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Article cross-talk
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Use of cross-talk page
This section is transcluded from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Objectivism/Cross talk. (edit | history)There doesn't seem to be much use of the Objectivism cross-talk page lately. I'm the only one who has used it since February. Is it still relevant? --RL0919 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps not. Although I love it, I have to say it now seems like an esoteric feature. Karbinski (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Ron Paul & Paul Ryan (and other Politicians) influenced
The article says that Rand influenced US congressmen Ron Paul and Paul Ryan. I don't really understand the reasoning behind this. I can sort of see why Ron Paul would be on this list (even though the only thing he seems to agree with Ayn Rand on is free market economies), but having Paul Ryan on this doesn't make much sense at all. And if the only reason why they're both on this list is because they all agree on which economic system is better, how does this qualify these two for being put on this list? I could name well over a thousand politicians who support or supported free markets and put them on the list, as well. I want to remove these names, but first I would like some reasoning or citations as to why their mentions are relevant. Linking the reasoning of politicians to famous philosophers just doesn't seem practical, to me. WikiGavel (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC).
- They are listed because of specific sources that say Rand influenced them, not because of inference. Their names used to be listed in the main body of the article with the sources cited there, but subsequent editing removed the names of specific politicians from the body in favor of a more general statement, so now their particular names only appear in the infobox. If you want to check the sources I could dig them up from a past version of the article. --RL0919 (talk) 14:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I would appreciate seeing a source, for clarification on this. WikiGavel (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- The last ones used before the names were removed from the article body are included in the reference note now used to support the general statement that "Republican Congressmen and conservative pundits have acknowledged her influence on their lives and recommended her novels." That's currently note 164, which cites "Gladstein 2009, p. 124; Heller 2009, p. xi; Doherty 2009, p. 51; Burns 2009, p. 283". Specifically, I know that Ron Paul is mentioned in the Heller book, and Paul Ryan in the Doherty article. The latter is available online here. There are other sources that could be cited; for example, Rand's influence on Ron Paul is mentioned in Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand. HTH --RL0919 (talk) 01:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- There are many sources to go through in this regard. Senator Ron Johnson was attacked for his admiration of Rand in the debates he had prior to his election with the former incumbent Russ Feingold. Far from backing down, he defended Rand and 'Atlas Shrugged', specifically. See, and for example. And this was not an isolated instance with the current crop of "Tea Party" Republicans.Oolyons (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Here's a source for Ryan: . It's hostile to Rand, but stresses her substantial, not mere "pro forma" influence on Ryan.Oolyons (talk) 18:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Martin Anderson, i.e., Ronald Reagan's first chief domestic policy adviser, was an actual student of Rand's, giving substance to Reagan's own claim to being an "admirer" of Rand. See McConnell, Scott, 100 Voices: an Oral History of Ayn Rand, 2010, New American Library, pp. 264-267, and Skinner, Anderson and Anderson, eds., Reagan: a Life in Letters, 2003, New York: Free Press, p. 181-182. Oolyons (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC).
- On the Michael Savage radio show on January 30, 2012, Congressman Allen West went out of his way to recommend Atlas Shrugged. It's ubiquitous. Oolyons (talk) 04:41, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Martin Anderson, i.e., Ronald Reagan's first chief domestic policy adviser, was an actual student of Rand's, giving substance to Reagan's own claim to being an "admirer" of Rand. See McConnell, Scott, 100 Voices: an Oral History of Ayn Rand, 2010, New American Library, pp. 264-267, and Skinner, Anderson and Anderson, eds., Reagan: a Life in Letters, 2003, New York: Free Press, p. 181-182. Oolyons (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC).
- Here's a source for Ryan: . It's hostile to Rand, but stresses her substantial, not mere "pro forma" influence on Ryan.Oolyons (talk) 18:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- There are many sources to go through in this regard. Senator Ron Johnson was attacked for his admiration of Rand in the debates he had prior to his election with the former incumbent Russ Feingold. Far from backing down, he defended Rand and 'Atlas Shrugged', specifically. See, and for example. And this was not an isolated instance with the current crop of "Tea Party" Republicans.Oolyons (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- The last ones used before the names were removed from the article body are included in the reference note now used to support the general statement that "Republican Congressmen and conservative pundits have acknowledged her influence on their lives and recommended her novels." That's currently note 164, which cites "Gladstein 2009, p. 124; Heller 2009, p. xi; Doherty 2009, p. 51; Burns 2009, p. 283". Specifically, I know that Ron Paul is mentioned in the Heller book, and Paul Ryan in the Doherty article. The latter is available online here. There are other sources that could be cited; for example, Rand's influence on Ron Paul is mentioned in Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand. HTH --RL0919 (talk) 01:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- I would appreciate seeing a source, for clarification on this. WikiGavel (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Mises shouldn't be listed as an influence
Yes, Rand said Mises was an influence of her understanding of ECONOMICS, but Rand was not an economist and never attempted to be one. She wrote philosophy and fiction, and, as such, her listed influences should be limited to those who made work on philosophy and fiction that influenced her philosophy and fiction. If we include Mises, we might as well include someone who influenced her choices in wardrobe, or a musician (if she played an instrument), etc. Having Mises as an influence when she never wrote on economics implies Mises influenced her philosophy/fiction writing style, which he didn't. Byelf2007 (talk) 26 December 2011
- Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to follow sources. There are multiple secondary sources that say he influenced her, and some of these attribute influence beyond just economics. If you can find that type of support for someone who influenced her wardrobe, you can argue for putting it in. Until then, personal opinions that are not supported by sources are not an appropriate basis for editing articles. --RL0919 (talk) 01:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- Which source(s) attribute his influence as pertaining to philosophy and/or fiction writing? Byelf2007 (talk) 26 December 2011
- I don't accept that only influence on "philosophy and fiction" should be considered. If reliable sources consider influence in other areas to be significant, then your personal opinions to the contrary are not definitive. That said, here are a few sources:
- "Rand was strongly influenced in developing her political philosophy by ... the Austrian-school economist Ludwig von Mises." (The Libertarian Reader, p. 418)
- "A more important intellectual influence for Rand was Hayek's mentor, Ludwig von Mises ...." (Goddess of the Market (updated: this is from her dissertation, not the book of the same name), p. 77)
- This could be an influence on her views on economics only. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- Rand's views of economy were integrated into her philosophical system, unlike those of many economists. — DAGwyn (talk) 10:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- "Her total free market vision ... drew much from that of Ludwig von Mises." (The Encyclopedia of the History of American Management, p. 434)
- Again, "free market vision" is vague and could be limited to economics. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- " said to me, 'I don't agree with him epistemologically, but as far as my economics and political economy are concerned, Ludwig von Mises is the most important thing that's ever happened to me.'" (100 Voices, p. 166)
- I think four sources making these types of very explicit statements should be sufficient to say he influenced her. --RL0919 (talk) 01:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's two sources that appear to check out, so that's sufficient; I put Mises back in. I'm not aware of any Bastiat or Hazlitt sources for influence on political views, however. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- Once again I do not accept your arbitrary limitations on what types of influence could be considered. Regardless, Hazlitt is probably a marginal case, and I haven't found the sort of obvious, explicit "X influenced her" type of statements that are so easily found for Mises. (They definitely had a personal and professional relationship, but that's not the same thing.) As for Bastiat, I'm not sure how he even got on the list, and I doubt an influence could be sourced. --RL0919 (talk) 03:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's two sources that appear to check out, so that's sufficient; I put Mises back in. I'm not aware of any Bastiat or Hazlitt sources for influence on political views, however. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- I don't accept that only influence on "philosophy and fiction" should be considered. If reliable sources consider influence in other areas to be significant, then your personal opinions to the contrary are not definitive. That said, here are a few sources:
- Which source(s) attribute his influence as pertaining to philosophy and/or fiction writing? Byelf2007 (talk) 26 December 2011
Ayn Rand's fundamental differences with Mises were many, and her political orientation itself appears not to owe anything to Mises directly (nor is such an influence argued for in the recent biographies on Rand). Her (published) margin notes on her own copies of Mises' books, Human Action and Bureaucracy, indicate her vehement disagreement with Mises on philosophical issues, while her admiration of his work purely as an economist is reflected in the high but qualified praise Mises' writing got in the journals Rand herself published, edited and endorsed in the 1960s. See, e.g., "Books: Human Action," The Objectivist Newsletter, vol. 3, no. 9, Sept., 1963, and Mayhew, Robert, ed., Ayn Rand's Marginalia, 1995, New Milford, CT: Second Renaissance Books, pp. 104-144. Oolyons (talk) 19:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- How does her diagreeing with Mises on several issues invalidate a realiable source that says he was an influence to her in developing her philosophy? Keep in mind that Rand didn't hold a number of the views that would later be included in Objectivism back when he was influencing her. Byelf2007 (talk) 24 January 2011
- No, in fact, her ideas changed very little. For this see, "Woman for all Seasons", . The reply from Prof. Burns (who is cited above), author of Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, is here: . Even in her reply, Prof. Burns notes that, "In comparison to the figures , who made some of the wildest swings in ideology imaginable, Rand was a paragon of consistency. It is to her credit that she saw Communism for what it was right from the start – though she had 'inside information' that most American intellectuals lacked..." Nor does Burns dispute the fact that Rand's basic political orientation itself dated from her childhood admiration of Alexander Kerensky, and teenaged admiration of America. And nor is there any evidence that Rand ~ ever ~ shared any of Mises' epistemological approach, his utilitarianism in ethics, or any other aspect of his basic, philosophical ideas. What we require here is some idea later found in Objectivism that he actually provided to Rand. There is nothing to indicate that there were any. Oolyons (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You assert that Rand did not hold all of her later philosophical ideas "back when was influencing her". However, her margin notes in Human Action, for example, appear to have been written upon her first reading of the book, containing exclamation marks ("!") and items like, e.g., "Good God!", along with her many substantive comments. These same notes show her strong disagreements along the very same lines as her later thought would suggest. Mayhew, Robert, ed., Ayn Rand's Marginalia, 1995, New Milford, CT: Second Renaissance Books, pp. 104-144. What we need is evidence of some idea, ANY idea, he could have provided her, i.e., some substance to the claim of influence. Oolyons (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- For example, the most basic idea in Rand's mature political thought is that of individual rights. Mises did not adhere to any variety of natural or normative rights theory whatever. Rand's hero in her 1943 novel (The Fountainhead) advocates rights based on Rand's fundamental approach, and it is pretty much the same as her later view. But I don't think there's evidence that she had read any Mises at that point. Oolyons (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a forum for debating if/how Rand's ideas changed over the years. Please take such matters to a discussion board, Facebook or whatever. Multiple reliable sources explicitly describe Mises as an influence on Rand. You can reply to yourself a dozen times with more arguments about how they differ, but none of that changes what the sources say. Find reliable sources that explicitly say he had no influence on her, and we can talk about that. --RL0919 (talk) 21:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course not, but Rand's own opinion about this is voiced in her well known assertion that Aristotle alone was a ~ philosophical ~ influence (an important distinction) on her. See "About the Author", Atlas Shrugged. Moreover, we have just cited her own notes. And her own notes -- as she reads Mises -- have been published. Perhaps you dispute the idea that Rand herself is a "reliable source" about her influences? These notes also show ~ her own opinion ~ of precisely how little the "influence" was, for example, of Human Action, even as that alleged influence was supposed to be happening. I have also already cited another source directly arguing that Rand's philosophical ideas, in general, changed very little over the years and arguing that her own claims about what influenced her are credible. All of this is enough to require inclusion of Rand's own opinion on the matter, that is, if Mises is to be claimed as a influence on her philosophy here. In any case, is it really too much just to ask what, exactly, the suggested influence could have been? And are we to include the demonstrably impossible just because someone claims it to be so? Oolyons (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I asked you a simple question which you didn't answer: how does Rand disagreeing with Mises mean he didn't influence her philosophical views when we have a reliable source saying he did so. You haven't answered this, and have only doubled down on this like, saying, effectively, "You guys just don't get it--she REALLY disagreed with him" (which I'm not denying). You don't appear to know enough about Rand's views to know that she vehemently disagreed with Aristotle on a lot more than with Mises. Does this somehow invalidate Aristotle being an influence on her philosophical views? Of course not.
- Of course not, but Rand's own opinion about this is voiced in her well known assertion that Aristotle alone was a ~ philosophical ~ influence (an important distinction) on her. See "About the Author", Atlas Shrugged. Moreover, we have just cited her own notes. And her own notes -- as she reads Mises -- have been published. Perhaps you dispute the idea that Rand herself is a "reliable source" about her influences? These notes also show ~ her own opinion ~ of precisely how little the "influence" was, for example, of Human Action, even as that alleged influence was supposed to be happening. I have also already cited another source directly arguing that Rand's philosophical ideas, in general, changed very little over the years and arguing that her own claims about what influenced her are credible. All of this is enough to require inclusion of Rand's own opinion on the matter, that is, if Mises is to be claimed as a influence on her philosophy here. In any case, is it really too much just to ask what, exactly, the suggested influence could have been? And are we to include the demonstrably impossible just because someone claims it to be so? Oolyons (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a forum for debating if/how Rand's ideas changed over the years. Please take such matters to a discussion board, Facebook or whatever. Multiple reliable sources explicitly describe Mises as an influence on Rand. You can reply to yourself a dozen times with more arguments about how they differ, but none of that changes what the sources say. Find reliable sources that explicitly say he had no influence on her, and we can talk about that. --RL0919 (talk) 21:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- For example, the most basic idea in Rand's mature political thought is that of individual rights. Mises did not adhere to any variety of natural or normative rights theory whatever. Rand's hero in her 1943 novel (The Fountainhead) advocates rights based on Rand's fundamental approach, and it is pretty much the same as her later view. But I don't think there's evidence that she had read any Mises at that point. Oolyons (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You assert that Rand did not hold all of her later philosophical ideas "back when was influencing her". However, her margin notes in Human Action, for example, appear to have been written upon her first reading of the book, containing exclamation marks ("!") and items like, e.g., "Good God!", along with her many substantive comments. These same notes show her strong disagreements along the very same lines as her later thought would suggest. Mayhew, Robert, ed., Ayn Rand's Marginalia, 1995, New Milford, CT: Second Renaissance Books, pp. 104-144. What we need is evidence of some idea, ANY idea, he could have provided her, i.e., some substance to the claim of influence. Oolyons (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, in fact, her ideas changed very little. For this see, "Woman for all Seasons", . The reply from Prof. Burns (who is cited above), author of Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, is here: . Even in her reply, Prof. Burns notes that, "In comparison to the figures , who made some of the wildest swings in ideology imaginable, Rand was a paragon of consistency. It is to her credit that she saw Communism for what it was right from the start – though she had 'inside information' that most American intellectuals lacked..." Nor does Burns dispute the fact that Rand's basic political orientation itself dated from her childhood admiration of Alexander Kerensky, and teenaged admiration of America. And nor is there any evidence that Rand ~ ever ~ shared any of Mises' epistemological approach, his utilitarianism in ethics, or any other aspect of his basic, philosophical ideas. What we require here is some idea later found in Objectivism that he actually provided to Rand. There is nothing to indicate that there were any. Oolyons (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You also appear to be implying that we can't list an influence to Rand unless she said explicitly in an interview that she regards Mises as an influence on her philosophical views. That's not how this site works. We only care about reliable sources as per the site's standards. Otherwise, we would not list Rand as a "libertarian" if she said she wasn't one, regardless of the definition of the term. You could just as easily claim that Rand shouldn't be listed as female if she said she wasn't female. Byelf2007 (talk) 25 January 2011
- No, Bye, getting nasty and personal with me won't help you. Rand regarded some things in Aristotle as being much more important, more essential than other things. She was well aware of Immovable Movers and Natural Slavery and many other differences. Yet, as makes sense to Aristotle scholars like Prof. Allan Gotthelf and me, she cited him as her ONLY philosophical source. Other scholars agree with her self-assessment here, as well, such as Leonard Peikoff (see, e.g., his 1995 television interview Ideas in Action, WJM Productions, where he agrees with Rand's self-description here.). Now, I actually answered you (go back and read carefully) by specifying the fundamental areas within what Rand regarded as her basic philosophy and showed that they have almost zero overlap with the comparable ideas of Mises, e.g., utilitarianism (which she vehemently argued against), subjective values, etc. I was demanding that the actual influence which is claimed be specified rather than merely asserted as the cited sources do, if you go and actually read them. Now, I am also aware of the recent efforts made by some in The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies to attempt to equate Austrian economics and Rand's ethics. This must, however, be regarded as a minority position and a controversial one, as the authors there imply repeatedly themselves. Austrians are normally regarded, for example, as being "value free" in their methodology. So, even to make ~ their ~ argument sources other than Mises MUST be cited. You will find that Mises' teacher, Carl Menger is the Austrian cited as showing the most affinity to Rand thought -- not Mises. And the link is Aristotle. In those articles, it emerges that Menger provides a crucial connection that (MAYBE, it is stressed) can bridge the two worlds, which are normally considered light years apart. But it is no where argued that Rand was ever influenced by Menger. Note, too, that it was Rand who first introduced one of Mises' leading American students, Murray Rothbard to the whole field of Aristotle's epistemology and the whole field of natural rights, according to Prof. Burns's new book on Rand, which all apparently came as a revelation to that leading student of Mises. Somehow it was all new to him even after studying Mises. To him, knowing both thinkers at the time, they were worlds apart. George Reisman's reports are much the same.
- Sure, Mises admired Atlas Shrugged. He even wrote Rand to tell her that it was "more than a novel," it was a "cogent analysis" of the evils "plaguing" our society, etc. But he no where claims an influence or even connection. Yes, Rand admired his economics, as the reviews of his work in the journals she edited show. And she overtly denies such an influence.
- No, I am not saying that we require any such admission as you describe from Rand in order to call something an influence. I am saying that we have a positive, outright assertion to contrary from Rand herself that there was no such influence at all, and I have cited support from other sources, like Gotthelf and Peikoff, who agree with her assessment. This makes what those others say controversial, as it directly contradicts Rand and those other scholars. This site 'works", I trust, by including all of this, as well, if a claim to the contrary is to be made. It should not suppress these other sources, like Rand herself(!), should it? What it can do, I am suggesting, is avoid the whole controversy by not claiming Mises to have been an influence. See, the idea is highly controversial. But if it is insisted that this be included, then I don't see how we avoid Rand's own directly contrary opinion and her supporters views, as well. Get it?Oolyons (talk) 03:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC).
- Oolyons, what thing from Rand herself? The margin notes? All you're talking about is her writing about how much she disagreed with Mises on various matters. Granted. Again, so what? Now you appear to be saying "But she said Aristotle was the only one who influenced her/really influenced her." 1) She's also said Aquinas was an influence to her. 2) What do you suppose she would write in the margins of Aristotle's works? 3) This stuff really doesn't matter, as we're ONLY concerned with what reliable sources have to say about how whether or not she was influenced by him (and her margin notes/position on utilitarianism does not preclude her from being influenced by him. Let's keep in mind that around the time she was getting to know him, Objectivism was still years away from being created. Rand voted for FDR in 1936, she hadn't rejected all of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche when writing the Fountainhead, that she would eventually reject when she was writing the Fountainhead, whether or not Roark from Fountainhead's behavior in Fountainhead is consistent with Objectivism is highly controversial (as it appears to endorse vigilantism), whether or not she was an Objectivist toward the tail end of writing Atlas Shrugged is difficult if not impossible to determine, etc. We have reliable sources that say Mises was an influence to her philosophical views. Now, if you want to cite (not just refer to) reliable sources that explicitly say she she wasn't, then that would make the matter murky enough to convince me that we should discontinue listing him (I wanted him out earlier). Byelf2007 (talk) 26 January 2011
- No, Bye. Rand is a reliable source. She denied that there was any such influence on her philosophy. Full stop. We must not distort matters by merely claiming Mises as an influence without discussing the controversy. Add to that: Rand's notes show her differing with Mises, just as one might expect -- even as she apparently reads him for the first time. Her notes on Aristotle would have been very different, I suspect. Add to that: no one can point to anything that Mises actually contributed to her philosophy, while his ideas contradict hers in numerous ways. Indeed, Aquinas makes a good contrast. We can point to the specifics, and those specifics are consistent with her philosophy. And what she liked about him was precisely his own use of Aristotle ("the Philosopher"), while Mises is not generally categorized as falling within Aristotle's school of thought. And, btw, you are poorly informed. Rand voted for FDR in ~ 1932 ~ because he opposed Prohibition, and before he had been President. (But by July of 1936, according to J. Burns, Rand was describing her "hatred" for the New Deal to friends, well before she had met most of her later "conservative" friends, such as Paterson, Hazlitt and others. Goddess of the Market, p.37-38.) And Rand had thoroughly rejected Nietzsche's entire approach to metaphysics and epistemology, his "perspectivism," in favor of Aristotelian logic when she was still in her 20s, and in her very first philosophical notes of any kind. In those notes, she also rejected any need for a "history" or "genealogy" of ethics, believing, even then, that only a logical "system" of ethics was necessary, in sharp contrast to Nietzsche. She was also arguing against his determinism in favor of volition. She was also advocating a system of rights (a bizarre idea for any "Nietzschean") long before The Fountainhead, as her correspondence and notes show. Formulations of "A is A" are even present in the first edition of We the Living(!) For all of this, see, and In short, all of her fundamental differences with Nietzsche were there before she ever wrote a word of The Fountainhead. Nor is there any evidence that Rand was uncomfortable with any of Roark's behavior later in her career. Her 1968 "Introduction" to the 25th anniversary edition would have been the place to state any qualifications (like the other qualifications she discussed there), but there are none. She actually ADDS Nietzsche back into the book there(!) In any case, none of this even remotely suggests any influence from Mises, that's for sure, an influence she denied. Oolyons (talk) 17:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- It can be said that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' economics, but I think that it just cannot -- uncontroversially -- be claimed that he was an influence on her philosophy. We can avoid all of this by simply avoiding calling him one. Oolyons (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Bye, even according to Heller, Ayn Rand and the World She Made (read the first several pages of chapter 2), Rand opposed both communism and a constitutional monarchy in favor of a liberal republic as early as 1917. All sources agree that she had a teenaged preference for Kerensky over all of the other practical options. Her correspondence throughout the 1930s shows a similar pro-U.S. Constitution orientation. See, . Oolyons (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oolyons, what's this source where Rand says this? Byelf2007 (talk) 31 January 2011
- The most famous instance of this claim by Rand can be found in "About the Author," in Atlas Shrugged (I've already cited it, above), the whole of which is a quotation from Rand, and she wrote there that the "only philosophical debt" she could "acknowledge" was to Aristotle. This is not an isolated instance, and the point can be found discussed by several sources, e.g. in J. Burns, Goddess of the Market, p. 2. Oolyons (talk) 19:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- And Rand's own account of her philosophical influences and development is closely followed by scholars such as Allan Gotthelf, "Life and Intellectual Development," chapters 1 and 2, On Ayn Rand, Wadsworth Philosophers Series, 2000, pp. 12-27, with no mention of Mises whatever. And J. Burns replies to another source () that I also provided earlier and which closely follows Rand's own account, here . Oolyons (talk) 21:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- How late after the publishing of Atlas Shrugged did she continue to say he was her only philosophical influence? Is there a source where she says this close to her death? You've also only listed a couple blog posts as additional evidence. On what grounds are they saying Aristotle was her only philosophical influence? Byelf2007 (talk) 1 February 2012
- She continued in this position all her life, Bye, up to the last televised interviews she did in the years before her death. And the scholarship is clear: Atlas Shrugged in 1957 represents her "mature view," according to all of our sources. There is no ~ argument ~ that her position (on anything) appreciably changed after this, and none is argued by any secondary source. The argument about her development -- and as I have shown, it is a highly controversial argument -- concerns her intellectual development in the pre-Atlas years, whether its from Burns or Heller or anyone else. The concept of a Misesian influence on Rand's philosophy is controversial and speculative, Bye, as your own inquiries show. They are also without any real substance. The "grounds" for saying that Aristotle was her only basic influence are all of the specifics of her philosophy, and Rand's account of their development from Aristotle. Oolyons (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- How late after the publishing of Atlas Shrugged did she continue to say he was her only philosophical influence? Is there a source where she says this close to her death? You've also only listed a couple blog posts as additional evidence. On what grounds are they saying Aristotle was her only philosophical influence? Byelf2007 (talk) 1 February 2012
- And Rand's own account of her philosophical influences and development is closely followed by scholars such as Allan Gotthelf, "Life and Intellectual Development," chapters 1 and 2, On Ayn Rand, Wadsworth Philosophers Series, 2000, pp. 12-27, with no mention of Mises whatever. And J. Burns replies to another source () that I also provided earlier and which closely follows Rand's own account, here . Oolyons (talk) 21:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- The most famous instance of this claim by Rand can be found in "About the Author," in Atlas Shrugged (I've already cited it, above), the whole of which is a quotation from Rand, and she wrote there that the "only philosophical debt" she could "acknowledge" was to Aristotle. This is not an isolated instance, and the point can be found discussed by several sources, e.g. in J. Burns, Goddess of the Market, p. 2. Oolyons (talk) 19:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oolyons, what's this source where Rand says this? Byelf2007 (talk) 31 January 2011
- Bye, even according to Heller, Ayn Rand and the World She Made (read the first several pages of chapter 2), Rand opposed both communism and a constitutional monarchy in favor of a liberal republic as early as 1917. All sources agree that she had a teenaged preference for Kerensky over all of the other practical options. Her correspondence throughout the 1930s shows a similar pro-U.S. Constitution orientation. See, . Oolyons (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- It can be said that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' economics, but I think that it just cannot -- uncontroversially -- be claimed that he was an influence on her philosophy. We can avoid all of this by simply avoiding calling him one. Oolyons (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, Bye. Rand is a reliable source. She denied that there was any such influence on her philosophy. Full stop. We must not distort matters by merely claiming Mises as an influence without discussing the controversy. Add to that: Rand's notes show her differing with Mises, just as one might expect -- even as she apparently reads him for the first time. Her notes on Aristotle would have been very different, I suspect. Add to that: no one can point to anything that Mises actually contributed to her philosophy, while his ideas contradict hers in numerous ways. Indeed, Aquinas makes a good contrast. We can point to the specifics, and those specifics are consistent with her philosophy. And what she liked about him was precisely his own use of Aristotle ("the Philosopher"), while Mises is not generally categorized as falling within Aristotle's school of thought. And, btw, you are poorly informed. Rand voted for FDR in ~ 1932 ~ because he opposed Prohibition, and before he had been President. (But by July of 1936, according to J. Burns, Rand was describing her "hatred" for the New Deal to friends, well before she had met most of her later "conservative" friends, such as Paterson, Hazlitt and others. Goddess of the Market, p.37-38.) And Rand had thoroughly rejected Nietzsche's entire approach to metaphysics and epistemology, his "perspectivism," in favor of Aristotelian logic when she was still in her 20s, and in her very first philosophical notes of any kind. In those notes, she also rejected any need for a "history" or "genealogy" of ethics, believing, even then, that only a logical "system" of ethics was necessary, in sharp contrast to Nietzsche. She was also arguing against his determinism in favor of volition. She was also advocating a system of rights (a bizarre idea for any "Nietzschean") long before The Fountainhead, as her correspondence and notes show. Formulations of "A is A" are even present in the first edition of We the Living(!) For all of this, see, and In short, all of her fundamental differences with Nietzsche were there before she ever wrote a word of The Fountainhead. Nor is there any evidence that Rand was uncomfortable with any of Roark's behavior later in her career. Her 1968 "Introduction" to the 25th anniversary edition would have been the place to state any qualifications (like the other qualifications she discussed there), but there are none. She actually ADDS Nietzsche back into the book there(!) In any case, none of this even remotely suggests any influence from Mises, that's for sure, an influence she denied. Oolyons (talk) 17:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oolyons, what thing from Rand herself? The margin notes? All you're talking about is her writing about how much she disagreed with Mises on various matters. Granted. Again, so what? Now you appear to be saying "But she said Aristotle was the only one who influenced her/really influenced her." 1) She's also said Aquinas was an influence to her. 2) What do you suppose she would write in the margins of Aristotle's works? 3) This stuff really doesn't matter, as we're ONLY concerned with what reliable sources have to say about how whether or not she was influenced by him (and her margin notes/position on utilitarianism does not preclude her from being influenced by him. Let's keep in mind that around the time she was getting to know him, Objectivism was still years away from being created. Rand voted for FDR in 1936, she hadn't rejected all of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche when writing the Fountainhead, that she would eventually reject when she was writing the Fountainhead, whether or not Roark from Fountainhead's behavior in Fountainhead is consistent with Objectivism is highly controversial (as it appears to endorse vigilantism), whether or not she was an Objectivist toward the tail end of writing Atlas Shrugged is difficult if not impossible to determine, etc. We have reliable sources that say Mises was an influence to her philosophical views. Now, if you want to cite (not just refer to) reliable sources that explicitly say she she wasn't, then that would make the matter murky enough to convince me that we should discontinue listing him (I wanted him out earlier). Byelf2007 (talk) 26 January 2011
- No, I am not saying that we require any such admission as you describe from Rand in order to call something an influence. I am saying that we have a positive, outright assertion to contrary from Rand herself that there was no such influence at all, and I have cited support from other sources, like Gotthelf and Peikoff, who agree with her assessment. This makes what those others say controversial, as it directly contradicts Rand and those other scholars. This site 'works", I trust, by including all of this, as well, if a claim to the contrary is to be made. It should not suppress these other sources, like Rand herself(!), should it? What it can do, I am suggesting, is avoid the whole controversy by not claiming Mises to have been an influence. See, the idea is highly controversial. But if it is insisted that this be included, then I don't see how we avoid Rand's own directly contrary opinion and her supporters views, as well. Get it?Oolyons (talk) 03:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC).
Were you the source of this from the above bullet point, Bye? "'A more important intellectual influence for Rand was Hayek's mentor, Ludwig von Mises ....' (Goddess of the Market, p. 77." In the hardcover, there is no such quotation whatever on page 77, and Burns' first mention of Mises occurs on page 106, and it reads, in contrast to your quotation, "Rand looked more favorably on Mises, Hayek's mentor, whose works she read during this time." (emphasis added) This is entirely different than alleging an "influence" on her ideas, and the reference above appears to be a plain misquote, unless there is some other "Hayek's mentor" phrase in the book that I've missed. In fact, Burns appears to recognize Rand's vast differences with Mises -- from the start -- in the areas of philosophy proper, i.e., metaphysics, epistemology and ethics (p. 141-142). And Burns says only that Mises' analysis "matched" Rand's understanding, that his work suggested an "insightful" parallel to her (already existing) ethics, that Mises "provided economic support for..." Rand's political position (all on page 142), NOT that he was in any way its source. In fact, Burns reports that Rand's own students were "puzzled" that Rand even "recommend his books" given their sharp differences, as evidenced in those very margin notes (p. 141). And Burns locates in time the possible period of Mises' alleged influence. Burns has been badly misquoted and misconstrued here, it seems. Oolyons (talk) 23:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- I provided the quote, which is legit and can be confirmed with a Google Books search. I will also point out something I mentioned earlier in the thread: the infobox listing is for "Influences". It doesn't say "Influences on her mature philosophy". And Burns very explicitly says that he was an "important intellectual influence". A person can be influenced by someone and still have disagreements with them, so all the wrangling over what disagreements she had with him and when her ideas did or did not stop changing is entirely beside the point. We have multiple sources that explicitly call him an influence. Against this we have so far seen zero sources that explicitly deny he was an influence. Instead, inferences are being made from silences, accompanied by an unjustified narrow focus on someone having to be a direct source for her philosophy, as if she were nothing but a philosopher. Ironically this line of argument is similar to the old "Rand is not a philosopher" arguments, which also relied on arguments from silence. In that dispute the matter was settled in favor of what the explicit statements in sources said, rather than for the interpretation of silences. This dispute should be settled in the same fashion. --RL0919 (talk) 23:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I found that same quote doing a Google Search, too, but the text provided is NOT the same as the text from Burns' book, which I have accurately quoted. Do you have a hard copy of the real book? Compare the book, the hardcover, if you will, from the Table of Contents (utterly different CHAPTER TITLES), forward. Compare the text. It is different. Burns has endnotes, this text has real "footnotes" on the bottom of the page, for example. Try, if you will, to find the quote in question in a hard copy of the actual book. Page 77 discusses Paterson, but not Mises at all. So, no, Burns does not say that, from what I can tell. Not from the hard copy of the book I am holding in my hands right now. I'm not sure what it is they have put under that title, but the text is not Burns'. (Whoever did say that did not say how much "more" up from zero he was going, either.) Moreover, you misconstrue my position altogether, in any case. And, as I have indicated, this can easily be solved by saying that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' work, just not calling him an "influence." Oolyons (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have other references in the Ayn Rand article, or others, been based on this text as alleged citations of Burns? Oolyons (talk) 02:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- A little bit of further browsing solves the mystery: The text in question is Burns' PhD dissertation, which bears the same name as the book she later based on it, but does not have identical text. And yes, I have the hardcover book, although I don't carry it around with me everywhere I travel, hence the use of Google Books for convenience. To my knowledge all citations are against the hardcover text, but you are welcome to review each and every citation in the article if you wish, and update them to reference the dissertation if needed. That would have more value than trying to argue from silences. --RL0919 (talk) 05:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I find it curious, then, that she completely retreated from her assertion of influence when it came time to publish. Now, in fact, its REMOVAL from her text is powerful evidence of the opposite. She went from calling him an "influence" in the earlier version to calling him merely someone Rand "looked on more favorably" than Hayek. That's a serious change in Burns's view. And, of course, you don't carry such a copy around, but, of course, I was arguing from Rand's actual denial of Mises as a philosophical influence, not any silence, and against a notion that is both baseless and wrong, namely a philosophical influence. I accept your distinction, but it must be made in the text if we are to avoid the issues raised here. Rand was a novelist and philosopher, but Mises was neither an influence on her philosophy -- something Rand overtly denied and for which you can cite no clear source whatever -- nor her literature (as Hugo and Dosteovsky, etc.). The secondary sources themselves (like Burns, in any version) stress the vast differences between the two thinkers, as well. At best, he was an "influence," as Burns writes, in that Mises' analysis "matched" her own understanding and that he "provided support" for Rand's political position with his economics. We must also note IF we are to suggest him as an influence, that they had HUGE differences in all the areas that Rand felt important, philosophically. Thus, if he is to be listed as any kind of influence, fairness to Rand's ideas dictates that all of these clear distinctions be made or we will be distorting the secondary sources you cite which claim this (or even ones that formerly claimed it.). Given the context, vagueness here is distortion. And we must avoid implying something that Rand overtly, and quite hotly (if we read her notes on Mises) denied. Merely calling him an influence without qualification is a lie. Oolyons (talk) 14:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't the reference in the text enough -- and better? Can't we remove him from the list of major influences, simply given the nebulous quality of the argued-for influence, since he is mentioned in the text in greater detail? Oolyons (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is, you are the only one demanding this removal, and despite rivers of text you have yet to produce a reliable source that denies he was an influence on her, in contrast to the sources that say he was. Rand issued no such denial, and as has already been pointed out, "influence" does not imply complete agreement, so there is no issue of fairness or distortion or lies. You can post follow-ups to your own comments a thousand times, but that does not create more support for your position. --RL0919 (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that you have me at a disadvantage, RL. You seem to have access to information that I do not about the existing consensus on this specific topic. Since it has never been suggested that "influence" requires "complete agreement" (otherwise none of the others would qualify, either, for instance), I'm at a loss as to what the discussion and editorial standards really are around here. Your best source, for what they are, actually just disappeared, and it doesn't seem to matter. In any case, I will say no more. Oolyons (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is, you are the only one demanding this removal, and despite rivers of text you have yet to produce a reliable source that denies he was an influence on her, in contrast to the sources that say he was. Rand issued no such denial, and as has already been pointed out, "influence" does not imply complete agreement, so there is no issue of fairness or distortion or lies. You can post follow-ups to your own comments a thousand times, but that does not create more support for your position. --RL0919 (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't the reference in the text enough -- and better? Can't we remove him from the list of major influences, simply given the nebulous quality of the argued-for influence, since he is mentioned in the text in greater detail? Oolyons (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- I find it curious, then, that she completely retreated from her assertion of influence when it came time to publish. Now, in fact, its REMOVAL from her text is powerful evidence of the opposite. She went from calling him an "influence" in the earlier version to calling him merely someone Rand "looked on more favorably" than Hayek. That's a serious change in Burns's view. And, of course, you don't carry such a copy around, but, of course, I was arguing from Rand's actual denial of Mises as a philosophical influence, not any silence, and against a notion that is both baseless and wrong, namely a philosophical influence. I accept your distinction, but it must be made in the text if we are to avoid the issues raised here. Rand was a novelist and philosopher, but Mises was neither an influence on her philosophy -- something Rand overtly denied and for which you can cite no clear source whatever -- nor her literature (as Hugo and Dosteovsky, etc.). The secondary sources themselves (like Burns, in any version) stress the vast differences between the two thinkers, as well. At best, he was an "influence," as Burns writes, in that Mises' analysis "matched" her own understanding and that he "provided support" for Rand's political position with his economics. We must also note IF we are to suggest him as an influence, that they had HUGE differences in all the areas that Rand felt important, philosophically. Thus, if he is to be listed as any kind of influence, fairness to Rand's ideas dictates that all of these clear distinctions be made or we will be distorting the secondary sources you cite which claim this (or even ones that formerly claimed it.). Given the context, vagueness here is distortion. And we must avoid implying something that Rand overtly, and quite hotly (if we read her notes on Mises) denied. Merely calling him an influence without qualification is a lie. Oolyons (talk) 14:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- A little bit of further browsing solves the mystery: The text in question is Burns' PhD dissertation, which bears the same name as the book she later based on it, but does not have identical text. And yes, I have the hardcover book, although I don't carry it around with me everywhere I travel, hence the use of Google Books for convenience. To my knowledge all citations are against the hardcover text, but you are welcome to review each and every citation in the article if you wish, and update them to reference the dissertation if needed. That would have more value than trying to argue from silences. --RL0919 (talk) 05:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have other references in the Ayn Rand article, or others, been based on this text as alleged citations of Burns? Oolyons (talk) 02:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I found that same quote doing a Google Search, too, but the text provided is NOT the same as the text from Burns' book, which I have accurately quoted. Do you have a hard copy of the real book? Compare the book, the hardcover, if you will, from the Table of Contents (utterly different CHAPTER TITLES), forward. Compare the text. It is different. Burns has endnotes, this text has real "footnotes" on the bottom of the page, for example. Try, if you will, to find the quote in question in a hard copy of the actual book. Page 77 discusses Paterson, but not Mises at all. So, no, Burns does not say that, from what I can tell. Not from the hard copy of the book I am holding in my hands right now. I'm not sure what it is they have put under that title, but the text is not Burns'. (Whoever did say that did not say how much "more" up from zero he was going, either.) Moreover, you misconstrue my position altogether, in any case. And, as I have indicated, this can easily be solved by saying that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' work, just not calling him an "influence." Oolyons (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Ayn Rand's view of
In regard to Ayn Rand's views on Kant, I have deleted the following aside comment: "...although Objectivist philosophers George Walsh and Fred Seddon have argued that she misinterpreted Kant and exaggerated their differences." Since this is irrelevant to Ayn Rand's own view of Kant, it should not be included. I will also note, as an addendum, that the two men referenced are not widely recognized as "Objectivists." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew3024 (talk • contribs) 07:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- I certainly agree with not calling those men "Objectivist philosophers," since (as Andrew3024 pointed out) they are not generally regarded as such by others who definitely are Objectivists. As to Rand's views on Kant, critics who are of a "mainstream" persuasion tend to be cited by some editors, in Misplaced Pages articles that mention her views, as claiming that Rand misunderstood, misinterpreted, and/or distorted Kant's actual views. From my own knowledge I think she understood what Kant was saying better than most of those critics. And in general, some editors seem to think that it is important for the public to be warned off of Rand's ideas, so don't be surprised if the deleted text gets reinstated. — DAGwyn (talk) 10:10, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- Including the views of Walsh and Seddon also merely invites (or requires) a discussion of the opinion of those who do think Rand understood Kant, and this would be an unnecessary and wasteful tangent. It is all irrelevant to Rand's own view of Kant. Oolyons (talk) 20:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is not the responsibility of a Misplaced Pages article to discourse on every back-and-forth detail of how a given author is criticized and defended, but we should summarize the significant views, including any significant criticisms. The inclusion of a criticism does not require inclusion of a response, unless there are secondary sources of equivalent significance making the counterargument. If there are reliable secondary sources defending Rand's view of Kant, then we could summarize that fact in brief terms to go alongside the criticism, without an extended discourse about either. The criticism is presented in less than 20 words. --RL0919 (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Right. But this is not, in my view, a "significant" criticism: both writers are still largely in agreement with most of Rand's own philosophical positions; "neo-Objectivists", we would have to say. And both writers, Seddon and (the late) Walsh, argue that Kant is arguing for a position similar to Rand's own. Wouldn't that be something important to mention, that is, if we are to include this at all? Not adding this would be a distortion of their "criticism", for what it is, don't you think? Their own work makes clear that each writer thinks extremely highly of Rand's thought generally. Oolyons (talk) 22:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
"Most Academics and Literary Critics"
The introductory material asserts that "reception for Rand's fiction from literary critics was largely negative, and most academics have ignored or rejected her philosophy." First, the cited source for this (Sciabarra's 'Russian Radical', page 1) does not say what is alleged here. The source says only that "academics have often dismissed" her philosophy, not that "most" do or have. The source says ~ nothing ~ about her reception from "literary critics" at all. We should stick to the source's actual assertions. Second, I have searched and been unable to find any survey of academics or literary critics about Rand's thought. In any case, none is actually cited here or contained within the cited material. I would add that the material I have found shows that the reception by contemporary critics of her work was mixed. Some extreme praise can be found in places like The New York Times Book Review (which called The Fountainhead "masterful" and Rand a writer of "great power") and from noteworthy book reviewers such as John Chamberlain (who praised Atlas Shrugged), along with high praise privately offered for specific works by the likes of H. L. Mencken (who recommended We the Living as "a really excellent piece of work"), Frank Lloyd Wright (who reported being "astonish" by Rand's "grasp" of "the ins and outs" of the profession of architecture, and who called The Fountainhead's thesis "the great one"), and Ludwig von Mises (who praised Atlas Shrugged as "a cogent analysis of the evils that plague our society".) (Berliner, Michael, ed., Letters of Ayn Rand, New York: Dutton, p. 10, 112, and, "Letter" to Rand, dated Jan. 23, 1958, quoted in Hülsmann, Jorg Guido, Mises: The Last Knight of Liberalism, 2007, Ludwig von Mises Institute, p. 996.) Numerically, the reviews seem mixed, as well. Her Broadway hit, Night of January 16th was praised by Walter Winchell, among others. Rand is reported to have been disappointed with most of the positive reviews of her work, but, nevertheless, there were a number of them. Since there are also a growing number of academics who do admire Rand, and even a growing number who identify as "Objectivists," as well as an increase in serious publications about Rand (a fact actually noted by the cited source), this should be mentioned, as well. If a credible source can be found for the original claims, that is another matter. But until then, these assertions should be removed. Oolyons (talk) 23:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- The cited source (C. M. Sciabarra, 'Ayn Rand: the Russian Radical', 1995) does, however, say that Rand's work "inspired passionate responses," and (on page 2) notes the "growth in Rand scholarship and influence..." These can be mentioned in a neutral way. Oolyons (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since just a partial list of ~ noteworthy ~ scholars and academics who have been deeply and significantly influenced by Rand includes: Allan Gotthelf, Edwin A. Locke, Harry Binswanger, Tara Smith, George Reisman, George H. Smith, David Kelley, Edith Efron, Robert Hessen, Martin Anderson, Douglas Den Uyl, Douglas Rasmussen, Tibor Machan, Andrew Bernstein and James G. Lennox, the existence of such scholars cannot be ignored. Oolyons (talk) 00:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- The cited source for this does not indicate the number of academics or scholars, or the group's comparative size, e.g., "small," or otherwise. The source does mention its noteworthy "growth." Why was this changed to "notable"? While it is true, it is not from the source.Oolyons (talk) 22:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since just a partial list of ~ noteworthy ~ scholars and academics who have been deeply and significantly influenced by Rand includes: Allan Gotthelf, Edwin A. Locke, Harry Binswanger, Tara Smith, George Reisman, George H. Smith, David Kelley, Edith Efron, Robert Hessen, Martin Anderson, Douglas Den Uyl, Douglas Rasmussen, Tibor Machan, Andrew Bernstein and James G. Lennox, the existence of such scholars cannot be ignored. Oolyons (talk) 00:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The problem as I see it, is that all it takes to be counted as a "scholar" is direct association with Ayn Rand. If you click on these links, you quickly find that almost every single one of them were either members of Ayn Rand's circle or part of the Objectivist movement.
You'll also find that each and every one of the article's you linked to have been beefed up and heavily inflated by none other than fellow Ayn Rand disciples to give the impression that her influence is stronger than it actually is.
--69.125.144.46 (talk) 20:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- No, you're wrong. For example, Tibor Machan was no friend or student of Rand, however much his ideas are influenced by her. He associated with those hostile to Rand during her lifetime and was never part of her group. And he is among the most widely published philosophers of our time. Douglas Rasmussen and Douglas Den Uyl never knew Rand, nor were they ever part of her circle, and they, too, associated only with her enemies while Rand was alive. Yet, both of these have also been ~ profoundly ~ influenced by Rand. None of those three were ever part of the "movement," either, anymore than George H. Smith was ever part of Rand's circle or "movement." Someone like Tara Smith (no relation to the last) never knew Rand but she did study from Rand's students. And her recent work defending Rand has been published by no less than Cambridge University Press. So, no, the listed scholars are all over the map on that question. There are tenured and multiple emeritus professors listed. Someone like Allan Gotthelf is, in fact, widely recognized as one of the world's foremost authorities on Aristotle. Period. Edwin A. Locke, as well, is widely considered a leader and pioneer in his field. Martin Anderson was a chief adviser to President Ronald Reagan. So, again, no, these are serious writers with biographies that need no "beefing up."Oolyons (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
“Ayn Rand was a writer of no value whatsoever, whether aesthetic or intellectual. The Tea Party deserves her, but the rest of us do not. It is not less than obscene that any educational institution that relies even in part on public funds should ask students to consider her work. We are threatened these days by vicious mindlessness and this is one of its manifestations.” -Harold Bloom, Sterling Professor of the Humanities and English at Yale University, quoted here: http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/27/ayn-rand-the-tea-partys-miscast-matriarch MBVECO (talk) 19:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)MBVECO
- One must doubt whether Bloom has the first clue about the substance of Rand's philosophy, as he's shown no evidence of it to date. He is one man, and a controversial figure himself. I have cited a number of scholars who are leaders in their fields -- and important works -- that think just the reverse. That these exist is what counts -- Rand must be treated seriously. Bertrand Russell dismissed Nietzsche as being utterly worthless and unserious, too, and I suspect Nietzsche will be remembered even longer than Bertie. And I've heard much the same about Bloom himself from some parties.Oolyons (talk) 00:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The fact is, the negative major reviews of Rand's novels overwhelmed the relatively few supportive minor ones. (I looked them up decades ago.) And the academic community for several decades in fact did almost entirely disparage Objectivism, to the point of actively discouraging students from studying it and penalizing those who did. You will find practically no mention of Rand in any professional journal during that long stretch of time. Perhaps we need a better source to cite for these aspects. It is important to get this right, because the professional response to her work had a significant impact on Rand's outlook and subsequent procedures; some have called her denouncements of contemporary writing and professional philosophy "vitriolic," and it contributed to the closed nature of her circle of admirers, maybe even to the periodic fallings-out and "purges." — DAGwyn (talk) 05:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Ethical and Rational Egoist
The articles on both rational egoism and ethical egoism should be linked, as both have discussions of her ideas, and she was both. Oolyons (talk) 00:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Academic rejection
Shouldn't the introduction include some sort of information on how her works have been largely discredited, dismissed, and rejected by just about every University's philosophy department on planet earth? While I realize we cannot come right out and say it, it should be made more clear that Ayn Rand was a pseudo-philosopher, not a real one. She essentially asked academics of her time to abandon hundreds of years of philosophical progress in favor of her ideas. More specifically, she remains the only modern day thinker who failed to move beyond the rationalist/empiricist roadblock that Immanuel Kant solved in the late 1700's.
This should be in the main paragraph. I realize wikipedia has a STRONG libertarian bias, but you guys shouldn't be making it that easy to prove that claim to be undeniably true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.144.46 (talk) 19:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, although your estimate of her philosophy is irrelevant to this matter. byelf2007 (talk) 20 February 2012
- Since there are "two sides to every coin," the above statement can be taken as a negative judgment on academic philosophy, rather than on Rand. Men like Arthur Schopenhauer, Karl Jaspers, Walter Kaufmann, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Søren Kierkegaard, Jean-Paul Sartre and many other creative thinkers and writers had a very low opinion about academic philosophy.Lestrade (talk) 02:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
- but they are all taught in major universities and including in the various academic dictionaries and encyclopaedias of philosophy. Rand is not, in fact she only appears to be taught where Randian foundations fund the position. ----Snowded 04:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
What matters is their evaluation of academic philosophy. If academic philosophy is not thought to be a worthy source of judgment regarding ideas, then its opinion about Rand is not so important. From a certain viewpoint, many of the thousands of professors of philosophy may, themselves, be regarded as pseudo-philosophers.Lestrade (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
- However, as a matter of fact, Rand is taught at major universities and by non-Objectivsts. I was ~ required ~ to read samples of her work in both university ethics and political theory classes by hostile professors who took her seriously. Also, Rand has not been "discredited" or refuted in any way -- PhDs and professors have observed that Rand's critics seem to invariably and crudely misstate her positions whenever they attempt to take her on. Whether it's Whittaker Chambers in the 1950s, Robert Nozick in the 1970s, or Christopher Hitchens in the 2000s, Rand's critics fail to correctly state her ideas in the first instance, according to Objectivists. And they cite specifics. Some fairly simple and basic ones, too. This is also the thrust of the Objectivist critique of the recent biographies by Burns and Heller. They misrepresent her thought. Also, I am unaware of any actual survey of academics about Rand. Just guess work. In any case, the fact that most philosophers reject the ideas of, say, Leibnitz ("best of all possible worlds"), does not mean that he isn't to be treated seriously. Nor is there cause to cite such "rejection," even if such could be located, except from an overt hostility to Leibnitz. And, of course, Rand rejected and transcended empiricism and rationalism far more radically than Kant ever did. Even the critics who think Rand got Kant wrong, i.e., Seddon and Walsh, simply interpret Kant as saying pretty much what Rand said(!) Oolyons (talk) 19:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- At least two of the cited sources have been misrepresented. I will check on the rest as I have time. Rasmussen and Den Uyl (1984), page 36 is actually from an essay by Wallace Matson, and it only mentions Rand's own "separation from the mainstream," not the mainstream's separation from her, as it were. Also, Gottelf (2000) on page 1 says only that Rand "still gets little attention" from academics (more than a decade ago, and that decade has been significantly different), not that she has been rejected by them. This is very different, indeed. I'll keep checking, but those two citations must be removed. Oolyons (talk) 20:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- The sources cited for an "academic rejection" of Rand's thought do not actually mention such a rejection. I've indicated (above) that both Rasumussen/Den Uyl (1984) and Gotthelf (2000) say nothing like this, but neither does Gladstein (1999), who says the opposite, and, indeed, she indicates that "assessments" of Rand's work by other writers have "grown exponentially" since Rand's death (page 2). Gladstein does say that discussions of Rand's work are usually "highly charged" (also page 2), but it mentions no rejection. I've checked all but one of the cited sources. None of them so far says anything like what is being claimed about an "academic rejection." Until specific quotations from a good source are provided, this whole sentence must be removed -- both because there is no such source so far, but also because it is inappropriately non-neutral and speculative. For example, do any such surveys actually exist?Oolyons (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
You're referring to evaluations from relative newcomers. If you had been active in, and attentive to, academia during the 1960s, by which time Rand's major ideas had all been published (except for her theory of concepts), you'd have seen a different situation from the one that we might have today.
Much of the work of professional philosophers during that time rightly should have been, but seldom was, considered unworthy of the profession. Consequently, workers in other professions generally considered contemporary philosophy as foolish and irrelevant. (Ironically, this allowed bad ideas to gain more traction than they would have if they had been taken seriously.) Just as one might reasonably consider modern physics to have taken a wrong turn along the way, leading to absurdities like "dark matter" being accepted as mainstream, Rand considered that modern philosophy had taken a wrong turn, partly by over-reverence for authority (particularly Kant), leading to bad social consequences. Over time, she cited a considerable amount of evidence in support of that notion.
Remnants of the former mainstream academic attitude are still widespread today, including much of 69.125.144.46's original posting at the top of this section. Oolyons is correct in his observation that Rand's critics have exhibited a tendency to misstate her ideas. A possible explanation might be that they are so invested in their existing world-view that their emotional response to a significant challenge to that world-view is to devise too-facile reinforcements of their existing beliefs, instead of careful consideration of the ideas. — DAGwyn (talk) 06:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I feel strongly that Rand should be labelled as a pseudo-philosopher. She did not achieve a recognized status of mastery in the art of philosophy during her time, and in fact took much from Nietzsche and Aristotle, simply twisting the ideas as she saw fit. In any case, her "Objectivism" is more in line with an ideology than a philosophical system, and should be properly labelled. It is a bad equivocation to mix Rand's thoughts with true philosophy. So some changes to the article should be made. Pseudo-philosopher is one more fitting label, but "thinker" can also be used. In any case, Rand was certainly not a philosopher, and does not deserve to be credited as one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.24.167 (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- Your strong feelings are not relevant. Reliable sources are. This objection has been made a hundred times and has always been refuted with argumentation (not just assertions). There are many reliable sources that say Rand is a philosopher and created a philosophy. There are very few reliable sources that say Rand is not a philosopher and did not create a philosophy. If this is incorrect, you can actually make a case and not just make assertions. You also should not edit the article to correspond with your opinion on such an important matter as this without first explaining your case on talk. Byelf2007 (talk) 28 March 2012
- I am going to gently remind everyone that arguing about whether Rand is or is not a philosopher leads to *madness* and ARBCOM. This has been settled, and there are extensive sources backing up the claim that she is one. TallNapoleon (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
There are no credible sources that say Rand is a philosopher. A credible source is a master in the art of philosophy. The general consensus among actual philosophers is that she is not a true philosopher. The people who claim that Rand is a philosopher have no authority. It is like saying a motorcycle is a car because a great politician or lawyer says so, when the mechanic will correctly say that the motorcycle is a motorcycle, and a car is a car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.128.213 (talk) 20:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
- Terrible and unconvincing analogy. Besides, we already have this pretty well sourced. Whether you find these sources "credible" is irrelevant.--Atlan (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
- TallNapoleon is right to say that in this lies madness. However Armcom did not settle the content issue or the policy issue, it managed an issue over behaviour; namely edit warring, meat puppetry etc. etc. etc.. There are clearly some sources that say she is a philosopher, but there is no mention of her as such in a large body of material where, if she was, you would expect to find it. The only wikipedia policy which comes near on this is WP:WEIGHT but the work through the list of philosophical dictionaries and encyclopaedias where she is not even named is problematic. The argument that there are few sources saying she is not a philosopher is problematic. Scientists deny creationism because it has traction in the US, NLP has sources to show it is a pseudocience because people have taken it seriously. Rand on the other hand has simply been completely and utterly ignored outside her fan base, or those universities receiving grants from foundations associated with her name. I agree the analogy is unconvincing, but so is the statement that this is well sourced. ----Snowded 23:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
- In addition to the sources cited in the article currently, she's listed in multiple reference works on philosophy, such as The Dictionary of Modern American Philosophers (Thoemmes Continuum, 2005), American Philosophers, 1950-2000 (Gale, 2003), Women Philosophers: A Bio-Critical Source Book (Greenwood, 1989). Then there are other types of sources, such as the multiple recent biographies that call her a philosopher. Are there sources where she isn't mentioned or isn't called a philosopher? Definitely. But neglect is not denial, and denial is what is needed to counterbalance the existence of multiple positive sources. This has always been the problem for those who want preclude use of the term. Academic sources just aren't doing this. If you dive into middlebrow commercial sources, such as magazine articles, you can find an occasional explicit denial. But any such finds would be balanced against the hundreds of similar-quality sources that casually refer to Rand as a philosopher, including a number of highly critical works that preclude any argument that only "fans" are referencing her as such. --RL0919 (talk) 02:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I say its an issue for wikipedia policy, in this case I think neglect is de facto denial per my argument above. To ask a serious philosopher to write an article saying she isn't, when few if any take her as one is asking a lot. Given her claims one would expect biographies, but when I last checked none of the major international dictionaries or encyclopaedias of philosophy list her (I think there is one online US one which also has articles authored by champions - i.e. free format contribution rather than considered). Now they do list minor and controversial figures. I'd be interested to see the text of the Routledge reference by the way. I did check that along with others a few years ago and accept that it may have changed. So yes there are some references, but not many and not where you would expect them to be. The policy issue around this affects a lot of fringe issues and its a gap in policy. Under one interpretation she is simply because she is called that in some reliable sources. In another interpretation the fact that she isn't mentioned where she should be is also significant. While I think we may have to live with the former interpretation I am not prepared to simply let the statement by Atlan above stand without some rebuttal.----Snowded 09:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- Likewise the idea that she "does not appear where you would expect her to" (ie, in encyclopaedias of philosophy, or in encyclopaedias as "a philosopher") needs some rebuttal. Routelege is viewable on gBooks, but there's also Britannica, Stanford, Oregon State and the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (this is probably the one you mention above - I don't know much about it but it "seems legit" - ie, it claims to be peer reviewed and the editors are the heads of philosophy at UT and California State; has spawned the usual conga-line of left wing bloggers outraged that it considers Rand a "philosopher", but as discussed at great length above, that's generally to be expected). Presumably this won't end the madness, but it should get the statement pretty comprehensively past any objections on the basis of WP:V, WP:RS or WP:REDFLAG.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm dubious about the Internet Encyclopedia, as far as I can see they in effect take essays rather than taking an editorial approach and to some extend that is true of the Stnford one (look at the credits at the bottom). Routelege also seems multi-authored but I would accept that as one. I don't see her in Oxford or Cambridge published books, or in the various histories of political philosophy I have on my shelves. Any recognition of her is very very US centric and a minority even there. As I said above I think this is a policy issue and I remain disappointed that Arbcom did not take it up. The way things work any reference is enough. ----Snowded 09:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's worth noting that the issue of whether Rand is mentioned in works of reference on philosophy doesn't in itself settle the question of whether she is a philosopher or not. The Penguin Dictionary of Philosophy edited by Thomas Mautner has an entry on Rand, but it's short and very negative: "American writer of Russian origin. Her so-called philosophy of objectivism condemns altruism and extols selfishness and individual achievement." That could be read as a denial that Rand is a philosopher, although it's not 100% explicit about it. I personally think Rand is a philosopher, but if there are reliable sources that say otherwise, it should be fine to quote them. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- The 2005 Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (take note Snowded, Oxford!) has a similarly dismissive entry referring to her "extreme and simplistic views" (which they nonetheless call her "philosophy"). But again no explicit denial that she was a philosopher. I suspect such denials would be more forthcoming if academics could agree upon criteria for being a "philosopher" that would exclude Rand without also pushing out Arendt, Camus, Emerson, Nietzsche, and/or assorted ancients. --RL0919 (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just checked and she is not in my 1996 edition or in the more recent Oxford Companion to Philosophy (2005) while all of those you name appear without similar qualification. The entry in that later volume for Objectivism just contrasts it with Subjectivism and makes no mention. I 'd be interested to check the reasons for inclusion in the 2005 edition - was that edited by Simon B as before? Again however it shows the pattern, any serious acknowledgement is grudging at best and we need to make sure that is properly covered in the article. ----Snowded 02:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think you mistook my point, which was (for once) about the outside world, not Misplaced Pages. If someone writing in a peer-reviewed source were to explicitly say that Rand is not a philosopher, they would be challenged to present criteria for applying the title. Criteria that would exclude Rand (beyond purely subjective ones) would likely be controversial because they would exclude one or more others who are widely accepted as philosophers. So they don't go down that path. That's my suspicion, anyway. But coming back to Misplaced Pages, to say that sources are "grudging at best" when they call her a philosopher, we would need sources that say this, not the interpretations of WP editors. --RL0919 (talk) 18:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just checked and she is not in my 1996 edition or in the more recent Oxford Companion to Philosophy (2005) while all of those you name appear without similar qualification. The entry in that later volume for Objectivism just contrasts it with Subjectivism and makes no mention. I 'd be interested to check the reasons for inclusion in the 2005 edition - was that edited by Simon B as before? Again however it shows the pattern, any serious acknowledgement is grudging at best and we need to make sure that is properly covered in the article. ----Snowded 02:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- The 2005 Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (take note Snowded, Oxford!) has a similarly dismissive entry referring to her "extreme and simplistic views" (which they nonetheless call her "philosophy"). But again no explicit denial that she was a philosopher. I suspect such denials would be more forthcoming if academics could agree upon criteria for being a "philosopher" that would exclude Rand without also pushing out Arendt, Camus, Emerson, Nietzsche, and/or assorted ancients. --RL0919 (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's worth noting that the issue of whether Rand is mentioned in works of reference on philosophy doesn't in itself settle the question of whether she is a philosopher or not. The Penguin Dictionary of Philosophy edited by Thomas Mautner has an entry on Rand, but it's short and very negative: "American writer of Russian origin. Her so-called philosophy of objectivism condemns altruism and extols selfishness and individual achievement." That could be read as a denial that Rand is a philosopher, although it's not 100% explicit about it. I personally think Rand is a philosopher, but if there are reliable sources that say otherwise, it should be fine to quote them. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm dubious about the Internet Encyclopedia, as far as I can see they in effect take essays rather than taking an editorial approach and to some extend that is true of the Stnford one (look at the credits at the bottom). Routelege also seems multi-authored but I would accept that as one. I don't see her in Oxford or Cambridge published books, or in the various histories of political philosophy I have on my shelves. Any recognition of her is very very US centric and a minority even there. As I said above I think this is a policy issue and I remain disappointed that Arbcom did not take it up. The way things work any reference is enough. ----Snowded 09:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- Likewise the idea that she "does not appear where you would expect her to" (ie, in encyclopaedias of philosophy, or in encyclopaedias as "a philosopher") needs some rebuttal. Routelege is viewable on gBooks, but there's also Britannica, Stanford, Oregon State and the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (this is probably the one you mention above - I don't know much about it but it "seems legit" - ie, it claims to be peer reviewed and the editors are the heads of philosophy at UT and California State; has spawned the usual conga-line of left wing bloggers outraged that it considers Rand a "philosopher", but as discussed at great length above, that's generally to be expected). Presumably this won't end the madness, but it should get the statement pretty comprehensively past any objections on the basis of WP:V, WP:RS or WP:REDFLAG.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I say its an issue for wikipedia policy, in this case I think neglect is de facto denial per my argument above. To ask a serious philosopher to write an article saying she isn't, when few if any take her as one is asking a lot. Given her claims one would expect biographies, but when I last checked none of the major international dictionaries or encyclopaedias of philosophy list her (I think there is one online US one which also has articles authored by champions - i.e. free format contribution rather than considered). Now they do list minor and controversial figures. I'd be interested to see the text of the Routledge reference by the way. I did check that along with others a few years ago and accept that it may have changed. So yes there are some references, but not many and not where you would expect them to be. The policy issue around this affects a lot of fringe issues and its a gap in policy. Under one interpretation she is simply because she is called that in some reliable sources. In another interpretation the fact that she isn't mentioned where she should be is also significant. While I think we may have to live with the former interpretation I am not prepared to simply let the statement by Atlan above stand without some rebuttal.----Snowded 09:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- In addition to the sources cited in the article currently, she's listed in multiple reference works on philosophy, such as The Dictionary of Modern American Philosophers (Thoemmes Continuum, 2005), American Philosophers, 1950-2000 (Gale, 2003), Women Philosophers: A Bio-Critical Source Book (Greenwood, 1989). Then there are other types of sources, such as the multiple recent biographies that call her a philosopher. Are there sources where she isn't mentioned or isn't called a philosopher? Definitely. But neglect is not denial, and denial is what is needed to counterbalance the existence of multiple positive sources. This has always been the problem for those who want preclude use of the term. Academic sources just aren't doing this. If you dive into middlebrow commercial sources, such as magazine articles, you can find an occasional explicit denial. But any such finds would be balanced against the hundreds of similar-quality sources that casually refer to Rand as a philosopher, including a number of highly critical works that preclude any argument that only "fans" are referencing her as such. --RL0919 (talk) 02:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources which claim her to be a philosopher are in any way authoritative. People fail to see author bias in the very specific examples chosen. Also, various collections and databases may refer to her as a philosopher, but again, the general philosophic community does not accept her as one. The only people giving her the title of philosopher are the fans, those paid off by the followers of Rand, and the casual professors who hold no real authority in the world of philosophy. Give her all her other achievements, we don't care about those; but Ayn Rand certainly deserves no place in the world of philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.24.167 (talk) 01:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, in your opinion. On the other side we have close to a dozen RSs, which you dismiss as fan pieces. You may not like her philosophy; is it really a smart move to try to declare that it isn't one?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 02:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- As an aside I'm going to bet dollars to donuts that our anonymous interlocutor is our old friend Edward Nilges, aka banned user User:Spinoza1111. If you are Edward, please, leave us in peace. If you aren't, you have my sincerest apologies, though I do recommend registering for an account. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:11, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Not that I expect this to make much of a difference, as I am sure the people running this show are die-hard supporters of Rand, but after much digging, I was able to find specific examples of a renowned professor of philosophy denouncing Rand to a degree. The problem with finding even the minute scraps of denouncement is that Rand is not taken seriously by the greater philosophic community, so no philosopher has yet written anything specifically rejecting her. She is typically rejected by default among real philosophers. In any case, the bit of verifiable and real rejection comes from Louis Pojman, in his book "Ethics: discovering right and wrong, 6th edition" on pages 90-91. If any other philosopher chooses to write more about Rand, I shall bring up the new evidence. I am attempting even now to get more professional philosophers to write about their thoughts on this question. When her writing first came out, it was considered quite bad and was almost universally rejected, which should have been a good indicator that she was not a philosopher. More recently, people discovered her work and began labeling her as such, despite no such acceptance in the philosophic community. I believe her initial rejection should have been enough, but now it has gotten to the point where the pros should really get involved. If I can get some of the top philosophers out there to write about her, and if they choose to write favorably about her, then I will drop my opinion and accept her as a philosopher. Furthermore, if such approval happens, then this debate will finally be truly over, and she can unequivocally be counted as a philosopher. A lot of "ifs," but the only way to settle this. Would this be acceptable to the Objectivists out there? And no, I am not this Edward character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.24.167 (talk) 06:49, 9 April 2012
- One negative doesn't eliminate the positives. However it does verify the opposition to her being labelled a philosopher. To include this as a particular criticism of Rand is about as far as you could go with that ref, or indeed if any more "top philosophers" added their name to a similar statement.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- Except Pojman doesn't say Rand isn't a philosopher. Rather, he criticizes her ethical theory. There are two different questions here: 1) whether philosophers have criticized Rands ideas, and 2) whether they have denied that she deserves the label 'philosopher'. The first is definitely true and provable from reliable sources. The main issues on that front are how much criticism to include here vs. the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article, and which examples. Add Pojman to the list of possibilities. The second is what has been disputed in the last several paragraphs above, and unfortunately Pojman doesn't add anything new there. --RL0919 (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Literary reception
There has been an effort recently (and others in the past) to remove a passage from the lead that characterizes the literary reception for Rand's fiction as being predominantly negative. The current wording says it "was not well received by literary critics". An editor was recently blocked for edit warring over this. The sentence was previously uncited (as is common for summary text in the lead section), but because it was challenged, I moved a citation up from the body that directly addresses this. It is from The New Ayn Rand Companion by Mimi Reisel Gladstein. Gladstein is a respected academic and an expert on Rand as a literary figure. I quote from the cited material, which is a book from an academic publisher: "Over the years, there have been those few reviewers who have appreciated not only Rand’s writing style, but also her message. Their number is far outweighed by reviewers who have been everything from hysterically hostile to merely uncomprehending. The antagonism of critical reaction grew in direct proportion to the enthusiasm of the reading public." This is probably the single best overall summary because it is short and comprehensive, but other sources could be cited. For example, Anne Heller's biography of Rand describes the reviews for Atlas Shrugged: "They were not merely critical, they were hateful and dishonest." Does anyone want to challenge with contrary sources? --RL0919 (talk) 22:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm just a passerby on this, but if the reviews were "hateful and dishonest", doesn't that make them unfair? And in such a case shouldn't "unfairness" be mentioned? Depending, of course, if this is a widespread opinion among experts. Δρ.Κ. 22:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any problems with the material that was removed, and I think restoring it was justified. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 22:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- Regarding Dr.K's question, I couldn't say that particular detail is "a widespread opinion among experts", although I understand why Heller said it. It's also specific to the reviews of one book. For contrast, Heller says the reviews for We the Living were "mixed", and her description of the reviews for The Fountainhead is, "Reviewers were hostile or, at best, bewildered." One thing that makes Gladstein especially useful as a source on this is that she summarizes Rand's reception overall, whereas many other sources discuss it book-by-book. --RL0919 (talk) 22:44, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you RL0919 for the clarification. I agree with your approach based on your explanation. Δρ.Κ. 22:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Kant
Per this edit deleting a sentence to "trim", since this is not a significant trim and yet I find those words very much enlightening regarding not only her position towords kant (that to) but her attitude towards philosophy in general, so I think it's of interest to the reader and should not have been deleted. --MeUser42 (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I humbly suggest that if you want to learn something about Rand's attitude to Kant, you look elsewhere. I stand by my removal of that content - it is sufficient to quote her calling Kant a "monster", the "most evil man in history" stuff is pandering to sensationalism and serves no useful purpose. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 23:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- This is indeed sensationalism, and conveys to the reader (as it did to me) valuebal information about her approach. Since this is only a few words (5), the value of the trimming for the sake of trimming is lesser, and since I found it valueble indeed, it should be left in the stable version before your edit. --MeUser42 (talk) 02:53, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it's only a few words, but in principle it's wrong to use two quotes from Rand saying how much she hated Kant when the same point can be made with only one quotation. We should strive for economy, and excessive use of quotations makes for a poor article. Snowded has restored the "most evil man" quotation, but fortunately he has added it instead of, rather than in addition to, the other quotation. I disagree with restoring the most evil man remark, but not enough to consider it worth reverting. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 04:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- I’d prefer to read her objections to Kant instead of her flamboyant and hyperbolic rhetoric. Why even include “monster” unless its to ridicule her rhetoric? What’s her objection to Kant's ideas? Jason from nyc (talk) 16:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's an encyclopedia article about Rand's life and work as a whole, so any coverage of this particular should stay brief. My impression is that the "most evil man in history" quote is somewhat commonly used in secondary sources to illustrate her view of Kant, more so than "monster". But that's just an impression, not something I've seriously researched. --RL0919 (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Deciding which quote to use should be a matter of editorial judgment; I don't think it should be decided based on which quote is more commonly used. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with PoC that one quote on the subject of Kant is enough. The "most evil man in history" seems the more revealing of the two (my editorial judgement :) Sunray (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2012 (UT
- I'd agree if we explain what she means. The references explain her assessment. Let's add after "most evil man in history" because (in her view) Kant’s philosophy, that reality is unknowable in itself, lays the foundation for the subjectivism and relativism that followed. Then delete the rest of the line about Walsh's and Seddon's assessment of Rand's interpretation of Kant (which isn't currently stated) but leave the references to Walsh and Seddon. If one leaves only "monster" and "most evil man" it degenerates into name-calling and makes the article gossipy. Let's summarize for the reader the sources so that they don't have to read them for themselves (like I just had to). Isn't that the job of the editors? Jason from nyc (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with PoC that one quote on the subject of Kant is enough. The "most evil man in history" seems the more revealing of the two (my editorial judgement :) Sunray (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2012 (UT
- Deciding which quote to use should be a matter of editorial judgment; I don't think it should be decided based on which quote is more commonly used. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's an encyclopedia article about Rand's life and work as a whole, so any coverage of this particular should stay brief. My impression is that the "most evil man in history" quote is somewhat commonly used in secondary sources to illustrate her view of Kant, more so than "monster". But that's just an impression, not something I've seriously researched. --RL0919 (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- I’d prefer to read her objections to Kant instead of her flamboyant and hyperbolic rhetoric. Why even include “monster” unless its to ridicule her rhetoric? What’s her objection to Kant's ideas? Jason from nyc (talk) 16:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it's only a few words, but in principle it's wrong to use two quotes from Rand saying how much she hated Kant when the same point can be made with only one quotation. We should strive for economy, and excessive use of quotations makes for a poor article. Snowded has restored the "most evil man" quotation, but fortunately he has added it instead of, rather than in addition to, the other quotation. I disagree with restoring the most evil man remark, but not enough to consider it worth reverting. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 04:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- This is indeed sensationalism, and conveys to the reader (as it did to me) valuebal information about her approach. Since this is only a few words (5), the value of the trimming for the sake of trimming is lesser, and since I found it valueble indeed, it should be left in the stable version before your edit. --MeUser42 (talk) 02:53, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Did Rand Collect Social Security or Welfare?
I've read several places on the Internet that author Scott McConnel claims in his book "100 Voices: An Oral History of Ayn Rand" that Rand collected Social Security or Welfare or both to pay for lung sugery. McConnel quotes Eva Pryor, a consultant for Rand's law firm, as saying she helped Rand acquire the assistance under an assumed name (Ann O'Connor). However none of the websites seem reputable and none provide page numbers. Is there any truth to this? Can anybody shed some light? Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Some of it is true. The book is a collection of interviews, so McConnell doesn't claim anything directly about this, but Eva Pryor was one of the interviewees. Pryor says she was dispatched by Rand's lawyers to talk to Rand about signing up for Social Security and Medicare benefits. Rand wasn't going to apply, but "after several meetings and arguments" she gave Pryor power of attorney and Pryor did the rest. Pryor says this was in 1976, over a year after Rand's lung surgery, so it wouldn't have been paying for that. There is nothing in the interview about an assumed name. ("Ayn Rand" is a pen name. Another interviewee from the law firm says elsewhere in the book that her legal name was Alice O'Connor.) As far as I can tell, most commentaries about this are based on one article that contained several inaccuracies, which they repeat without even looking at the book, hence the lack of specific references. HTH --RL0919 (talk) 23:40, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- So why isn't this information in this article? It seems significant given that Rand spoke out adamantly against government assistance. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 15:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- The appropriateness of including this was covered in detail in previous discussions. The short version is that most reliable biographies of Rand don't mention this at all, and the few that do mention it briefly don't treat it as a point of criticism. So in keeping with Misplaced Pages policy, the article follows their lead. What topics are popular with bloggers does not dictate our article content. --RL0919 (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- I checked my local library's website and the book is there. I'm going to borrow to see if these information is actually included. I also found a Huffington post article citing this information (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-ford/ayn-rand-and-the-vip-dipe_b_792184.html.) Those are not blogging fads. What objections would you (RL0919)or other editors have if the information is included and properly attributed to these sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue Eagle 21063 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
O'Connor was, indeed, her legal last name - so that part is trivia. Misplaced Pages does not make a point of examining doctor bills, and unless reliable sources make a claim, and only to the extent that a claim about Rand is made and with due weight, would this article contain such stuff. Misplaced Pages does not use bloggers and their interesting viewpoints as a source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- The Huffington Post article is a polemical piece so it doesn't really count. I think its very relevant, but it would have to be a reliable source. As I remember its only started to come into conversations recently. Gary Weiss in Ayn Rand Nation p61-62 makes the point explicitly, and critically "Reality had intruded on her ideological pipedreams" is one phrase. Happy to provide the full text if people want, but it is I think enough to include it. ----Snowded 18:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- To user:Collect: Why don't you view Scott McConnel and the "Huffington Post" as reliable sources? To user:Snowded: Please provide the full text you found in "Ayn Rand Nation". Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- Done, if anyone else wants it email me. Misplaced Pages blocks the sites I use for file sharing ----Snowded 05:46, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rumor has it that Rand walked on city streets. Is there a reliable source that can confirm this, too? Jason from nyc (talk) 12:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- She sent letters through the post office as well, and even collected government-issued stamps. And yes that can be confirmed with reliable sources. The real issue isn't whether it is true (at least some of the basic facts), but whether it is significant enough to include in an encyclopedia article. "Retired woman signs up for social insurance program" is on par with "dog bites mailman", so just saying "Rand signed up for Social Security and Medicare" would be a strange thing to include. What makes people interested is the associated criticism. But there are a lot of critical things said about Rand, so in the world of possible criticisms that could be in the article, I'm don't see how something that is only mentioned in one book and a couple of marginal op-eds is even on the radar. --RL0919 (talk) 17:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Registering for health care is a different order of magnitude from using stamps. The source I mentioned is very clear that the implications are that what she advocated in theory she was not prepared to carry out in practice. The book is a reliable source, its a matter of finding the right wording. ----Snowded 18:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- I know what the criticism is. It's wrong (she explicitly advocated accepting benefits if you had paid for them with taxes, so was doing what she said), but a criticism needn't be valid to be included. Rather, my point is that if we include everything about Rand that is in a reliable source, this will be the longest encyclopedia article ever created. There must be some criteria beyond the bare minimum of being in one RS. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- I’m not sure there is any figure on the libertarian-right or among Objectivists who argues that boycotting the state would make it wither away (with perhaps the single exception of Samuel Konkin). Those that oppose government funding of certain services advocate changing the law through the ballot box--not by self-denial (especially if one’s been taxed). Rand had lived in Soviet Russia and yes she used government services. I guess by Snowed’s logic anyone who lived in the USSR and opposed communism must have been a hypocrite. Jason from nyc (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- I know what the criticism is. It's wrong (she explicitly advocated accepting benefits if you had paid for them with taxes, so was doing what she said), but a criticism needn't be valid to be included. Rather, my point is that if we include everything about Rand that is in a reliable source, this will be the longest encyclopedia article ever created. There must be some criteria beyond the bare minimum of being in one RS. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Registering for health care is a different order of magnitude from using stamps. The source I mentioned is very clear that the implications are that what she advocated in theory she was not prepared to carry out in practice. The book is a reliable source, its a matter of finding the right wording. ----Snowded 18:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- She sent letters through the post office as well, and even collected government-issued stamps. And yes that can be confirmed with reliable sources. The real issue isn't whether it is true (at least some of the basic facts), but whether it is significant enough to include in an encyclopedia article. "Retired woman signs up for social insurance program" is on par with "dog bites mailman", so just saying "Rand signed up for Social Security and Medicare" would be a strange thing to include. What makes people interested is the associated criticism. But there are a lot of critical things said about Rand, so in the world of possible criticisms that could be in the article, I'm don't see how something that is only mentioned in one book and a couple of marginal op-eds is even on the radar. --RL0919 (talk) 17:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rumor has it that Rand walked on city streets. Is there a reliable source that can confirm this, too? Jason from nyc (talk) 12:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Done, if anyone else wants it email me. Misplaced Pages blocks the sites I use for file sharing ----Snowded 05:46, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- To user:Collect: Why don't you view Scott McConnel and the "Huffington Post" as reliable sources? To user:Snowded: Please provide the full text you found in "Ayn Rand Nation". Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Rand accepted Medicare as well as Social Security. Medicare is a form of government assistance. That's a significant departure from her life philosopy. It also demonstrates the impractical nature of her philosophy because even she couldn't follow it. I'm sorry but that's BIG and it comes from a reliable source. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's big in your opinion. But the proper way to edit an article is not to cherry pick a rare source that states what you agree with, but rather to summarize the points that are commonly made across the reliable sources (preferably the best quality of sources as well, if there is a variety available). If it becomes standard for biographies of Rand to dwell on this "significant departure", then it would be appropriate to mention, just as the article discusses other issues that some would rather bury, such as her affair and her amphetamine use. But that isn't the case to date for this particular tidbit. --RL0919 (talk) 04:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- And its small in your opinion. Now can we move on from silly comparisons and discuss the issue. Weiss is a significant author and his book one of the few to reflect on Rand's overall influence and position rather than being a biog. The source explicitly makes the point that her philosophy was not borne our in practice when she faced hard choices. There is no wikipedia requirement to have something appear in multiple sources over time to be relevant; this is especially so as this issue has only recently gained currency. A simple phrase to the effect that she did register, and add commentary (Weiss has argued ...) would seem reasonable. ----Snowded 08:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- RL0919: Your arguments for keeping this informaiton out of the article strike me as specious. Once I get my copy of "100 Voices" I'm going to edit the article to point out Rand received Medicare and Social Security. However, I'll be careful to attribute it to Scott McConnel. I'm curious to see how this plays out. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- Snowded, in a thread above you have argued that it might be undue weight to use a single word ('philosopher') to describe Rand, even though there are dozens of reliable sources that do this, including a number of peer-reviewed scholarly works. But in this thread you seem to be supporting the inclusion of multiple sentences to convey a criticism found in a much smaller number of sources of lower quality. I'm curious to understand how you reconcile these two positions. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- The question of if she is or is not a philosopher has been around for a long time and you would expect here to be so designated in any major encyclopaedia etc. which she is not, that as I said is an issue of Misplaced Pages policy. As it happens, as as you have relied on, Misplaced Pages policy does not allow that sort of issue to be taken into account as it does not deal with negative evidence seeing that as original research. So on policy ground your unwillingness to see a reference to her evident hypocrisy does that stand. That aside, this issue has only recently emerged as an issue and I have referenced one of the first commentaries to pick up on it. Its properly sourced and relevant. ----Snowded 05:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- That Rand applied for Social Security has been sourceable since at least 2004. What is new is the criticism based on it. In the circumstances, to be "one of the first" reliable sources raising this criticism really means "one of the only" -- any thought that this will become commonly discussed in future sources is just speculation. We work with the sources that exist in the present. The question of due weight applies here, just as you have raised it regarding the "philosopher" question. The difference between the two situations is simple: there are a bunch of reliable sources that call Rand a philosopher (I can cite over a dozen without breaking a sweat), including articles in respected newspapers, peer-reviewed academic books, encyclopedias, etc. In contrast, the reliable sources criticizing Rand over her use of retirement benefits are one polemical book and a couple of disputably-"reliable" online opinion pieces. So the former don't suffice in your opinion, but the latter do? That seems a bit out-of-balance. --RL0919 (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- You really don't like this one do you? I've made my point on "philosopher" that I think wikipedia policy is wrong but I have to abide by it. Now get that one out of your system please. Here we have a "fact" about her life that is considered evidence of hypocrisy in a reliable source. That is more than enough for a mention in the main body of the article. The book in question is not polemical, it is a considered piece based on a fair amount to research, including interviews with some of Rand's inner circle. If there is additional material in 100 sources then we should attempt any entry based on both sources, but the one I mention is enough. If someone else doesn't get there first I will attempt to amend the article with the material this week. ----Snowded 22:31, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- That Rand applied for Social Security has been sourceable since at least 2004. What is new is the criticism based on it. In the circumstances, to be "one of the first" reliable sources raising this criticism really means "one of the only" -- any thought that this will become commonly discussed in future sources is just speculation. We work with the sources that exist in the present. The question of due weight applies here, just as you have raised it regarding the "philosopher" question. The difference between the two situations is simple: there are a bunch of reliable sources that call Rand a philosopher (I can cite over a dozen without breaking a sweat), including articles in respected newspapers, peer-reviewed academic books, encyclopedias, etc. In contrast, the reliable sources criticizing Rand over her use of retirement benefits are one polemical book and a couple of disputably-"reliable" online opinion pieces. So the former don't suffice in your opinion, but the latter do? That seems a bit out-of-balance. --RL0919 (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- The question of if she is or is not a philosopher has been around for a long time and you would expect here to be so designated in any major encyclopaedia etc. which she is not, that as I said is an issue of Misplaced Pages policy. As it happens, as as you have relied on, Misplaced Pages policy does not allow that sort of issue to be taken into account as it does not deal with negative evidence seeing that as original research. So on policy ground your unwillingness to see a reference to her evident hypocrisy does that stand. That aside, this issue has only recently emerged as an issue and I have referenced one of the first commentaries to pick up on it. Its properly sourced and relevant. ----Snowded 05:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Snowded, in a thread above you have argued that it might be undue weight to use a single word ('philosopher') to describe Rand, even though there are dozens of reliable sources that do this, including a number of peer-reviewed scholarly works. But in this thread you seem to be supporting the inclusion of multiple sentences to convey a criticism found in a much smaller number of sources of lower quality. I'm curious to understand how you reconcile these two positions. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- RL0919: Your arguments for keeping this informaiton out of the article strike me as specious. Once I get my copy of "100 Voices" I'm going to edit the article to point out Rand received Medicare and Social Security. However, I'll be careful to attribute it to Scott McConnel. I'm curious to see how this plays out. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- And its small in your opinion. Now can we move on from silly comparisons and discuss the issue. Weiss is a significant author and his book one of the few to reflect on Rand's overall influence and position rather than being a biog. The source explicitly makes the point that her philosophy was not borne our in practice when she faced hard choices. There is no wikipedia requirement to have something appear in multiple sources over time to be relevant; this is especially so as this issue has only recently gained currency. A simple phrase to the effect that she did register, and add commentary (Weiss has argued ...) would seem reasonable. ----Snowded 08:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
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Article cross-talk
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Use of cross-talk page
This section is transcluded from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Objectivism/Cross talk. (edit | history)There doesn't seem to be much use of the Objectivism cross-talk page lately. I'm the only one who has used it since February. Is it still relevant? --RL0919 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps not. Although I love it, I have to say it now seems like an esoteric feature. Karbinski (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Ron Paul & Paul Ryan (and other Politicians) influenced
The article says that Rand influenced US congressmen Ron Paul and Paul Ryan. I don't really understand the reasoning behind this. I can sort of see why Ron Paul would be on this list (even though the only thing he seems to agree with Ayn Rand on is free market economies), but having Paul Ryan on this doesn't make much sense at all. And if the only reason why they're both on this list is because they all agree on which economic system is better, how does this qualify these two for being put on this list? I could name well over a thousand politicians who support or supported free markets and put them on the list, as well. I want to remove these names, but first I would like some reasoning or citations as to why their mentions are relevant. Linking the reasoning of politicians to famous philosophers just doesn't seem practical, to me. WikiGavel (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC).
- They are listed because of specific sources that say Rand influenced them, not because of inference. Their names used to be listed in the main body of the article with the sources cited there, but subsequent editing removed the names of specific politicians from the body in favor of a more general statement, so now their particular names only appear in the infobox. If you want to check the sources I could dig them up from a past version of the article. --RL0919 (talk) 14:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I would appreciate seeing a source, for clarification on this. WikiGavel (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- The last ones used before the names were removed from the article body are included in the reference note now used to support the general statement that "Republican Congressmen and conservative pundits have acknowledged her influence on their lives and recommended her novels." That's currently note 164, which cites "Gladstein 2009, p. 124; Heller 2009, p. xi; Doherty 2009, p. 51; Burns 2009, p. 283". Specifically, I know that Ron Paul is mentioned in the Heller book, and Paul Ryan in the Doherty article. The latter is available online here. There are other sources that could be cited; for example, Rand's influence on Ron Paul is mentioned in Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand. HTH --RL0919 (talk) 01:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- There are many sources to go through in this regard. Senator Ron Johnson was attacked for his admiration of Rand in the debates he had prior to his election with the former incumbent Russ Feingold. Far from backing down, he defended Rand and 'Atlas Shrugged', specifically. See, and for example. And this was not an isolated instance with the current crop of "Tea Party" Republicans.Oolyons (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Here's a source for Ryan: . It's hostile to Rand, but stresses her substantial, not mere "pro forma" influence on Ryan.Oolyons (talk) 18:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Martin Anderson, i.e., Ronald Reagan's first chief domestic policy adviser, was an actual student of Rand's, giving substance to Reagan's own claim to being an "admirer" of Rand. See McConnell, Scott, 100 Voices: an Oral History of Ayn Rand, 2010, New American Library, pp. 264-267, and Skinner, Anderson and Anderson, eds., Reagan: a Life in Letters, 2003, New York: Free Press, p. 181-182. Oolyons (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC).
- On the Michael Savage radio show on January 30, 2012, Congressman Allen West went out of his way to recommend Atlas Shrugged. It's ubiquitous. Oolyons (talk) 04:41, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Martin Anderson, i.e., Ronald Reagan's first chief domestic policy adviser, was an actual student of Rand's, giving substance to Reagan's own claim to being an "admirer" of Rand. See McConnell, Scott, 100 Voices: an Oral History of Ayn Rand, 2010, New American Library, pp. 264-267, and Skinner, Anderson and Anderson, eds., Reagan: a Life in Letters, 2003, New York: Free Press, p. 181-182. Oolyons (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC).
- Here's a source for Ryan: . It's hostile to Rand, but stresses her substantial, not mere "pro forma" influence on Ryan.Oolyons (talk) 18:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- There are many sources to go through in this regard. Senator Ron Johnson was attacked for his admiration of Rand in the debates he had prior to his election with the former incumbent Russ Feingold. Far from backing down, he defended Rand and 'Atlas Shrugged', specifically. See, and for example. And this was not an isolated instance with the current crop of "Tea Party" Republicans.Oolyons (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- The last ones used before the names were removed from the article body are included in the reference note now used to support the general statement that "Republican Congressmen and conservative pundits have acknowledged her influence on their lives and recommended her novels." That's currently note 164, which cites "Gladstein 2009, p. 124; Heller 2009, p. xi; Doherty 2009, p. 51; Burns 2009, p. 283". Specifically, I know that Ron Paul is mentioned in the Heller book, and Paul Ryan in the Doherty article. The latter is available online here. There are other sources that could be cited; for example, Rand's influence on Ron Paul is mentioned in Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand. HTH --RL0919 (talk) 01:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- I would appreciate seeing a source, for clarification on this. WikiGavel (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Mises shouldn't be listed as an influence
Yes, Rand said Mises was an influence of her understanding of ECONOMICS, but Rand was not an economist and never attempted to be one. She wrote philosophy and fiction, and, as such, her listed influences should be limited to those who made work on philosophy and fiction that influenced her philosophy and fiction. If we include Mises, we might as well include someone who influenced her choices in wardrobe, or a musician (if she played an instrument), etc. Having Mises as an influence when she never wrote on economics implies Mises influenced her philosophy/fiction writing style, which he didn't. Byelf2007 (talk) 26 December 2011
- Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to follow sources. There are multiple secondary sources that say he influenced her, and some of these attribute influence beyond just economics. If you can find that type of support for someone who influenced her wardrobe, you can argue for putting it in. Until then, personal opinions that are not supported by sources are not an appropriate basis for editing articles. --RL0919 (talk) 01:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- Which source(s) attribute his influence as pertaining to philosophy and/or fiction writing? Byelf2007 (talk) 26 December 2011
- I don't accept that only influence on "philosophy and fiction" should be considered. If reliable sources consider influence in other areas to be significant, then your personal opinions to the contrary are not definitive. That said, here are a few sources:
- "Rand was strongly influenced in developing her political philosophy by ... the Austrian-school economist Ludwig von Mises." (The Libertarian Reader, p. 418)
- "A more important intellectual influence for Rand was Hayek's mentor, Ludwig von Mises ...." (Goddess of the Market (updated: this is from her dissertation, not the book of the same name), p. 77)
- This could be an influence on her views on economics only. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- Rand's views of economy were integrated into her philosophical system, unlike those of many economists. — DAGwyn (talk) 10:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- "Her total free market vision ... drew much from that of Ludwig von Mises." (The Encyclopedia of the History of American Management, p. 434)
- Again, "free market vision" is vague and could be limited to economics. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- " said to me, 'I don't agree with him epistemologically, but as far as my economics and political economy are concerned, Ludwig von Mises is the most important thing that's ever happened to me.'" (100 Voices, p. 166)
- I think four sources making these types of very explicit statements should be sufficient to say he influenced her. --RL0919 (talk) 01:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's two sources that appear to check out, so that's sufficient; I put Mises back in. I'm not aware of any Bastiat or Hazlitt sources for influence on political views, however. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- Once again I do not accept your arbitrary limitations on what types of influence could be considered. Regardless, Hazlitt is probably a marginal case, and I haven't found the sort of obvious, explicit "X influenced her" type of statements that are so easily found for Mises. (They definitely had a personal and professional relationship, but that's not the same thing.) As for Bastiat, I'm not sure how he even got on the list, and I doubt an influence could be sourced. --RL0919 (talk) 03:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's two sources that appear to check out, so that's sufficient; I put Mises back in. I'm not aware of any Bastiat or Hazlitt sources for influence on political views, however. Byelf2007 (talk) 27 December 2011
- I don't accept that only influence on "philosophy and fiction" should be considered. If reliable sources consider influence in other areas to be significant, then your personal opinions to the contrary are not definitive. That said, here are a few sources:
- Which source(s) attribute his influence as pertaining to philosophy and/or fiction writing? Byelf2007 (talk) 26 December 2011
Ayn Rand's fundamental differences with Mises were many, and her political orientation itself appears not to owe anything to Mises directly (nor is such an influence argued for in the recent biographies on Rand). Her (published) margin notes on her own copies of Mises' books, Human Action and Bureaucracy, indicate her vehement disagreement with Mises on philosophical issues, while her admiration of his work purely as an economist is reflected in the high but qualified praise Mises' writing got in the journals Rand herself published, edited and endorsed in the 1960s. See, e.g., "Books: Human Action," The Objectivist Newsletter, vol. 3, no. 9, Sept., 1963, and Mayhew, Robert, ed., Ayn Rand's Marginalia, 1995, New Milford, CT: Second Renaissance Books, pp. 104-144. Oolyons (talk) 19:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- How does her diagreeing with Mises on several issues invalidate a realiable source that says he was an influence to her in developing her philosophy? Keep in mind that Rand didn't hold a number of the views that would later be included in Objectivism back when he was influencing her. Byelf2007 (talk) 24 January 2011
- No, in fact, her ideas changed very little. For this see, "Woman for all Seasons", . The reply from Prof. Burns (who is cited above), author of Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, is here: . Even in her reply, Prof. Burns notes that, "In comparison to the figures , who made some of the wildest swings in ideology imaginable, Rand was a paragon of consistency. It is to her credit that she saw Communism for what it was right from the start – though she had 'inside information' that most American intellectuals lacked..." Nor does Burns dispute the fact that Rand's basic political orientation itself dated from her childhood admiration of Alexander Kerensky, and teenaged admiration of America. And nor is there any evidence that Rand ~ ever ~ shared any of Mises' epistemological approach, his utilitarianism in ethics, or any other aspect of his basic, philosophical ideas. What we require here is some idea later found in Objectivism that he actually provided to Rand. There is nothing to indicate that there were any. Oolyons (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You assert that Rand did not hold all of her later philosophical ideas "back when was influencing her". However, her margin notes in Human Action, for example, appear to have been written upon her first reading of the book, containing exclamation marks ("!") and items like, e.g., "Good God!", along with her many substantive comments. These same notes show her strong disagreements along the very same lines as her later thought would suggest. Mayhew, Robert, ed., Ayn Rand's Marginalia, 1995, New Milford, CT: Second Renaissance Books, pp. 104-144. What we need is evidence of some idea, ANY idea, he could have provided her, i.e., some substance to the claim of influence. Oolyons (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- For example, the most basic idea in Rand's mature political thought is that of individual rights. Mises did not adhere to any variety of natural or normative rights theory whatever. Rand's hero in her 1943 novel (The Fountainhead) advocates rights based on Rand's fundamental approach, and it is pretty much the same as her later view. But I don't think there's evidence that she had read any Mises at that point. Oolyons (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a forum for debating if/how Rand's ideas changed over the years. Please take such matters to a discussion board, Facebook or whatever. Multiple reliable sources explicitly describe Mises as an influence on Rand. You can reply to yourself a dozen times with more arguments about how they differ, but none of that changes what the sources say. Find reliable sources that explicitly say he had no influence on her, and we can talk about that. --RL0919 (talk) 21:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course not, but Rand's own opinion about this is voiced in her well known assertion that Aristotle alone was a ~ philosophical ~ influence (an important distinction) on her. See "About the Author", Atlas Shrugged. Moreover, we have just cited her own notes. And her own notes -- as she reads Mises -- have been published. Perhaps you dispute the idea that Rand herself is a "reliable source" about her influences? These notes also show ~ her own opinion ~ of precisely how little the "influence" was, for example, of Human Action, even as that alleged influence was supposed to be happening. I have also already cited another source directly arguing that Rand's philosophical ideas, in general, changed very little over the years and arguing that her own claims about what influenced her are credible. All of this is enough to require inclusion of Rand's own opinion on the matter, that is, if Mises is to be claimed as a influence on her philosophy here. In any case, is it really too much just to ask what, exactly, the suggested influence could have been? And are we to include the demonstrably impossible just because someone claims it to be so? Oolyons (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I asked you a simple question which you didn't answer: how does Rand disagreeing with Mises mean he didn't influence her philosophical views when we have a reliable source saying he did so. You haven't answered this, and have only doubled down on this like, saying, effectively, "You guys just don't get it--she REALLY disagreed with him" (which I'm not denying). You don't appear to know enough about Rand's views to know that she vehemently disagreed with Aristotle on a lot more than with Mises. Does this somehow invalidate Aristotle being an influence on her philosophical views? Of course not.
- Of course not, but Rand's own opinion about this is voiced in her well known assertion that Aristotle alone was a ~ philosophical ~ influence (an important distinction) on her. See "About the Author", Atlas Shrugged. Moreover, we have just cited her own notes. And her own notes -- as she reads Mises -- have been published. Perhaps you dispute the idea that Rand herself is a "reliable source" about her influences? These notes also show ~ her own opinion ~ of precisely how little the "influence" was, for example, of Human Action, even as that alleged influence was supposed to be happening. I have also already cited another source directly arguing that Rand's philosophical ideas, in general, changed very little over the years and arguing that her own claims about what influenced her are credible. All of this is enough to require inclusion of Rand's own opinion on the matter, that is, if Mises is to be claimed as a influence on her philosophy here. In any case, is it really too much just to ask what, exactly, the suggested influence could have been? And are we to include the demonstrably impossible just because someone claims it to be so? Oolyons (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a forum for debating if/how Rand's ideas changed over the years. Please take such matters to a discussion board, Facebook or whatever. Multiple reliable sources explicitly describe Mises as an influence on Rand. You can reply to yourself a dozen times with more arguments about how they differ, but none of that changes what the sources say. Find reliable sources that explicitly say he had no influence on her, and we can talk about that. --RL0919 (talk) 21:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- For example, the most basic idea in Rand's mature political thought is that of individual rights. Mises did not adhere to any variety of natural or normative rights theory whatever. Rand's hero in her 1943 novel (The Fountainhead) advocates rights based on Rand's fundamental approach, and it is pretty much the same as her later view. But I don't think there's evidence that she had read any Mises at that point. Oolyons (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You assert that Rand did not hold all of her later philosophical ideas "back when was influencing her". However, her margin notes in Human Action, for example, appear to have been written upon her first reading of the book, containing exclamation marks ("!") and items like, e.g., "Good God!", along with her many substantive comments. These same notes show her strong disagreements along the very same lines as her later thought would suggest. Mayhew, Robert, ed., Ayn Rand's Marginalia, 1995, New Milford, CT: Second Renaissance Books, pp. 104-144. What we need is evidence of some idea, ANY idea, he could have provided her, i.e., some substance to the claim of influence. Oolyons (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, in fact, her ideas changed very little. For this see, "Woman for all Seasons", . The reply from Prof. Burns (who is cited above), author of Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, is here: . Even in her reply, Prof. Burns notes that, "In comparison to the figures , who made some of the wildest swings in ideology imaginable, Rand was a paragon of consistency. It is to her credit that she saw Communism for what it was right from the start – though she had 'inside information' that most American intellectuals lacked..." Nor does Burns dispute the fact that Rand's basic political orientation itself dated from her childhood admiration of Alexander Kerensky, and teenaged admiration of America. And nor is there any evidence that Rand ~ ever ~ shared any of Mises' epistemological approach, his utilitarianism in ethics, or any other aspect of his basic, philosophical ideas. What we require here is some idea later found in Objectivism that he actually provided to Rand. There is nothing to indicate that there were any. Oolyons (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You also appear to be implying that we can't list an influence to Rand unless she said explicitly in an interview that she regards Mises as an influence on her philosophical views. That's not how this site works. We only care about reliable sources as per the site's standards. Otherwise, we would not list Rand as a "libertarian" if she said she wasn't one, regardless of the definition of the term. You could just as easily claim that Rand shouldn't be listed as female if she said she wasn't female. Byelf2007 (talk) 25 January 2011
- No, Bye, getting nasty and personal with me won't help you. Rand regarded some things in Aristotle as being much more important, more essential than other things. She was well aware of Immovable Movers and Natural Slavery and many other differences. Yet, as makes sense to Aristotle scholars like Prof. Allan Gotthelf and me, she cited him as her ONLY philosophical source. Other scholars agree with her self-assessment here, as well, such as Leonard Peikoff (see, e.g., his 1995 television interview Ideas in Action, WJM Productions, where he agrees with Rand's self-description here.). Now, I actually answered you (go back and read carefully) by specifying the fundamental areas within what Rand regarded as her basic philosophy and showed that they have almost zero overlap with the comparable ideas of Mises, e.g., utilitarianism (which she vehemently argued against), subjective values, etc. I was demanding that the actual influence which is claimed be specified rather than merely asserted as the cited sources do, if you go and actually read them. Now, I am also aware of the recent efforts made by some in The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies to attempt to equate Austrian economics and Rand's ethics. This must, however, be regarded as a minority position and a controversial one, as the authors there imply repeatedly themselves. Austrians are normally regarded, for example, as being "value free" in their methodology. So, even to make ~ their ~ argument sources other than Mises MUST be cited. You will find that Mises' teacher, Carl Menger is the Austrian cited as showing the most affinity to Rand thought -- not Mises. And the link is Aristotle. In those articles, it emerges that Menger provides a crucial connection that (MAYBE, it is stressed) can bridge the two worlds, which are normally considered light years apart. But it is no where argued that Rand was ever influenced by Menger. Note, too, that it was Rand who first introduced one of Mises' leading American students, Murray Rothbard to the whole field of Aristotle's epistemology and the whole field of natural rights, according to Prof. Burns's new book on Rand, which all apparently came as a revelation to that leading student of Mises. Somehow it was all new to him even after studying Mises. To him, knowing both thinkers at the time, they were worlds apart. George Reisman's reports are much the same.
- Sure, Mises admired Atlas Shrugged. He even wrote Rand to tell her that it was "more than a novel," it was a "cogent analysis" of the evils "plaguing" our society, etc. But he no where claims an influence or even connection. Yes, Rand admired his economics, as the reviews of his work in the journals she edited show. And she overtly denies such an influence.
- No, I am not saying that we require any such admission as you describe from Rand in order to call something an influence. I am saying that we have a positive, outright assertion to contrary from Rand herself that there was no such influence at all, and I have cited support from other sources, like Gotthelf and Peikoff, who agree with her assessment. This makes what those others say controversial, as it directly contradicts Rand and those other scholars. This site 'works", I trust, by including all of this, as well, if a claim to the contrary is to be made. It should not suppress these other sources, like Rand herself(!), should it? What it can do, I am suggesting, is avoid the whole controversy by not claiming Mises to have been an influence. See, the idea is highly controversial. But if it is insisted that this be included, then I don't see how we avoid Rand's own directly contrary opinion and her supporters views, as well. Get it?Oolyons (talk) 03:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC).
- Oolyons, what thing from Rand herself? The margin notes? All you're talking about is her writing about how much she disagreed with Mises on various matters. Granted. Again, so what? Now you appear to be saying "But she said Aristotle was the only one who influenced her/really influenced her." 1) She's also said Aquinas was an influence to her. 2) What do you suppose she would write in the margins of Aristotle's works? 3) This stuff really doesn't matter, as we're ONLY concerned with what reliable sources have to say about how whether or not she was influenced by him (and her margin notes/position on utilitarianism does not preclude her from being influenced by him. Let's keep in mind that around the time she was getting to know him, Objectivism was still years away from being created. Rand voted for FDR in 1936, she hadn't rejected all of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche when writing the Fountainhead, that she would eventually reject when she was writing the Fountainhead, whether or not Roark from Fountainhead's behavior in Fountainhead is consistent with Objectivism is highly controversial (as it appears to endorse vigilantism), whether or not she was an Objectivist toward the tail end of writing Atlas Shrugged is difficult if not impossible to determine, etc. We have reliable sources that say Mises was an influence to her philosophical views. Now, if you want to cite (not just refer to) reliable sources that explicitly say she she wasn't, then that would make the matter murky enough to convince me that we should discontinue listing him (I wanted him out earlier). Byelf2007 (talk) 26 January 2011
- No, Bye. Rand is a reliable source. She denied that there was any such influence on her philosophy. Full stop. We must not distort matters by merely claiming Mises as an influence without discussing the controversy. Add to that: Rand's notes show her differing with Mises, just as one might expect -- even as she apparently reads him for the first time. Her notes on Aristotle would have been very different, I suspect. Add to that: no one can point to anything that Mises actually contributed to her philosophy, while his ideas contradict hers in numerous ways. Indeed, Aquinas makes a good contrast. We can point to the specifics, and those specifics are consistent with her philosophy. And what she liked about him was precisely his own use of Aristotle ("the Philosopher"), while Mises is not generally categorized as falling within Aristotle's school of thought. And, btw, you are poorly informed. Rand voted for FDR in ~ 1932 ~ because he opposed Prohibition, and before he had been President. (But by July of 1936, according to J. Burns, Rand was describing her "hatred" for the New Deal to friends, well before she had met most of her later "conservative" friends, such as Paterson, Hazlitt and others. Goddess of the Market, p.37-38.) And Rand had thoroughly rejected Nietzsche's entire approach to metaphysics and epistemology, his "perspectivism," in favor of Aristotelian logic when she was still in her 20s, and in her very first philosophical notes of any kind. In those notes, she also rejected any need for a "history" or "genealogy" of ethics, believing, even then, that only a logical "system" of ethics was necessary, in sharp contrast to Nietzsche. She was also arguing against his determinism in favor of volition. She was also advocating a system of rights (a bizarre idea for any "Nietzschean") long before The Fountainhead, as her correspondence and notes show. Formulations of "A is A" are even present in the first edition of We the Living(!) For all of this, see, and In short, all of her fundamental differences with Nietzsche were there before she ever wrote a word of The Fountainhead. Nor is there any evidence that Rand was uncomfortable with any of Roark's behavior later in her career. Her 1968 "Introduction" to the 25th anniversary edition would have been the place to state any qualifications (like the other qualifications she discussed there), but there are none. She actually ADDS Nietzsche back into the book there(!) In any case, none of this even remotely suggests any influence from Mises, that's for sure, an influence she denied. Oolyons (talk) 17:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- It can be said that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' economics, but I think that it just cannot -- uncontroversially -- be claimed that he was an influence on her philosophy. We can avoid all of this by simply avoiding calling him one. Oolyons (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Bye, even according to Heller, Ayn Rand and the World She Made (read the first several pages of chapter 2), Rand opposed both communism and a constitutional monarchy in favor of a liberal republic as early as 1917. All sources agree that she had a teenaged preference for Kerensky over all of the other practical options. Her correspondence throughout the 1930s shows a similar pro-U.S. Constitution orientation. See, . Oolyons (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oolyons, what's this source where Rand says this? Byelf2007 (talk) 31 January 2011
- The most famous instance of this claim by Rand can be found in "About the Author," in Atlas Shrugged (I've already cited it, above), the whole of which is a quotation from Rand, and she wrote there that the "only philosophical debt" she could "acknowledge" was to Aristotle. This is not an isolated instance, and the point can be found discussed by several sources, e.g. in J. Burns, Goddess of the Market, p. 2. Oolyons (talk) 19:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- And Rand's own account of her philosophical influences and development is closely followed by scholars such as Allan Gotthelf, "Life and Intellectual Development," chapters 1 and 2, On Ayn Rand, Wadsworth Philosophers Series, 2000, pp. 12-27, with no mention of Mises whatever. And J. Burns replies to another source () that I also provided earlier and which closely follows Rand's own account, here . Oolyons (talk) 21:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- How late after the publishing of Atlas Shrugged did she continue to say he was her only philosophical influence? Is there a source where she says this close to her death? You've also only listed a couple blog posts as additional evidence. On what grounds are they saying Aristotle was her only philosophical influence? Byelf2007 (talk) 1 February 2012
- She continued in this position all her life, Bye, up to the last televised interviews she did in the years before her death. And the scholarship is clear: Atlas Shrugged in 1957 represents her "mature view," according to all of our sources. There is no ~ argument ~ that her position (on anything) appreciably changed after this, and none is argued by any secondary source. The argument about her development -- and as I have shown, it is a highly controversial argument -- concerns her intellectual development in the pre-Atlas years, whether its from Burns or Heller or anyone else. The concept of a Misesian influence on Rand's philosophy is controversial and speculative, Bye, as your own inquiries show. They are also without any real substance. The "grounds" for saying that Aristotle was her only basic influence are all of the specifics of her philosophy, and Rand's account of their development from Aristotle. Oolyons (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- How late after the publishing of Atlas Shrugged did she continue to say he was her only philosophical influence? Is there a source where she says this close to her death? You've also only listed a couple blog posts as additional evidence. On what grounds are they saying Aristotle was her only philosophical influence? Byelf2007 (talk) 1 February 2012
- And Rand's own account of her philosophical influences and development is closely followed by scholars such as Allan Gotthelf, "Life and Intellectual Development," chapters 1 and 2, On Ayn Rand, Wadsworth Philosophers Series, 2000, pp. 12-27, with no mention of Mises whatever. And J. Burns replies to another source () that I also provided earlier and which closely follows Rand's own account, here . Oolyons (talk) 21:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- The most famous instance of this claim by Rand can be found in "About the Author," in Atlas Shrugged (I've already cited it, above), the whole of which is a quotation from Rand, and she wrote there that the "only philosophical debt" she could "acknowledge" was to Aristotle. This is not an isolated instance, and the point can be found discussed by several sources, e.g. in J. Burns, Goddess of the Market, p. 2. Oolyons (talk) 19:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oolyons, what's this source where Rand says this? Byelf2007 (talk) 31 January 2011
- Bye, even according to Heller, Ayn Rand and the World She Made (read the first several pages of chapter 2), Rand opposed both communism and a constitutional monarchy in favor of a liberal republic as early as 1917. All sources agree that she had a teenaged preference for Kerensky over all of the other practical options. Her correspondence throughout the 1930s shows a similar pro-U.S. Constitution orientation. See, . Oolyons (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- It can be said that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' economics, but I think that it just cannot -- uncontroversially -- be claimed that he was an influence on her philosophy. We can avoid all of this by simply avoiding calling him one. Oolyons (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, Bye. Rand is a reliable source. She denied that there was any such influence on her philosophy. Full stop. We must not distort matters by merely claiming Mises as an influence without discussing the controversy. Add to that: Rand's notes show her differing with Mises, just as one might expect -- even as she apparently reads him for the first time. Her notes on Aristotle would have been very different, I suspect. Add to that: no one can point to anything that Mises actually contributed to her philosophy, while his ideas contradict hers in numerous ways. Indeed, Aquinas makes a good contrast. We can point to the specifics, and those specifics are consistent with her philosophy. And what she liked about him was precisely his own use of Aristotle ("the Philosopher"), while Mises is not generally categorized as falling within Aristotle's school of thought. And, btw, you are poorly informed. Rand voted for FDR in ~ 1932 ~ because he opposed Prohibition, and before he had been President. (But by July of 1936, according to J. Burns, Rand was describing her "hatred" for the New Deal to friends, well before she had met most of her later "conservative" friends, such as Paterson, Hazlitt and others. Goddess of the Market, p.37-38.) And Rand had thoroughly rejected Nietzsche's entire approach to metaphysics and epistemology, his "perspectivism," in favor of Aristotelian logic when she was still in her 20s, and in her very first philosophical notes of any kind. In those notes, she also rejected any need for a "history" or "genealogy" of ethics, believing, even then, that only a logical "system" of ethics was necessary, in sharp contrast to Nietzsche. She was also arguing against his determinism in favor of volition. She was also advocating a system of rights (a bizarre idea for any "Nietzschean") long before The Fountainhead, as her correspondence and notes show. Formulations of "A is A" are even present in the first edition of We the Living(!) For all of this, see, and In short, all of her fundamental differences with Nietzsche were there before she ever wrote a word of The Fountainhead. Nor is there any evidence that Rand was uncomfortable with any of Roark's behavior later in her career. Her 1968 "Introduction" to the 25th anniversary edition would have been the place to state any qualifications (like the other qualifications she discussed there), but there are none. She actually ADDS Nietzsche back into the book there(!) In any case, none of this even remotely suggests any influence from Mises, that's for sure, an influence she denied. Oolyons (talk) 17:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oolyons, what thing from Rand herself? The margin notes? All you're talking about is her writing about how much she disagreed with Mises on various matters. Granted. Again, so what? Now you appear to be saying "But she said Aristotle was the only one who influenced her/really influenced her." 1) She's also said Aquinas was an influence to her. 2) What do you suppose she would write in the margins of Aristotle's works? 3) This stuff really doesn't matter, as we're ONLY concerned with what reliable sources have to say about how whether or not she was influenced by him (and her margin notes/position on utilitarianism does not preclude her from being influenced by him. Let's keep in mind that around the time she was getting to know him, Objectivism was still years away from being created. Rand voted for FDR in 1936, she hadn't rejected all of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche when writing the Fountainhead, that she would eventually reject when she was writing the Fountainhead, whether or not Roark from Fountainhead's behavior in Fountainhead is consistent with Objectivism is highly controversial (as it appears to endorse vigilantism), whether or not she was an Objectivist toward the tail end of writing Atlas Shrugged is difficult if not impossible to determine, etc. We have reliable sources that say Mises was an influence to her philosophical views. Now, if you want to cite (not just refer to) reliable sources that explicitly say she she wasn't, then that would make the matter murky enough to convince me that we should discontinue listing him (I wanted him out earlier). Byelf2007 (talk) 26 January 2011
- No, I am not saying that we require any such admission as you describe from Rand in order to call something an influence. I am saying that we have a positive, outright assertion to contrary from Rand herself that there was no such influence at all, and I have cited support from other sources, like Gotthelf and Peikoff, who agree with her assessment. This makes what those others say controversial, as it directly contradicts Rand and those other scholars. This site 'works", I trust, by including all of this, as well, if a claim to the contrary is to be made. It should not suppress these other sources, like Rand herself(!), should it? What it can do, I am suggesting, is avoid the whole controversy by not claiming Mises to have been an influence. See, the idea is highly controversial. But if it is insisted that this be included, then I don't see how we avoid Rand's own directly contrary opinion and her supporters views, as well. Get it?Oolyons (talk) 03:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC).
Were you the source of this from the above bullet point, Bye? "'A more important intellectual influence for Rand was Hayek's mentor, Ludwig von Mises ....' (Goddess of the Market, p. 77." In the hardcover, there is no such quotation whatever on page 77, and Burns' first mention of Mises occurs on page 106, and it reads, in contrast to your quotation, "Rand looked more favorably on Mises, Hayek's mentor, whose works she read during this time." (emphasis added) This is entirely different than alleging an "influence" on her ideas, and the reference above appears to be a plain misquote, unless there is some other "Hayek's mentor" phrase in the book that I've missed. In fact, Burns appears to recognize Rand's vast differences with Mises -- from the start -- in the areas of philosophy proper, i.e., metaphysics, epistemology and ethics (p. 141-142). And Burns says only that Mises' analysis "matched" Rand's understanding, that his work suggested an "insightful" parallel to her (already existing) ethics, that Mises "provided economic support for..." Rand's political position (all on page 142), NOT that he was in any way its source. In fact, Burns reports that Rand's own students were "puzzled" that Rand even "recommend his books" given their sharp differences, as evidenced in those very margin notes (p. 141). And Burns locates in time the possible period of Mises' alleged influence. Burns has been badly misquoted and misconstrued here, it seems. Oolyons (talk) 23:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- I provided the quote, which is legit and can be confirmed with a Google Books search. I will also point out something I mentioned earlier in the thread: the infobox listing is for "Influences". It doesn't say "Influences on her mature philosophy". And Burns very explicitly says that he was an "important intellectual influence". A person can be influenced by someone and still have disagreements with them, so all the wrangling over what disagreements she had with him and when her ideas did or did not stop changing is entirely beside the point. We have multiple sources that explicitly call him an influence. Against this we have so far seen zero sources that explicitly deny he was an influence. Instead, inferences are being made from silences, accompanied by an unjustified narrow focus on someone having to be a direct source for her philosophy, as if she were nothing but a philosopher. Ironically this line of argument is similar to the old "Rand is not a philosopher" arguments, which also relied on arguments from silence. In that dispute the matter was settled in favor of what the explicit statements in sources said, rather than for the interpretation of silences. This dispute should be settled in the same fashion. --RL0919 (talk) 23:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I found that same quote doing a Google Search, too, but the text provided is NOT the same as the text from Burns' book, which I have accurately quoted. Do you have a hard copy of the real book? Compare the book, the hardcover, if you will, from the Table of Contents (utterly different CHAPTER TITLES), forward. Compare the text. It is different. Burns has endnotes, this text has real "footnotes" on the bottom of the page, for example. Try, if you will, to find the quote in question in a hard copy of the actual book. Page 77 discusses Paterson, but not Mises at all. So, no, Burns does not say that, from what I can tell. Not from the hard copy of the book I am holding in my hands right now. I'm not sure what it is they have put under that title, but the text is not Burns'. (Whoever did say that did not say how much "more" up from zero he was going, either.) Moreover, you misconstrue my position altogether, in any case. And, as I have indicated, this can easily be solved by saying that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' work, just not calling him an "influence." Oolyons (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have other references in the Ayn Rand article, or others, been based on this text as alleged citations of Burns? Oolyons (talk) 02:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- A little bit of further browsing solves the mystery: The text in question is Burns' PhD dissertation, which bears the same name as the book she later based on it, but does not have identical text. And yes, I have the hardcover book, although I don't carry it around with me everywhere I travel, hence the use of Google Books for convenience. To my knowledge all citations are against the hardcover text, but you are welcome to review each and every citation in the article if you wish, and update them to reference the dissertation if needed. That would have more value than trying to argue from silences. --RL0919 (talk) 05:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I find it curious, then, that she completely retreated from her assertion of influence when it came time to publish. Now, in fact, its REMOVAL from her text is powerful evidence of the opposite. She went from calling him an "influence" in the earlier version to calling him merely someone Rand "looked on more favorably" than Hayek. That's a serious change in Burns's view. And, of course, you don't carry such a copy around, but, of course, I was arguing from Rand's actual denial of Mises as a philosophical influence, not any silence, and against a notion that is both baseless and wrong, namely a philosophical influence. I accept your distinction, but it must be made in the text if we are to avoid the issues raised here. Rand was a novelist and philosopher, but Mises was neither an influence on her philosophy -- something Rand overtly denied and for which you can cite no clear source whatever -- nor her literature (as Hugo and Dosteovsky, etc.). The secondary sources themselves (like Burns, in any version) stress the vast differences between the two thinkers, as well. At best, he was an "influence," as Burns writes, in that Mises' analysis "matched" her own understanding and that he "provided support" for Rand's political position with his economics. We must also note IF we are to suggest him as an influence, that they had HUGE differences in all the areas that Rand felt important, philosophically. Thus, if he is to be listed as any kind of influence, fairness to Rand's ideas dictates that all of these clear distinctions be made or we will be distorting the secondary sources you cite which claim this (or even ones that formerly claimed it.). Given the context, vagueness here is distortion. And we must avoid implying something that Rand overtly, and quite hotly (if we read her notes on Mises) denied. Merely calling him an influence without qualification is a lie. Oolyons (talk) 14:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't the reference in the text enough -- and better? Can't we remove him from the list of major influences, simply given the nebulous quality of the argued-for influence, since he is mentioned in the text in greater detail? Oolyons (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is, you are the only one demanding this removal, and despite rivers of text you have yet to produce a reliable source that denies he was an influence on her, in contrast to the sources that say he was. Rand issued no such denial, and as has already been pointed out, "influence" does not imply complete agreement, so there is no issue of fairness or distortion or lies. You can post follow-ups to your own comments a thousand times, but that does not create more support for your position. --RL0919 (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that you have me at a disadvantage, RL. You seem to have access to information that I do not about the existing consensus on this specific topic. Since it has never been suggested that "influence" requires "complete agreement" (otherwise none of the others would qualify, either, for instance), I'm at a loss as to what the discussion and editorial standards really are around here. Your best source, for what they are, actually just disappeared, and it doesn't seem to matter. In any case, I will say no more. Oolyons (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is, you are the only one demanding this removal, and despite rivers of text you have yet to produce a reliable source that denies he was an influence on her, in contrast to the sources that say he was. Rand issued no such denial, and as has already been pointed out, "influence" does not imply complete agreement, so there is no issue of fairness or distortion or lies. You can post follow-ups to your own comments a thousand times, but that does not create more support for your position. --RL0919 (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't the reference in the text enough -- and better? Can't we remove him from the list of major influences, simply given the nebulous quality of the argued-for influence, since he is mentioned in the text in greater detail? Oolyons (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- I find it curious, then, that she completely retreated from her assertion of influence when it came time to publish. Now, in fact, its REMOVAL from her text is powerful evidence of the opposite. She went from calling him an "influence" in the earlier version to calling him merely someone Rand "looked on more favorably" than Hayek. That's a serious change in Burns's view. And, of course, you don't carry such a copy around, but, of course, I was arguing from Rand's actual denial of Mises as a philosophical influence, not any silence, and against a notion that is both baseless and wrong, namely a philosophical influence. I accept your distinction, but it must be made in the text if we are to avoid the issues raised here. Rand was a novelist and philosopher, but Mises was neither an influence on her philosophy -- something Rand overtly denied and for which you can cite no clear source whatever -- nor her literature (as Hugo and Dosteovsky, etc.). The secondary sources themselves (like Burns, in any version) stress the vast differences between the two thinkers, as well. At best, he was an "influence," as Burns writes, in that Mises' analysis "matched" her own understanding and that he "provided support" for Rand's political position with his economics. We must also note IF we are to suggest him as an influence, that they had HUGE differences in all the areas that Rand felt important, philosophically. Thus, if he is to be listed as any kind of influence, fairness to Rand's ideas dictates that all of these clear distinctions be made or we will be distorting the secondary sources you cite which claim this (or even ones that formerly claimed it.). Given the context, vagueness here is distortion. And we must avoid implying something that Rand overtly, and quite hotly (if we read her notes on Mises) denied. Merely calling him an influence without qualification is a lie. Oolyons (talk) 14:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- A little bit of further browsing solves the mystery: The text in question is Burns' PhD dissertation, which bears the same name as the book she later based on it, but does not have identical text. And yes, I have the hardcover book, although I don't carry it around with me everywhere I travel, hence the use of Google Books for convenience. To my knowledge all citations are against the hardcover text, but you are welcome to review each and every citation in the article if you wish, and update them to reference the dissertation if needed. That would have more value than trying to argue from silences. --RL0919 (talk) 05:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have other references in the Ayn Rand article, or others, been based on this text as alleged citations of Burns? Oolyons (talk) 02:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I found that same quote doing a Google Search, too, but the text provided is NOT the same as the text from Burns' book, which I have accurately quoted. Do you have a hard copy of the real book? Compare the book, the hardcover, if you will, from the Table of Contents (utterly different CHAPTER TITLES), forward. Compare the text. It is different. Burns has endnotes, this text has real "footnotes" on the bottom of the page, for example. Try, if you will, to find the quote in question in a hard copy of the actual book. Page 77 discusses Paterson, but not Mises at all. So, no, Burns does not say that, from what I can tell. Not from the hard copy of the book I am holding in my hands right now. I'm not sure what it is they have put under that title, but the text is not Burns'. (Whoever did say that did not say how much "more" up from zero he was going, either.) Moreover, you misconstrue my position altogether, in any case. And, as I have indicated, this can easily be solved by saying that Rand "admired," "promoted," even "found support" in Mises' work, just not calling him an "influence." Oolyons (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Ayn Rand's view of
In regard to Ayn Rand's views on Kant, I have deleted the following aside comment: "...although Objectivist philosophers George Walsh and Fred Seddon have argued that she misinterpreted Kant and exaggerated their differences." Since this is irrelevant to Ayn Rand's own view of Kant, it should not be included. I will also note, as an addendum, that the two men referenced are not widely recognized as "Objectivists." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew3024 (talk • contribs) 07:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- I certainly agree with not calling those men "Objectivist philosophers," since (as Andrew3024 pointed out) they are not generally regarded as such by others who definitely are Objectivists. As to Rand's views on Kant, critics who are of a "mainstream" persuasion tend to be cited by some editors, in Misplaced Pages articles that mention her views, as claiming that Rand misunderstood, misinterpreted, and/or distorted Kant's actual views. From my own knowledge I think she understood what Kant was saying better than most of those critics. And in general, some editors seem to think that it is important for the public to be warned off of Rand's ideas, so don't be surprised if the deleted text gets reinstated. — DAGwyn (talk) 10:10, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- Including the views of Walsh and Seddon also merely invites (or requires) a discussion of the opinion of those who do think Rand understood Kant, and this would be an unnecessary and wasteful tangent. It is all irrelevant to Rand's own view of Kant. Oolyons (talk) 20:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is not the responsibility of a Misplaced Pages article to discourse on every back-and-forth detail of how a given author is criticized and defended, but we should summarize the significant views, including any significant criticisms. The inclusion of a criticism does not require inclusion of a response, unless there are secondary sources of equivalent significance making the counterargument. If there are reliable secondary sources defending Rand's view of Kant, then we could summarize that fact in brief terms to go alongside the criticism, without an extended discourse about either. The criticism is presented in less than 20 words. --RL0919 (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Right. But this is not, in my view, a "significant" criticism: both writers are still largely in agreement with most of Rand's own philosophical positions; "neo-Objectivists", we would have to say. And both writers, Seddon and (the late) Walsh, argue that Kant is arguing for a position similar to Rand's own. Wouldn't that be something important to mention, that is, if we are to include this at all? Not adding this would be a distortion of their "criticism", for what it is, don't you think? Their own work makes clear that each writer thinks extremely highly of Rand's thought generally. Oolyons (talk) 22:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
"Most Academics and Literary Critics"
The introductory material asserts that "reception for Rand's fiction from literary critics was largely negative, and most academics have ignored or rejected her philosophy." First, the cited source for this (Sciabarra's 'Russian Radical', page 1) does not say what is alleged here. The source says only that "academics have often dismissed" her philosophy, not that "most" do or have. The source says ~ nothing ~ about her reception from "literary critics" at all. We should stick to the source's actual assertions. Second, I have searched and been unable to find any survey of academics or literary critics about Rand's thought. In any case, none is actually cited here or contained within the cited material. I would add that the material I have found shows that the reception by contemporary critics of her work was mixed. Some extreme praise can be found in places like The New York Times Book Review (which called The Fountainhead "masterful" and Rand a writer of "great power") and from noteworthy book reviewers such as John Chamberlain (who praised Atlas Shrugged), along with high praise privately offered for specific works by the likes of H. L. Mencken (who recommended We the Living as "a really excellent piece of work"), Frank Lloyd Wright (who reported being "astonish" by Rand's "grasp" of "the ins and outs" of the profession of architecture, and who called The Fountainhead's thesis "the great one"), and Ludwig von Mises (who praised Atlas Shrugged as "a cogent analysis of the evils that plague our society".) (Berliner, Michael, ed., Letters of Ayn Rand, New York: Dutton, p. 10, 112, and, "Letter" to Rand, dated Jan. 23, 1958, quoted in Hülsmann, Jorg Guido, Mises: The Last Knight of Liberalism, 2007, Ludwig von Mises Institute, p. 996.) Numerically, the reviews seem mixed, as well. Her Broadway hit, Night of January 16th was praised by Walter Winchell, among others. Rand is reported to have been disappointed with most of the positive reviews of her work, but, nevertheless, there were a number of them. Since there are also a growing number of academics who do admire Rand, and even a growing number who identify as "Objectivists," as well as an increase in serious publications about Rand (a fact actually noted by the cited source), this should be mentioned, as well. If a credible source can be found for the original claims, that is another matter. But until then, these assertions should be removed. Oolyons (talk) 23:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- The cited source (C. M. Sciabarra, 'Ayn Rand: the Russian Radical', 1995) does, however, say that Rand's work "inspired passionate responses," and (on page 2) notes the "growth in Rand scholarship and influence..." These can be mentioned in a neutral way. Oolyons (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since just a partial list of ~ noteworthy ~ scholars and academics who have been deeply and significantly influenced by Rand includes: Allan Gotthelf, Edwin A. Locke, Harry Binswanger, Tara Smith, George Reisman, George H. Smith, David Kelley, Edith Efron, Robert Hessen, Martin Anderson, Douglas Den Uyl, Douglas Rasmussen, Tibor Machan, Andrew Bernstein and James G. Lennox, the existence of such scholars cannot be ignored. Oolyons (talk) 00:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- The cited source for this does not indicate the number of academics or scholars, or the group's comparative size, e.g., "small," or otherwise. The source does mention its noteworthy "growth." Why was this changed to "notable"? While it is true, it is not from the source.Oolyons (talk) 22:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since just a partial list of ~ noteworthy ~ scholars and academics who have been deeply and significantly influenced by Rand includes: Allan Gotthelf, Edwin A. Locke, Harry Binswanger, Tara Smith, George Reisman, George H. Smith, David Kelley, Edith Efron, Robert Hessen, Martin Anderson, Douglas Den Uyl, Douglas Rasmussen, Tibor Machan, Andrew Bernstein and James G. Lennox, the existence of such scholars cannot be ignored. Oolyons (talk) 00:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The problem as I see it, is that all it takes to be counted as a "scholar" is direct association with Ayn Rand. If you click on these links, you quickly find that almost every single one of them were either members of Ayn Rand's circle or part of the Objectivist movement.
You'll also find that each and every one of the article's you linked to have been beefed up and heavily inflated by none other than fellow Ayn Rand disciples to give the impression that her influence is stronger than it actually is.
--69.125.144.46 (talk) 20:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- No, you're wrong. For example, Tibor Machan was no friend or student of Rand, however much his ideas are influenced by her. He associated with those hostile to Rand during her lifetime and was never part of her group. And he is among the most widely published philosophers of our time. Douglas Rasmussen and Douglas Den Uyl never knew Rand, nor were they ever part of her circle, and they, too, associated only with her enemies while Rand was alive. Yet, both of these have also been ~ profoundly ~ influenced by Rand. None of those three were ever part of the "movement," either, anymore than George H. Smith was ever part of Rand's circle or "movement." Someone like Tara Smith (no relation to the last) never knew Rand but she did study from Rand's students. And her recent work defending Rand has been published by no less than Cambridge University Press. So, no, the listed scholars are all over the map on that question. There are tenured and multiple emeritus professors listed. Someone like Allan Gotthelf is, in fact, widely recognized as one of the world's foremost authorities on Aristotle. Period. Edwin A. Locke, as well, is widely considered a leader and pioneer in his field. Martin Anderson was a chief adviser to President Ronald Reagan. So, again, no, these are serious writers with biographies that need no "beefing up."Oolyons (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
“Ayn Rand was a writer of no value whatsoever, whether aesthetic or intellectual. The Tea Party deserves her, but the rest of us do not. It is not less than obscene that any educational institution that relies even in part on public funds should ask students to consider her work. We are threatened these days by vicious mindlessness and this is one of its manifestations.” -Harold Bloom, Sterling Professor of the Humanities and English at Yale University, quoted here: http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/27/ayn-rand-the-tea-partys-miscast-matriarch MBVECO (talk) 19:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)MBVECO
- One must doubt whether Bloom has the first clue about the substance of Rand's philosophy, as he's shown no evidence of it to date. He is one man, and a controversial figure himself. I have cited a number of scholars who are leaders in their fields -- and important works -- that think just the reverse. That these exist is what counts -- Rand must be treated seriously. Bertrand Russell dismissed Nietzsche as being utterly worthless and unserious, too, and I suspect Nietzsche will be remembered even longer than Bertie. And I've heard much the same about Bloom himself from some parties.Oolyons (talk) 00:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The fact is, the negative major reviews of Rand's novels overwhelmed the relatively few supportive minor ones. (I looked them up decades ago.) And the academic community for several decades in fact did almost entirely disparage Objectivism, to the point of actively discouraging students from studying it and penalizing those who did. You will find practically no mention of Rand in any professional journal during that long stretch of time. Perhaps we need a better source to cite for these aspects. It is important to get this right, because the professional response to her work had a significant impact on Rand's outlook and subsequent procedures; some have called her denouncements of contemporary writing and professional philosophy "vitriolic," and it contributed to the closed nature of her circle of admirers, maybe even to the periodic fallings-out and "purges." — DAGwyn (talk) 05:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Ethical and Rational Egoist
The articles on both rational egoism and ethical egoism should be linked, as both have discussions of her ideas, and she was both. Oolyons (talk) 00:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Academic rejection
Shouldn't the introduction include some sort of information on how her works have been largely discredited, dismissed, and rejected by just about every University's philosophy department on planet earth? While I realize we cannot come right out and say it, it should be made more clear that Ayn Rand was a pseudo-philosopher, not a real one. She essentially asked academics of her time to abandon hundreds of years of philosophical progress in favor of her ideas. More specifically, she remains the only modern day thinker who failed to move beyond the rationalist/empiricist roadblock that Immanuel Kant solved in the late 1700's.
This should be in the main paragraph. I realize wikipedia has a STRONG libertarian bias, but you guys shouldn't be making it that easy to prove that claim to be undeniably true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.144.46 (talk) 19:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, although your estimate of her philosophy is irrelevant to this matter. byelf2007 (talk) 20 February 2012
- Since there are "two sides to every coin," the above statement can be taken as a negative judgment on academic philosophy, rather than on Rand. Men like Arthur Schopenhauer, Karl Jaspers, Walter Kaufmann, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Søren Kierkegaard, Jean-Paul Sartre and many other creative thinkers and writers had a very low opinion about academic philosophy.Lestrade (talk) 02:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
- but they are all taught in major universities and including in the various academic dictionaries and encyclopaedias of philosophy. Rand is not, in fact she only appears to be taught where Randian foundations fund the position. ----Snowded 04:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
What matters is their evaluation of academic philosophy. If academic philosophy is not thought to be a worthy source of judgment regarding ideas, then its opinion about Rand is not so important. From a certain viewpoint, many of the thousands of professors of philosophy may, themselves, be regarded as pseudo-philosophers.Lestrade (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
- However, as a matter of fact, Rand is taught at major universities and by non-Objectivsts. I was ~ required ~ to read samples of her work in both university ethics and political theory classes by hostile professors who took her seriously. Also, Rand has not been "discredited" or refuted in any way -- PhDs and professors have observed that Rand's critics seem to invariably and crudely misstate her positions whenever they attempt to take her on. Whether it's Whittaker Chambers in the 1950s, Robert Nozick in the 1970s, or Christopher Hitchens in the 2000s, Rand's critics fail to correctly state her ideas in the first instance, according to Objectivists. And they cite specifics. Some fairly simple and basic ones, too. This is also the thrust of the Objectivist critique of the recent biographies by Burns and Heller. They misrepresent her thought. Also, I am unaware of any actual survey of academics about Rand. Just guess work. In any case, the fact that most philosophers reject the ideas of, say, Leibnitz ("best of all possible worlds"), does not mean that he isn't to be treated seriously. Nor is there cause to cite such "rejection," even if such could be located, except from an overt hostility to Leibnitz. And, of course, Rand rejected and transcended empiricism and rationalism far more radically than Kant ever did. Even the critics who think Rand got Kant wrong, i.e., Seddon and Walsh, simply interpret Kant as saying pretty much what Rand said(!) Oolyons (talk) 19:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- At least two of the cited sources have been misrepresented. I will check on the rest as I have time. Rasmussen and Den Uyl (1984), page 36 is actually from an essay by Wallace Matson, and it only mentions Rand's own "separation from the mainstream," not the mainstream's separation from her, as it were. Also, Gottelf (2000) on page 1 says only that Rand "still gets little attention" from academics (more than a decade ago, and that decade has been significantly different), not that she has been rejected by them. This is very different, indeed. I'll keep checking, but those two citations must be removed. Oolyons (talk) 20:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- The sources cited for an "academic rejection" of Rand's thought do not actually mention such a rejection. I've indicated (above) that both Rasumussen/Den Uyl (1984) and Gotthelf (2000) say nothing like this, but neither does Gladstein (1999), who says the opposite, and, indeed, she indicates that "assessments" of Rand's work by other writers have "grown exponentially" since Rand's death (page 2). Gladstein does say that discussions of Rand's work are usually "highly charged" (also page 2), but it mentions no rejection. I've checked all but one of the cited sources. None of them so far says anything like what is being claimed about an "academic rejection." Until specific quotations from a good source are provided, this whole sentence must be removed -- both because there is no such source so far, but also because it is inappropriately non-neutral and speculative. For example, do any such surveys actually exist?Oolyons (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
You're referring to evaluations from relative newcomers. If you had been active in, and attentive to, academia during the 1960s, by which time Rand's major ideas had all been published (except for her theory of concepts), you'd have seen a different situation from the one that we might have today.
Much of the work of professional philosophers during that time rightly should have been, but seldom was, considered unworthy of the profession. Consequently, workers in other professions generally considered contemporary philosophy as foolish and irrelevant. (Ironically, this allowed bad ideas to gain more traction than they would have if they had been taken seriously.) Just as one might reasonably consider modern physics to have taken a wrong turn along the way, leading to absurdities like "dark matter" being accepted as mainstream, Rand considered that modern philosophy had taken a wrong turn, partly by over-reverence for authority (particularly Kant), leading to bad social consequences. Over time, she cited a considerable amount of evidence in support of that notion.
Remnants of the former mainstream academic attitude are still widespread today, including much of 69.125.144.46's original posting at the top of this section. Oolyons is correct in his observation that Rand's critics have exhibited a tendency to misstate her ideas. A possible explanation might be that they are so invested in their existing world-view that their emotional response to a significant challenge to that world-view is to devise too-facile reinforcements of their existing beliefs, instead of careful consideration of the ideas. — DAGwyn (talk) 06:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I feel strongly that Rand should be labelled as a pseudo-philosopher. She did not achieve a recognized status of mastery in the art of philosophy during her time, and in fact took much from Nietzsche and Aristotle, simply twisting the ideas as she saw fit. In any case, her "Objectivism" is more in line with an ideology than a philosophical system, and should be properly labelled. It is a bad equivocation to mix Rand's thoughts with true philosophy. So some changes to the article should be made. Pseudo-philosopher is one more fitting label, but "thinker" can also be used. In any case, Rand was certainly not a philosopher, and does not deserve to be credited as one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.24.167 (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- Your strong feelings are not relevant. Reliable sources are. This objection has been made a hundred times and has always been refuted with argumentation (not just assertions). There are many reliable sources that say Rand is a philosopher and created a philosophy. There are very few reliable sources that say Rand is not a philosopher and did not create a philosophy. If this is incorrect, you can actually make a case and not just make assertions. You also should not edit the article to correspond with your opinion on such an important matter as this without first explaining your case on talk. Byelf2007 (talk) 28 March 2012
- I am going to gently remind everyone that arguing about whether Rand is or is not a philosopher leads to *madness* and ARBCOM. This has been settled, and there are extensive sources backing up the claim that she is one. TallNapoleon (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
There are no credible sources that say Rand is a philosopher. A credible source is a master in the art of philosophy. The general consensus among actual philosophers is that she is not a true philosopher. The people who claim that Rand is a philosopher have no authority. It is like saying a motorcycle is a car because a great politician or lawyer says so, when the mechanic will correctly say that the motorcycle is a motorcycle, and a car is a car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.128.213 (talk) 20:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
- Terrible and unconvincing analogy. Besides, we already have this pretty well sourced. Whether you find these sources "credible" is irrelevant.--Atlan (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
- TallNapoleon is right to say that in this lies madness. However Armcom did not settle the content issue or the policy issue, it managed an issue over behaviour; namely edit warring, meat puppetry etc. etc. etc.. There are clearly some sources that say she is a philosopher, but there is no mention of her as such in a large body of material where, if she was, you would expect to find it. The only wikipedia policy which comes near on this is WP:WEIGHT but the work through the list of philosophical dictionaries and encyclopaedias where she is not even named is problematic. The argument that there are few sources saying she is not a philosopher is problematic. Scientists deny creationism because it has traction in the US, NLP has sources to show it is a pseudocience because people have taken it seriously. Rand on the other hand has simply been completely and utterly ignored outside her fan base, or those universities receiving grants from foundations associated with her name. I agree the analogy is unconvincing, but so is the statement that this is well sourced. ----Snowded 23:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
- In addition to the sources cited in the article currently, she's listed in multiple reference works on philosophy, such as The Dictionary of Modern American Philosophers (Thoemmes Continuum, 2005), American Philosophers, 1950-2000 (Gale, 2003), Women Philosophers: A Bio-Critical Source Book (Greenwood, 1989). Then there are other types of sources, such as the multiple recent biographies that call her a philosopher. Are there sources where she isn't mentioned or isn't called a philosopher? Definitely. But neglect is not denial, and denial is what is needed to counterbalance the existence of multiple positive sources. This has always been the problem for those who want preclude use of the term. Academic sources just aren't doing this. If you dive into middlebrow commercial sources, such as magazine articles, you can find an occasional explicit denial. But any such finds would be balanced against the hundreds of similar-quality sources that casually refer to Rand as a philosopher, including a number of highly critical works that preclude any argument that only "fans" are referencing her as such. --RL0919 (talk) 02:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I say its an issue for wikipedia policy, in this case I think neglect is de facto denial per my argument above. To ask a serious philosopher to write an article saying she isn't, when few if any take her as one is asking a lot. Given her claims one would expect biographies, but when I last checked none of the major international dictionaries or encyclopaedias of philosophy list her (I think there is one online US one which also has articles authored by champions - i.e. free format contribution rather than considered). Now they do list minor and controversial figures. I'd be interested to see the text of the Routledge reference by the way. I did check that along with others a few years ago and accept that it may have changed. So yes there are some references, but not many and not where you would expect them to be. The policy issue around this affects a lot of fringe issues and its a gap in policy. Under one interpretation she is simply because she is called that in some reliable sources. In another interpretation the fact that she isn't mentioned where she should be is also significant. While I think we may have to live with the former interpretation I am not prepared to simply let the statement by Atlan above stand without some rebuttal.----Snowded 09:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- Likewise the idea that she "does not appear where you would expect her to" (ie, in encyclopaedias of philosophy, or in encyclopaedias as "a philosopher") needs some rebuttal. Routelege is viewable on gBooks, but there's also Britannica, Stanford, Oregon State and the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (this is probably the one you mention above - I don't know much about it but it "seems legit" - ie, it claims to be peer reviewed and the editors are the heads of philosophy at UT and California State; has spawned the usual conga-line of left wing bloggers outraged that it considers Rand a "philosopher", but as discussed at great length above, that's generally to be expected). Presumably this won't end the madness, but it should get the statement pretty comprehensively past any objections on the basis of WP:V, WP:RS or WP:REDFLAG.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm dubious about the Internet Encyclopedia, as far as I can see they in effect take essays rather than taking an editorial approach and to some extend that is true of the Stnford one (look at the credits at the bottom). Routelege also seems multi-authored but I would accept that as one. I don't see her in Oxford or Cambridge published books, or in the various histories of political philosophy I have on my shelves. Any recognition of her is very very US centric and a minority even there. As I said above I think this is a policy issue and I remain disappointed that Arbcom did not take it up. The way things work any reference is enough. ----Snowded 09:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's worth noting that the issue of whether Rand is mentioned in works of reference on philosophy doesn't in itself settle the question of whether she is a philosopher or not. The Penguin Dictionary of Philosophy edited by Thomas Mautner has an entry on Rand, but it's short and very negative: "American writer of Russian origin. Her so-called philosophy of objectivism condemns altruism and extols selfishness and individual achievement." That could be read as a denial that Rand is a philosopher, although it's not 100% explicit about it. I personally think Rand is a philosopher, but if there are reliable sources that say otherwise, it should be fine to quote them. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- The 2005 Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (take note Snowded, Oxford!) has a similarly dismissive entry referring to her "extreme and simplistic views" (which they nonetheless call her "philosophy"). But again no explicit denial that she was a philosopher. I suspect such denials would be more forthcoming if academics could agree upon criteria for being a "philosopher" that would exclude Rand without also pushing out Arendt, Camus, Emerson, Nietzsche, and/or assorted ancients. --RL0919 (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just checked and she is not in my 1996 edition or in the more recent Oxford Companion to Philosophy (2005) while all of those you name appear without similar qualification. The entry in that later volume for Objectivism just contrasts it with Subjectivism and makes no mention. I 'd be interested to check the reasons for inclusion in the 2005 edition - was that edited by Simon B as before? Again however it shows the pattern, any serious acknowledgement is grudging at best and we need to make sure that is properly covered in the article. ----Snowded 02:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think you mistook my point, which was (for once) about the outside world, not Misplaced Pages. If someone writing in a peer-reviewed source were to explicitly say that Rand is not a philosopher, they would be challenged to present criteria for applying the title. Criteria that would exclude Rand (beyond purely subjective ones) would likely be controversial because they would exclude one or more others who are widely accepted as philosophers. So they don't go down that path. That's my suspicion, anyway. But coming back to Misplaced Pages, to say that sources are "grudging at best" when they call her a philosopher, we would need sources that say this, not the interpretations of WP editors. --RL0919 (talk) 18:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just checked and she is not in my 1996 edition or in the more recent Oxford Companion to Philosophy (2005) while all of those you name appear without similar qualification. The entry in that later volume for Objectivism just contrasts it with Subjectivism and makes no mention. I 'd be interested to check the reasons for inclusion in the 2005 edition - was that edited by Simon B as before? Again however it shows the pattern, any serious acknowledgement is grudging at best and we need to make sure that is properly covered in the article. ----Snowded 02:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- The 2005 Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (take note Snowded, Oxford!) has a similarly dismissive entry referring to her "extreme and simplistic views" (which they nonetheless call her "philosophy"). But again no explicit denial that she was a philosopher. I suspect such denials would be more forthcoming if academics could agree upon criteria for being a "philosopher" that would exclude Rand without also pushing out Arendt, Camus, Emerson, Nietzsche, and/or assorted ancients. --RL0919 (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's worth noting that the issue of whether Rand is mentioned in works of reference on philosophy doesn't in itself settle the question of whether she is a philosopher or not. The Penguin Dictionary of Philosophy edited by Thomas Mautner has an entry on Rand, but it's short and very negative: "American writer of Russian origin. Her so-called philosophy of objectivism condemns altruism and extols selfishness and individual achievement." That could be read as a denial that Rand is a philosopher, although it's not 100% explicit about it. I personally think Rand is a philosopher, but if there are reliable sources that say otherwise, it should be fine to quote them. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm dubious about the Internet Encyclopedia, as far as I can see they in effect take essays rather than taking an editorial approach and to some extend that is true of the Stnford one (look at the credits at the bottom). Routelege also seems multi-authored but I would accept that as one. I don't see her in Oxford or Cambridge published books, or in the various histories of political philosophy I have on my shelves. Any recognition of her is very very US centric and a minority even there. As I said above I think this is a policy issue and I remain disappointed that Arbcom did not take it up. The way things work any reference is enough. ----Snowded 09:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- Likewise the idea that she "does not appear where you would expect her to" (ie, in encyclopaedias of philosophy, or in encyclopaedias as "a philosopher") needs some rebuttal. Routelege is viewable on gBooks, but there's also Britannica, Stanford, Oregon State and the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (this is probably the one you mention above - I don't know much about it but it "seems legit" - ie, it claims to be peer reviewed and the editors are the heads of philosophy at UT and California State; has spawned the usual conga-line of left wing bloggers outraged that it considers Rand a "philosopher", but as discussed at great length above, that's generally to be expected). Presumably this won't end the madness, but it should get the statement pretty comprehensively past any objections on the basis of WP:V, WP:RS or WP:REDFLAG.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I say its an issue for wikipedia policy, in this case I think neglect is de facto denial per my argument above. To ask a serious philosopher to write an article saying she isn't, when few if any take her as one is asking a lot. Given her claims one would expect biographies, but when I last checked none of the major international dictionaries or encyclopaedias of philosophy list her (I think there is one online US one which also has articles authored by champions - i.e. free format contribution rather than considered). Now they do list minor and controversial figures. I'd be interested to see the text of the Routledge reference by the way. I did check that along with others a few years ago and accept that it may have changed. So yes there are some references, but not many and not where you would expect them to be. The policy issue around this affects a lot of fringe issues and its a gap in policy. Under one interpretation she is simply because she is called that in some reliable sources. In another interpretation the fact that she isn't mentioned where she should be is also significant. While I think we may have to live with the former interpretation I am not prepared to simply let the statement by Atlan above stand without some rebuttal.----Snowded 09:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- In addition to the sources cited in the article currently, she's listed in multiple reference works on philosophy, such as The Dictionary of Modern American Philosophers (Thoemmes Continuum, 2005), American Philosophers, 1950-2000 (Gale, 2003), Women Philosophers: A Bio-Critical Source Book (Greenwood, 1989). Then there are other types of sources, such as the multiple recent biographies that call her a philosopher. Are there sources where she isn't mentioned or isn't called a philosopher? Definitely. But neglect is not denial, and denial is what is needed to counterbalance the existence of multiple positive sources. This has always been the problem for those who want preclude use of the term. Academic sources just aren't doing this. If you dive into middlebrow commercial sources, such as magazine articles, you can find an occasional explicit denial. But any such finds would be balanced against the hundreds of similar-quality sources that casually refer to Rand as a philosopher, including a number of highly critical works that preclude any argument that only "fans" are referencing her as such. --RL0919 (talk) 02:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources which claim her to be a philosopher are in any way authoritative. People fail to see author bias in the very specific examples chosen. Also, various collections and databases may refer to her as a philosopher, but again, the general philosophic community does not accept her as one. The only people giving her the title of philosopher are the fans, those paid off by the followers of Rand, and the casual professors who hold no real authority in the world of philosophy. Give her all her other achievements, we don't care about those; but Ayn Rand certainly deserves no place in the world of philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.24.167 (talk) 01:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, in your opinion. On the other side we have close to a dozen RSs, which you dismiss as fan pieces. You may not like her philosophy; is it really a smart move to try to declare that it isn't one?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 02:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- As an aside I'm going to bet dollars to donuts that our anonymous interlocutor is our old friend Edward Nilges, aka banned user User:Spinoza1111. If you are Edward, please, leave us in peace. If you aren't, you have my sincerest apologies, though I do recommend registering for an account. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:11, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Not that I expect this to make much of a difference, as I am sure the people running this show are die-hard supporters of Rand, but after much digging, I was able to find specific examples of a renowned professor of philosophy denouncing Rand to a degree. The problem with finding even the minute scraps of denouncement is that Rand is not taken seriously by the greater philosophic community, so no philosopher has yet written anything specifically rejecting her. She is typically rejected by default among real philosophers. In any case, the bit of verifiable and real rejection comes from Louis Pojman, in his book "Ethics: discovering right and wrong, 6th edition" on pages 90-91. If any other philosopher chooses to write more about Rand, I shall bring up the new evidence. I am attempting even now to get more professional philosophers to write about their thoughts on this question. When her writing first came out, it was considered quite bad and was almost universally rejected, which should have been a good indicator that she was not a philosopher. More recently, people discovered her work and began labeling her as such, despite no such acceptance in the philosophic community. I believe her initial rejection should have been enough, but now it has gotten to the point where the pros should really get involved. If I can get some of the top philosophers out there to write about her, and if they choose to write favorably about her, then I will drop my opinion and accept her as a philosopher. Furthermore, if such approval happens, then this debate will finally be truly over, and she can unequivocally be counted as a philosopher. A lot of "ifs," but the only way to settle this. Would this be acceptable to the Objectivists out there? And no, I am not this Edward character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.24.167 (talk) 06:49, 9 April 2012
- One negative doesn't eliminate the positives. However it does verify the opposition to her being labelled a philosopher. To include this as a particular criticism of Rand is about as far as you could go with that ref, or indeed if any more "top philosophers" added their name to a similar statement.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- Except Pojman doesn't say Rand isn't a philosopher. Rather, he criticizes her ethical theory. There are two different questions here: 1) whether philosophers have criticized Rands ideas, and 2) whether they have denied that she deserves the label 'philosopher'. The first is definitely true and provable from reliable sources. The main issues on that front are how much criticism to include here vs. the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article, and which examples. Add Pojman to the list of possibilities. The second is what has been disputed in the last several paragraphs above, and unfortunately Pojman doesn't add anything new there. --RL0919 (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Literary reception
There has been an effort recently (and others in the past) to remove a passage from the lead that characterizes the literary reception for Rand's fiction as being predominantly negative. The current wording says it "was not well received by literary critics". An editor was recently blocked for edit warring over this. The sentence was previously uncited (as is common for summary text in the lead section), but because it was challenged, I moved a citation up from the body that directly addresses this. It is from The New Ayn Rand Companion by Mimi Reisel Gladstein. Gladstein is a respected academic and an expert on Rand as a literary figure. I quote from the cited material, which is a book from an academic publisher: "Over the years, there have been those few reviewers who have appreciated not only Rand’s writing style, but also her message. Their number is far outweighed by reviewers who have been everything from hysterically hostile to merely uncomprehending. The antagonism of critical reaction grew in direct proportion to the enthusiasm of the reading public." This is probably the single best overall summary because it is short and comprehensive, but other sources could be cited. For example, Anne Heller's biography of Rand describes the reviews for Atlas Shrugged: "They were not merely critical, they were hateful and dishonest." Does anyone want to challenge with contrary sources? --RL0919 (talk) 22:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm just a passerby on this, but if the reviews were "hateful and dishonest", doesn't that make them unfair? And in such a case shouldn't "unfairness" be mentioned? Depending, of course, if this is a widespread opinion among experts. Δρ.Κ. 22:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any problems with the material that was removed, and I think restoring it was justified. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 22:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- Regarding Dr.K's question, I couldn't say that particular detail is "a widespread opinion among experts", although I understand why Heller said it. It's also specific to the reviews of one book. For contrast, Heller says the reviews for We the Living were "mixed", and her description of the reviews for The Fountainhead is, "Reviewers were hostile or, at best, bewildered." One thing that makes Gladstein especially useful as a source on this is that she summarizes Rand's reception overall, whereas many other sources discuss it book-by-book. --RL0919 (talk) 22:44, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you RL0919 for the clarification. I agree with your approach based on your explanation. Δρ.Κ. 22:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Kant
Per this edit deleting a sentence to "trim", since this is not a significant trim and yet I find those words very much enlightening regarding not only her position towords kant (that to) but her attitude towards philosophy in general, so I think it's of interest to the reader and should not have been deleted. --MeUser42 (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- I humbly suggest that if you want to learn something about Rand's attitude to Kant, you look elsewhere. I stand by my removal of that content - it is sufficient to quote her calling Kant a "monster", the "most evil man in history" stuff is pandering to sensationalism and serves no useful purpose. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 23:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- This is indeed sensationalism, and conveys to the reader (as it did to me) valuebal information about her approach. Since this is only a few words (5), the value of the trimming for the sake of trimming is lesser, and since I found it valueble indeed, it should be left in the stable version before your edit. --MeUser42 (talk) 02:53, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it's only a few words, but in principle it's wrong to use two quotes from Rand saying how much she hated Kant when the same point can be made with only one quotation. We should strive for economy, and excessive use of quotations makes for a poor article. Snowded has restored the "most evil man" quotation, but fortunately he has added it instead of, rather than in addition to, the other quotation. I disagree with restoring the most evil man remark, but not enough to consider it worth reverting. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 04:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- I’d prefer to read her objections to Kant instead of her flamboyant and hyperbolic rhetoric. Why even include “monster” unless its to ridicule her rhetoric? What’s her objection to Kant's ideas? Jason from nyc (talk) 16:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's an encyclopedia article about Rand's life and work as a whole, so any coverage of this particular should stay brief. My impression is that the "most evil man in history" quote is somewhat commonly used in secondary sources to illustrate her view of Kant, more so than "monster". But that's just an impression, not something I've seriously researched. --RL0919 (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Deciding which quote to use should be a matter of editorial judgment; I don't think it should be decided based on which quote is more commonly used. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with PoC that one quote on the subject of Kant is enough. The "most evil man in history" seems the more revealing of the two (my editorial judgement :) Sunray (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2012 (UT
- I'd agree if we explain what she means. The references explain her assessment. Let's add after "most evil man in history" because (in her view) Kant’s philosophy, that reality is unknowable in itself, lays the foundation for the subjectivism and relativism that followed. Then delete the rest of the line about Walsh's and Seddon's assessment of Rand's interpretation of Kant (which isn't currently stated) but leave the references to Walsh and Seddon. If one leaves only "monster" and "most evil man" it degenerates into name-calling and makes the article gossipy. Let's summarize for the reader the sources so that they don't have to read them for themselves (like I just had to). Isn't that the job of the editors? Jason from nyc (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with PoC that one quote on the subject of Kant is enough. The "most evil man in history" seems the more revealing of the two (my editorial judgement :) Sunray (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2012 (UT
- Deciding which quote to use should be a matter of editorial judgment; I don't think it should be decided based on which quote is more commonly used. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's an encyclopedia article about Rand's life and work as a whole, so any coverage of this particular should stay brief. My impression is that the "most evil man in history" quote is somewhat commonly used in secondary sources to illustrate her view of Kant, more so than "monster". But that's just an impression, not something I've seriously researched. --RL0919 (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- I’d prefer to read her objections to Kant instead of her flamboyant and hyperbolic rhetoric. Why even include “monster” unless its to ridicule her rhetoric? What’s her objection to Kant's ideas? Jason from nyc (talk) 16:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it's only a few words, but in principle it's wrong to use two quotes from Rand saying how much she hated Kant when the same point can be made with only one quotation. We should strive for economy, and excessive use of quotations makes for a poor article. Snowded has restored the "most evil man" quotation, but fortunately he has added it instead of, rather than in addition to, the other quotation. I disagree with restoring the most evil man remark, but not enough to consider it worth reverting. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 04:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
- This is indeed sensationalism, and conveys to the reader (as it did to me) valuebal information about her approach. Since this is only a few words (5), the value of the trimming for the sake of trimming is lesser, and since I found it valueble indeed, it should be left in the stable version before your edit. --MeUser42 (talk) 02:53, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Did Rand Collect Social Security or Welfare?
I've read several places on the Internet that author Scott McConnel claims in his book "100 Voices: An Oral History of Ayn Rand" that Rand collected Social Security or Welfare or both to pay for lung sugery. McConnel quotes Eva Pryor, a consultant for Rand's law firm, as saying she helped Rand acquire the assistance under an assumed name (Ann O'Connor). However none of the websites seem reputable and none provide page numbers. Is there any truth to this? Can anybody shed some light? Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Some of it is true. The book is a collection of interviews, so McConnell doesn't claim anything directly about this, but Eva Pryor was one of the interviewees. Pryor says she was dispatched by Rand's lawyers to talk to Rand about signing up for Social Security and Medicare benefits. Rand wasn't going to apply, but "after several meetings and arguments" she gave Pryor power of attorney and Pryor did the rest. Pryor says this was in 1976, over a year after Rand's lung surgery, so it wouldn't have been paying for that. There is nothing in the interview about an assumed name. ("Ayn Rand" is a pen name. Another interviewee from the law firm says elsewhere in the book that her legal name was Alice O'Connor.) As far as I can tell, most commentaries about this are based on one article that contained several inaccuracies, which they repeat without even looking at the book, hence the lack of specific references. HTH --RL0919 (talk) 23:40, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- So why isn't this information in this article? It seems significant given that Rand spoke out adamantly against government assistance. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 15:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- The appropriateness of including this was covered in detail in previous discussions. The short version is that most reliable biographies of Rand don't mention this at all, and the few that do mention it briefly don't treat it as a point of criticism. So in keeping with Misplaced Pages policy, the article follows their lead. What topics are popular with bloggers does not dictate our article content. --RL0919 (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- I checked my local library's website and the book is there. I'm going to borrow to see if these information is actually included. I also found a Huffington post article citing this information (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-ford/ayn-rand-and-the-vip-dipe_b_792184.html.) Those are not blogging fads. What objections would you (RL0919)or other editors have if the information is included and properly attributed to these sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue Eagle 21063 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
O'Connor was, indeed, her legal last name - so that part is trivia. Misplaced Pages does not make a point of examining doctor bills, and unless reliable sources make a claim, and only to the extent that a claim about Rand is made and with due weight, would this article contain such stuff. Misplaced Pages does not use bloggers and their interesting viewpoints as a source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- The Huffington Post article is a polemical piece so it doesn't really count. I think its very relevant, but it would have to be a reliable source. As I remember its only started to come into conversations recently. Gary Weiss in Ayn Rand Nation p61-62 makes the point explicitly, and critically "Reality had intruded on her ideological pipedreams" is one phrase. Happy to provide the full text if people want, but it is I think enough to include it. ----Snowded 18:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- To user:Collect: Why don't you view Scott McConnel and the "Huffington Post" as reliable sources? To user:Snowded: Please provide the full text you found in "Ayn Rand Nation". Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- Done, if anyone else wants it email me. Misplaced Pages blocks the sites I use for file sharing ----Snowded 05:46, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rumor has it that Rand walked on city streets. Is there a reliable source that can confirm this, too? Jason from nyc (talk) 12:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- She sent letters through the post office as well, and even collected government-issued stamps. And yes that can be confirmed with reliable sources. The real issue isn't whether it is true (at least some of the basic facts), but whether it is significant enough to include in an encyclopedia article. "Retired woman signs up for social insurance program" is on par with "dog bites mailman", so just saying "Rand signed up for Social Security and Medicare" would be a strange thing to include. What makes people interested is the associated criticism. But there are a lot of critical things said about Rand, so in the world of possible criticisms that could be in the article, I'm don't see how something that is only mentioned in one book and a couple of marginal op-eds is even on the radar. --RL0919 (talk) 17:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Registering for health care is a different order of magnitude from using stamps. The source I mentioned is very clear that the implications are that what she advocated in theory she was not prepared to carry out in practice. The book is a reliable source, its a matter of finding the right wording. ----Snowded 18:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- I know what the criticism is. It's wrong (she explicitly advocated accepting benefits if you had paid for them with taxes, so was doing what she said), but a criticism needn't be valid to be included. Rather, my point is that if we include everything about Rand that is in a reliable source, this will be the longest encyclopedia article ever created. There must be some criteria beyond the bare minimum of being in one RS. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- I’m not sure there is any figure on the libertarian-right or among Objectivists who argues that boycotting the state would make it wither away (with perhaps the single exception of Samuel Konkin). Those that oppose government funding of certain services advocate changing the law through the ballot box--not by self-denial (especially if one’s been taxed). Rand had lived in Soviet Russia and yes she used government services. I guess by Snowed’s logic anyone who lived in the USSR and opposed communism must have been a hypocrite. Jason from nyc (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- I know what the criticism is. It's wrong (she explicitly advocated accepting benefits if you had paid for them with taxes, so was doing what she said), but a criticism needn't be valid to be included. Rather, my point is that if we include everything about Rand that is in a reliable source, this will be the longest encyclopedia article ever created. There must be some criteria beyond the bare minimum of being in one RS. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Registering for health care is a different order of magnitude from using stamps. The source I mentioned is very clear that the implications are that what she advocated in theory she was not prepared to carry out in practice. The book is a reliable source, its a matter of finding the right wording. ----Snowded 18:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- She sent letters through the post office as well, and even collected government-issued stamps. And yes that can be confirmed with reliable sources. The real issue isn't whether it is true (at least some of the basic facts), but whether it is significant enough to include in an encyclopedia article. "Retired woman signs up for social insurance program" is on par with "dog bites mailman", so just saying "Rand signed up for Social Security and Medicare" would be a strange thing to include. What makes people interested is the associated criticism. But there are a lot of critical things said about Rand, so in the world of possible criticisms that could be in the article, I'm don't see how something that is only mentioned in one book and a couple of marginal op-eds is even on the radar. --RL0919 (talk) 17:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Rumor has it that Rand walked on city streets. Is there a reliable source that can confirm this, too? Jason from nyc (talk) 12:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Done, if anyone else wants it email me. Misplaced Pages blocks the sites I use for file sharing ----Snowded 05:46, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- To user:Collect: Why don't you view Scott McConnel and the "Huffington Post" as reliable sources? To user:Snowded: Please provide the full text you found in "Ayn Rand Nation". Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Rand accepted Medicare as well as Social Security. Medicare is a form of government assistance. That's a significant departure from her life philosopy. It also demonstrates the impractical nature of her philosophy because even she couldn't follow it. I'm sorry but that's BIG and it comes from a reliable source. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's big in your opinion. But the proper way to edit an article is not to cherry pick a rare source that states what you agree with, but rather to summarize the points that are commonly made across the reliable sources (preferably the best quality of sources as well, if there is a variety available). If it becomes standard for biographies of Rand to dwell on this "significant departure", then it would be appropriate to mention, just as the article discusses other issues that some would rather bury, such as her affair and her amphetamine use. But that isn't the case to date for this particular tidbit. --RL0919 (talk) 04:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- And its small in your opinion. Now can we move on from silly comparisons and discuss the issue. Weiss is a significant author and his book one of the few to reflect on Rand's overall influence and position rather than being a biog. The source explicitly makes the point that her philosophy was not borne our in practice when she faced hard choices. There is no wikipedia requirement to have something appear in multiple sources over time to be relevant; this is especially so as this issue has only recently gained currency. A simple phrase to the effect that she did register, and add commentary (Weiss has argued ...) would seem reasonable. ----Snowded 08:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- RL0919: Your arguments for keeping this informaiton out of the article strike me as specious. Once I get my copy of "100 Voices" I'm going to edit the article to point out Rand received Medicare and Social Security. However, I'll be careful to attribute it to Scott McConnel. I'm curious to see how this plays out. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- Snowded, in a thread above you have argued that it might be undue weight to use a single word ('philosopher') to describe Rand, even though there are dozens of reliable sources that do this, including a number of peer-reviewed scholarly works. But in this thread you seem to be supporting the inclusion of multiple sentences to convey a criticism found in a much smaller number of sources of lower quality. I'm curious to understand how you reconcile these two positions. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- The question of if she is or is not a philosopher has been around for a long time and you would expect here to be so designated in any major encyclopaedia etc. which she is not, that as I said is an issue of Misplaced Pages policy. As it happens, as as you have relied on, Misplaced Pages policy does not allow that sort of issue to be taken into account as it does not deal with negative evidence seeing that as original research. So on policy ground your unwillingness to see a reference to her evident hypocrisy does that stand. That aside, this issue has only recently emerged as an issue and I have referenced one of the first commentaries to pick up on it. Its properly sourced and relevant. ----Snowded 05:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- That Rand applied for Social Security has been sourceable since at least 2004. What is new is the criticism based on it. In the circumstances, to be "one of the first" reliable sources raising this criticism really means "one of the only" -- any thought that this will become commonly discussed in future sources is just speculation. We work with the sources that exist in the present. The question of due weight applies here, just as you have raised it regarding the "philosopher" question. The difference between the two situations is simple: there are a bunch of reliable sources that call Rand a philosopher (I can cite over a dozen without breaking a sweat), including articles in respected newspapers, peer-reviewed academic books, encyclopedias, etc. In contrast, the reliable sources criticizing Rand over her use of retirement benefits are one polemical book and a couple of disputably-"reliable" online opinion pieces. So the former don't suffice in your opinion, but the latter do? That seems a bit out-of-balance. --RL0919 (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- You really don't like this one do you? I've made my point on "philosopher" that I think wikipedia policy is wrong but I have to abide by it. Now get that one out of your system please. Here we have a "fact" about her life that is considered evidence of hypocrisy in a reliable source. That is more than enough for a mention in the main body of the article. The book in question is not polemical, it is a considered piece based on a fair amount to research, including interviews with some of Rand's inner circle. If there is additional material in 100 sources then we should attempt any entry based on both sources, but the one I mention is enough. If someone else doesn't get there first I will attempt to amend the article with the material this week. ----Snowded 22:31, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- That Rand applied for Social Security has been sourceable since at least 2004. What is new is the criticism based on it. In the circumstances, to be "one of the first" reliable sources raising this criticism really means "one of the only" -- any thought that this will become commonly discussed in future sources is just speculation. We work with the sources that exist in the present. The question of due weight applies here, just as you have raised it regarding the "philosopher" question. The difference between the two situations is simple: there are a bunch of reliable sources that call Rand a philosopher (I can cite over a dozen without breaking a sweat), including articles in respected newspapers, peer-reviewed academic books, encyclopedias, etc. In contrast, the reliable sources criticizing Rand over her use of retirement benefits are one polemical book and a couple of disputably-"reliable" online opinion pieces. So the former don't suffice in your opinion, but the latter do? That seems a bit out-of-balance. --RL0919 (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- The question of if she is or is not a philosopher has been around for a long time and you would expect here to be so designated in any major encyclopaedia etc. which she is not, that as I said is an issue of Misplaced Pages policy. As it happens, as as you have relied on, Misplaced Pages policy does not allow that sort of issue to be taken into account as it does not deal with negative evidence seeing that as original research. So on policy ground your unwillingness to see a reference to her evident hypocrisy does that stand. That aside, this issue has only recently emerged as an issue and I have referenced one of the first commentaries to pick up on it. Its properly sourced and relevant. ----Snowded 05:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Snowded, in a thread above you have argued that it might be undue weight to use a single word ('philosopher') to describe Rand, even though there are dozens of reliable sources that do this, including a number of peer-reviewed scholarly works. But in this thread you seem to be supporting the inclusion of multiple sentences to convey a criticism found in a much smaller number of sources of lower quality. I'm curious to understand how you reconcile these two positions. --RL0919 (talk) 18:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- RL0919: Your arguments for keeping this informaiton out of the article strike me as specious. Once I get my copy of "100 Voices" I'm going to edit the article to point out Rand received Medicare and Social Security. However, I'll be careful to attribute it to Scott McConnel. I'm curious to see how this plays out. Blue Eagle 21063 (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- And its small in your opinion. Now can we move on from silly comparisons and discuss the issue. Weiss is a significant author and his book one of the few to reflect on Rand's overall influence and position rather than being a biog. The source explicitly makes the point that her philosophy was not borne our in practice when she faced hard choices. There is no wikipedia requirement to have something appear in multiple sources over time to be relevant; this is especially so as this issue has only recently gained currency. A simple phrase to the effect that she did register, and add commentary (Weiss has argued ...) would seem reasonable. ----Snowded 08:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
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