If you want a hand with anything, please gimme a shout. Again, thanks! – JDoorjam Talk 22:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

RfA

If you'd be interested, I'll nominate you. I like your work, especially on Phaistos Disc. Cheers! --Scaife Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 03:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I would be interested in adminship, but I'd rather not be nominated immediately by an ally in an active dispute. Scaife, please ask again in a couple weeks. Septentrionalis 22:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Cheers! --Scaife Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 01:13, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Words of Wisdom

I found this on the WoW page:

When you start accusing everyone of being in on a conspiracy, you shouldn't be surprised if they decide to confirm your paranoia by banding together against you. —khaosworks

Can you think of anyone who needs these words? Robert A.West (Talk) 22:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Re:Robert heinlein and Philosophical novels

(d'oh! posted a reply on something to the wrong user talk page! sigh.) Heh! It was more things like "Stranger in a strange land" I was thinking of, where one of the characters is basically Heinlein ranting ("Time enough for love" is another one that does that :) Grutness...wha? 00:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned cats conundrum

Hi. As a party who contributed to the discussion on the Orphaned China cats recently, I wanted to see if I could get a comment from you at the unresolved discussion. I don't want to see this matter tossed back into the limbo of no consensus, so please vote under Agree with proposal or Disagree with proposal with the numbering and we'll see if this can be resolved. Thanks very much for your continued patience. --Syrthiss 22:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine, Again

I found this article and it sounds like him. Its in English but from a Swede, which is in keeping of my theory about him. Writing sytle is very similar. Let me know what you think? --Scaife Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 18:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Neoliberalism in international relations

I could use some help here. There is a user that is strying to start a revert war over whether or not neoliberalism is a "realist" theory or not. It clearly isn't and I spelled that out. They do share a state-central view of IR, however neoliberalism does not intrinsically state that the system is anarchic, which is the major defining charachteristic of Realism. --Scaife Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 20:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Imbros and Tenedos

I have copyedited Imbros and Tenedos#Greek population. Consistently with my belief that a lot of non-idiomatic english gets mistaken for NPOV violations, I think that the NPOV tag can now be removed. Your advice would be welcome. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Greeks

Please take a look at Talk:Greeks. I'm afraid the essentialist concept of ethnic identity is very stubborn.... Your thoughts and contributions would be welcome. --Macrakis 17:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Foreign impact on the Greeks

Better talk to u here,cause i think that we are getting off the main subject in Talk:Greeks.i do not think that we should mention the obvious:that there is no pure nation in the world!,by listing all the foreign settlements in greece.i also have doubts about the necessity of the mythological references in the beginning of the article.if we just say that numerous invaders passed from greece and that they have generally contributed,would be clear enough.i do not know were u are from,but lets say that u are English...would u think it is necessary to mention who founded the cities and who lived there during a 3000 year history?this should be a subject of the respective city articles,or of the history of the country.by refering to it on the people's article,in the way that was in the Greeks(directly claiming that non-greeks had a huge impact)we deliberately underestimate the continuity of the people.i do not know if i made myself clear enough...:)--Hectorian 19:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There are many differences between the two articles.the one includes genetic studies,the other does not.the one has a section 'contribution to humanity',but the other doesn't (and it would be very interesting to make such a section in the Greeks article...).i am not saying not to mention that the modern greeks have mixed with other people as well,i am saying not to provoke the undisputed continuity.and if someone may think that what i am saying is racist or something,i can be even more "liberal and free-minded" and underline the greek contribution to the whole area from Portugal to India and from Hungary to Sudan...This is not how things happened...Everything has to be placed in its order.--Hectorian 21:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

And if i have not made myself clear again,let me give u an example of what i mean.if i editted in Scottish people something like that: some academians believe that the Scottish people are a celtic nation,but this view excludes the large numbers of Flemish that immigrated in the region,i am provoking the celtic origins of the Scots and i am giving to an ethnic group(the flemish in this case)more impact than they really had(btw,that article is disputed,perhaps for such reasons).this is what i do not wanna see in Greeks...underline the non-greek impact and get the page locked.Regards--Hectorian 21:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Felony Murder

Apparently Guyora Binder is male. Fitting I should user him as a source since he is Class of '77. Robert A.West (Talk) 03:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Cyril Arthur Pearson

Good piece of research. Assuming that you find concurring evidence from AJP Taylor, we'll need to update the referring articles as well, such as Max Aitken, 1st Baron Beaverbrook. --BillC 21:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Greeks (2)

Hi, I think I'm with NikoSilver on this latest bout of reversals over Greeks. Much as I don't want to discourage Byz, I think his version isn't yet mature enough for insertion under the present hot climate. It'll be better to prepare one good version that is so immaculately sourced from the start that nobody can easily attack it. And I mean not just mentioning sources on the talk page, but really littering the text with footnotes... (see what I once had to do to Arvanitic language if you want a really really bad example of how to stop POV warrers ;-) ) Hint: I like the new <ref> functionality for this purpose () -- Thanks for your heroic efforts though! --Lukas 20:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Getting together a group of right-thinking editors to battle a lone crank, possibly with a lukewarm supporter, is a viable strategy. However, I'm afraid that it just leads to endless edit-warring on pages like Greeks. If we can find five editors willing to spend full time reverting, other editors can find five to revert to their favorite version. When I have a little more time, I plan to put together a mini-anthology of comments by scholars of modern Greek national identity (historians, political scientists, anthropologists) which can form part of the collection of diverse points of view making up NPOV. I have already put some of the references in the bibliography. This will clearly be based on modern, scholarly, secondary sources. --Macrakis 23:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

DPT Tags

I say get rid of them, we can work out the details of removing the perponderance of Ray as we move along. Cheers! --Scaife 23:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine Reloaded

It looks as if you have been in confrontations with Ultramarine before yourself. He may very well be the most active and argumentative biased editor of political articles on the wikipedia. Many editors contacted me during my "case against ultramarine" userpage compaign (until i deleted it because of admin pressures). While my political views differ from his, i did take Jimbo Wales advice and remove my political userboxes and I have not been one to go on wild editing rampages to advance my agenda on wikipedia, I spend most my time editing social science, matrix, and videogame articles. But I have quite a few soviet and political related articles on my watchlist specifically for policing ultramarine. I don't have any questions or requests to make of you, I simply wanted to express my appreciation for your honesty and effort to keep the Liberal democracy article clean and as balanced as possible. Viva Misplaced Pages. Solidusspriggan 03:08, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Ptolemy disambiguations

Hi there. I noticed you put a link to Ptolemy back in the disambiguation text at the top of Ptolemy I Soter, and I was wondering if you could point me somewhere where the style of these disambiguation phrases are discussed? My feeling is that if someone types Ptolemy in the search box, they arrive at Ptolemy, and so links to Ptolemy from other articles are not needed. I always like to see the disambiguation phrases kept to a bare minimum, as I feel they can be distracting. The most comprehensive disambiguation text should, IMO, be at Ptolemy.

On a related matter, I spent some time recently tidying up a disambiguation tangle that I discovered. Namely that Ptolemaic was a redirect to Ptolemaic dynasty. After clicking on "What links here" I discovered that several of the 43 links were in fact to do with Ptolemy (mainly needing to be redirected to Ptolemaic system. I gradually worked through the list, redoing the Ptolemaic links to point at either Ptolemaic dynasty, Ptolemaic system or Ptolemy. I then changed the redirect to a disambiguation page. I wanted to get some feedback on whether that page looks OK, and was wondering if you would have time to comment? If not, I'll raise this on the talk pages, but I wanted to get some individual feedback first. Carcharoth 23:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I didn't quite get what you meant by this though: "Somewhere there is a link to Ptolemy which some bot will disambiguate -wrongly- to Ptolemy by this time next month, or next year." Do you have a specific bot in mind, or are you talking generally? Carcharoth 23:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

More Ptolemy stuff

While going through all that Ptolemaic stuff, I had the chance to ponder on the distinction between Ptolemiac dynasty and Ptolemaic period (I suppose technically the period started when the Ptolemy who would later be known as Ptolemy I Soter became ruler of Eygpt in 323 BC, but the dynasty started when he took the title of King in 305 BC). There is also a distinction between the dynasty (the people) and the period (historical era) and the kingdom/empire, though it all these distinctions start to blur at some point. Also, I saw that History of Greek and Roman Egypt is fairly similar to Ptolemaic dynasty, but obviously covers the Roman period as well. I saw that Ptolemaic Empire redirects there. Is there a subtle distinction I am missing here that would explain why Ptolemiac Empire shouldn't redirect to the dynasty page instead? Carcharoth 00:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh dear. I've got a nasty feeling that many of the links pointing at Ptolemaic dynasty, including the several that I recently redirected there myself, should be pointing at a history page like Ptolemaic empire. Before looking through the long list of "What links here" for Ptolemaic dynasty (and similar pages), I want to be clear what people can mean by the phrases they are using. Of course, they might be using the phrases incorrectly, but that is part of the challenge! I did also see several references to Legu-what's-its-name, but obviously don't really understand that... Carcharoth 00:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Found it! There is a Lagids page that redirects to Ptolemaic dynasty. Carcharoth 00:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for your help and advice on the Ptolemy stuff. I'll do a bit more tidying up, and then I think I will take your advice and leave the more subtle stuff for others to clear up - maybe leaving messages on a few talk pages to alert people. My main interest is the science pages concerning Ptolemy, but it has been interesting finding out about all these other Ptolemies! Do you know if Ptolemy was related at all, or was it just a common name? Carcharoth 00:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

One thing I have realised from all this, even though we don't know for sure whether Ptolemy was descended from the Ptolemies, is that, in their own particular areas, Ptolemy and the Ptolemies are the most famous examples of Ptolemies. Historians and philosophers of science instantly think of Ptolemy and the system that held sway for centuries. Classical scholars and historians should think of both, maybe edging more towards the dynastic Ptolemies. Egyptologists would instantly think of the dynastic Ptolemies. And as for the man on the street, I would say that Ptolemy the astronomer is the most famous of the lot. At least that seems to be the verdict handed down by Misplaced Pages when you type in Ptolemy to the search engine! Though I guess lots of people type Ptolomy... (I like the way the "What links here" from spelling redirects like Ptolomy can show you how commonly editors do type Ptolomy) :-) Carcharoth 00:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The source of most POV articles on wikipedia: Asymmetric controversy

I believe I have made an important discovery regarding the reason why some articles are chronically biased. Most of them are articles on what I call asymmetric controversies.

An asymmetric controversy is a controversy between two sides, one of which is particularly interested in the issue and fanatical in defending its POV, while the other doesn't care about the issue a whole lot. Articles on such issues will inevitably be biased in favor of the fanatical side, because they put most effort into writing about it. Examples are numerous. Gun politics is biased in favor of pro-gun views because pro-gun activists care about it a lot more than gun control advocates. Market economy has a heavy libertarian bias. And, of course, democratic peace theory has fanatical supporters but no fanatical opponents. Paradoxically, any idea widely considered too insane to be criticized will have a favorable article written about it, since its advocates are fanatical about the issue while its opponents consider it too crazy to bother with. Keep in mind that what makes these controversies asymmetric is not the number of people on each side, but the intensity with which they defend their POV. This is a systemic problem on wikipedia, and I think it's time the community started doing something about it, like creating a special project to police asymmetric controversies. What do you think? -- Nikodemos 06:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of the dispute resolution process. It has proven chronically unable to deal with problem users efficiently (and I don't mean Ultramarine or other people who are opinionated but reasonable - I mean real problem users, who would be labeled as flame warriors and banned within days on a messageboard, but manage to survive for months here). -- Nikodemos 15:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

What you don't know about that real problem user is that he had been the subject of a RfAr, considered for a one year ban, eventually put on parole with no immediate punishment, and later blocked for a month some 5 weeks after the RfAr - 5 weeks that were completely wasted, because the RfAr had no effect whatsoever on his behavior and he should have been banned as soon as the case was closed. What I am saying, essentially, is that in my experience dispute resolution has been too lax with users who obviously have no intent to reform. But I digress from the original point of this whole conversation. Even if you disagree about our rules being too lax, what would you say about a possible wikiproject to go out there and identify possible asymmetric controversies in order to redress the balance? -- Nikodemos 17:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

An eventualist! Quick! Burn the heretic! Immediately! :) On a serious note, I agree that some form of subject-area WikiProjects are the answer. However, POV-specific WikiProjects must be avoided at all costs (for example, we should have a general "Ideologies WikiProject" rather than, say, a "Libertarianism WikiProject").

A related problem is what I call unbalanced citations - creating a well-sourced article that only cites sources from one side of the controversy, under the excuse that "it's not my responsibility to write for the enemy" (yes, I'm talking about - well, you know who you are). This is technically not against NPOV, though I believe it should be. At the very least, we should have a specific warning tag that should be placed on pages with unbalanced citations as long as the imbalance remains. Something like "This article overwhelmingly presents the views of one side in a controversy. Please be aware that there may be opposing arguments which are currently not covered". The criterion for using the tag should be the ratio between the number of citations for one side and the number of citations for the other. If it's above, say, 3/4, then we use the tag. -- Nikodemos 19:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Unbelievable

Yes — I can't decide whether its more depressing than amusing or vice versa. One of the people involved, User:Kagan the Barbarian, has sailed very close to the wind (to say the least). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The Game

I'm just dedicated to stamp out a stupid game which is completely pointless and wastes peoples' time every time they think of it. :P

The redness of my sig is slightly different shade of red than non-talk page people. Besides, being treated like a newbie gives me the upper hand in debates. ;) -- infinity0 18:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Elis etc.

There are several more "badly" named categories, see Category:Prefectures of Greece. For instance Aitolia-Acarnania (Aetolia-Acarnania), Prefecture of Chalkidiki (Chalcidice), The Cyclades (Cyclades), The Dodecanese (Dodecanese), Phokida (Phocis) and Viotia (Boeotia). Apart from Boeotia, none of the "proper" categories exist. Viotia is empty now. Markussep 19:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll think about it, I'm not very annoyed by those category names anyway. Markussep 20:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I'd wander in and say Hi!

I was AWOL for most of seven months and am just getting back up to WikiSpeed! Just stumbled on your debate to merge metrology and history of measurement (?) last fall. I thought a howdy was in order. Best, FrankB 05:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Removing my comments

Hi you removed my comments on the WP:AN/I board toady (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=45615586), it was an accident I believe but be careful please next time! Mike _{(T C)} 05:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll adopt the term. Look where my contribs have been the last week! :)

Well, I wasn't dodging Wiki, as much as helping clean up after Katrina. I didn't have to stay, or go, but it seemed right to me. What's a few months in a tent compared to having your whole life torn away?

But it's nice to be back. Time for bed! G'night! FrankB 05:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Navarino

I'm not sure that I understand your question. The Serbian uprising was not pre-organised, it took advantage of the opportunity that the Russo-Turkish conflict presented. The battle of Navarino occurred after the Greeks had already revolted, won the war, and established an independent state. Miskin 13:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Merging

{{sofixit}}. I prefer to merge before I redirect, but that's just me, maybe. Johnleemk | Talk 16:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for experimenting with Misplaced Pages. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed by an automated bot. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please contact the bot owner // Tawkerbot2 17:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Comments

Hey, we'd appreciate further comments about User:Nikodemos/Asymmetric controversy. Thanks :) -- infinity0 20:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Sigh... we both have the same problem, then. If we developed the Asymmetric controversy article further, we may be able to bring it to attention and do something about it, saving future editors a lot of trouble. -- infinity0 21:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Perfect number

In this case Warel is actually correct, any odd harmonic number would be an Ore perfect number as well. This follows from Euler's result on the form that an odd perfect number must have. JoshuaZ 21:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've rephrased it in a way that should make it clear what is going on. Please take a look. JoshuaZ 21:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Greeks

U avoided to make a comment when i talked about Anna Russell, but i also know that u are totally aware of what i am talking about.do u think that u can be considered neutral and unbiased considering the greek-related articles, when u repetendly have invited other users to come and laugh with what the greeks edit?it's just a question...--Hectorian 23:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll bother u with a last comment(so as not to say that i am stalking u anymore).(btw,i hate mathematics!).the question was not if i am 'laughable',but if u can be considered neutral.and for the record: if i seem nationalistic, maybe it's because u are pushing your POV.Regards --Hectorian 23:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I thought that u meant stalking u when i sent u a msg here.so,no,honestly,i am not watching your page nor i am checking your contributions to see what u are doing.i did it once,however,after an edit of yours in talk:greeks,cause i wanted to see if u have opened such a discussion somewhere else and i did not notice.u may be a philhellene,since u are so fond in maths,but apparently u cannot understand the continuity of the greeks.that's our 'dispute'.i hope that we will reach a NPOV level in Greeks.all we have to do is to trust history. --Hectorian 00:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I remember to have seen that edit when it was made by u.but the problem is that the continuity is not only cultural.it is cultural,linguistic,genetic,religious(concerning the Byzantine Empire),etc.all these in various degrees and with mixes,but predominantly(correct usage of the word:p) the modern greeks are the descendants and inheritors of the ancient and the medieval.that's what i mean.i guess u have understood my POV quite well so far.and it is neither unsourced nor i represent the minority.--Hectorian 00:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

No worries

Don't worry about replacing the comment, it was an honest mistake that we have all made, i just wanted to point it out to you, not be a dick. Sorry if i came across as one. Take care and if you need any help with anyhting let me know eh? Mike _{(T C)} 06:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Attorney?

As an English barrister I find it impossible to believe that you are a lawyer, given the grossly defamatory and entirely POV post you made on Lord Nicholas Hervey's page. Sussexman 07:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello from Greece

I disagree with the ongoing reverts or edits you are doing at Greeks. Historians like Runciman, Hammond etc could be cited on many of the tags you added, but I fail to see the point. I was thinking of reverting you, and I might do so in the future, but it'll be boring and unproductive, so I thought I should say "Hello!" here :) talk to +MATIA 08:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Arbcom violation

Blocked for breaching arbcom ruling The Arbitration Committee imposed restrictions on your ability to edit Misplaced Pages due to past behaviour on your part. Not withstanding that you have continued to engage in prohibited editing. As a result you have been blocked from editing Misplaced Pages for 90 minutes. Those restrictions placed on you by the Arbitration Committee were not to engage in sterile revert warring on the page. If you continue to breach this arbcom ruling you will be subject to a longer block. Please do not erase warnings on this page. Stifle 13:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)