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wikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.Timeline
This article will be in a state of some flux for a while. I'll move material in the existing lead into a text (rather than table) timeline format. Although this is part of a wider affair involving the HSU, it appears more and more likely that it is Craig Thomson's part which will prove more important in a political sense, given the need to convince the other independents to support him. We also need a current event note on the top - I'll dig one up in a moment. --Pete (talk) 23:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC) So tempted to use the "current disaster" template! Which is what it is for the whole nation, really, given that it strikes deep into the heart of worker collective representation, not to mention the ongoing crisis of confidence in Parliament. --Pete (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC) I have "timelined" the material ported over from the CT article. The next step is to look at the FWA report, which has extremely detailed descriptions and documents on the relevant events. Following this, I shall add in the events of the past few days, which continue the spate of front page stories. --Pete (talk) 01:04, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Peter. There was a problem with the citation for April 6, 2009. I wasn't sure what that source you were trying to cite was but it was showing as an error in the ref list. The date is mentioned in the Nassios report so I just changed the cite to that for now. Feel free to change it to whatever you want. Also, at the end of the sentence under 26 March 2010, there's a "(43)"...I had no idea what that meant. Cheers, Sarah 13:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Page 43 of the report. It would be handy if I could just use one ref and qualify it inline by the page number - the chronology in the report goes for over 40 pages!!! Thanks for the help, I'm working on this but it's a little daunting given the wealth of material, the changing status and the massive media interest and opinions. But it's important to tell the story accurately as a ready reference. --Pete (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Fair Work Australia report
I'm moving steadily through the report. It's kind of depressing, reading it. Nassios has identified a great number of specific failings of Craig Thomson, rather than the most sensational reported in the media, such as payments for travel for non-HSU members, or payments to football clubs, or train hire which go well beyond his approval to spend money on general administration, or failure to manage the union office efficiently. When pressed by Nassios, Thomson fails to give any specific responses, provide details or identify individuals. Nassios, in comparison, provides forensic details. Pages of them. Chapters and annexes of lists and amounts and dates. Thomson promises reports and investigations which never eventuate. There's no oversight or approval for hundreds of thousands of dollars of expenditure and he just runs the finances into the ground. It's appalling.
However, I'm sticking to events and statements which are identifiable both in the report and in media reports. This is not an article on the FWA report, or Craig Thomson in general, but on the political scandal, and on that point there seems to be a lot of media opinion (and from labor insiders) that this if it doesn't sink Gillard entirely, will be a serious iceberg to deal with.
As for writing the article, there is a huge variety of major news stories to use as sources. This isn't some scuffle of infighting in some minor union, this is seen by the media as a big thing, and it has generated front page stories for three years now. This is already a Watergate-level scandal. --Pete (talk) 04:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Response to Parliament
I watched the speech and found it carefully crafted, based around the legitimate concept that depriving the voters of an electorate of their representation without some due process would be improper. The pressure on he and his family is undoubtedly heavy, but I think it a bit unfair to blame media and Opposition for events that occurred entirely within the union and ALP before he entered Parliament. He spent comparatively little time on the specific allegations and provided few details. I think that they were pretty much all denied or refuted before the day was out. I was particularly struck by his claim that photo-id would not be specifically recorded, and yet this is exactly what occurs in brothels and escort agencies. Merridy Eastman, in her book There's a Bear in There (and He Wants Swedish), describes the process of checking photo-ID and recording it (in green ink, no less), while Andrew Bolt prints excerpts from the bank's operating manual which instructs users to check ID and record the details. It is standard practice. Bolt also highlights three examples of calls to escort agencies made from rooms where Thomson only booked the one room for himself, rather than the block bookings he claims he made. The political impact of the speech in the context of this article on the affair is two-fold - he (and Gillard) survived the day, but the production of details that can be checked stirs the "Inspector Clouseaus" of the press gallery into further action and further front page news stories, which naturally increases the impact on the saga and this article. --Pete (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC) "I watched the speech too, and noted he gave what was a confession on some issues. He didn't directly state it, but he highlighted that the union was a mess before he assumed office and he worked to improve things. It may be inferred he did not improve them enough, but that is a defence and a confession. One does not know how it will end, but it is clear that he is under intense pressure and his 'support' from the ALP is not benefitting him. DDB (talk) 11:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Anyone who seriously suggests using Andrew Bolt as a reliable source is unfit to edit this article; there are numerous distortions of fact already present in this article, which violates Misplaced Pages BLP. For example, the Misplaced Pages editor who wrote that Thomson was 'forced out' of the ALP, when the ABC article referenced by the editor clearly states that Thomson's ALP membership was 'suspended', and that Thomson himself requested for his membership to be suspended. 121.216.230.139 (talk)
- The issue is sensitive at the moment, and subject to BLP protocols. We should source everything. I'd like to see a balanced coverage on this, consistent with NPOV. Removing sources because you don't agree with them is not the best course of action here - we have an absolute smorgasbord of sources and if an editor feels that one view is predominating, add one from a different point of view. However, I strongly caution against using blogs as sources when we have mainstream media sources. Unless there is a good reason to use a minor source, such as the one publishing an email from Craig Thomson stating that he was "very happy" with the settlement. There currently seem to be about four POVs in general currency - that of the ALP, Coalition, media and Craig Thomson. We're not here to crucify the guy, nor whitewash him, but to tell the story of the political scandal which is filling the front pages. I might note that according to the various online polls, the percentage of respondents supporting/believing Craig Thomson is about 10%, so he's very much an extreme or fringe POV here.
- What's the significance of the "Thompson/Thomson" spelling? Thomson himself isn't disputing that it was his credit card being used, presumably the issuer misspelt his name, which seems to be an extremely common error. --Pete (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Looking at the two Andrew Bolt articles to which the anon editor above takes such exception to, one of them consists almost entirely of Thomson's misleading email to Labor colleagues, in which he claims he was "very happy" with "settlements" of defamation actions launched against HSU and Fairfax. In point of fact he withdrew both claims after considerable legal expense and received no money, no retraction, no apology. Fairfax continued to print the allegations against Thomson on the basis that they were factual and was borne out by the Fair Work Australia report. This is critical to what makes this affair a political scandal - the Sydney Morning Herald printed some damning allegations, the story became front page news and Thomson's bluster and the ALP's attempts to hose the thing down add to the general interest, providing the twin elements of personal involvement, with Craig Thomson and his troubles one focus, and the survival of the unpopular Gillard government the other.
- The second Bolt article rebuts claims made in Thomson's speech to Parliament, contrasting Thomson's statements with the evidence provided by Fair Work Australia and others. While Thomson's speech was made under Parliamentary privilege (and has itself spawned yet another inquiry), it is not exempt from scrutiny and rebuttal.
- While BLP must be observed, and any unsourced negative information swiftly removed, this does not apply to sourced statements. NPOV provides for presentation of diverse and contradictory views, and we may certainly give any views in support of Thomson due prominence. However, with public credibility in Thomson's statements running at 5-10%, his views should be treated as a minority or fringe opinion.
- Regarding the wording of how Thomson came to leave the ALP, there is a conflict here. A great many sources state that he was "forced out of the ALP", or that Prime Minister Gillard "dumped" Thomson. Thomson claims he stood aside voluntarily, while Gillard claims it was her decision. Given that the PM has announced that Thomson will not be the ALP candidate for Dobell at the next election, we may again give due credence to the conflicting claims.
- I appreciate that the Thomson affair is a major ongoing political scandal and that Thomson himself is being treated as a political football by competing interests, but removing reliable sources is not the way to report on the affair. We should use sources to present all sides, and if an editor is upset by the material provided by one good source, find another that provides a different view. We have an enormous range of sources at the moment. --Pete (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)