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Dalai lama ding dong

Jaakobou

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jaakobou

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Gatoclass (talk) 12:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 08:41, 7 February 2012 Gross misrepresentation of sources; use of substandard sources; WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour; see additional comments section below for explanation
2. 08:57, 7 February 2012 As for first diff above

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Jaakobou clearly knows about ARBPIA as he was a party to the original case and has since been sanctioned under ARBPIA several times:

1. 14:17, 18 March 2008‎ - one week ban imposed by PhilKnight (talk · contribs)
2. 14:28, 1 May 2008 blocked one week by FayssalF (talk · contribs)
3. 21:58, 29 November 2010 - interaction ban imposed by Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs)
4. 06:09, 20 April 2011 - "warned not to make clearly meritless requests for enforcement, especially requests that make obvious misrepresentations of fact" by Sandstein (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In the first diff provided in the evidence above, Jaakobou states that two Palestinian newspapers including official news wire Wafa ... described "supernatural rats", twice as big as normal rats and breeding breed four times faster. He supplies three sources for the paragraph. Only one is a news article; it makes no mention of "supernatural rats", twice as big as normal rats and breeding four times faster. The other two sources are (sarcastic) opinion pieces, which as Jaakobou must surely be aware by now, cannot be considered reliable as sources for facts per WP:RSOPINION. Even so, neither of these refer to supernatural rats ... twice as big as normal rats and breeding four times faster. One does make mention of "giant rats" and includes an unattributed quote "large as dogs" - which, assuming it is accurate, may be a direct quote from the Palestinian news wire itself, or just a colloquial expression quoted from someone interviewed for the story. Regardless, these sources are not remotely sufficient to justify the inclusion of a truly exceptional claim such as that an "official news wire" of the Palestinian Authority accused Israel of releasing "supernatural rats".

Had Jaakobou not been so eager to restore his defamatory paragraph, he might have noticed that a fourth source, which actually contained the extraordinary claims he is so keen to include, was previously removed from the article - but this source too was only an op-ed, and a heavily sarcastic one at that - although Jaakobou thinks not, as he affirmed in the edit summary of a previous revert.

Jaakobou is well aware of the objections to the misuse of heavily sarcastic jibes sourced from op-eds and presented as straight fact. We know this because he has been reminded of it in edit summaries by the people he has been edit warring with over this content, and because it was explained to him long ago on the article talk page. He simply doesn't care.

A couple of further comments. Jaakobou is an editor with a long history of misconduct in the topic area (see the comments about him from other users in the original WP:ARBPIA case, for example). As I recall, he narrowly avoided a siteban some time ago over this. When he was more active on the project, he acquired a reputation for filing meritless requests for action at both AE and AN/I. In my experience, he also happens to be one of the more unpleasant characters to deal with here; rather than discuss content, his communications on talk pages are leavened with vague insinuations of impropriety on the part of his respondents; an example being my last contact with him, last year, in this discussion, where he finds fault with almost everyone while managing to avoid practically any concrete discussion of content. IMO he has avoided a topic ban this long only because of his lack of recent activity, but he has had years to reform and as his latest edits demonstrate, has apparently learned nothing in all that time. Gatoclass (talk) 15:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to HJ and Blade

@HJ and Blade: My apologies for apparently failing to explain the issues clearly enough. With regard to the charge of "gross misrepresentation of sources", allow me to present the two edits in question again.

• In the first diff, Jaakobou added the statement that In 2008, two Palestinian newspapers including official news wire Wafa described "supernatural rats", twice as big as normal rats and breeding breed four times faster.
• In the second diff, Jaakobou added the statement that Palestinian newspapers reported that settlers had flooded the Old City of Jerusalem with "supernatural rats", twice as big as normal rats and breeding four times faster.

In both cases, Jaakobou attributes the quote "supernatural rats" to Palestinian newspapers (one of which is apparently an official news wire of the PA). But this quote does not come from "Palestinian newspapers" - it comes from a heavily sarcastic op ed parodying the reports in those newspapers. The effect is to hold up "Palestinian newspapers" - and by extension, Palestinians - to ridicule. I want to emphasize the seriousness of this misrepresentation: Jaakobou is charging that an "official news wire" of the PA credited the Israelis with having and employing supernatural means in their struggle with Palestinians.

That is not merely an exceptional claim - it's an outrageous one. Such a claim would clearly require exceptional sourcing, but Jaakobou's source for this tosh is a heavily sarcastic op ed which is obvously employing exaggeration for effect - exaggerations that Jaakobou has presented in the article as factual statements. So apart from misrepresenting the sources, Jaakobou has also grossly breached the requirements of WP:V.

There is plenty more I could add, but in the interests of brevity, I will conclude simply by noting that these gross breaches of policy are not the result of mere rashness or carelessness on J.'s part - he has restored this trash no fewer than six times over the course of many months. He has also pointedly ignored the objections raised to this content. So these are not only gross breaches of policy on J.'s part, they are also deliberate and calculated breaches, carried out over an extended period. Gatoclass (talk) 06:27, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to HJMitchell

Having already clarified my evidence, I am surprised to find that you still apparently see nothing "tendentious" about Jaakobou's edits. To recapitulate: he cherry picked the most prejudicial phrase available - supernatural rats - from a collection of sarcastic opinion pieces of highly dubious value as reliable sources. He then totally misrepresented the phrase by attributing it to a news story in "Palestinian newspapers", in such a way as to make it appear these newspapers, including one associated with the Palestinian Authority, were making the ridiculous accusation that Israel had released "supernatural rats" - thus inviting contempt for the associated Palestinian organizations. He did this a total of five times over the course of many months. His last restoration was so careless he neglected to include the very source from which his cherry picked phrase originated - this in spite of the fact that he knew the phrase had been challenged by at least two other users. At the same time, he doubled down on the offence by including an image of a rat with a caption even more misleading than the phraseology in the original misrepresentation.

With regard to your comment that the edit Jaakobou reverted was itself tendentious - presumably on the grounds that you think a section on the rat story was justified - you are entitled to that view. But I am obliged to point out that Jaakobou did not have consensus for his restoration of that section on the talk page, as at least two editors - myself and Poyani - had objected to its inclusion, while two others - Roscelese and Marokwitz - had expressed objections to the sourcing. My own objection to the inclusion of the section in question can be read here, and I must reject any suggestion that the argument presented there is "tendentious". Gatoclass (talk) 03:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I should also point out that the "supernatural rats" claim is only the most egregious of J.'s misrepresentations. He has in fact misattributed a slew of statements to "Palestinian newspapers" that in fact were made in op eds. These include statements that the rats were "twice as big as normal rats" and that they "breed four times as fast", as well as earlier misattributions that the rats were dog sized, "liked to attack Palestinian children" and so on. The point is that in articles which are clearly employing sarcasm as a mode of expression, one cannot possibly know whether these statements were meant to be taken literally or if they are just examples of the writers' attempts at sarcasm. Jaakobou however, approaches these statements from the assumption that they must all be literally true, because it suits his POV to do so. Consequently, he sees no problem with misattributing these statements to "Palestinian newspapers". The problem with such an approach ought, I think, to be self evident. Gatoclass (talk) 13:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Update to evidence

Jaakobou's latest edit demonstrates that he simply doesn't get it. He thinks that by removing the quotes from "supernatural rats" he is somehow solving the problem, but his new edit if anything makes the passage worse. The problem is not that there are quote marks around the term "supernatural rats", the problem is that he is attributing the term to Palestinian newspapers, when the term originates from an obviously sarcastic statement in an op ed which almost certainly was never intended to be taken literally. There is no evidence whatever that Palestinian newspapers ever asserted that Israelis were releasing "supernatural rats" - if they had made such a ludicrous claim it would surely have been reported in more than one place. Jaakobou's new "solution" indicates that this is at least as much an issue of competence as it is of battleground mentality. I think at this point he's had more than enough chances to get it right. Gatoclass (talk) 12:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Some further clarification, in response to Jaakobou's latest comments.

Jaakobou asserts that his latest edit, which substituted the term "rats with supernatural qualities" for his original "supernatural rats", has resolved the problem, but it hasn't even begun to address it. His edit still egregiously misrepresents the Palestinian newspapers in question because it attributes to them an (exceptional) claim we have no evidence they made, ie that supernatural rats, or rats with supernatural qualities, were being released by Israel. The characterization of these rats' qualities as "supernatural" comes not from these Palestinian newspapers, but from an opinion piece satirizing their story. Jaakobou's edit, in other words, misattributes an opinion expressed by a newspaper columnist to the original news report published by Palestinian newspapers. This doesn't just misrepresent the newspapers (and the sources) in question, it also clearly breaches at least three elements of core policy, WP:Attribution, WP:REDFLAG and WP:RSOPINION. And it does so in such a way as to defame the Palestinian organizations in question, which is classic WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct.

RSOPINION states that Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is Op-ed columns in mainstream newspapers. Why is this policy necessary? Because of the recognition that many opinion editors routinely distort the facts in order, for example, to make a point, pillory their political adversaries, appeal to the prejudices of their readers, or just write in an entertaining way. It should I think be obvious that the hazards of relying on satirical opinion pieces for statements of fact are much greater still, because in such articles the facts are typically distorted to the point of absurdity to achieve the desired satirical effect.

Again, it isn't just one such factoid lifted from a satirical op-ed by Jaakobou and misattributed to Palestinian newspapers, but a whole series of them. The assertions that Palestinian newspapers described the rats as "dog size" or "twice as big as normal rats" (take your pick), that they were "breeding four times faster", "like to attack Palestinian children" and so on, were all sourced to various satirical op eds - most of them to just one - and misattributed by Jaakobou to the papers themselves. Any of these statements could be, and likely is, an exaggeration made for the sake of parody. An experienced editor should surely understand this without needing to have it explained, but in Jaakobou's case he went on - and still goes on - adding these claims in contravention of multiple core policies even after being reminded of those policies. Gatoclass (talk) 16:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Jaakobou is now trying to justify his misattributions by (retrospective) reference to an alleged quote from the original Palestinian report that appears on the Palestinian Media Watch website, an Israeli advocacy site. Even working on the assumption that the quote accurately reflects the views expressed in the original Palestinian report, the quote does not include statements that the rats are "supernatural", that they are "twice as big as normal rats" or that they "breed four times faster" than a normal rat. These are all statements taken not from the original report, but from an opinion piece satirizing that report. By misattributing these statements to the original Palestinian report, Jaakobou has perpetrated a falsehood which has had the effect of portraying "Palestinian newspapers" in the worst possible light. Gatoclass (talk) 04:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to Ynhockey

Truly extraordinary that an admin whose own user page states that "nearly every significant edit I've made to an Arab–Israeli conflict-related article so far has been dubbed, directly or indirectly, a POV push" would attempt to pass himself off as an uninvolved admin in the I-P topic area. That aside, your claim that misrepresentation of sources is a "content dispute" not actionable at AE is patently wrong, as shown by this thread. Gatoclass (talk) 05:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to JH Mitchell and T. Canens

With regard to the question as to whether J.'s conduct is "serious" enough to warrant sanction - I obviously believe it is or I would not have brought this case. My concern is not simply that Jaakobou repeatedly misattributed statements, it's that the effect of those misattributions was to invite scorn for Palestinians. In my view, any content that tends to promote ethnic or cultural stereotypes should be subject to the utmost rigour and only included if that information is unambiguously relevant, notable and impeccably sourced. Hopefully then, it will be clear why I think that misattributing hyperbolic statements to make it appear that Palestinians claimed they were being tormented by "supernatural rats" is an offence occasioning some sort of sanction. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 07:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I should also point out that in spite of all that's been said in this case, Jaakobou has still failed to correct his misattributions, and indeed is attempting to defend them. What reason is there, then, to suppose he will stop attempting to edit war this misinformation into the article at the close of this case? Given his intransigence on the issue, I see no alternative but to request some sort of sanction. Gatoclass (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to Billinghurst

I don't have time to respond in detail to Billinghurst's comment, so I will just note firstly that Billinghurst has made exactly one edit to WP:AE and can hardly be described as familiar with this process or the problems which beset the given topic area, and secondly, that I think it inappropriate for Jaakobou to be canvassing for commentary on this case at IRC where the discussion cannot be reviewed. Gatoclass (talk) 15:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Jaakobou

Statement by Jaakobou

To be honest, I'm having difficulty following the complaint and it seems to underline the severe battleground behavior which I've long put behind me (since 2008). Gatoclass, however, has never really been an honest participant in discussions relating the Arab-Israeli dispute whether it was content related or user behavior related. A review of his participation will quickly show a clear pattern of personal preference to a certain type of user -- and I'm not talking about good contributors.

On point, Gatoclass has not approached me with his concerns and, certainly, his view was more than challenged on the talkpage and on article space -- by an admin no less.

His explained reasoning to remove said paragraph (which is about a ridiculous conspiracy theory) was "None of the sources refer to this specifically as a conspiracy theory." .. "Neither would it be unreasonable for Palestinians to conclude that the rats were being released in a malicious attempt to affect their quality of life. For something to be a conspiracy theory, it has to include a major element of irrationality."

How about the fact that Jews live in that neighborhood also? Where's the rationale behind racist rats?

The report said that "Rats have become an Israeli weapon to displace and expel Arab residents of the occupied Old City of Jerusalem. Settlers flood the Old City of Jerusalem with rats." It is not clear how these rats were taught to stay away from Jews, who also happen to live in the Old City.

I've noted this to Gatoclass on the talk: The mere suggestion that Jews bring in rats with a goal to kick out Arabs and replace them with Jews falls under "conspiracy theory" whether it is correct or isn't correct. "Such allegations reflect a sick mindset and are part of a long-standing tradition of blaming Israel and Jews for almost everything that goes wrong in Arab countries and the rest of the world." In this event, the only reason that there are regular rats -- not the cat chasing ones that can distinguish Arab from Jew -- is low sanitary conditions in the Old City and not an evil Jewish plot. Regardless, it is not up to you or me to judge the rationality of these conspiratory allegations. We're here to convey what has been published by reliable sources.

To be honest, if this is just about the phrasing used, then it doesn't belong here -- and, certainly, I did not invent any of the terms used myself but used the terminology of sources. If the phrasing has not been best, Gatoclass can certainly refine it. However, Gatoclass first choice of complete deletion and claims that this is not a conspiracy theory unless that term is specifically expressed, followed by this rushed non-collaborative attempt of complaint -- present my case for the underlying problem in Gatoclass's behavior.

Direct quotes of the original Palestinian allegation include: "cats run away from these rats because of their size and ferocity.", "they seem to be immune to poison", "this female rat gives birth seven times a year, each time giving birth to 20 babies"

In this context -- this complaint as though my behavior of returning the paragraph (after it was deleted a few months ago, when editors stopped paying attention) seems wholly unproductive and personal.

I have no problem with the idea that the paragraph could be fixed a bit but this complaint has little to no merit and, if anything, I believe Gatoclass should be reprimanded for wasting everyone's time like this.

p.s. I've managed to work relatively well with editors who are not interested just in drama (Quasi-Barnstar Memorabilia - click links) -- including on the conspiracy article. Sample: Gatoclass, for his own participation, has been blocked a year ago when edit warring with a third editor on the very article in question on this complaint. I incidentally changed his edit after he violated WP:ARBPIA which could be an added incentive for his non-collaborative approach. However, he still seems interested in removing anyone working on the page and deleting the paragraph rather than in correcting the phrasing to his liking. Maybe this is not the case but just my perception due to this rushed complaint. If he states to the contrary, I will certainly take their word for it.

@Admins:

Gatoclass has been blocked a year ago fighting a 3rd editor on the conspiracy article and managed to sustain the same spirit as before. I would like to promote that he (a) be reprimanded for this complaint, and (b) (optional) article banned for a short period (24hrs?) for maintaining a politically motivated, non-collaborative, battleground promoting behavior that is detrimental to the spirit and purpose of the project -- I think it is a bad idea to let people maintain such spirit over more than a year without a wake-me-up. Jaakobou 20:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

@T. Canens:

The rat conspiracy paragraph was blanketed out and I reverted after a few months of not noticing the edit. I also added a picture with a bit of existing text (presented here as 2 diffs despite being done in one editing go). The term "supernatural" is not important and I am not attached to it. Gatoclass has not bothered to approach my edit on the talkpage and explains here that he (a) assumes bad faith, and that (b) his participation is politically motivated -- this explains why he's trying to game the system rather than build consensus. His activity here, specifically the usage of diffs, is to a fault on a number of levels as well. At least a few his new "clarifying" diffs come from time periods where I was completely oblivious to the article. His "clarification" is not a fair representative of his activity, which got him blocked, or my activity.

The term "supernatural", btw, is not far off from the direct quote and explains it with clarity. Rats in Jerusalem do NOT chase away cats, are NOT immune to poison, and the females do NOT give birth SEVEN TIMES a year to 20 babies. Regardless if the term "supernatural" is used in sources or not (and it is used, e.g., in the last ref's title), I am not attached to it and have no issues with rephrasing it. It is mere semantics as long as the paragraph about the rat conspiracy is in the article and presents the conspiracy theory about ... above average(?) rats.

p.s. English is not my mother tongue and I am more than open to discussion and suggestions. You'll excuse me if I'm not as open to blanket deletions and/or politically motivated bad faith accusations.

@HJ Mitchell:

As far as I can tell. The word "supernatural" was used by Palestinian Media Watch -- a reliable source for translation and news about Palestinian media -- and not by the Palestinian newspaper. However, the exact translation describes rats which are certainly beyond the normal. The whole problem, IMHO, stems from Gatoclass' idea that the story is somehow legitimate (per: "Neither would it be unreasonable for Palestinians to conclude...") and not a concocted conspiracy (per: "not a conspiracy theory"). Had he approached the text with collaborative suggestions rather than a battleground mentality, I believe he would not have been blocked and would not have filed this time-wasting report.

@Admins:

1. I hope you will address this problem, where an editor is pushing a clearly politically motivated deletion effort while using this forum to badger a fellow editor. No one is perfect, but the spirit of the wiki project is collaboration, not arm wrestling.
2. To ratify my earlier comment -- that I am not overly attached to the semantics used in the article and that my main concern was battleground mentality regarding the existence of the "not a conspiracy theory" paragraph -- I've gone ahead and fixed the 'supernatural' issue based on the best source material available. I would have fixed this issue had Gatoclass approached my renewal of the paragraph's existence using the talkpage but it seems he's still under the intent of having the entire text completely removed.

With respect.

@Response to Gatoclass' -- 12:56, 15 February 2012 -- update:

The Palestinian fable about rats capable of chasing away cats and of being immune to poison (source, pg. 10) can be summarized with the term "supernatural qualities" ("supernatural rats" is gone) without anyone throwing a fit over it. I can't explain why the "update" ignores the changes and attacks the already removed text. Maybe Gatoclass is more competent than I and is capable of explaining this discrepancy. Regardless, it is frivolous behavior and a waste on everyone's time. I could have, for example, continued helping the concerns raised regarding 'Israel-Palestinian conflict' instead of responding to this politically motivated harassment.

To make things easier on reviewing admins:

"cats run away from these rats because of their size and ferocity... All of the conventional efforts to kill them have not succeeded, because they seem to be immune to poison" - Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (Fatah), controlled by the office of Mahmoud Abbas, July 18, 2008 (source, pg. 10)

I can't explain why Gatoclass insists this does not qualify as a conspiracy theory when there's enough sources (PMW analysis report and op-eds) that treat it as such and no sources that say the opposite. As long as he tries to throw weight around in order to impose this politically motivated belief into wikipedia article space, it might be a good practice to ban him from WP:ARBPIA topic area.

Summary on Gatoclass storytelling (aka From when are the diffs?)

Apologies for not coming with this information earlier -- I considered this complaint pure harassment and did not want to waste time by looking at things which occurred in 2011.

Here goes...

My latest diff not from this month's undo operation has occurred on May 2011:

"Not yet finished, but this deals with most issues content-wise. Still haven't dealt with "supernatural" issue which I've opened for discussion" -- Jaakobou, 20 May 2011

Gatoclass deleted the paragraph with his novelty personal belief (i.e. not supported by any sources) that it was "not a conspiracy theory", and was reverted by an admin who asked for an explanation. In June 2011, a while after discussions died down, Poyani removed the paragraph (without an edit summary). I noticed the rats section has been removed months later, and I undid his action and asked him to not take advantage of the fact that editors stopped paying attention to the page.

Reviewing my last contribution in May 2011, I was accepting the complaint against "supernatural" and did not reinsert it. The only inaccuracy of the time appears to have been my using of the term "dog sized" when the exact translation on al-Hayat al-Jadida was "cats run away from these rats because of their size and ferocity". I forgot about this argument by February 2012, when I reverted Poyani and it appears that contentious language was reinserted by Gilabanrd on October 2011 prior to being removed again by Poyani on November 2011.

Was I the one ignoring input and pushing the article towards the realm of extraordinary claims or was Poyani engaged in slow edit-warring, which caused me to reinsert a version I fixed in May 2011? Regardless, Gatoclass was and still is using hyperbole, not existing in the article, to promote his unsupported personal belief that it is not enough of a conspiracy theory to merit mere inclusion (per: "My own objection to the inclusion of the section in question can be read here" -- Gatoclass, February 2012)

Gatoclass could have just nudged me to get me to fix the article again (as I did in May 2011) -- but that does not appear to be his purpose.

Gatoclass disagrees with how I fixed the text about the Palestinian story of poison-immune rats that target Arabs (unnatural qualities). That's fine and I plan to remain open to resolving concerns when they are raised. Regardless, he has misrepresented the history (I was working towards a solution in May 2011), and attempted using AE as a weapon in a content dispute. To top it off, he now suggests he plans on creating an edit war to impose his view (per: "What reason is there, then, to suppose he will stop attempting to edit war"). I'd hope, instead, that he would rather work with the community to build a consensus -- but he already stated his goal was deleting the entire story. I assure that I have no intention on edit-warring on the semantics (or anything else, for that matter), and I feel like I'm repeating myself when I keep noting that Gatoclass appears to still be in the same mind-frame that got him blocked for edit-warring a year ago.

Comments by others about the request concerning Jaakobou

So, after an uninvolved administrator told Gatoclass that it is misleading to list these two diff separately , as they were made 16 minutes apart with no intervening edit, he goes and repeats his charge, treating each one as a separate incident.

@T.Canens: On your user page, you have a sub page, "AE" , containing instructions for filers. One of these instructions is "There must be at least one recent edit that is alleged to violate the remedy. If all the edits cited are old, the case will likely be closed as stale without action, and the filer may face sanctions for filing a meritless request. As a rule of thumb, edits are not recent if they are more than a few days old.". When filed, both diffs used here were more than 6 days old, and they are now a week old. Can you explain why the filer shouldn't face sanctions for filing a meritless request?

You further state " Attempting to mislead or deceive is a very bad idea and may result in sanctions." One of the admins here has commented that 'The edits were made sixteen minutes apart with no intervening edits, so it seems a little misleading to list them separately". Does that admin have it wrong, or is there some extenuating circumstances here, beyond the fact that the filer is himself an admin, that would prevent sanctions from being applied to this frivolous and misleading report? 71.204.165.25 (talk) 03:36, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Jaakobou has repeatedly argued that these edits are acceptable, because they are sourced to Palestinian news reports. However, his source is not the alleged original reports themselves, but hostile citations in Palestinian Media Watch. This site has been discussed several times at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and the consensus is that it cannot be considered a reliable source except for its own views. It should not be accepted as a reliable source for the views of third parties. Jaakobou is aware of this, since he has himself taken part in these discussions. Given this, he should not be attempting to use PMW as a source for such contentious claims; such claims should be cited directly from the original, if it can be located. If it cannot, the most that can be said is that PMW alleges that such statements were made. RolandR (talk) 19:05, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus by univolved editors--Shrike (talk) 19:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Nowhere is there a consensus to what RolandR is claiming. There is a general agreement that (a) their translations are reliable, (b) their analysis is not entirely impartial, (c) it is preferred to use more mainstream and/or original sources where available. I haven't seen anyone successfully claim PMW's "hostile" translations are not a reliable source. CNN and other major sources, believe they are reliable and use their translations for reports. They were even joined by Senator Hillary Clinton in a joint press conference introducing a report on Palestinian schoolbooks.

Further samples: The Washington Times, Washington Post, BBC, Jerusalem Post, CBS News, CNSNews.com, Haaretz, The Ottawa Citizen, United Press International.

Regardless of RolandR's (false) claims of widespread rejection, it is clear PMW were not widely rejected as well as that they are most definitely a reliable source.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 21:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment—it seems that Gatoclass is taking a content dispute in which he is involved to WP:AE in hopes of getting the opposing editor sanctioned. Even in the admin section (where I might've placed this comment, but I have had too many interactions with both Gatoclass and Jaakobou for that), the discussion is whether Jaakobou's edits violated content policies, which is not an argument for WP:AE. If Gatoclass has a problem with the content Jaakobou is inserting and believes that there's a problem with the sources or WP:SYNTH or whatever, he should seek consensus on the talk page, and failing that, open a content RfC. If anything, misrepresenting content disputes as behavioral issues in order to remove any opposition is an act of gaming the system and should be summarily dismissed by the administrators at WP:AE. —Ynhockey 15:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Jaakobou

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• The edits were made sixteen minutes apart with no intervening edits, so it seems a little misleading to list them separately. To the edits themselves, I do not see anything remotely resembling "gross misrepresentation of sources"—Jaakobou's edit seems like a reasonable summary of the Jerusalem Post article to me. I note also that Jaakobou was actually reverting an edit from November 2011. The lack of edit summary for what was clearly a contentious edit look plainly tendentious to me, and I can understand why Jaakobou might feel aggrieved by that edit. I don't see anything actionable here, and indeed I'm tempted to say the request is completely frivolous unless I've overlooked something. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:44, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• I'm not really seeing anything either; what I was just going to write is essentially what HJ Mitchell wrote above, so I won't repeat it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• Are we looking at the same article? As far as I can see nowhere in the Jerusalem Post article did the author mention supernatural or otherwise gave any indication as to the rats' (supposed) size or breeding rate. T. Canens (talk) 00:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Those seem to come from one of the other refs Jaakobou provided. The sourcing for those claims seems very poor, and one could make an argument that it's novel synthesis, but I don't follow Gatoclass's leap to the conclusion that this is tendentious, and the edit he was revering certainly appears tendentious (albeit long stale) to me. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:49, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

OK:

• Jaakobou re-ignited a content dispute by reverting an arguably tendentious edit
• Jaakobou (re-)added material which was not fully supported by the sources cited, arguably misrepresenting them
• Jaakobou sourced at least part of this material to a source whose reliability he knows has been questioned on several occasions (NB, determining the reliability of sources is outside the remit of AE)

The question is: does this rise to a level where a sanction ought to be considered? Input is requested from other uninvolved admins. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• First, whether or not we end up imposing a sanction, this request isn't frivolous. To be frivolous, a request must not have even arguable merit. The fact that we have to discuss the proper resolution at length is strong evidence that it at least makes a colorable claim of sanctionable conduct. Nor, as far as I am aware, does Gatoclass have a history of filing largely inactionable requests, so sanctions are unwarranted on that front as well.
• Second, misrepresentation of sources is a conduct issue that is within AE's jurisdiction. Even if a source is accurately represented, I am of the view that knowingly and intentionally using sources that is plainly of low quality in an effort to push a particular PoV is also sanctionable misconduct, as such behavior is plainly inconsistent with the purpose of Misplaced Pages. While we do not generally interfere with good faith disagreements over sources, when no reasonable editor, well versed in our policies and practices, would have used a particular source, we can and should intervene.
• As to whether sanctions are warranted in this particular case, I'm a bit torn and very tired right now. I'll hopefully make up my mind tomorrow. T. Canens (talk) 06:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• After looking it over again, I'm not really sure what to do either. Part of me would be willing to let this go with a very strong warning not to do it again, another is looking for a topic ban of some sort (most likely from the article in question). I'll think on it for a while. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved admin's view.
I have read through the exchanges on the administrator's talk page, here and the components on the page being edited. Following that I have asked a few targeted questions and received brief answers specifically focused on the article.

The revert in question on the article page in response to the removal of the section seems reasonable in the context of no edit summary, and not having specifically edited the article in six months; and looking at the text on the talk page. Though I would have liked to see the fact of the revert raised on the talk page.

• I cannot agree with the allegation from the complainant from what I see of the two diffs, nor looking at the history of the article
• I do see some superlatives used that are not accurately matching the references and probably should be replaced more replaced with text something like "rats there were described of an abnormally large size". I would suggest that there be a concentration on utilising the words from articles, and possibly less use of a thesaurus. If in doubt, underplay the text.
• I do feel that an edit summary should say what the editor did, not focusing on what the previous editor did
• I would like all people to focus less on the commentary within the article, and more on trying to produce an encyclopaedic article. The referred work seems more to be a piece of investigative journalism to produce a summary of findings, and such more like original research rather than a reflective encyclopaedic article.

It would be good to see both parties try to understate rather than overstate encyclopaedic articles, especially as to me the articles has many elements of construction by people where English is not their primary language and some of the wrong connotation comes through in the use of words. Within that context, it would seem inappropriate to sanction anybody, and to get people to inquire politely about the appropriate or relevance of word used, rather than to accuse of disruption. (Truth be known I probably see more superlatives used in the description of the case, than attributed in the article.)

In conclusion, no rebuke or sanction as it looks to me to be a good faith revision. Review the article in a holistic sense as it pulls together circumstances to provide a points of view and is presented as an investigative article, rather than an article in an encyclopaedia, definitely look to review the use of certain words. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Motion to close

• This has gone on long enough. I don't think we're going to get a consensus among uninvolved admins for a sanction of any sort, so unless any uninvolved admin vehemently objects, I propose to close this within the next 24 hours without action, but with a caution to Jaakobou that sanctions will be forthcoming if a pattern of questionable edits emerges in the future. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

POVbrigand

Anonimu

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Anonimu

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Codrin.B (talk) 02:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Anonimu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Anonimu, Conditions to provisionally suspend Anonimu's ban, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive86#Anonimu

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 05:24, 11 February 2012, 20:45, 11 February 2012, - 1RR, incivility violations at Moldova
2. 12:44, 20 January 2012, 16:38, 20 January 2012, 16:54, 20 January 2012, 14:04, 25 January 2012 - 1RR, incivility violations at {{History of Romania}}
3. , , , , - edit warning, article locked for edit warring, 1RR violation at Communist Romania
4. , , - 1RR Violation at Victor Ponta
5. , - 1RR violation at Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina
6. , , - Edit warring, near 1RR violation at Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism
7. 13:46, 14 February 2012 15:28, 15 February 2012 - Edit warring, cleverly dodged 1RR violation (timed it to be 24h + 1h42min later) at Moldovans
8. , , - attack on WP:ROMANIA main project page, edit war, cleverly dodged 1RR violation, vandalism, WP:STALK

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 3 October 2011‎ by The Last Angry Man (talk · contribs) (his response was to remove and ignore the warning)
2. Warned on 14 January 2012 by Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) (his response was to remove and ignore the warning)
3. Warned on 20 January 2012 by Codrinb (talk · contribs) (his response was to remove and ignore the warning)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Besides the "technical" violations described above, which only happened in a short time since the last arbitration enforcement request in April 2011, Anonimu has been engaged in a rampage of WP policy violations and very suspicious activities, as follows:

• Obsessive WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH of a Communism and Soviet-related agenda and actively minimizing the impact Communism and the Soviet Union had (and still has) in Romania and Moldova

1. From the only 16 articles he created since 2005, the majority are about Russian-born "Romanian" communists like Pavel Tcacenco, Haia Lifşiţ, Leon Lichtblau - people celebrated by Soviet regimes installed in Romania and Moldova after World War II and directly responsible for over 50 years of suffering in both Romania and Moldova.
2. , , , - WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at Communist Romania
3. , , , , , , - Minimizing/In defense of Communism impact
4. , , , , , - Minimizing/In defense of Soviet Union crimes
5. , , , - Edit warring, WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing at Fântâna Albă massacre, removal of valid templates like Template:Anti-communism in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, shocking "dialogs" on the Talk:Fântâna Albă massacre, considering this is an article about a massacre
6. , , , - Attack on, later removal/redirect of article, on Valeriu Boboc, a recent victim killed by the Pro-Russian Communist regime in Moldova during 2009 riots; also trying to downplay the involvement of the government in the victims death

While it is ok to write an academic article about Stalin or Hitler, if this is all you do, and the rest is disruptions and WP:POV pushing, WP:PUSH related to extremist views, this is a huge problem.

• Obsessive WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH of WP:FRINGE/purely political Soviet/communist theories that Moldovans are not Romanians

1. , , - WP:STALK, edit warring on the WP:ROMANIA project page (!) to force the project to be limited to the geography of Romania in scope without being a member, attempting any civil dialog or suggestion (especially to keep it out of Moldovan-related pages, i.e. read Soviet/Russian sphere of influence on Misplaced Pages?!)
2. , , , - Edit warring on the {{History of Romania}} template, to exclude Bessarabia (Moldova), even though is an integral part of Romanian history)
3. - 1RR Violation, Edit warring, WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing at Moldovans
4. , , , , , - WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at History of Moldova
5. - Removal of {{WikiProject Romania}} tag from the talk page Talk:Moldova, article which covers a wide range of topics obviously related to Romania
6. , , - edit warring, WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at Moldova
7. , , - WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at Romanians
8. - WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at Legionnaires' rebellion and Bucharest pogrom
9. , , , , - Removal of sourced content, edit warring against multiple users, WP:OWN, blatant Soviet WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina
10. , , , - WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH, Moldovans not Romanians in census

• Constant anti-Romanian activities

1. , , - WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH on census related articles, to deliberately keep the number of Romanians low
3. , , , - Edit warring, WP:OWN at Dobruja

• Constant conflicts with many users violating civility parole and behave impeccable conditions from previous ban (appears to strive in conflict)

1. , , , - Conflict with User:Darkness Shines (insults, incivility)
2. , , , - Conflict with User:The Last Angry Man (reverts, insults, incivility)
3. , - Conflict with User:Man with one red shoe
4. , - Conflict with User:Constantzeanu
5. , , , , , - Conflict with User:Vecrumba (insults, incivility)
6. - Conflict with User:Logofat de Chichirez
7. , , - Conflict with User:Octavian8, reverts, insults, no communication
8. , , - Conflict with User:Estlandia, reverts, insults, no communication
9. - Conflict with User:DDima
10. - Conflict with User:Prometeu, insults

• Very negative attitude towards newcomers/inexperienced editors/IPs in stark contrast with WP:BITE

1. , , , - mostly reverts, insulting comments; no welcoming, no coaching; no dialog

He constantly fends accusations by attempting to falsely portray himself as some sort of "hero" trying to "save" Misplaced Pages from "nationalists" and "fascists", a typical, decades-old Soviet propaganda/cover. The fact that his user page has a morbid quote which reads "Viermuiesc fasciştii printre morţi şi tunuri." (in approximate translation "The fascists are swarming among the dead and guns") speaks for itself (mind you, other Wikipedians have user boxes, contributions and friendly messages). It is apparently a quote from Teodor Balş, one of the very few individuals who passionately opposed the Union of Wallachia and Moldavia in 1862, against the wishes of the majority of Romanians. Apparently Anonimu put it on his user page after returning from a previous ban, as a sign of a "positive return". With such a radical and aggressive position, I fail to see anything positive coming out of his contributions in the future, while the past and present already speak for themselves.

In the past I personally made countless attempts to invite him to collaboration, team work, and to created an enjoyable environment around the articles of shared interests. But by now it had become beyond doubt for me that this seems hopeless and impossible given his activities and agendas. The end result is never ending disruptions, a negative environment and lot of time spent trying recover articles from his disruptive edits or filing enforcement requests instead of working on quality content and something enjoyable.

And above all, I fail to see how he respects ANY of the conditions imposed after his ban was suspended.

The majority of his "contributions" are blatant breaches of these conditions imposed into him when his ban was provisionally suspended:

1. that you are subject to 1RR revert parole
2. that you are subject to civility parole
3. and you behave at all times impeccably

He also violated the closing provisions of the last arbitration enforcement request:

1. 1RR was violated, but no block is being issued. Anonimu is warned not to edit war.
2. Ask for advice from experienced editors
3. Anonimu is still under WP:1RR directly from Arbcom, and this topic area is covered by discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBMAC

I don't care if someone is communist, anti-communist, fascist or anti-fascist, pro-Soviet or anti-Soviet or whatever in his personal life (although being pro-communist or pro-Soviet in 2012 after knowing about the huge number of victims, it is a problem by itself!). But when it becomes a full time job to push such convictions on Misplaced Pages at any cost, along with incivility, disruptions and violations of WP:ARBMAC conditions I think it is big problem.

You may ask yourselves, why is this User:Codrinb re-opening the case on Anonimu and here is why. While putting a lot of effort and time from my personal life into creating something positive like WP:DACIA, Commons:WikiProject Romania, Commons:WikiProject Dacia, trying to stimulate activity at WP:ROMANIA, contributing over 1200 images, and with over 25k edits globally, I've been constantly WP:STALKed, sabotaged by Anonimu and/or colliding head on with his anti-Romanian views and activities. It is impossible not too. So for me, this is not personal and I am not here to make a profile on Anonimu or deal with arbitrations, but it has become unbearable to contribute in such a negative environment. But, as you can see, the majority of reported incidents are with a variety of other users and not with myself.

Because of all this situation and never ending disruptive editing, I am sadly forced again to request a thorough review of his case.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Minimally a topic ban on Moldova, Communism and possibly Romania related topics; Alternatively a block

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

notification diff

Discussion concerning Anonimu

Statement by Anonimu

I recommend admins actually check the diffs. If they really prove anything, is harassment on the part of Codrinb. The accusations of 1RR and incivility are simply spurious. Basically all the edits in the diff section are in the current version of the articles and were confirmed by other users or by talk page consensus. The others are simply reverts of simple vandalism (including BLP vandalism on Victor Ponta).Considering the rest of the statement is a long diatribe of slanderous comments and abject attacks against my persona, I request the user be sanctioned, and an interaction ban be imposed to prevent continued harassment. Anonimu (talk) 12:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Considering the severity and vileness of the personal attacks, I request the "Aditional comments" section of the comment be oversighted after the process is finished (I have no problem with the diffs, just with the defamatory statements.Anonimu (talk) 12:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I must point out that CodrinB doesn't seem to be able to make the difference between an edit and a revert. Thus I reiterate my request to any admin reading this to check the diffs. Anonimu (talk) 19:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Anonimu

User Anonimu seems to be very interested in a limited number of topics, namely dealing with Romania, Moldova and the Communist past of these states, and while this is perfectly legitimate and acceptable, the constant politically motivated tension that the user has encouraged - is not. As is the case with a number of historical and political related topics, these articles deal with a number of contentious issues, such as the role of communism in the two countries, the impact of Soviet occupation, the identity of the inhabitants of former Bessarabia, etc. While one cannot deny the occasionally positive effects of communist administration, user Anonimu has constantly and tirelessly pushed for a very one-sided interpretation related to these issues. What is however more concerning is that when other views are likewise presented in a way as to reflect the plethora of opinions on a given subject, Anonimu has constantly deleted, reverted and erased any other view except those reflecting his own. At least on two occasions, I believe, he has actually been warned about engaging in edit wars. Contrary to the comments above, the user's edits are not reflective of the pages as they stand now and are under no means reflective of a consensus. It would be great if Anonimu would step back and take a look at these comments and objectively assess himself whether there 'may just be some truth' to the issues brought up here. Having said that, I must also say that Anonimu has also contributed by creating maps or articles on a number of lesser known historical figures and I respect his contributions in those fields: I think that Misplaced Pages and its readers have only to gain if Anonimu decides to work on articles that - as described above - deal with Russian-born Romanian communist figures (as long as of course the negative effects of communism are not downplayed in the process). However, a topic ban on the really contentious topics related to Romania, Romanians, Moldova, Moldovans and the role of communism in these states as well as a serious warning would probably go a long way in ending some of the edit wars and adding neutrality to some of these topics.Dapiks (talk) 18:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Most of my edits presented in CodrinB are indeed alive (one surely isn't since you took care to revert it), and many are confirmed by explicit consensus. Also, please note that the WP does not have to give the same weight to all "opinions on a given subject"; per WP:WEIGHT, it has to follow mainstream scientific works, and occasionally can presents obsolete views such as those held in the past by nationalists, but not as if those view were accepted facts. As for the spurious claims I only wrote articles about Russian-born Romanian communists, this is just another spurious claim by CodrinB. I expected you to actually check the facts and not take CodrinB vituperation at its face value. Seems my ethical standards are too high.Anonimu (talk) 14:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Well WP does have to give the same weight to the plethora of opinions on a subject that is contentious. Obviously, if you will take the stance that WP does NOT have to do that even in such cases, then that explains most people's frustration above - namely, that you consider YOUR opinion as superior and therefore worthy of MORE weight then others which leads to you deleting anything that is not fitting YOUR IDEA of what WP should have on these subjects and ultimately leading to edit wars and uncivilly towards other 'inferior' contributors and their work. As to the articles you created, look, I really do not care if they are of Romanian-Russian communists or not - I said it once and I will say it again, I do believe that, even if they are, they are quite valuable to WP and its readers. My problem is not with your areas of interest and ideology but with your very politically-driven actions for many years now on a few selected topics where you just simply blatantly push for your own point of view at the expense of others'. Dapiks (talk) 17:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:UNDUE, a policy the WP community has agreed upon: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views". You can try to change it if you don't find it fair, but as long as the policy stays in its current form, it is the duty of s WP editors to enforce it, and remove undue weight given to fringe nationalist views.Anonimu (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Anonimu, this response is very illustrative of the issue I bring up above. Yes WP agrees that neutrality should represent all significant viewpoints without giving undue weight to minority views. The problem is that you want to have full control and monopoly over WHAT constitutes a significant view, a non significant view and a minority view, i.e. significant is what you believe, everyone else is part of a fringe nationalist insignificant minority view and thus their "nationalist" contributions should be erased and if there is more of them and if they persist well then engaging in un-civility and revert wars is perfectly fine - after all they are just a fringe minority so who cares? Right? Dapiks (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The only ones having "monopoly" over what's a prominent view are reputable sources. And attempting to "balance" a corpus of recent research with "sources" more than half a century old that have been scientifically superseded is indeed a violation of WP:UNDUE that every editor who is here to build an encyclopedia (as opposed to promoting his personal opinions) can and must correct.Anonimu (talk) 19:03, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

While some diffs may be more damning than others, the salient point is that we have here a pattern of incivility, a pattern of anything-but impeccable behavior, and a pattern of 1RR breaches. This following conditions still in effect allowing Anonimu to return to editing, and this following a previous AE report where it was very clearly emphasized to Anonimu that the conditions are still in effect. Unfortunately for Anonimu, spurious accusations of "harassment", "slanderous comments and abject attacks against my persona" and "severity and vileness of the personal attacks" should not and will not deflect from the main issue, which is his misconduct. Codrinb is a hard-working, productive contributor who volunteers his time in actually improving the project, adding content and bringing sense and structure to Romania-related pages. Unsurprisingly, his patience with Anonimu has been exhausted after numerous encounters with the latter's policy violations. Given how many productive editors he has rankled, it would not be an exaggeration to say that Anonimu has not only exhausted the patience of Codrinb, but also of the community as a whole. And given the undeniable pattern of miscreancy, I fully endorse calls by Codrinb and by Dapiks for at a minimum a topic ban from areas in which he finds himself in constant contentiousness and where he has proved unable to edit constructively, or simply a block. - Biruitorul 23:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Could you point out at least one 1RR breach? I expect an established user as yourself to have a better understanding of what 1RR actually means. As for your comments regarding a supposed "incivility" on my part, considering our past history and your repeated attempts to get me banned me so that nationalism can freely reign in Romania-related topics (generally not by your actions, but by your inaction and encouragement of users who believe there's an anti-Romanian - and by extension anti-Dacian and anti-Vlach - world conspiracy that seeks to belittle their nation), I think they are not relevant. Anonimu (talk) 00:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I see that Anonimu continues to accuse fellow editors, there's no need to bring any other examples, here's a clear example of him accusing an editor of scheming to promote nationalism. I think that goes against the "that you are subject to civility parole and you behave at all times impeccably" condition for which I understand his previous ban was lifted. man with one red shoe 01:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

So, I say Biruitorul is indulging Romanian nationalist editors, while CodrinB is accusing me of being some sort of Russian-paid anti-Romanian Soviet apologists, and I'm the uncivil one?Anonimu (talk)

I think that accusing people of indulging nationalist editors and accusing people of stereotypes as you did on talk:Moldova is a grave behavior, especially for somebody who is on civility probation (and it general it poisons the discussions). I don't know about CodrinB I suspect though he's not on civility probation and in any case an evil doesn't justify another. man with one red shoe 19:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Pointing out the existence of a personal history that may led to skewed views on the peers has nothing uncivil in it. It would have been ethical for Biruitorul to point out this history at the beginning of his comment, yet he didn't, so I had to make things clear.Anonimu (talk) 19:21, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I have read the edit differences presented in the case. In the first example ("1RR, incivility violations at Moldova"), Anonimu removed an unsourced statement saying, "At the census, citizens could declare only one nationality. Consequently, one could not declare oneself both Moldovan and Romanian" with the notation, "Demographics: on the census form, nationality had a fill-in field, anyone could declare anything it wanted". He removed it again saying, "nothing prevented them from filling in "Russo-Moldovano-Romano-Klingonian". He then added a tag ("Disputed-inline|Census forms") to the unsourced material which had been re-added. I do not see incivility. Many of the other differences presented are complaints from other editors, but do not include the differences to which they are complaining. The complainant writes, "I don't care if someone is communist...", then writes "although being pro-communist or pro-Soviet in 2012 after knowing about the huge number of victims, it is a problem by itself!" This seems to be a content dispute. TFD (talk) 03:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The census form in question seems to have a section labelled "Naţionalitate", with a fill in field. Admittedly, one might have difficulty writing in "Russo-Moldovano-Romano-Klingonian" through lack of space, but otherwise, it seems that Anonimu was pointing out a simple fact here. In contrast, user: man with one red shoe seems to be indulging in WP:OR, asserting that "it's pretty clear..." and "it stands to reason..." in spite of clear evidence that the census form itself did nothing other than ask for "Naţionalitate", and let the person concerned fill it in. I've no idea what else was going on, and whether the census was rigged or not, but to suggest that a form actually asks the question it did, rather than another one, hardly looks like a violation of anything. I suggest that Codrin.B, rather than giving us a long list of less-than-convincing 'violations' points out the most self-evident examples (if there are any), so we can see if there is a genuine problem, rather than this being just another content dispute/nationalistic custard-pie fight. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the long list of violations in itself is quite indicative of a 'problem'. And the list is by no means one of "less-than-convincing violations". But to answer your comment on the census, I do have to point out that although yes, there is a section labelled "Naţionalitate" and while in theory respondents were free to declare whatever they wanted including the aforementioned "Klingonian", 1) it is a very well known fact that observers noted how respondents were "encouraged" to declare "Moldovan" over "Romanian" (nobody disputes this and even in the edit wars this issue has never been called into question). 2) Secondly, whatever data respondents provide, the statistics institute does adjust responses such as "Klingon" for example. Do not expect to see a 0.02% Klingon population among the official data actually released. Moreover, some sources have argued that the same happened with a number of "Romanian" cases as well and in previous versions of the article a statement did exist about the issue (with a cited source) but I guess in the long line of edit wars somehow that "disappeared" as well. 3) Thirdly, respondents could indeed declare only one nationality - the space next to 'nationality' did not allow for one to declare "Moldovan-Romanian" for example. Lastly, if one reads the census data released, I think that it is quite self-evident that the official statistics do not include multiple responses as in the case of the Canadian Census for example. The resident-population in the country is divided among "Moldovans", "Russians", "Ukrainians", etc. without reporting a rubric for "Moldovan-Ukrainain" for example. This in itself I think proves - without the further need of explanation - that respondents could not declare more than 1 ethnic origin or declare "WHATEVER they wished" as it is assumed above. For that reason, the section that Anonimu deleted was actually quite sourced (just look over the rubrics released and you will notice the lack of multiple national responses). Dapiks (talk) 18:12, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What you fail to understand is there's no "long list of violations", just a long list of fairly random diffs. Just because I can surf through your edits and pick some links and list them doesn't mean you've done anything wrong (or anything good for that matter). Regarding the census: 1. It's a content dispute. 2. Arguments that start with "it is a very well known fact" or speak about "self-evident" facts are statistically most likely to contains fallacies. And you do prove statistics right. 3. Your attempt at explanation is nothing but original research, which is specifically forbidden per policy. Anonimu (talk) 18:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Uhm, no my explanation is simple logic - which as far as I know WP does not forbid. You just do not like it when people actually have the patience to explain for the 1000 time things that have been made quite clear on talk-pages before. What's worst is that you accuse them, this time accusing me of original research. Not very civil, I must say. I thought that even though you may have your own pre-conceived ideas, you are at least willing to listen. I see that I was wrong, you are truly just aggressively insulting anyone that does not agree with your views. Dapiks (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Simple logic is 1+1=2 or that 1 revert per day does not constitute 1RR. You argument, on the other hand, is based on a whole construction of unverified assumptions and "common knowledge". So you indeed engaged in original research, and there's nothing uncivil in remarking it. Anonimu (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Anonimu, are you on here like 24/7? I didn't even finish writing that comment and here you are always aiming to have the last word, regardless. Simple logic is when Anonimu speaks, when everyone else has something to say that is not 100% what Anonimu wants, then they are doing original research.Dapiks (talk) 19:36, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I actually ec-ed a lot, so the problems is others editing while I write my comments, that forces me to reread the comments to make sure my edit went live. I explicitly request you to stop putting words into my mouth.Anonimu (talk) 19:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If I may interject, since somebody talked about me in this section. I actually think it's good Anonimu brought that to the talk page, I just didn't like how he did it by accusing fellow editors of stereotyping. By the way, he was accusing editors by interpreting a primary source which was a clear WP:OR. I provided a reference removed the "debatable" content (although Dapiks explains pretty well why one could not declare multiple nationalities) and the matter was solved from what I could see since the edit lasted already a number of days. I don't have a problem with him raising the issue, I had a problem with how he did it. If you see his edits you'll see that he was a warring mentality and uses sarcasm and accusations a bit too much for somebody who is supposed to be on civility probation. man with one red shoe 18:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's nothing wrong with removing unsourced statements based on primary sources. If I would have edited the article to say "Citizens of Moldova could declare both Moldovan and Romanian <ref to primary source>", then indeed I would have been guilty of original research. There's a huge difference between people just re-adding unsourced statements because they feel like it, and adding referenced info, as you did. That's why I made no attempt to modify your edit, even if, if I were to believe Dapiks and Codrinb, I was expected to.Anonimu (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Let me tell you what's wrong, you claimed that because there's a write-in field people could declare themselves multiple nationality, that's original research, but again, this is not a content dispute, we can continue the discussion in talk:Moldova if this issue was not satisfactory solved, the problem is that you jumped to accuse people of stereotyping and indulging nationalism when you are under civility probation, I personally don't think that's very civil. man with one red shoe 19:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Removing unsourced statements doesn't require a source. It would be nonsensical.Anonimu (talk) 19:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

And more out of curiosity than anything else, if the quote on Anonimu's user page is indeed by Teodor Balş, would anyone be able to clarify how someone who seems to have died in 1857 could be writing about Fascists, swarming or otherwise? AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's another Teodor Balş , a Communist era poet.Estlandia (dialogue) 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. CodrinB's claim is as spurious as his every other claim, and comes due to his "anti-Romanian conspiracy" mindset. While it doesn't really matter what I put on my user page, the line is actually from a poem about the first major engagement between Romanian and Nazi troops after Romania quit the Axis in 1944. They even have a memorial plaque about it. Anonimu (talk) 13:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to comment or indulge in lengthy debates here about accusations and counter accusations. I already brought enough evidence and illustrated here a very long list of incivility, violations and very negative behavior. I didn't know that there is another "Theodor Balş", a Communist poet, although it is a very weird coincidence. Mea culpa for that but I am not reading much about communists. This is not my topic of interest at all. There is no bad faith here, but the quote from that poet still remains morbid and illustrative of an entire attitude, regardless of who the author is. The problem is who puts it on his user page and acts upon these ideas. Yes, some, many, of the diffs are also content disputes and can be addressed individually. And yes, over the years Anonimu learned how to win disputes and game the system. And yes, some of his comments on his almost daily "revert work" can look very convincing. However, despite his claims, downright lies, that consensus is reached upon his daily reverts, Anonimu almost NEVER starts a discussion on the talk pages of the articles before his reverts. That you can easily check if you have the patience. But you have to look deeper, as I didn't bring this diffs here to dispute the content. It is simply the wrong forum for that. And I can tell you (and you can see it from my edits) that I am personally not interested in Communism and Moldova. But I am interested in and disputing the incivility, the violations and the general negative behaviour here. I am glad to notice that many users came forward with the same issue about Anonimu's behaviour. At least I know I am not drunk when I see this obvious un-academic behaviour. So this is not Codrinb vs Anonimu or Anonimu vs Moldova. This is Anonimu vs his unacceptable behaviour. This is my last comment. I am busy working on many other projects and I don't like to waste time and dwell in negativity.--Codrin.B (talk) 15:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Nothing but the same disinformation already presented in the "Additional statement". However, now the coherence and language proficiency is much higher, and I wouldn't exclude 3rd party help in composing the message. Anonimu (talk) 16:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Anonimu why is this relevant? How is CodrinB's language proficiency of any relevance and who cares if he had third party help composing the message? Maybe he didn't, apparently he lives in the States, if I am not mistaken, where the language he would use in his every-day life is English. This is just another of your sneaky little personal attacks, as in "he gets 3rd party help" and thus 1) either he is part of a larger "nationalist" conspiracy to shut me up, ME the defender of the oppressed! Or 2) come on guys, don't take him seriously, after all he doesn't even write his own posts! Why do you not actually tackle the issue at hand? To every one of the messages above, your response is always "disinformation, nothing but disinformation and lies" without actually explaining WHY we should all just dismiss this as simply "disinformation and lies". Dapiks (talk) 17:38, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's about ethical standards and assuming your own opinions. And mixing Brit and American English is surely not what you'd expect from a text written by someone who uses English in every-day life. Also, per WP:AGF, I'm not required to assume good faith in the presence of obvious evidence to the contrary. And past evidence has explicitly shown that one of the editors who commented above has tried in the not so remote past to use behind-the-scenes means to get me banned. There's no "issue at hand", the diffs speak for themselves to anyone who cares to read them. Apparently not one of the editors accusing me of wrongdoing has done such.Anonimu (talk) 17:59, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This is beyond what I expected even from you Anonimu and I was really, really (!) ready to no write anything here anymore. I've been living in US for over 12 years, my English is not perfect yet is not my mother tongue. And yes, I don't like how Americans spell color and behavior, yet I am a US Citizen. US is a great and free country, where I can use the spelling of my choice, en WP doesn't belong to US, and this is not an article! I already made public who I am and where I live. I don't hide behind a name like "Anonimu", with near empty user and talk pages, with the only witness of their emptiness being the histories of your reverts against a multitude of warnings and even blocks accumulated over years! This is just another fine example of how Anonimu drives everyone nuts. Others write for me, really?!! Is that all you have to say against continuous blatant violations. All the 1RRs, edit wars violations reported above are real, they are the work of Anonimu and no one else. You can use all tactics on the book, but Misplaced Pages has a wonderful feature called "Page History" and if you have patience, you can see everything. I really hate the fact that I have to spend my time to write such a report and respond to all these miserable attacks. I ask, no, I really, really insist to the willing administrators to take the time and review in depth the entire activity of this individual. All his violations, all his reverts, all his fights, all the patterns of incivility and extremism. It will save a lot of time for everyone in the future.--Codrin.B (talk) 18:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, Anonimu, CodrinB is supposed to assume good faith but you are not? Don't you think that the reason why this issue is brought up here is because a number of people, not just CodrinB, think that you have constantly been pushing for a very one-sided view in a number of articles and when others have tried to correct the bias, you have engaged in revert wars with them? Anyone that cares to actually read the diffs and understands the issue at hand would most definitely agree that the issue is quite serious and quite real. Dapiks (talk) 18:38, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

To "correct the bias" means bringing articles closer to mainstream scholarship, not pushing views rejected by mainstream scholarship such as protochronism and ethnic nationalism. Please realize that WP works specifically because it's based on verifiability in reputable scholarship. For those who don't like the model, there's always Conservapedia and Metapedia.Anonimu (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for 'sending me to Conservapedia; honestly, I am quite surprised that I am not being sent to the gulag for 're-education' for "daring to say that your contributions betray a one-sided view of what is acceptable and what is not". As to the protochronism and ethnic nationalism, I guess anyone not agreeing with you is guilty of being a "nationalist" and should be banned to Conservapedia if possible. This is how you plan on defending the accusations of incivility brought against you?Dapiks (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I've sent you nowhere. Of course, if you feel you are better represented by their values than the ones of WP, I'm not going to be the one attempting to change your mind. And yes, I do think that promoting imaginary things like the Dacian script is protochronist, and dismissing several social studies that point out that Moldovans don't consider themselves Romanians is an expression of ethnic nationalism. If everybody would just follow mainstream, up-to-date sources, and not their own opinions, Misplaced Pages would be a better place, both for editors and readers.Anonimu (talk) 19:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Can I suggest that rather engaging in this unseemly back-and-forth 'debate', that those wishing for action to be taken against Anonimu select one or two of the most significant diffs, which they see as clear evidence of wrongdoing, explain exactly what is wrong, and then leave the issue to be sorted out by uninvolved parties? At the moment we've got a huge list of diffs, and selecting a few at random I couldn't see anything of significance - it isn't reasonable to expect people to trawl through the lot. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right that going through the entire list might be cumbersome but I think that just the presence of a huge list like that is itself illustrative of repeated wrongdoing. It would be very hard for all the people that wish for action to be taken against Anonimu to achieve a consensus on which cases to present (there is quite a lot of them, mind you :). Besides, I think that would only fuel Anonimu's belief that there is a "conspiracy" against him if everyone would start writing here on the "BEST" cases to put forth against him. I can only speak for myself but the examples I have brought up are generally on the few selected topics mentioned above. Dapiks (talk) 18:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Please try to make such a list of actual violations. I promise I won't hold it against you. Anonimu (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I already took the time to group all recent 1RR violations and significant edit wars in the top list. The WP:1RRs are multiple reverts in less then 24 hours. Someone just has to look and compare the dates of his edits. It is very easy. The rest of the lists and diffs are for incivility, the patterns and the agenda pushing. That would take some time to analyze by the willing ARBCOM members. --Codrin.B (talk) 18:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Could you specify the mathematical system you used in counting reverts? I tried again and again, and could not find more than 1 revert in 24 hours... Anonimu (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump, you are right, I wouldn't lose my time to go through those diffs myself, I just want to bring to your attention that on this very page Anonimu accused people of "indulging nationalist editors" and on talk:Moldova he accused fellow editors of stereotyping. This comes from somebody who is supposed to be "subject to civility parole and behave at all times impeccably". I don't think this kind of poisoning of the discussion is good even from an editor who is not under civility probation... Example, in this page he said to Talk: "your repeated attempts to get me banned me so that nationalism can freely reign in Romania-related topics", not only that he threw an accusation to Biruitorul, but this also shows that the editor has a warring mentality and he thinks he owns the Romania-related subjects and if not for him bad things would happen to Misplaced Pages, that's a dangerous mindset. man with one red shoe 19:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) MWORS, what else should I call people who reinstate unsourced POV opinions just because they think they are right? I consider "stereotyping" to be the most euphemistic way their action could be characterised.Anonimu (talk) 19:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Biruitorul's aversion towards me has went public anyway, so probably my statement that his desire to ban me was motivated just by his desire to give nationalism a free hand was an exaggeration. This doesn't change the fact that he wants be banned at all costs.Anonimu (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that you don't have any other choice but to accuse editors en masse when you don't like how something is treated in an article. You don't need to call editors anything, you just need to point that something is not properly sourced if that's the case. man with one red shoe 20:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't call editors anything, it was just a polite request to stop editing out of instinct. While quoting oneself is not generally considered in good taste, I have to do it here, so others can understand what I mean: "Dear fellow editors, please stop making decisions based on stereotypes, and actually check the facts".Anonimu (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• I do not know if anyone has patience to look through all diffs provided by Codrin.B. I checked randomly a few diffs in the end of his statement. This comment is clearly inappropriate. I also paid attention to this. A few last phrases are about US and Indians. This is clearly unrelated to the article under discussion. This is a soapboxing, a misuse of wikipedia article talk pages for political discussions, and Anonimu suppose to know this.Biophys (talk) 22:28, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

@Anonimu. Each of two diffs ends by your statement that another editor should not edit these subjects because he does not know the subject or allegedly involved in propaganda (according to you). Such "go away" statements should never be made on article talk pages because they only discourage participation and inflame passions. Would not you agree? Biophys (talk) 14:30, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That's absolutely not the case. Pointing out lack of knowledge is just an encouragement for the respective editor to study to subject. Simply going away at the slightest hint of criticism (as opposed to attempting to fix its causes) is certainly not a mature conduct.Anonimu (talk) 14:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

But they did not go away and complained on this noticeboard. Something should be wrong here. Is that because all of them are immature and do not know the subject (as you tell)? Biophys (talk) 16:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Some people probably think it's easier to get rid of the critic rather than to address the causes of criticism.Anonimu (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you are safe. The evidence is weak (a lot of diffs to edits by other users - they should not be here at all; the filer interprets each revert as a "conflict" and every criticism as incivility). Besides, you probably can not be sanctioned here (see first comment by Sandstein during the previous AE report about you). Biophys (talk) 21:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• • Regarding the first diff, the other user had stated facts that are bluntly rejected by reputable sources. The cause of such statements was either the lack of solid knowledge about the topic or a deliberate attempt at mystification. Naturally, by assuming good faith, I considered that the user had no desire to lie, and his statements were just the result of his attempt to apply familiar schema on unrelated events he had little knowledge of. I really don't understand how pointing out to an user that presenting personal opinions as facts is infringing on the values and policies of Misplaced Pages can be construed as inappropriate. As for the second diff (from 2010), the discussion was very much related to the article in question, as the other editor attempted to push an antiquated view based on a collection of nationalist slogans. Pointing out that those slogans have no applicability in the real world, with real-life examples to prove it, doesn't fall in any of the categories at WP:SOAP.Anonimu (talk) 13:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• I think in order to address the comments below where CodrinB's entire work to actually document Anonimu's wrongdoing will go to waste if indeed admins start the whole process from scratch, I propose we quickly collect the number of 1) technical infringements, 2) cases of incivility and 3) blatant cases of POV pushing like the minimizing known massacres of Romanians by Soviets (i.e. Fantana Alba). Everything else like pushing a certain political view betraying an effort at engaging in anti-Romanianism should just be left aside. After all nobody expects everyone to be 'neutral' (whatever that may mean) and for sure nobody gives a f@&% about the injustices and historical dramas of 'lesser' peoples nor about the insensitivity of certain people to those dramas. That is only up for us to remember and only up for us to make known to everyone else. CodrinB, if you check this, let's sort out a smaller list of what should constitute the summary of the complaint brought against Anonimu. Again I propose we focus on the actual technical infringements - which would be the first section of your presentation. Dapiks (talk) 00:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I am really not sure how a case like this can be dismissed on the grounds of verbosity of the reporter. There are a number of clarifications that need to be made:

1. I already grouped the fundamental set of diffs in the standard section named: "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it". That section alone should be enough in my opinion to validate the request for enforcement and verify the technical violations. If you think that even that section is too long, I can create a subset.
2. I listed many other diffs in the section "Additional comments by editor filing complaint" for two fundamental reasons:
   1. The case is very complex, with a number of obvious POV agendas that have to be reviewed to better understand the case and needed to be exemplified with diffs (otherwise any statements or allegations will be just speculative or easy denied)
   2. To illustrate the very large number of violations and how widespread they are

But even if you choose to ignore this second section in its entirety, the section "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it" should give you that concise list.

While I understand the need to be concise, I am not versed with these kind of reports (honestly this is not why I joined Misplaced Pages as a contributor) and I wasn't aware of a limit of diffs. I thought the more documented the case, the better. I am puzzled but happy to bring any needed clarify or to summarize anything that needs to be summarized. My intention was not bombard anyone with a plethora of information or diffs, to give more work to overloaded ARBCOM members but to present a very complex case in detail.--Codrin.B (talk) 01:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

How about this list? If the admins do not have the time to look over the Optional sections that's fine but it is there only to illustrate the incivility of the user.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 05:24, 11 February 2012, 20:45, 11 February 2012, - 1RR, incivility violations at Moldova
2. 12:44, 20 January 2012, 16:38, 20 January 2012, 16:54, 20 January 2012, 14:04, 25 January 2012 - 1RR, incivility violations at {{History of Romania}}
3. , , , , - edit warning, article locked for edit warring, 1RR violation at Communist Romania
4. , , - 1RR Violation at Victor Ponta
5. , - 1RR violation at Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina
6. , , - Edit warring, near 1RR violation at Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism
7. 13:46, 14 February 2012 15:28, 15 February 2012 - Edit warring, cleverly dodged 1RR violation (timed it to be 24h + 1h42min later) at Moldovans
8. , , - attack on WP:ROMANIA main project page, edit war, cleverly dodged 1RR violation, vandalism, WP:STALK

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 3 October 2011‎ by The Last Angry Man (talk · contribs) (his response was to remove and ignore the warning)
2. Warned on 14 January 2012 by Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) (his response was to remove and ignore the warning)
3. Warned on 20 January 2012 by Codrinb (talk · contribs) (his response was to remove and ignore the warning)

Additional (Optional) List illustrating Edit Wars, Attempt at Deleting Articles and Sourced Content

1. , , , - Edit warring, WP:OWN, WP:POV pushing at Fântâna Albă massacre, removal of valid templates like Template:Anti-communism in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, shocking "dialogs" on the Talk:Fântâna Albă massacre, considering this is an article about a massacre
2. , , , - Attack on, later removal/redirect of article, on Valeriu Boboc, a recent victim killed by the Pro-Russian Communist regime in Moldova during 2009 riots; also trying to downplay the involvement of the government in the victims death
3. , , , , - Removal of sourced content, edit warring against multiple users, WP:OWN, blatant Soviet WP:POV pushing/WP:PUSH at Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina

Additional (Optional) Constant Conflicts with many users violating civility parole and behaving under impeccable conditions from previous ban (appears to strive in conflict)

1. , , , - Conflict with User:Darkness Shines (insults, incivility)
2. , , , - Conflict with User:The Last Angry Man (reverts, insults, incivility)
3. , - Conflict with User:Man with one red shoe
4. , - Conflict with User:Constantzeanu
5. , , , , , - Conflict with User:Vecrumba (insults, incivility)
6. - Conflict with User:Logofat de Chichirez
7. , , - Conflict with User:Octavian8, reverts, insults, no communication
8. , , - Conflict with User:Estlandia, reverts, insults, no communication
9. - Conflict with User:DDima
10. - Conflict with User:Prometeu, insults

• Very negative attitude towards newcomers/inexperienced editors/IPs in stark contrast with WP:BITE

1. , , , - mostly reverts, insulting comments; no welcoming, no coaching; no dialog

Again, nothing but spurious accusations, non-differentiation between edits and reverts, interpreting the very act of reverting as incivility, and presenting content disputes and associated talk page discussion as "conflicts". (Did I mention a lot of the diffs are from 2007 and 2009?). I really had enough of all this insults regarding me being "anti-Romanian" (which is ludicrous due to the very fact that I'm a Romanian myself) and a Soviet apologist, so I request admins take steps to stop this harassment.Anonimu (talk) 07:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Just because you are Romanian doesn't mean you are not engaging in incivility, revert wars and POV pushing. Dapiks (talk) 16:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Anonimu's response is typical of his blatant misdirection, as he has been the chief POV proponent of a Moldovan identity completely cleaved and apart from Romanian. The effect of 50 years of Soviet propaganda was so pervasive (Moldovan a separate language, separate alphabet--a bastardized Russian Cyrillic), that after the fall of the USSR, for year whenever someone from Romania was interviewed in Moldova in the media, the first question was always, "Do you understand the Moldovan language?" At which point the Romanian being interviewed would have to point out to the interviewer's genuine shock that it's the same language. Anonimu's edit history in this regard, and in ameliorating Soviet acts and the Soviet legacy, is incontrovertible. Other editors have already addressed the endless incivility—the inability to disagree without adding insults or making wildly absurd claims. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 16:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I must intervene (hope it is not too late) and mention that what previous users mentioned is largely true. I think it is obvious that the main edits by anonimu are reverts in the Romania/Moldavia topics. It appears that anonimu confuses pro-romanian edits with pro-romanian-nationalistic-fascist-nazi edits. Most of my contributions were reverted by user anonimu. I must point the fact that the user refused to use the talk page with me but overused the edit button. Some times the user simply reverted with no reason a claim by 4 sources. This user was banned in the past for 2-3 times (i think) on the same grounds so it could not be the case for a "public relations campaign" against him. It is obvious that he has a negative attitude and harasses other users and i am not sure that he can bring contributions to wikipedia. Although he considers pro-romanian edits as nationalistic he also regards pro-soviet-russian-ukrainian-communist edits as normal, as best viewed in the difference betwen the article Tatarbunary Uprising which he considers (probably) fascist and Khotin Uprising with wich he has no problem. Although he had numerous reverts and edits to the first article, he used his edit power to leave the second article intact.Prometeu (talk)

I think it is pretty obvious that Anonimu is being subjected here to a gang up of sorts, by a clique of editors, with whom there are content disputes. I have let Anonimu know that his interpretation of this request is not unique -- User_talk:Anonimu#Poor_language_skills_but_now_they_are_good.3F -- if one looks at the 3 points I raised with him there, one will see that we have a problem here, and it isn't with Anonimu. Because of the sheer number of diffs which have been mischaracterised by numerous editors, I hope that WP:BOOMERANG is going to apply here, and in great numbers too. Russavia 09:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course if you want to de-legitimize the fact that a number of people (not just 1 or 2) have a lot of complaints about the same individual, one will go for the very tempting and cheap attacking remark that "the person in question is "OBVIOUSLY" being subjected to a gang-up. Of course the other way to look at it is, what has this one person done to get such a 'gang' so frustrated that they would 'gang-up' on him here? Well perhaps the answer is in the list (remember this time it is a summary) of infringements and incivility-cases above. Before people go and say that "some of the points in that list are not obvious", please instead of doing that, go over them one by one and point out which ones are valid or not. I can understand Russavia's jump-in here in favor of Anonimu. Both share a great affinity for all things Russian, communist, etc. But I really caution that when looking at this case, you leave ideology and personal attachments aside and actually look at the evidence.Dapiks (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for advising me that I need to update my OS to include an affinity for all things communist. Can you please advise me where I can download this patch, because I am having trouble finding it. As to your complaints, the complaints are thin, and in the vast majority of cases are outdated (in some cases by 2-3 years). People have labelled things as "incivility" when it is nothing of the sort. People have labelled things as "disputes" when it is discussion. It appears to me that the saying that the mere number of diffs being evidence of so-called problematic behaviour is something that I have been subjected to in the past -- i.e. you fling enough shit at an editor, whether there is any basis for it or not, and you simply hope that some of it sticks. Obviously such editors are hoping to come across some clueless admin, who won't even be bothered to check diffs and the like, and given that numerous editors are producing bunk diffs, that they will simply give those who are complaining in a frivolous manner what they want -- i.e. the removal of someone who is obviously an obstacle to their own agenda -- in this case, it could be, nationalistic in nature (Romanian nationalist). AE is not a venue to engage in battleground behaviour to get rid of so-called editorial opponents, and it's use for such things should result in a big boomerang against those editors. I would suggest that editors who have brought this request to AE, either drop it and get back to editing, otherwise, as I am totally NOT involved, I may have to have a look at other editors and present some diffs of my own which will show problematic behaviour -- the problem is, in such situations, no-one is innocent. Amirite? Russavia 16:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If it wasn't clear already, such comments prove once more that the users who throw spurious accusations at me are convinced they are engaged in a crusade against anti-Romanians (Russians, communists, etc.).Anonimu (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, I can't believe the nerve you have to come here to coach Anonimu on how to game the system with lies about my language skills, to call admins clueless and make outrageous threats for everyone to drop one of the worse cases of incivility, violations and extremism. You are the one ganging up, by clearly coming to the help of your fellow Russophile (as you declared yourself and it is obvious from your activities), despite his extreme views and attitudes, attempting to steer the discussion about Anonimu's despicable behaviour to some sort of anti-Russian conspiracy. The one and only reason so many users are here to make statements not at all favorable to Anonimu, it is his OWN behavior (OPPOSITE to impeccable) and his repeated failures/lack of interest to collaborate and communicate respectfully. Given your long history of blocks, you should be the last person coming here with empty threats. --Codrin.B (talk) 19:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, my block log is very telling isn't it. Especially the block log around 2009. Those blocks, and the reasons behind them, have given me great insight into the tactics being used right here at this enforcement request. I hope that admins are not as clueless now as they were back then. What we have here is numerous editors editing from one-POV (which we'll call the pro-Romanian POV) trying to get rid of an editor who is not so much editing from an anti-Romanian/pro-Communist/pro-Soviet POV, but rather who is trying to ensure that the pro-Romanian POV isn't being given undue weight in articles. Unfortunately, because so many editors edit from a nationalistic/ideological POV to begin with, without ensuring that other POV is present on an equal basis as per WP:UNDUE, editors such as Anonimu are required to balance the POV that exists in many articles. And because of the resistance of the nationalistic/ideological editor, editors such as Anonimu are presented as being the problem -- when matter-of-factly, it isn't editors such as Anonimu who are the problem, but the other way around. I've seen it time and time again. It is one of the biggest problems which Misplaced Pages faces, and which needs to be sorted out. Russavia 19:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey, anonimu does not contribue, he just deletes and reverts everything. Even though he has the chance to modify a statement in order to keep a POV he just ...deletes/reverts W/WO reason. It is all the contribution that he makes. In my encounters with anonimu i had spent a lot of time thinking of how to rephrase a statement in order to avoid paranoid reverts. He could just modify it, but he chooses to revert it until the other user find some form that he pleases. Anonimu also refuses to use the talk page but has a great joy in edit wars. In the case of a anti-anonimu conspiracy it could not be the case as previous bans on him were as a result of different views by other users. I have been on wikivacantion for a year, and now i am back just to participate here.Prometeu (talk)

I find your last sentence extremely intriguing. Quoting yourself: "I have been on wikivacantion for a year, and now i am back just to participate here." This obviously raises numerous questions which need an answer to. You are of course not the only editor who has seen fit to return to editing here, seemingly just to participate in this discussion. It appears that you have been canvassed as per User_talk:Prometeu#ARBCOM_Notice. Given that canvassing has been a problem in the past on the project, I draw your attention to Misplaced Pages:EEML#Canvassing. That you have seen fit to return from an over one-year wikivacation after being canvassed to help to get rid of a wiki-opponent is troubling. In fact, looking at it, other canvassing appears to have occurred here. Numerous editors have been "canvassed" by User:Codrinb. Anonimu; given that you are involved here, can you point out any other editors whom should have been informed of this request, but haven't been? I am sure that admins here would especially be interested of knowing about any editors who may have been supporting yourself in discussions, yet weren't notified of this request. Because thus far, from the editors who were canvassed, it would appear it has been done on a selective basis. Russavia 23:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The extensive canvassing by CodrinB & Co. only shows that they have no case against me based on WP policy, and their only hope is to collect enough users who believe in an "anti-Romanian conspiracy", so as to confuse an admin tired of going through tens of irrelevant diffs into sanctioning me. As the diff prove no wrongdoing on my part (unless one thinks that debunking Romanian nationalist myths with reliable secondary literature, cleaning simple vandalism or removing BLP violations is something wrong), I don't think I should notify users who may have supported my positions in the past. And again, the very fact that most of the mainspace edits presented as "incriminating diffs" are still live (the ones that aren't were almost exclusively in articles with very few watchers and were reverted by the editors accusing me above), and were confirmed by implicit or explicit consensus, shows that I have violated no WP policy. I think any admin should be able to make a judgement by himself by looking at the diffs with WP policy in mind (although there's always the risk of observer-expectancy effect and confirmation bias, I hope the admin selection process is doing a good enough job to exclude people prone to such fallacies).Anonimu (talk) 08:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Anonimu

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Oversight may not be used for those purposes.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• We need to have some sort of word and diff limit for AE requests. These threads have routinely become unwieldy. For now, the filer is requested to provide a concise summary of this request, not to exceed 250 words, along with no more than 20 representative diffs illustrating the alleged misconduct. If you can't make out a case for sanctions in 20 diffs, you probably don't have a case anyway. T. Canens (talk) 06:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
• I'm sorely tempted to just close this as completely tl;dr and make everyone start over again. Everyone above should be warned that we won't decide whether or not to sanction someone based on word count, and excessive verbosity will in fact do a lot to weaken your case. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Al Ameer son

Tiamut

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Tiamut

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

71.204.165.25 (talk) 15:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Tiamut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 15:55, 19 February 2012 reverts this edit by Knowitall369, who changed "the Israeli military can hold detainees for an indefinite period without charge or evidence if it deems them to be security threats" to "Israel can detain persons who pose a security threat for a period of up to six months, without formal criminal proceedings. ". This is acknowledges in the edit summary that says "restore part of what was there"
2. 08:32, 20 February 2012 reverts this edit by Brewcrewer, which added the phrase "sometimes utilizing women and children." This, too, is acknowledges in the edit summary "removing undue statement from lead"
3. 08:32, 20 February 2012 reverts this edit by Brewcrewer, which removed the "is said to be" phrase , and Taimut restores it

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Tiamut was one of the original parties to ARBPIA, so I don't believe a formal "warning " is needed, nonetheless, there are numerous ones:

1. Warned on Jan , 2008 by Rlevse (talk · contribs)
2. Warned on Dec, 2011 by Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Tiamut has a long history of edit warring in the topic area (as noted above, her conduct was the subject of the original ARBPIA), and a corresponding block log consisting of 5 blocks for edit warring in the topic area, the last one a week long block.

@Tiamut: You recent spat of edits reverted numerous things. I picked out the most obvious revert, to make it easier for the admins monitoring this board to see it was a revert. But there are others- e.g, in the same diff I listed about you changed "He is a member of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) " to "He is said to be a member of the", thereby undoing this edit by brewcrewer. There are many more, but I don;t have the time to go over a series of 2 dozen or more edits to detail every one of them, when i have shown you clearly reverted 1RR. As to what you can do - you can revert ALL your edits made today, discuss them on the Tak page, get consensus for them, and re-add those with consensus tomorrow. 71.204.165.25 (talk) 17:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

User's talk page is semi-protected, someone else needs to notify her, as I can't.

Discussion concerning Tiamut

Statement by Tiamut

The 1RR rule is to prevent edit warring and not impede article development. I don't believe I've violated 1RR, but perhaps I don't understand what counts as a revert anymore since the changes made some time ago. No one has indicated any problem with these edits on the talk page. If they had, I would have worked to ddress their concerns. I would self-revert, but I'm not sure what to self-revert. Help please? Tiamut 16:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Should I restore "women and children"to the lead? Please note that I removed it based on the discussion on the talk page betweed Al Ameer son and Brewcrewer, where the latter, who added the text, agreed it could be removed. Tiamut 16:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sir/Madam IP, I would appreciate it if you could take your concerns with my edits to the talk page. No one there has yet raised any objections. As I said, if they had, I would have worked to come towards agreement on how to proceed. I'm not going to undo all my edits to the article as they include additions unrelated to other editors' additions. Also, I did not simply revert the text back to "He is said to be" - I changed it to "Media reports indicate ..." (check this diff which compares the article as it stands now after my uninterrupted sies of changs, following Brewcrewer's uninterrupted series of changes). I don't understand how my changes can be consided edit warring, when no one has objected to them, and my edits are not really reverts. Tiamut 18:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Tiamut

Comment by asad

What exactly is the violation being claimed here? That Tiamut made two reverts of different material? That is not a violation. -asad (talk) 16:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Shrike

@Asad : It doesn't matter if its different material.From WP:3RR "Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert."--Shrike (talk) 17:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Al Ameer son

Another ridiculous thread wasting everyone's time. Tiamut did nothing wrong, she's just improving the article. Concerning the first diff, she just made a correction and concerning the second diff, Brewcrewer and I agreed to remove the line "sometimes utilizing women and children" per WP:Undue. Tiamut just made the edit for us. See Talk:Khader Adnan#WP:Undue for clarification. The article has thus far been stable and no edit warring has taken place. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by RolandR

This is becoming ridiculous. These edits look like any regular edit to me, and if they are held to be reverts then the process of editing Misplaced Pages becomes impossible. I can't see that they "reverse the edits of other editors", and they are certainly not edit-warring. Tiamut is trying to improve a contentious article, and it would take an incredible amount of bad faith to see any of her actions here as sanctionable.

Meanwhile, the originating IP, who shows a surprisingly strong awareness of this noticeboard for an apparently new editor, has never been formally notified of ARBPIA. I suggest that an admin formally notify them. RolandR (talk) 17:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Shuki

Curious arguments here in what I see as a parallel AE to my recent one where I was sanctioned. When I was being judged, the defenders here were against my 'what me?' claims and now they are defending Tiamut. Ho-hum...--Shuki (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by The Devil's Advocate

There are two diffs provided, though the IP seems to imply there are three by listing the same diff twice. Two appear to be clear reverts, with the other apparently based on Brew's own suggestion about the edit he made, but one could be reasonably seen as a BLP violation. Whether these should even be counted as separate reverts at all is questionable. The only intervening edits by an editor other than Tiamut between the two diffs the IP has provided is a single bot edit. I think it violates the spirit of the rule to suggest they should not be counted as a single revert just because of a single routine bot edit.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Brewcrewer

I don't understand this complaint. There are some UNDUE and NPOV issues with Tiamut's edits but there's no 1RR violation or anything else that would merit AE review.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Prioryman

This IP contributor looks very much like another sock of NoCal100 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Can we please have a checkuser look at it? It certainly doesn't pass the smell test for me. Prioryman (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Tiamut

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I'm really not seeing anything here with much substance. Prioryman, if you think the IP is a sock of NoCal100, open an SPI or see if you can get a checkuser willing to take a look; if it is, I'll close this down. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I asked a CU privately to look into the IP, but he didn't come up with anything. I have given them a formal notification of the case, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

86.153.139.153